Post #SourceDatesAuthorPost
#1SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Malan
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I


Please do not send me private messages unless you have found an error in this post or have a suggestion for an update. Do not ask me to a) rank your armory, b) read your WWS parse, c) validate some weird ass theory you have, or d) provide you "maths" to prove something. I have neither time, nor interest, in pretty much anything you're going to PM me about.

If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post and use the search tool before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked has been answered. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.


An Enhancement Shaman is an integral part of any melee group. Besides offering substantial personal DPS, an Enhancement Shaman brings group specific buffs through talents beyond those offered by a Resto Shaman. These include Unleashed Rage (an on-crit proc for 10% additional melee AP), Strength of Earth (+97 STR) Windfury (20% proc instant attack with extra AP), and Grace of Air (+88 AGI). Enhancement shamans are equally useful in a main tank group, offering increased dodge and armor, or increased threat generation.

An Enhancement Shaman is not a melee healer. While many will have a resto sub-spec and can certainly help top off a group after an AoE or step in to prevent an emergency, their gear's focus on melee stats makes them unsuitable healers in the endgame. An Enhancement Shaman should be dedicated to DPS, maximizing Unleashed Rage and totem coverage for his group.

Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:
  • Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
  • Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
  • Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
  • Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage
The vast majority (75-80%) of a shaman's damage comes from autoattack and Windfury. Shamans also have three on-crit procs: the aforementioned UR, Flurry (3 attacks at +30% speed) and a special clearcasting state for shocks.

Enhancement shaman are highly gear dependent, perhaps more so than any other DPS class. The 'skill' required to be effective at the class manifests in proper gear selection prior to combat; during combat the amount of 'skill' to produce respectable DPS consists mainly of staying in contact with the mob and maintaining totem coverage. This gives an Enhancement Shaman a great deal of latitude while DPSing since there are a limited number of actions that we can perform while waiting on Stormstrike and Shock cooldowns, allowing many possible global cooldowns to be used for purging mobs or removing poison/disease debuffs with no interruption of the DPS cycle.

Things we know about patch 2.4
(Or, Don't post this stuff again because we've already seen it)
  • Totem UI allows individual totems to be destroyed, and is accessible through the API for macros/mods.
  • Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons.
  • [Mounting Vengeance], drops off Sunwell trash, is the 2.4 Best in Slot OH weapon.
  • Ghost wolf will be insta-cast if you max the T2 talent (alternate place to spend the 2 pts in Anticipation)
  • The T6 belt/boots/bracers have had all stamina removed and replaced with Expertise. We will be able to cap expertise using these 3 items and the Shard of Contempt.
  • [Shard of Contempt] from heroic Magister's Terrace will be as good, or better than, the DST.
  • Shamanistic Rage in the latest build is no longer a magic effect and isn't dispellable
  • Stamina added back to the T6 belt/boots/bracers, they still have expertise

Contents
1 Major Abilities
1.1 Windfury Weapon
1.1.1 Weapon Speed Interaction
1.1.2 Windfury Proc Rate
1.1.3 Can Windfury Totem avoid the cooldown problem?
1.2 Flametongue and Frostband Viability?
1.3 Stormstrike
1.4 Elemental Shocks
2 Talent Builds
2.2 The Myth of Elemental Devastation
3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman
3.1 Enhancement Points (EP) Stat Weight System
3.1.1 Using EP - Examples
3.1.2 Hit Rating
3.1.3 Haste Rating
3.1.4 Intellect and Mp5
3.1.5 Expertise Rating
3.2 Weapons
3.2.1 Main Hand
3.2.2 Off Hand
3.2.3 TwoHand Viability
3.3 Relics
3.4 Gems and Meta Gems
3.5 Trinkets
3.6 Enchanting your Gear
3.6.1 Weapon Enchants
3.6.2 Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
3.7 Consumables
4 Enhancement Shaman in a group
4.1 How to choose totems
4.1.1 Totem Twisting
4.2 Managing your threat
5 Notes for Raid Leaders
5.1 Group compositions that work
5.2 Evaluating with WoW Web Stats
6 Simulations
7 Useful Links and Addons
8 Changelog


1. Major Abilities
1.1 Windfury Weapon
Windfury Weapon was corrected in the 2.1 patch link Windfury on the main and off hands. At some point prior to that, a hidden/internal 3 second cooldown had been added to Windfury Weapon. As a result, OH procs now (correctly) trigger the cooldown on the MH. Despite this set back to shaman DPS (net loss of about 10-15% DPS for enhancement shaman), Windfury Weapon is still the best weapon imbue to use – former CM Tseric has stated that the devs have no plans to scale the other weapon buffs to match Windfury. [footnote]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=102731970&pageNo=1&sid=1#0[/footnote]

1.1.1 Weapon Speed Interaction
Weapon Speeds play an important role in maximizing DPS from Windfury procs. The goal is to chain WF procs every 3 seconds, as soon as each cooldown ends. Both the OH and the MH need to be as slow as possible to achieve this(they do not need to be matched in speed, just as slow as you can get it). The idea is to reduce the number of swings made during the time that windfury is on cooldown. Since the cooldown is 3 seconds, weapons speeds are preferred to be close to that speed, generally this means 2.6 - 2.8 under current itemization. The idea is that a faster weapon would proc a WF, and then strike again within the cooldown window, which means that windfury would exit cooldown and your weapon would still be on some significant portion of its swing timer, unable to proc another WF.

Many shaman will correctly use a slow MH weapon but use a fast OH such as a dagger, generally because its easier to find fast OHs than slow ones. This combination however means that your OH is much more likely to be the first one to hit outside of a WF cooldown and will "steal" the potential chance to proc, placing your main hand on lockdown. In order to maximize the potential for MH procs the OH needs to be as slow as possible.

The image below courtesy of Yo! illustrates this principle. You can see that as the MH and OH approach 2.6 speed (arbitrarily chosen as the cut off point for the scale) that the number of WF procs lost to the OH become lower, at around a 45% predicted loss rate. A fast OH with a slow MH combination has a higher rate of loss to the OH, at nearly 55%.


1.1.2 Windfury Proc Rate
When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%, if and only if both weapons are imbued with Windfury. (Original findings were posted on the WoW forums by Disquette, the thread has been removed from the official archives)

Analysis of the combat log shows that if you sum all hits, the proc rate while DWing is 20%, but that includes hits you make while inside the 3 second cooldown, which cannot actually proc WF. When you remove the ineligible hits the observed proc rate from the eligible hits becomes 36%.

1.1.3 Can Windfury Totem avoid the cooldown problem?
While you may ~think~ it will help you avoid the WF cooldown problem, the totem isn't providing anywhere near the benefit you'll get from the weapon imbue.
WF Totem has the following issues: no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple), only one extra attack (200% multiple), lesser AP bonus (scalar). Each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR. Each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.

1.2 Flametongue and Frostband Viability?
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1.3 Stormstrike
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1.4 Elemental Shocks
There are 2 possible rotations that an Enhancement shaman can use. Initially most shaman will assume that with the Stormstrike nature damage bonus Earth Shock spam will yield more DPS. However, Earth Shock is a binary spell and is susceptible to full resists, whereas Flame Shock has no binary component and will benefit from partial resist rates due to spell hit. Additionally, Flame Shock benefits from Curse of Elements and the Improved Scorch Debuff, while Earth Shock is only amplified by Stormstrike. (Both benefit from Misery)

In determining the ideal rotation, let us assume a sandbox environment with no crits and no resists to worry about. The mob will be fully raid debuffed with CoE and Malediction, Misery, and Improved Scorch Debuff. Assume that Earth Shock always has the benefit of Stormstrike, and that the Enhance Shaman in question has 2500 Attack Power, yielding 750 spell damage (approximate) with the Mental Quickness talent. Earth Shock has a spell damage coefficient of 0.42 and Flame Shock has a coefficient of 0.67.

Earth Shock Spam
This is a 6 second cycle.
\frac {0.42 \times 750 + 675}{6} \times 1.26 = 207.9

Flame - Earth Rotation
This is a 12 second cycle that begins with Flame Shock.
\left (\frac{0.67 \times 750 + 797}{12} \times 1.36\right) + \left (\frac {0.42 \times 750 + 675}{12} \times 1.26 \right ) = 355.2

While a single earth shock in 6 seconds is worth more than a single flame shock that is allowed to go its full 12 second DoT, the combination of the two in a single, 12 second rotation, provides superior DPS.

Finally as a third point of comparison, let us compare Earth Shock to Flame Shock directly, using only 6 seconds of the DoT component of Flame Shock. Earth Shock was computed above as providing 207.9 DPS every 6 seconds.
\frac {0.67 \times 750 + (377 + 0.5(420))}{6} \times 1.36 = 246.9
Therefore, you can see that Flame Shock over a 6 second period provides more DPS than Earth Shock.

2 Talent Builds
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2.1 Elemental or Resto sub-spec
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2.2 The Myth of Elemental Devastation
One of the more prevalent suggestions is that Enhance Shaman should optimize their DPS by speccing into Elemental for a 5 second shock cooldown, 5% increased shock damage, and of course the Elemental Devastation Talent, typically achieved by removing points from Mental Quickness and/or Improved Weapon Totems for an 18/43/0 build.

The logic of this build is fundamentally flawed. A properly geared Enhancement Shaman will have at most a 6% spell crit rate from Intellect. Under perfect conditions this will amount to a 1% crit gain from Elemental Devastation. Under not-so-perfect conditions, this talent would be negligible and worthless to an Enhancement shaman.
The probability of getting 2 crit shocks in a row at 6% spell crit, in order to sustain the extra melee crit bonus of Elemental Devastation, is 1-(1- 0.6)^2 = 0.118. That's about 12% uptime of an extra 1% crit from 3 talent points.

3. Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman
3.1 Enhancement Points (EP) Stat Weight System
Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Disquette, Pater, Tornhoof, and Yo! have led to the development of a system for determining the items which produce the highest DPS in a raid environment. The Enhancement Points (EP) system assigns weights or scores to each stat point. These EP weights can then be used by hand or in automated programs such as Enhancer, Pawn, LootRank and Thottbot to score items. Today, the best tool for determining these weights is to use the Crazy Shaman's DPS & EP Calculator produced by forums member Yo! For those who cannot run the simulator, are unwilling to do the legwork, or just want to check their own numbers, the following sets of EP values are provided:

Entry Raid (T4) EP Values
If you have just hit level 70 or have been running some heroics for a while but have not started raiding KZ and 25 mans yet, your EP stat weights will be significantly different from shamans wearing high-end gear. Use these values until you have progressed into SSC/TK beyond the first 1-2 bosses. These values were arrived at using simulation of a shaman wearing best of slot quest and instance blues, with some heroic loot. Buffs were limited to what a 10 man raid would normally have - no Kings, no LotP, no flasks, and assumed lower quality gems and enchants.

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP
Agility = 1.74 EP
Crit Rating = 1.97 EP
Hit Rating = 1.34 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.28 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.22 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation

Middle Raid (T5) EP Values
These values are a generally agreed-upon set produced by the average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations across the breadth of shaman gearing possibilities. They rapidly become less accurate as you accumulate more pieces of T5-level gear. As such, using Yo's simulator to obtain individualized EP numbers is strongly advised. Note that Blessing of Kings increases the contribution of Strength and Agility by 10% and thus their EPs when it is active.

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation

High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)

Weapon DPS EP Values
Pitbuller and Rob have shown that it is possible to convert weapon DPS into EP values. This is useful to compute the total EP of a weapon in order to compare two weapons, as seen in this post (link to where you or someone compared Netherbane to MG Cleaver). The following values are only valid for a 2.6 speed weapon. EP would need to be recalculated for any other speeds. These are presented here because 2.6 is the most common speed for weapons.

1 MH DPS = 9.03 EP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP

Careful! Only use these numbers for comparing weapons; do not use them for drawing other conclusions. For example, these numbers do not mean that 9 AP = 1 DPS for enhancement shamans. Why? Note the distinction between EP and AP. 9 AP will in fact increase your DPS by more than 1; just as 1 weapon DPS will increase your overall DPS by more than 1. To understand why, imagine that 1 weapon DPS increases your DPS by exactly 1 after glances, misses, dodges, and crits are accounted for. Now throw in Flurry, WF procs, and Stormstrike and realize that the weapon is hitting more often than the tooltip says it is, so you gain more DPS from the nominal weapon DPS.
3.1.1 Using EP - Examples
First, you must make a decision whether or not to assume that you will have Blessing of Kings. As a general rule, Salvation and Might are superior buffs, so you can only expect Kings in a 25-man scenario. In this example, we’re comparing 25-man gear, so we’ll assume Blessing of Kings is active and use the T5 EP Values. Then, it’s a simple matter of looking at the stats available on each item, multiplying them by their attack power equivalence, and adding them all up:

[Valestalker Girdle]
+27 Agility (x 2 = 54)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36 (x 1.4 = 50.4)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76 (x 1 = 76)
Total: 180.4 EP

[Girdle of the Tidal Call]
+35 Strength (x 2.2 = 77)
+30 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 33 (x 2 = 66)
Total: 143 EP

So, Valestalker Girdle (180.4 EP) is a larger increase to melee DPS than Girdle of Tidal Call (143 EP); for our purposes, we’ll say that makes it a better item. Note that values are not assigned here to Stamina or Intellect; these stats do carry some value for raiding enhancement shamans, but any assignment of value to them would be arbitrary and is for each individual shaman to decide on her own.

Now lets compare two weapons using the weapon EP values.
[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]
97.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 880.4) (OH: x3.70 = 360.75)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. (x1.4 = 14)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x2 = 38)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30. (x1 = 30)
Total MH EP = 962.4
Total OH EP = 442.75

[Netherbane]
96.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 871.4) (OH: x3.7 = 357)
+25 Agility (x2 = 50)
+21 Stamina
Equip: Increases attack power by 40. (x1 = 40)
Total MH EP = 961.4
Total OH EP = 447.05

Comparing the two weapons we can see that the difference in the MH for each weapon is relatively minor with a 1 EP difference, but in the OH the Netherbane performs better with a 5 EP difference.

3.1.2 Hit Rating
Hit Rating is a subject of much anxiety among Enhancement Shaman. Hit Rating is valuable, but beyond hit capping your special attacks it provides less benefit per point to our damage than an equivalent item budget amount of AP, Crit, Haste, or Expertise.

Since we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 40%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence. Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

A common misconception is that you "have to hit before you can crit." This is a fallacy and illustrates a misunderstanding of the attack table. (Note that this is in reference to white damage which uses a single roll system.) Your Hit Rating will not impact your Crit Rate in any way.

A second misconception is that a miss is a "missed opportunity for a WF proc" and that more Hit Rating will generate more WF procs. This misconception is generated from the flawed assumption that all swings are possible WF procs. However only swings that are outside of the WF cooldown are eligible to proc WF. A good portion of your autoattack hits will never be capable of producing WF procs. A 5 minute fight with no flurry would see 115 white swings with a 2.6 speed weapon. A Shaman might look at that and think that 0.36 * 115 = 41 possible WF procs, but that is incorrect since each successful proc locks out 1-2 hits that follow, shrinking the pool of actual eligible hits. It is actually quite difficult to calculate the number of attacks that you *should* have producing WF in a given amount of time, and that is why we rely on simulators to generate the EP value of Hit Rating.

There is no magic value of +Hit that an Enhance Shaman needs We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others. That does not mean that the goal is to have low hit rating either though. Rogues and Warriors require large amounts of +Hit to be effective because of their rage and combo point systems, and because they do not have talents that can hit cap their specials before considering hit on gear. Enhance shaman have no such feedback system and are able to hit cap specials through talents - therefore, hit rating above and beyond your talents is great to have, but is not a necessity.

3.1.3 Haste Rating
Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS. Prior to patch 2.2 Haste Rating became the superior stat, but the 2.3 patch reduced its EP value closer to that of Hit Rating.

Modeling at one time indicated weapons hasted between 1.51 and 1.41 speed will actually experience a sharp decrease in potential Windfury DPS. The range of 1.51- 1.41 speed was believed to cause the main hand to always finish a swing just before the end of a WF cooldown, making you wait longer for the next eligible swing that can proc WF. If hasted in this period for a long duration, you could expect WF DPS contribution to decrease. However, you'll also experience many more white swings during that time, and so the loss of potential WF procs should be offset by the increased white DPS. It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.

3.1.4 Intellect and Mp5
Intellect on gear is not a significant source of DPS contribution. Pater has a short writeup exploring this here.
Mp5 is almost universally agreed to be a hunter stat that is wasted on enhance shaman gear. Note that the more you decide to contribute in a "hybrid" manner (healing to top off yourself and others) the mana pool will become slightly more important, but not such that you should sacrifice significant DPS upgrades to hold on to 15 Int on another item. The combination of Judgment of Wisdom and Shamanistic Rage (use it early, use it often) should prevent you from running out of mana even in full rogue leather gear - unless you're having to spot heal.

3.1.5 Expertise Rating
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 10 expertise rating (all weapons).

The parry reduction element of Expertise will have only marginal use in raid settings: mobs cannot parry attacks made from behind. Many bosses randomly turn to cast attacks and can parry while turning, but this possibility is too random to value significantly. Unlike parry, mobs can dodge attacks from behind and Expertise is currently the only way to reduce the number of dodges. The dodge reduction element of Expertise will vary from encounter to encounter: it will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian, Reliquary of Souls) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Expertise has been shown to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, so under the second circumstance it is actually more useful than hit rating for enhancement shamans.

We still don't know how Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll white attack table. For now, the community is assuming that it converts dodges and parries into hits that do not have a chance to crit. On the other hand, we are now confident that Expertise will allow yellow attacks to crit, since they are resolved through a two-roll system. Thus, we will estimate expertise rating to be similar to the weight of hit rating, with some exceptions.

First, expertise rating is only useful in chunks, because there is no concept of having 2.5 Expertise - the Skill values are all rounded down to whole integers. To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again. This gives you a "white hit rating" equivalency. Note that this makes expertise rating EP discontinuous. One expertise rating may be worth 0 EP because it is not enough to give you an extra skill point -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating -- while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have a surprisingly high EP -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction.

Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. Finally, we must multiply by the EP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into EP.

Our final expertise calculation is:
EP =  \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {\text {Yellow\%} \times (1 + \text{Crit\%}) + \text{White\%}}{\text {White\%}} \times \text {Hit EP}

Example Calculation:
Assume that we are examining a new piece of gear that will bring our total Expertise Rating to 17, Hit EP is 1.4, Crit% is 30%, White% of DPS is 50%, Yellow% of DPS is 40% and the remaining 10% is shocks and searing totem.

Expertise EP = \lfloor \frac {17}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {40 \times 1.30 + 50}{50} \times 1.4
Expertise EP = 45.12
Note that this value is not the EP stat weight of Expertise Rating, it is the total sum worth of the Expertise Rating on all your gear.
3.2 Weapons
Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes little difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.

3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Orcs should prioritize axes for the +5 Expertise racial bonus. This is believed to be applied per hand non stacking, so an axe/mace combo only applies expertise to the axe, and an axe/axe combo would apply 5 Expertise to each hand.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

3.2.2Off Hand
OH itemization is fairly poor early on, but recent changes in patch 2.3 have added several new options in KZ and ZA that will help fill the gaps. If you are not yet raiding, the best choices for OH in a WF/WF setup is a 2.6 speed Gladiator weapon from Arenas, a crafted Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) or a blue one-hand weapon available in several heroic instances (Auchenai Crypts last boss drops a 2.6 speed one-hand axe). Failing that, get yourself a green 2.6 speed off the Auction House.

An epic dagger with high dps (such as [Malchazeen] or [Guile of Khoraazi])and imbued with Flametongue can be used to temporarily replace a green or blue OH weapon. This comes at the cost of reduced Windfury procs, reduced Stormstrike damage, and a reduction in Flurry uptime. This should be seen as a stopgap measure only, not a weapon that you should commit to using for long periods of time.

Current best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]).
A [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] comprise the 2nd best options available.
Rounding out the list are [Netherbane] or [Fury] as your third choice options.

3.2.3 TwoHand Viability
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations, and reasonably poor for PvP as well. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. 9% +Hit while DWing through a 0/42/19 build allows all special attacks to be hit capped through talents alone, while a 2H will only receive 3% of the hit benefit. DW also scales better with AP. 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. The more +hit you have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base DPS of a 2H weapon over similar ilevel 1H weapons.

The second largest benefit you bring to your group is Unleashed Rage, and your Flurry and UR uptime will take a large hit from using a 2H, as strings of dodge/miss/non crits become compounded by a single, slower swing time. Threat concerns are even more problematic with a 2H because of large WF procs, requiring that you heavily pad your threat against a tank.

And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.

To illustrate:

Note the differences here. 2H has a higher flurry uptime because DWing will consume the 3 charges faster, but the Uptime for UR is much higher for DW than 2H, leading to greater group synergy.

Derivation of the Unleashed Rage uptime:
UR Uptime = \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns}}{\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns}}{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry}))) \times \text {Windfury} + 1}

Windfury = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

Flurry Uptime = \left (1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})

3.3 Relics
The two best choices are [Totem of the Astral Winds] and [Stonebreaker's Totem]

A: Astral Winds EP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker EP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
B1: Stonebreaker EP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker EP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker EP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595
(This breakdown is conservatively in favor of the Astral Winds Totem. Many WWS parses from raids show the balance slightly shifted away from WF towards white swings)

A: 32
B1: 44
B2: 13
B3: 65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
32 = Uptime * (44 + 13 + [ 65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Let Missrate = 19%
Then Uptime = 29%

As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 29%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 26.4%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.

Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.

(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)

(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3

This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown.

3.4 Gems and Meta Gems
In general, [Bold Living Ruby] should fill every socket unless there is a socket bonus that does not require using a Blue gem color, and where the socket bonus is worth more EP than what the loss of the dps stats on the blue gem would be.

If you are matching gems for socket bonuses, use the following:
Red socket: [Bold Living Ruby].
Yellow socket:[Inscribed Noble Topaz].
Blue socket: [Sovereign Nightseye].

The [Rigid Dawnstone] is always the wrong answer for enhance shaman.
The [Bold Living Ruby] will always be better then [Bright Living Ruby] in a raid environment due to Blessing of Kings.

Naturally the epic BT/Hyjal versions of these gems follow the same logic and you should be able to extrapolate which gems to use.

[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond], Best choice for a meta gem. This gem will scale with your crit rating. The 3% crit damage can be roughly approximated to raise your DPS by 0.03 * Crit Rate. At 30% crit rate this amounts to nearly a 1% gain in damage dealt.

[Thundering Skyfire Diamond] gives 240 haste rating for 6 seconds. This is your second choice for meta gems as it appears to have a 1 minute cooldown. Shaman with lower crit rates (20% or lower, geared in heroic/blue gear, just starting 25mans and KZ) will benefit slightly more from this gem over the RED.

[Swift Skyfire Diamond] will yield a very minor DPS increase - same for [Potent Unstable Diamond]

3.5 Trinkets
Trinket gains are converted using the EP formulas above in the itemization stat weights from above, and listed as greatest EP at the top.
  • [Dragonspine Trophy] 160.25 EP = ( 40 + ( 325 * HasteRating * 10 * 1.5 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 1.5 PPM
  • [Berserker's Call] New drop from Zul'Aman. 150 EP = 90 + ( 360 * 20 / 120)
  • [Madness of the Betrayer] 142 EP = ( 84 + ( 20 * HitRating ) + ( 2.4 * 10 / 60 * 300 * ArmorPenetration ))
    Using 2.4 PPM (see here) the uptime is 40% giving a passive -120 Armor
  • [Tsunami Talisman] 141 EP = (( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 38 * CritRating ) + ( 340 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 0.9 PPM
  • [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] 137.5 EP = ( 275 * 10 * 0.5 / 10 )
    Corrected in patch 2.3 to have the listed 50% proc rate, and observed at this rate on the PTR.
  • [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 EP
    At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the EP might be considered less valuable.
  • [Bloodlust Brooch] 118.3 EP = ( 72 + ( 278 * 20 / 120 ))
  • [Hourglass of the Unraveller] 109 EP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 0.9 PPM
  • [Abacus of Violent Odds] 96 EP = ( 64 + ( 260 * HasteRating * 10 / 120 ))
  • [Drake Fang Talisman] 84 EP = ( 56 + ( 20 * HitRating ))
  • [Kiss of the Spider] 79 EP = (( 14 * CritRating ) + ( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 200 * HasteRating * 15 / 120 ))
  • [Romulo's Poison Vial] 49 EP = ( 35 * HitRating )
    And some unknown value from the nature damage proc, which is usually 1-2% of your damage. Unless you're totally starved for +Hit this probably isn't a trinket for shaman. Especially as you become better geared the proc will become less and less of your total damage done since it cannot scale with your gear. This trinket was most certainly designed with warriors and rogues in mind, not shaman.
  • [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] The value of this card is low once your buffed crit rate is 30% or higher.

3.6 Enchanting your Gear
3.6.1 Weapon Enchants
[Enchant Weapon - Mongoose] 4.8% crit per proc (double procs stack) and 2% haste.
[Enchant Weapon - Crusader] provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency] is a constant +20 Strength (40 AP).

Clearly Mongoose is the preferred enchant, although Crusader can be a cheaper, but still effective alternative. Potency should be completely avoided.

[Enchant Weapon - Executioner] is roughly equivalent at high T5/T6 levels of gearing to a single enchant of Mongoose. However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.

Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended, since this deviates from how other weapon enchants function. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable.

Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%

3.6.2 Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
For PvE, either [Formula: Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Formula: Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Derivation:
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.
So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
Asked often enough that it ends up needing its own section. These are the enchants contributing the most to DPS. Stength is always preferred over AP due to the effects of BoK.

Helm - Glyph of Ferocity (34 AP, 16 Hit)
Shoulders - Greater Inscription of the Blade (15 Crit, 20 AP) or Greater Inscription of Vengeance (30 AP, 10 Crit)
Cloak - Greater Agility (+12 Agi) or Subtlety (-2% Threat) if you feel threat constrained
Chest - Exceptional Stats (+6 Str/Agi)
Bracers - Brawn (+12 Strength)
Gloves - Major Strength (+15 Strength)
Rings - (Enchanter Only) Stats (+4 Str/Agi)
Legs - Nethercobra Leg Armor (50 AP, 12 Crit)

3.7 Consumables
Translating the benefit of consumables using EP values we can assess DPS consumables in order of greatest benefit:
Potions on 2 minute timers:
4 Enhancement Shaman in a group
4.1 How to choose totems
In a 5-man party your DPS is generally limited by the threat that your tank can produce. The most efficient way to increase small party DPS is to provide the tank with more threat. Totems should be chosen that compliment the tank, rather than the rest of the party, even it if means only 1 player is receiving benefit from the totem. Priority of totems always goes to the tank in small groups.

Warrior and Paladin tanks should always receive Windfury, unless they are severely under-geared and need the extra armor/dodge just to survive. Rationale for using GoA for a Warrior or Paladin tank should never be to provide crit. Feral druids that are tanking should always be given GoA.

In a raid setting this becomes slightly more complicated as bastardized groups are thrown together. Recommendation is to follow this set of rules:

Rule 1 - If you are ever in doubt about which Air totem should be used, your raid leader has probably failed to put together a complimentary group. Reference the Group Compositions That Work section for details on putting groups together. Encourage proper group compositions for maximum benefit to the raid.

Rule 2 - If a DPS warrior is in your group, he needs Windfury for his rage feedback mechanism. Windfury provides a larger DPS gain to a DPS warrior than any other totem to any other class.

Rule 3 - If you are in the Main Tank group, the warriors should be given Windfury unless it is a non-threat limited fight where survivability is more important. Prot Paladin tanks will benefit more from Wrath of Air and Feral Druids that are tanking should obviously receive Grace of Air.

Rule 4 - If there is no Warrior, but 2 or more Combat Sword Rogues are in the group, they will benefit slightly more from Windfury from increased opportunities for Sword Spec procs, than from Grace of Air.

Rule 5 - If your group has no warrior, and 2 or more Feral Druids or Hunters, Grace of Air is the totem of choice.

4.1.1 Totem Twisting
Sometimes the best way to solve a conflict of interest in a group is to give everyone what they want. Note that Blizzard has stated that Totem Twisting is considered a bug, and plan to remove the ability to do this in a future patch.

Windfury Totem places a 9 second buff on party member's weapons to imbue them with the extra attack mechanic. This can be manipulated to allow Grace of Air or Tranquil Air totems to be placed "simultaneously" with Windfury Totem.

You'll most likely want a macro to do this if you so choose, and a mod to track the time remaining on the windfury buff. A common one looks like this:
/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem
Totem Twisting has both its advocates and its detractors, it is not an agreed upon mechanic or strategy.
Pros:
  • Party gains 88 Agility or extra threat reduction
  • Overall DPS of the party is increased
Cons:
  • The shaman increases time spent in global cooldown, impairing his ability to decurse or purge mobs.
  • The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds while Stormstriking is roughly 14,000 mana every 2 minutes. This will limit the ability to use shocks, and requires very careful timing of Shamanistic Rage, may require JoW from a paladin, and definitely requires 5 points in Totemic Mastery.
  • Until you are very practiced with the technique you will find your attention devoted to watching the timers which means you will be less attentive to changes in the game environment
  • Latency or simply being late to refresh the Windfury totem will cause the Windfury buff to run off your party's weapons, which means they are losing opportunities for a Windfury proc.

4.2 Managing your threat
Enhance Shaman are severely threat capped - not as badly as a Ret Paladin, but worse than a DPS warrior. With no active threat reduction we rely on buffs, items, and strategy to reduce our threat. Methods to reduce your threat are listed below in order of Most to Least effective. Remember that threat reduction is multiplicative, not additive.
  • Spirit Weapons - Enhancement talent that reduces melee threat by 30%. This is a staple talent for our spec. If you don't have this, you're walking the crazy line. Most effective since its always on and isn't reliant on a paladin.
  • Blessing of Salvation - 30% threat reduction. If you only have one paladin in your raid, this is the buff you need. If you don't have a paladin in your horde raid, you need to pressure your leadership to recruit one.
  • [Prism of Inner Calm] - until Blizzard changes this the item is worth around 10% threat reduction as long as your raid buffed crit rate is over 30% (and by the time you're killing Vashj it damn well better be). Keep an eye on this as Blizzard may buff it at some point.
  • Strategy - A lot of this depends on your tank and his TPS generation. If your tank can generate around 800 TPS you can give him a 10k threat lead and then unload without much worry of catching up. If you find yourself approaching the threat cap you should stop shocking first since they aren't affected by Spirit Weapons. A suggestion was made of "downranking" your weapons for a few seconds, allowing you to continue to provide Unleashed Rage to the group with lowbie weapons so that your threat isn't increasing.
  • Battle Ankh - the improved ankh talent can certainly come in handy when clearing raid zones. You need to be extremely careful about pulling aggro however - if you pull and die, the mob will pick the next highest threat target to attack, which may not be the tank. A much safer method is to allow yourself to die to AoE, and have buffers primed to give you DPS buffs when you ankh. At that point you'll be free to take Blessing of Might if you didn't have it before, since your tank will now have a hefty threat lead.

5 Notes for Raid Leaders
[u][b][size=+1]5.1 Group compositions that work[u][b][size=+1]
While building groups for Enhancement Shaman its important to remember that while we are a support class, we also require support from other group members to enhance our own DPS. Battle Shout is one of the most important buffs that Enhancement Shaman require, followed by Blessing of Salvation/Might.

There are three possible group configurations that can make use of an Enhancement Shaman, listed below in order of the magnitude of buff they would bring to your raid as a whole.

Melee Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue/Feral Druid/BM Hunter/MM Hunter/Ret paladin
Fury or MS Warrior

The Melee Group is the top priority to receive an Enhancement Shaman, it is where we provide the most utility.

Tank Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin or Feral Druid
Tree Druid

This group brings an increased threat window for the rest of the raid, allowing the DPS classes to attack earlier and at full force, and should be the second priority for an Enhancement Shaman if you're able to bring 2 to a raid. If the Warrior or Paladin is the Main Tank, Windfury should be used. If the Feral is the Main Tank for an encounter, Grace of Air should be used.

Hunter/Feral Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Grace of Air Totem)
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Feral Druid

This should be an extremely rare situation since very few guilds would ever have room in a roster for a third Enhancement Shaman, or it could be used for an encounter specific group setup. Regardless, a stacked hunter group benefits far less from Enhancement than any other physical DPS class since they cannot make use of Unleashed Rage. A Resto Shaman can actually benefit hunters more with the additional mana throughput. This group also places a strain on the Enhancement Shaman to maintain totems at the appropriate range for the melee and ranged in the group.

5.2 Evaluating with WoW Web Stats
Determining if an Enhancement Shaman is performing to his potential is tricky for a raid leader as the damage output can be very random from one raid to the next, and there are no clear indicators of "using the wrong ability at the wrong time" as with other classes. The following list is intended to assist raid leaders on where to focus their efforts.
  • First and foremost, familiarize yourself with this article so that you can talk the talk with the shaman. You need to understand what Stats benefit them and what sort of weapons they need, as well as getting a good understanding of just how random our DPS can be.
  • Examine your Enhancement Shaman on the Armory. Ensure that his gear meets the principles outline in this article. He should not have Hit gems, his gear should be properly enchanted for maximum DPS benefit, and he should be wearing the most appropriate gear for the spec. You may need to do some research on WoWHead or Thottbot to help make gear upgrade recommendations. He should not be trying to wear hybrid gear for spell damage or healing.
  • Group buffs are the primary reason you're bringing this shaman and so you should check to make sure he's fulfilling that role. Using WWS you can check to see how many times a totem was dropped on a fight by viewing the Shaman's record for that event. Check the "Performed" section and see how many times a totem was dropped. Multiply that by 120 seconds and compare to the length of the fight. The estimated uptime should be pretty close. If there are several minutes of uncovered time, your shaman is not keeping totems down and your melee group is suffering. Unleashed Rage should ideally have 100% uptime which approximately requires a 30% crit rate fully buffed.
  • Evaluating personal DPS contribution is tricky because it depends on armor level of the boss, your strategy on the boss, and the nature of the fight itself.

    His spread of damage should follow a general trend. Windfury attacks should account for 30-40%, Stormstrike for 10-12%. If its significantly less than that, the shaman may have forgotten to put Windfury on one or both weapons (or it ran out) or may not have been using Stormstrike on every 10sec cooldown.

    Shocks should be anywhere from 0-15% of his damage depending on the threat situation or magic immunities. His shock damage should come from a roughly equal number of Flame and Earth shocks, indicating a good DPS rotation of Flame-Earth-Flame. A perfect rotation would have 10 shocks per minute of combat, but given interference with stormstrike and using GCDs for consumables we could consider 7-8 shocks a minute to be an acceptable range.

    AutoAttack should make up the rest of his damage, normally 40-50%.

    There should be a minimal level of Parried attacks, indicating that he attacked from behind the boss. His Miss Rate on WWS is mostly irrelevant unless he hasn't hit capped his specials. Except for cases where debuffs cause loss of Hit %, no special attack should ever be Missed (only dodged/parried). The number of white attacks missed should not be used as an indicator of "needs more hit rating."
  • In the rare situation that you had two Enhancement shaman and need to compare their performance this becomes very difficult. You cannot simply say that they have 'similar gear', you will need to compare fully raid buffed stats including all group buffs for Hit, Crit, and Attack Power. Group composition is extremely important. If one shaman only had Trueshot Aura but the other had LotP and Battle Shout, the second shaman (all else being equal) should have a significant advantage over the other. Differences of 100 AP or 5% crit can easily explain large gaps in DPS output. Also check and compare Shock rotations and Stormstrike use. More often than not though, the culprit is group buffs or using an Elixir instead of a Flask.

6 Simulations
The nature of windfury and flurry interactions make closed form modeling extremely difficult and prone to a high degree of deviation. The Enhancement community turned to combat simulators as a way to model our DPS to make informed decisions. Currently the best utility for doing this is Yo!'s simulator.

To use Yo's simulator, load the armory or view your character paperdoll in-game. Make a note of which buffs you have active. Input your stats into the first panel, including your strength and agility for Blessings of Kings calculations. (You do not need BoK on your character for this) Your Hit% should be a sum of the paperdoll value and any from talents. (Nature's Guidance and Improved Dual Wielding do not show up in the paper doll)

Change the panel to the Procs and Buffs pages and enter things appropriately. Not all trinkets are represented, some things like the Bloodlust Brooch should be added as a static AP value to your stats. (Benefit * LengthOfBuff / Cooldown)

Yo's Sim is most accurate when its run for long periods of time, multiple times. If you want EP values, the recommended method is to run the sim for 5,000 - 10,000 hours between 5-10 times, taking the average of all the EP values as the result. If you want to simply compare DPS between item upgrades, multiple runs at 1,000 hours should be sufficient. The length of the sim run helps to smooth out the randomness of windfury/flurry in our DPS model.

7 Useful Links and Addons
  • DisqoDice - written by Disquette this addon will display nicely sync'd bars illustrating shock, stormstrike, and windfury cooldowns, and a new watershield timer to take advantage of the new watershield in 2.3.
  • Enhancer, available at WowAce. This in-game mod will display EP tooltips, can import personal EP values from Yo!'s simulator, and can show a wide variety of shaman data in-game such as WF cooldown, totem twisting timer, etc.
  • LootRank is useful for comparing gear based on statweights. This page includes all the new ZA gear as well as support for Haste, -Armor and Expertise.
  • Pawn Addon Latest version now supports haste, expertise, and -Armor, as well as having a GUI to fill in the stat weights. This will add a "rating" to your item tooltips that you can fill in with the EP values, allowing you to view the EP value of an item in-game.
  • ShamanFriend Provides a large number of shaman related alerts for missing weapon imbues, missing water shield, and can output results of purges, interrupts, bloodlust to your party/raid. Also features a totem timer.

8 Changelog
  • 13 Feb 08 - Changed prot paladins to wrath of air rather than windfury
  • 8 Feb 08 - Finished re-formatting the wiki stuff back into normal forum formatting
  • 6 Feb 08 - Complete restructuring and a decent rewrite of the post to match the upcoming wiki article

Last edited by Malan : 02/28/08 at 11:50 AM.
#2SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
Great post.
#3SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
#4SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Aett
Very good post.

I would add the GM/HW one-handers in the list of available blue offhands. I use the axe currently because heroic bosses despise dropping weapons for me. (Got exalted with CE trying to get an offhand..)
#5SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You can use the enchants to make up for deficiencies in your gear if you need it – Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +40 Strength (80 AP).
Perhaps you were referring to having both weapons enchanted, but Enchant Weapon Potency is only +20 Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22553).
OH itemization is fairly poor early on, with a few more choices available in TK and BT. If you are not yet in those zones the best choices for OH is a 2.6 speed Gladiator weapon from Arenas, a crafted Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) or a blue one-hand weapon available in several heroic instances (Auchenai Crypts last boss drops a 2.6 speed one-hand axe). Failing that, get yourself a green 2.6 speed off the Auction House.
Just to add to it, the 2.6 blue OHs drop in Heroic UB from Hungarfen, Heroic Old Hillsbrad from Lieutenant Drake, and Heroic Crypts like you mentioned; the level 70 blue HWL weapons are also 71.7 DPS.

Good post.
#6SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2The Dood
Thank the maker!

I was getting headache's trying to de-crypt the Itemization thread
#7SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ghando
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical.
--Haste Rating is not bad for Enhance Shamans. There was some comically faulty theorycrafting on Blizzard's Shaman forums a while back claiming that Haste Rating actually lowered DPS. This is not the case. At all. Haste Rating will increase DPS substantially, as for any melee class with a high % of damage being white. However, Haste Rating suffers from diminishing returns as it increases and pushes WF procs closer together.
#8SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Gwaihir
Some links to the only non-arena offhands until you hit Al'ar:

Bloodskull Destroyer
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28210

Boggspine Knuckles
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27747

and The Harvester of Souls
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27872
#9SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Oops on the Potency value. That was me copying from someone else's post.
Updating with some of this stuff now.
#10SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ghando View Post
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical..
Well, the Windfury bonus AP is the same for each hand yes, but the procs are most definitely not the same since the OH weapon damage is reduced by 50%. I had already included a statement about this in the original post though, its in the WF section at the top.
Haste was mentioned already as well.

Edit - Can someone provide the data on Gems (8 Str and the 4Str/4Crit ones) and the meta gems of choice?
#11SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
#12SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Phro View Post
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
Oy. I totally almost put this into the post and then I thought. "nah, I think people are done asking this".

.... and so it shall go into the post.

No, do not use WF totem instead of WF Weapon. Its not nearly the same thing.
#13SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
Haha, thanks! I haven't been reading the shammy-enh posts since I went resto at 70 and then ele eventually. Very good post none-the-less.

Btw im a retard...I thought WF totem buffed both weapons...stupid question! Having said that, if it was possible to self-imbued WF and totem OH WF, maybe it would be better...but who knows.

Thanks again!
#14SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean 1 CR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR?
#15SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Yeah, that's right. "Equivalences" are just inverted "weights." For equivalencies, you're just saying "I would be equally happy getting 1 CR or 1.43 HR." For weights, you're saying "HR is 0.7 times as good as [1.0] CR."

I really like the "weight" system myself, because it allows for quick input into lootzor, and it also conforms to the AEP paradigm. You can think of those weights as AEP for us (since Agi is 1.0 as well) or CritEP if you prefer. (Technically, AGI is 0.97 = 22.1*1.1/25, but I think 1.0 is close enough for simplicity's sake.) I believe pawn uses the same approach, to give each item a "value" in the tooltip.
#16SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
I've got exported pawn strings for Pater and Disquette's values:

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Disq)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=1.51, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=1.47, HitRating=1.08, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

So you can use the /pawn import command and paste those in. I scaled both to use a baseline of 1AP, and assumed 8str gems in sockets, and 24AP gem in metasocket.
#17SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
That's pretty cool.

I have also added a link to Lootzor's top 10 results for every slot in my sig.
#18SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Sebudai
Yeah I wanted to make sure, because it seems some of Lootzor's items are out of date with the 2.1 changes and I was working on a list for myself. Now we need to figure out weighting and value for haste rating.
#19SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
I can (or a helpful helper can) put haste rating into my sim pretty easily. I don't have any procs yet, but I should make the top ones (mongoose and that haste hammer at least) a priority.
#20SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
Totem of the Astral Winds isn't exactly farmable, you can't reset heroic instances. It does take 15 minutes from zone in to the first boss though, should be worth doing it anytime you're doing any other Heroic in Auchindoun.
#21SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
We should also include int/mp5 in our weightings (perhaps in two minute chunks). Although alot of leather is quite rated quite highly in the lootzor link, I think my back of the envelope calculations showed that we shouldn't neglect Int/mp5 completely: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1026 http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1039

It may be that, at higher levels of gear, the percentage of damage that consists of Shocks will be so low that it's more worthwhile to just gear without thought to mana and reduce the number of shocks. But, at my level, with 0 spell damage, shocks are still a significant portion of my damage (~156 dps with debuffs). Since I am at the point where it is possible to run OOM during a full burn cycle, there must exist some equivalence between extra mana vs extra melee stats.

AP and +hit has the advantage of doing double duty of increasing melee damage while boosting mana gains, but relying on SR completely is also not always optimal. Timing SR with a trinket maximises mana gain, but you have to time it when you can be certain you won't waste SR procs. However, in many encounters, there exist damage windows where it's optimal to save your trinket for. These two scenarios don't always occur at the same time.

With a full burn DPS cycle being estimated at least ~13k mana per two minutes, we need to consider the question: What is the optimal ratio of intellect and mp5 to melee stats?

This will be a multivariable function which several critical points exist. Some things to consider:
-Does there exist any itemization points where the additional melee damage outweighs being able to shock every cooldown?
-If there is not, what is the minimum mana pool, mp5 and mana from SR required to sustain a full burn cycle.
#22SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Panny: I guess your mileage may vary. Some shaman have mana issues, others never do. It all depends on your gear, your raid composition, and the encounter.

It's impossible to have a realistic "dps weight" for mp5, int or stamina, because there is no direct connection between them and the other dps stats. At best, you should establish the amount of mana used in a 2 minute burn cycle, and develop a formula to express how much minimum mana a shaman would need, based on his AP (since AP directly feeds your mana regen with SR). mp5 is going to always, always, always be an inferior stat to Int for a decently geared shaman, since that shaman will be regenerating more mana with SR than he has room for in his small mana pool, and Int is a much cheaper itemization stat.

Furthermore, a 'full burn cycle' of mana consumption is nearly always constant, so there's not a lot of variables involved. Just determine the formula needed for complete sustainability based on buffed AP and weapon speed.

Personally, I raid with a Ret pally. <3 JoW
#23SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Zurgat
Curious, i wonder how big the difference is between the WF weapon enchant, and the WF totem (both talented).

Last edited by Zurgat : 01/04/08 at 11:13 AM.
#24SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
The biggest difference is that Windfury Weapon is 2 attacks. The totem is only 1.
#25SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2dwayna
so if i read this correclty . axe of the deepwoods with the flurry axe fails for lvling and i should get a slower weapon instead of the flurry 1 . im lvl 52 btw
#26SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
As for further models you can add my EquipOptimizer, which includes my Enh model.
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

The other shaman models are just fine, they should give you correct results.
The holy priest model is fine too, the shadow model is not finished
The protection tank model is not completely finished, but the results should be ok.
Rogue isn't even started.

It has some certain problems with selecting the right gems and it has some problems if you actually lock too many item slots, you should always leave like 2-3 open, otherwise it might as well crash.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
#28SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Oprahwinfury
Nice Pater but don't forget to add the miniscule spell crit rating that a point of Int gives as well
#29SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
It seems to have some absurd droprate, which is a pity. I got mine on the first kill and I can't say I'm mad that I did :P.
#30SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)

Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
#31SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I was under the impression that SR was PPM based, obviously no-cooldown.
#32SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Unaz
SS x 120/10 = 226*12 = 2712
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = 1107
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 460*10 = 4600
FS x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 430*10 = 4300
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2712 + 1107 - 720 + 4600 + 4300 - 237 = 11762

With 2 extra shocks and the 5% extra damage adding up to a third extra shock in damage. With one out of the 20 proccing Elemental devastation for +9% crit as well on average.

With an Enhance/Ele spec of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

So it's a savings of only about 300 mana with 3 extra shocks of damage, and a solid chance at proccing +9% crit every two minutes.

SR in my experience seemed to be PPM, as with a two hander it was proccing almost every swing fairly reliably. However dual wield seems to be PPM per hand, so you end up with almost the same effect at about twice the rate. The description is also fairly typical of a PPM description on the tooltip.


Also keep in mind that once your attack power reaches a certain breakpoint the time frame changes. You'll be filling your mana pool and able to refresh all your totems inside the window of SR, and even get free shocks off as well.

With SR lasting 30 seconds and enough attack power, you can almost guarantee yourself full mana at the end of 30 seconds. With a full totem refresh.

So a full totem refresh is about 8 seconds with GCD I believe. Which leaves 22 seconds for other spells. Which is 3 shocks untalented, or 4 talented.

If we assume the enh/resto build and full mana at the end of SR we have:

SS x 90/10 = 236*9 = 2124
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = FREE (SHould be able to drop and recover during SR uptime)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 (will be up during SR)
ES x 90/7/2 = 535*6 = 3210 (there's rounding here, but rounding down due to not being able to land a partial shock)
FS x 90/7/2 = 500*6 = 3000
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 (Should probably not count as it will happen during SR?)
2124 - 720 + 3210 + 3000 - 237 = 7377

With Enh/Ele:

SS x 90/10 = 226*9 = 2034
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = FREE
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 90/6/2 = 460*7.5 = 3450 (15 shocks, so one needs to be 8, averaging as it can go either way)
FS x 90/6/2 = 430*7.5 = 3225
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2034 - 720 + 3450 + 3225 - 237 = 7752 (with 3 more shocks and 75% of the damage of another shock)

NOTE that these are only if you are able to maintain a shock rotation and re-drop all totems during SR, ending at full mana. If you are able to proc 400 mana/second, you can get 12000. 500 mana every two seconds (which is more reasonable at higher ends of gear) is 7500 mana during SR. The closer you can get to the end of SR with full mana without interrupting your shock/SS rotation, the closer to efficient you get. Right now I only ever seem to need the cheap combat mana pots to keep shocks going. Although I'm usually aggro capped before that, or have trouble keeping on the mob for the full duration.

Quick Conclusion
I have some overlap and rounding issues here, and will assume that hardly everyone keeps up a perfect dps rotation on every cooldown, or gets 100% uptime. These numbers are pointing at about 7400-7800 under optimum conditions and a certain level of AP. I'd say 8500 is probably the ideal amount of mana to allow for breathing room WITHOUT relying on pots. If you have pots you either can get more breathing room or a lower mana pool. Or save the cooldowns for non-mana pots.

I also hardly ever find myself using totemic call unless I'm moving away from my old totems, as I'd rather refresh them one at a time and not take the buffs off my group for sake of my mana efficiency. There's also water shield to consider, which procs off of many more conditions then Lightning Shield, so I usually keep it up all the time.

Last edited by Unaz : 06/20/07 at 4:04 PM.
#33SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
panny
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
Not including CoE, imp. scorch, Misery or SS debuff is a mistake imho, ES+FS rotation is ~156 DPS. According to the simple maths I did comparing Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless vs Cyclone Spaulders, if you accept that it is possible to run OoM, there's definitely cases where going for the int is more advantageous.

I suppose creating a ratio isn't as useful as other stats, as after your mana pool is a certain size compared to your gains from SR, it stops contributing to your DPS. The fact that the question "how much int do I need" will vary for different encounters, your stats, and raid composition. With no gear changes, on one week of Gruul, I gained 3-4k mana per Shamanistic Rage. This week, with a Survival Hunter and two Warriors in my group (meaning I get Battle Shout for the entire fight rather than just the first half), I gained 7.5k mana.

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)
They can, but generally, Fel Mana Potions are a better bet (3.2k mana restored).

Also, don't forget that Bloodlust is 750 mana. Obviously, you don't cast it ever 2 minutes, it needs to be considered.

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
I use WWS to give me an indication of how much mana will be restored in a given encounter. I believe it is PPM.

All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?

Last edited by panny : 06/20/07 at 9:44 PM.
#34SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Originally Posted by panny View Post
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?
6k unbuffed mana. 1400 unbuffed ap.

I never go out of mana in raids. I spam stormstrike every cast, and shock every single opportunity when threat isn't a concern. During unleashed rage, I mana dump every chance that I can, even using Fire Nova Totem / Searing Totem rotations =X. Mana is just not an issue unless my unleashed rage is interrupted somehow. (Void Reaver is annoying for this reason. I usually save my healthstones for Unleashed Rage, and just eat a few ground poundings).

We frequently have JoW up however.
#35SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Well, I'm nearly 100% kara leather and have been avoiding anything with mana for a while. The only time I have mana problems is when I forget to use SR.
#36SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
All accounts of JoW make me rather jealous.

Pater, is that with a full shock rotation?
#37SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
#38SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Panny -- occasionally I have mana problems when pushing shocks to the max. Most of the time the problems are SR-related, though: either forgetting to use it, or having some of it wasted because of shatter and the like.
#39SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all? If you do, and are not getting JoW, you need to yell at them. My paladins claimed they "couldn't keep judgments on" until I bitched about it non stop and made them do it. Now they keep it up all the time because they can see the huge returns we get from JoL and JoW.
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night)
You can bring more melee than that - we did VR first time last night also, had 4 tanks and 5 melee in the pounding the whole time. 1-2 Shaman can chain heal the melee through the entire fight with no issues.
#40SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Maybe there should be a few lines in the OP about which pally buffs are best for enhancement. In an ideal world, you'd get all four (kings, might, wisdom, salvation), but in reality we usually only run with three paladins. I tend to prefer kings, might, salve as my combination, due to the fact that kings and might mean I gain a healthy amount of mana back from each SR proc.

These are the pros and cons of each based on my experiences:

Kings - Increases all stats by 10%.
Pros: Good in almost every situation.
Cons: Causes a decent increase in threat generation due to harder hits and more shocks.

Might - Increases AP by 220.
Pros: More AP means stronger attacks, more SR mana returns.
Cons: Threat generation when combined with kings. Paladins have to buff this separately and refresh during battle.

Wisdom - Returns 42 mp5.
Pros: Best blessing for mana regen, shines on long fights.
Cons: Not always necessary with proper use of SR.

Salvation - Decrease threat generated by 30%
Pros: Best blessing for threat problems, allows 30% more dps.
Cons: Useless blessing when not threat capped.

In general, the other shaman always want kings, wisdom and salvation. I usually have to coordinate with the wisdom pally to get the five minute version of might and have it refreshed during battle. I placed that under con because if the pally is dead or healing then you're out of a buff after the first five minutes.

It's also worth noting (perhaps under might?) that on nights where we have a fury warrior in the dps group I tend to need salvation more, due to battleshout.
#41SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler.
This is slightly off topic, but proper placement of totems helps a lot during the first 2 minutes of Mag. With 30yd totems you can place them between the first and second channeler and not have to redrop until you move to the third one. I usually end up dropping totems twice after the pull, and it makes a noticeable difference in my mana pool going into phase 2. I also save SR and bloodlust till the 3rd channeler, but that's just my personal preference.

I've noticed a lot of fights where good totem placement can make mana management much easier, like Mag and Hydross. Just make sure your group knows where you're placing the totems so they can stay near them.
#42SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Khrashz
meta choices

One thing that seems conspicuously absent from the collected theorycraft is metagem choices.

EDIT: appears that relentless earthstorm is the best choice, after reading one of the source threads. Still -- would be an appropriate addition to this excellent summary.

Last edited by Khrashz : 06/21/07 at 1:42 PM.
#43SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
99% sure the math was done in the itemization thread proving 3% is better. It's nicer now that it also procs on yellow damage instead of just white.
#44SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Khrashz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
You too? My condolences ... although I'm basically numb by now ... I think I'm up to 25+ runs without seeing it drop. Exalted with consortium, got all sorts of ethereum keys, a fel barrier, etc ... but that totem .... that totem ... why. Why. Why.

In other news, my other white whale, Skulker's Greaves, was harpooned, brought to port, and made into exceedingly expensive perfumes in the deep hours of the night yesterday.

PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.

Here's my armory, with me wearing them in all their unsocketed/unpatched glory:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...oroth&n=Khrash

Once I patch them later today, I'll be starting with a baseline of 1498 ap and 203 hit unbuffed. (If I push cap, I can change out edgewalker to rapscallion, and/or pick up a pendant of the perilous to replace worgen claw).

Advice on which 3 gems to stuff in them?
#45SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Grats!

I'd agree with your friend. I give STR a 1.1 weight and HR only 0.7.

Right now, I have 4cr/6sta in mine for the yellow slot, but that's because I just haven't gotten around to changing it since settling on the stat weights.


According to a few sims and other approaches, HR just isn't that hot above some level. You don't even need to be that close to the cap (25.5) before it starts giving diminishing returns. (As far as why this might be, I would guess it's because SS and WF only have 5% base miss rate.)
#46SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all?
Yeah, I do redrop WF/SoE; I also drop Fire Elemental Totem for the first 2 channelers (we MD one onto the first tank and he tanks 2 in one spot), as well as earth shocking heals/shadow bolt volleys. I typically use my trinkets on the channelers but save my SR for Magtheridon, which lets me get a full bar back if I take a few seconds off of shocking. Heroism, I don't bother popping for the first 2 Channelers because I would just pull aggro, I usually save it for the 3rd or so. I'm going to assume that any difference left over is due to JoW; we usually carry 3-4 Holy paladins, maybe I can get one of them to start judging it for me.
Originally Posted by Khrashz View Post
PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.
Your friend is right. Go triple +8 str, or if for some perverse reason you want the +dodge rating bonus, use one of the purple +4 str/+6 sta gems.
#47SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jendryn
Rob, once you've had a pally judge wisdom in a fight like Magtheridon where you're essentially standing there the entire fight (minus any backup clicking duties you may have), you won't want to ever go back. In the case of Mag, JoW restores just about the same amount of mana SR does when using SR every cooldown (SR restores about 410 mana on proc untrinketed in raids).

In any event, I too have harbored the fear of losing too much Int due to wearing leather but the more my Int goes down, I can see that it truly has a very small effect. Now I just need this link handy when I bid on rogue gear.
#48SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jeht
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is now extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit a mob again after a WF cooldown is up, and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. The OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH (any from KZ as an example) with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)

The attack power bonus from Windfury is not reduced by the 50% OH damage penalty from Dual Wielding.
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
#49SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jeht View Post
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the AP from the Windfury proc applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad level gear it becomes much more pronounced as more of your damage is generated from AP.
#50SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
drats - Good idea on the totem placement, don't know why I didn't think of that.

Krashz and Negative - I went through the itemization thread like 3 times and somehow keep missing the couple of posts that debated meta gems, if someone can summarize it up for me to put in the OP or link it, I'd be obliged. Quite busy at work right now.
#176SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Hey!

As an enhancement shaman, I have problems often with my task being recognized (as a buffer).

So I have a petition tho whoever knows how to code, that would greatly help our spec.

Make an addon that calculates the DPS given to party by our buffs. This can be somewhat complicated, but at least some parts are easy.

By selecting Skill Details in swstats, you can get how many Windfury damage a player did. So, it should be easy to extract those numbers and summarize them up in a separate addon. I'm finding that rogues do an average 7% damage from my Windfury Totem, and warriors go up to 15%.

Now, this part was easy. How to calculate STR totem (or AGI if it's down instead of Windfury) and Unleashed Rage?

I'm sure the mats are not easy for certain classes considering instants and procs, but if Recap and SWStats can get so much accurate info about that data, it should not be hard for someone with enough knowledge on scripting and game mechanics to code something easy that can report at the end of the fight something like:

Tradewind's own damage: 340932.
WF given to party: +89023.
+STR given to party: +14932.
UR given to party: +40834.
Total damage added to the raid: 485721.
#177SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Vykromond
The problem with such an approach is that every other class will want to be recognized for its own "non-personal DPS contribution" and some are much more easy to quantify than others.
#178SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Kissmyaxe
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
#179SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2berg
Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe View Post
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
I agree that previously ele/enh shaman were competing with resto shaman. But this comparison was a lot better pre-expansion than it is now.

If you take one of the many generic melee dps powerhouse groups for example...
feral,
dps war,
rogue,
rogue,
<some shaman>

A resto shaman can still provide great buffs to this group similar to an enhancement shaman. However the resto shamans totems and the other members group buffs (Battle shout, lotp) will be entirely wasted on the resto shaman.

The enhancement shaman drops marginally superior totems but also takes advantage of his totems and the other melee buffs. Also Unleashed rage is a 300 AP buff in a raid setting which is certainly significant since it is almost always up. With these factors altogether, there is a very significant gap in the raid strength of a melee group with an enh shaman and one with a resto shaman.
#180SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
#181SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Sure, and you can sum all your damage lines in the Combat Log for the last 10 minutes fight and come up with your total damage.

Are you retard? I was speaking about something fight-specific, not some dumb and generalistic %'s everyone knows already.
#182SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Are you retard?
Don't make posts like this please.
#183SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Shinok
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
We stopped doing Magtheridon before I picked up my current weapons. This is from our last kill when I was using The Decapitator and Fel Edged Battleaxe. I wasn't in charge of clicking a cube: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...314/index.html

This is from our most recent Karathress: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...128/index.html
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
#184SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Indeed. The percentage increases make a compelling case for an enhancement shaman in a melee group.

Whether you top some sort of "contribution" meter is pretty irrelevant, especially with all the synergistic effects that go on in a group/raid (ie how much of your UR uptime was from the crit buff you got from a feral druid etc etc).
#185SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Expigator
Originally Posted by Shinok View Post
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
I was looking at the same thing. That's some pretty high dps for lacking that much hit. I guess when you hit something, you hit it hard. Those 2 weapons are super nice as well. I may be rethinking my hit scenario after seeing those WWS reports and your armory.

I think being a rogue before may have had something to do with my +hit lust.
#186SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
I've been running with an Enhance/Elemental build for a while now, and find it to be fairly effective overall. The 5 second cooldown on shocks especially (helpful on damage and fights where I have to help interrupt), and elemental devastation procs often enough to make the talents worthwhile - kicking my crit up to over 40% quite easily.

My main selling point for it is the ability to maintain a full shock rotation much without having to go to pots (beyond the occasionaly combat pot), on a faster cooldown, and for more damage.

The resto options are good, but you seem to have to put so many points in for that 3%. The totem range increase does help, but is usually not overly necessary with careful positioning.
#187SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm also trying to go for AP and crit over hit, based on Disquette and Pater's simulation results; my gear's not as good as Sebudai's though. One thing that's not indicated by just a cursory glance at his character sheet is the haste rating he's got on his gear; note that his 2.60 speed weapon is dropped to 2.53 without Flurry. If the calculations thus far in the thread are correct, Haste should be very powerful.

Originally Posted by tha_bishop View Post
question:
I use deathbringer (http://www.thottbot.com/i17068) and Mag'hari fury brand (http://www.thottbot.com/i25764) on my lvl 66 shaman.

I guess I should put deathbringer in my MH? It has a proc, is slower and has only a little bit less max dmg. Only reason why I am doubting is because mag'hari does have more max dmg and just more dps.
I'd put the higher DPS weapon in your MH and the lower DPS weapon in your OH. The speed differential doesn't matter so much, but in general I guess I'd rather have a slower weapon in the OH since it's getting fewer WF procs.
#188SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Shinok View Post
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
One thing that might explain some of the 15% gap on Sebudai's dps from yours is that they're swapping other shaman into his group for bloodlust. He gets it 3 times on that fight, lucky bastard.
#189SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
• Sebudai
Well, based on numbers found in this thread 1 CR = 2 AP. 4% crit is 88.4 CR so it would only take 176.8 AP to equal the benefit of 4% crit. Thus 200 AP is probably slightly better than 4% crit.

A few months ago I did some math based on my own WWS parses to assign a weighting to each stat. This is when I first discovered that +hit was overvalued, and that crit and attack power are normally a better use of item budget for us. The weightings I came up with a few months ago are very close to what you will find in this thread, and since these guys are probably better at math than I am, I just use theirs.

1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP. Decide how much you value stamina in comparison to those three stats and it will be very easy for you to figure out which items are upgrades for you.

Honestly it's best to not think in terms of stacking one stat. All three of these stats are good for us, and they all depend on eachother. You want all three of them, and what is important is the quantities involved. Yes, one of them might be the 'superior' use of item budget, but it's not like we get to design our own items. We have to use what Blizzard gives us. My hit rating isn't intentionally low because I think +hit sucks, that's just how it worked out for me by following the above stat weightings.

The randomness of drops had an impact aswell because I don't hold out for the statistically best upgrade. If an item is an upgrade, I'm sending on it, regardless of if there is a bigger upgrade out there.

Anyway, yeah we switch our Bloodlusts around like that a lot. Basically whoever benefits the most from it on any given encounter is going to get most, if not all of the Bloodlusts. Also, I've picked up quite a few upgrades very recently(bracer, ring, cloak and breastplate off the top of my head), so the gear in my armory profile is better than what I was using for those WWS parses I linked.

Last edited by Sebudai : 06/29/07 at 6:24 PM.
#190SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Tharas
Boot Enchants
For PvE, either Boars Speed or Cat's Swiftness are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Check the following archived posts for the math: (note that these were calculated pre-TBC)
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=20
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=48
While I am leveling my Shaman (53 now) -- any comment on the utility of Figurine - Golden Hare (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21756)? -- a lot of Draenei Shaman are also going to be JC alts. Has anyone measured the passive runspeed of the trinket vs the boot enchant? (I'll do it tonight if not) I have some other random JC trinkets but nothing special yet, I think all good trinket drops are BRD and higher. +8 AP is the best "offensive" trinket thus far, and based on the math in those linked threads I think run speed trinket might be better than +8AP.

(I'll move this somewhere if it's appropriate, I just couldn't find a better place)
#191SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
It provides the same bonus as any talent, metagem or enchant does - +8% running speed.

So it's just fine while leveling JC, having a third escape option beside stoneclaw + spirit wolf and [Nifty Stopwatch]. But it's not really better then putting Enchant Boots - Minor Speed on your feet or using [Defiler's Mail Greaves] (of any level).

But there are several trinkets, i would prefer over it:
Tidal Charm http://www.wowhead.com/?item=1404
Figurine - Truesilver Boar http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21763 (not because of the AP, but the boar is really strong for this level)
Rune of the Guard Captain - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19120 (Horde)
Lifestone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=833
Linken's Boomerang - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11905#00zc
Hand of Justice - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815
#192SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
#193SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Leachim View Post
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
Probably something like 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 1 Haste Rating. According to math posted earlier in this thread it should actually only take 0.9 haste rating to equal the benefit of 2 AP/1 CR/1.43 HR, so I'm rounding up a little.
#194SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Beowolf
EquipOptimizer

Hey Tornhoof, GREAT WORK on setting up the filters! There's only one problem...when I import my armory profile, and lock the items and do an optimization for gems (your v12 did seem to indicate that different gems were more useful depending on gear)...the entire program crashes and has to be restarted. Any idea whats causing this?
#195SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
You currently can not optimize Gems only, you shouldn't take the Gems too serious either, since they are only optimized locally (for each item individually), not globally for all the items combined.
#196SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
TradewindKlaatubarada
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 07/02/07 at 9:18 AM.
#197SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman of Valor
I'm sure you already know the answer to at least 3 of those questions by this point in the discussion.

Metagem - generally accepted as 3% Crit Dmg > Haste effect > soul shard gem > stam/stun resist

I believe we are treating haste as a 0.9 or 1.0 weight on stats.

The tiered bonuses I can't really speak of since I'm not up to that point yet, although the T5 2pc certainly has value for a player who plays to the hybrid/support style, less value to those who want to be a rogue in mail.

There is no detrimental effect that anyone is aware of from having an OH slower than the MH to the Windfury cycle, the only downside is that you lose the "bugged" flurry effect from having the same MH/OH speeds.

Str/Crit gems are always better than +8 Hit. No shaman should ever be using +8 Hit gems unless for some silly reason they chose not to grab the +9% Hit from talents.

The Ashtongue trinket was shown in the Itemization thread to have less AP bonus over time than the Bloodlust brooch did, so the Tsunami Talisman would likely be the better choice.
#198SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Wolflord
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Few discussions I'd like to see:

a- Metagem choice?
b- Haste value as a stat?
c- T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
d- 2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
e- +4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
f- Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

a- As long as you happen to have 2 blue gems use Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, failing that Swift Skyfire.

b- One point of haste rating is worth about one point of strength (only 3 posts above yours).

c- T5 4piece is roghly 3-4% dps, T6 4piece is closer to 2%, though the gains from having 4 pieces of the superior tier 6 outweigh this.

d- Conclusions have been inconclusive.

e- The str/crit gem will ALWAYS be better for all levels of gear from zero hit rating to hit capped (unless youre not actually enh specced, just wanting to do some physical dps with your resto spec).

f- On a stand and deliver fight the Ashtongue Talisman looks like a 137AP which is far superior to the Tsunami Talisman. Edit:: or not. Depends on the uptime of the Tsunami AP buff, one proc every 70 seconds or more often would make the Tsunami better than the Ashtongue, any less would favour the Ashtongue (excuse my bad midnight maths).

edit:: Beaten by Malan.

Last edited by Wolflord : 07/02/07 at 9:30 AM. Reason: Bad midnight maths
#199SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Here's the original analysis done on the Ashtongue -
It's not that great. 50% to do 275 is basically 50% uptime, so a passive 137.5 AP. Compared to Bloodlust Brooch, which is a passive 72 that adds 278 for 20/120... 72+46.3=118.3ap. So it's actually only a 19 ap bonus over Bloodlust Brooch, and has the added downside of being less controllable; you can guarantee that the +278ap of the Brooch occurs during SR, boosting its output.

So actually... it's pretty damn bad for where it is in the game... barely an upgrade over a badge trinket.
Its an upgrade over the Bloodlust Brooch, but you lose the control over when the proc occurs.
#200SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Please, check this:



http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5...izationry2.jpg

If you detect any flaw, tell me.
#326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its been discussed a few times. To be honest I'd never even heard of it (I think most people call it twisting) until the xpack and all the Alliance shaman were the ones pushing it forward. I've no intention of trying it out. I already feel like I'm waiting on GCD quite a bit and adding that twisting into a 10 second rotation is going to be crazy. Trying to fit 2 totem drops + 2 Shocks + SS into a 10 second period is going to fill the entire period with a GCD. The mana cost alone is enough to dissuade me without even thinking of the benefit - there's no way I could sustain dropping 2 totems every 10 seconds over a 10 minute fight.
I am on the same line of thought.
While it may be a boost, I cant see why I would ever be arsed to do it.

Last edited by Stigmata : 07/06/07 at 2:23 PM.
#327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
#328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
I get nervous if I get below 50% mana - I like to have a big reserve to spam heals on myself for when I inevitably pull something I shouldn't be pulling, and I am prone to throw heals at people to help out when I can.
#329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Aett
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
I only use tranquil air on very threat sensitive fights. I find I'm not really ever threat capped except when I'm using shamanistic rage, bugged judgment of light (320 healing procs), and heroism at the same time, in which case my treat sometimes spikes on omen up above 1300 tps; a number that I'm obviously not capable of generating with damage alone.

I did use TA on void reaver last night with a great deal of success, I was able to go all out the entire fight and came close pulling aggro at the very end. We have our melee dps stay in the entire fight instead of stepping out to avoid poundings. My dps warrior did unfortunately die to aggro with less than a minute left in the fight.

EDIT: Took the question to a more appropriate thread.

Last edited by Aett : 07/06/07 at 4:38 PM.
#330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Hourglass of the Unraveller - +300 AP for 10sec, 10% proc on crit (3% chance to proc with 30% crit rate) 45sec cooldown
I am sorry but since i made addon for collecting cooldowns i newer got it to proc faster then 50 seconds, and i raid a lot...
#331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Well that's the official WoWHead.com data for it and it agrees with all of the other major data mining sites.
#332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Shabadu
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying. Using them for a week on Teron and such where I have a problem with coming close to the threat cap seemed to make a difference, but I didn't have any hard numbers on it. The single best time I've found to use them is in the first 20 or so seconds of a fight so you start at very low threat with a slightly higher ceiling to deal with WF's unpredictability.

As for my latest experiences, I was forced to twist TA/WF during the last 20% of our latest anetheron to bloodlust my group. I was pretty much capped, while my rogues and warriors were safely behind. Managed to keep DPSing through it coming very close to pulling aggro, and I probably would've without twisting it. I would never consider it for a long term solution, I felt really pressured by the GCD and watching Omen, enough so that it wouldn't be worth the marginal gains.
#333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malacort
Originally Posted by Aett View Post
One thing I've been trying recently, and I haven't really seen it discussed anywhere, is totem weaving (not my name for it, but I like it). I basically use this macro:

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem
I speced into both reduced totem cost and mental quickness and found that when everything is going right with procs and timing, I can sustain totem weaving + flame shock every 12 seconds indefinitely. If I run low on mana I can always just stop shocking or leave Windfury down until shamanistic rage is up again.

My group is almost always me, a warrior, and three rogues. Every so often we get a feral druid. I've gotten no reports of windfury going down while using this macro (when I started I asked my group to pay attention to it), and my group seems to like it quite a bit. I'm going off the assumption that the totem weaving alone would be more raid dps than me using that mana to spam shocks.

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into whether this is truly a good idea. Seems like a better alternative to the flame/earth shock rotation that seems to be the consensus.
I posted these 2 macros in the totem thread, I use them all the time instead of shocking, as I'm there to make the whole group's dps better, not just my own.

MACRO 14 "G/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
MACRO 15 "TA/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Tranquil Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
#334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28548

-800 Threat, sadly it has a 2 minutes cooldown. Seems not worthy like all the trinkets excluding [Prism of Inner Calm] (if/when it's working as intended).
#335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following:
I usually time my Shamanistic Rage in combination with Lust for Battle (278 ap from Bloodlus brooch trinket) and Blood Fury (orc racial, 282 ap). Now Id like to get these three actions into a single macro but failed in typing the proper macro for it so far.
Anyone here can give the right Macro for that?

Note: The order of actions = Blood Fury -> Bloodlust Brooch -> Shamanistic Rage
Bloodlust Brooch is equipped in my first trinketslot.

Thnx!
#336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
#337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Kirion
Originally Posted by songah View Post
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it

Last edited by Kirion : 07/07/07 at 8:13 AM.
#338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it
No, the macro he gave DOES work, as trinkets afaik dont start the gbc
So /cast Blood Fury
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Shamanistic Rage

Thnx for the help!
#339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
#340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
I believe you can customize Scrolling Combat Text to show specific gains always as for example message or critical, making it easier to spot. The readme shows alot of information about this and how to do it.
#341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
If you use SCT, find sct_event_config.lua and writhe in this line:
[21] = {name="!!IMBA T5!!", search="You gain Invigorated", r=0/256, g=256/256, b=100/256, frame=SCT.MSG, class={"Shaman"}},
You need to enable custom events ingame:
/sct menu
find Animation/Misc. Options
#342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying.
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
#343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Idioteque
I find they key to low threat generation is well timed shamanistic rage and totem weaving with it, also dropping traq at the start of the fight for 1-2 mins also helps.
#344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
I've had decent results with just ragging on our tanks till their TPS improves.
#345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
While my raid leader doesn't encourage me to pull aggro and die, often times, on fights like VR its the only thing that can be done. Have to love the Shaman's Feign Death.

Also, up until now I haven't played around with totem weaving, I think I am going to mess around with the Windfury / Tranquil Air mix a bit and see if that helps out at all. Honestly I think the mana could be better spent some where else, but lower DPS is better the no DPS I suppose.
#346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patrik
I used to have great problems with aggro as well of course, but I have to say, that after our recent nerf, our tanks are way ahead of me threat-wise. So if any of you is experiencing this kind of problem now, i'd suggest providing your tanks with link to some basic tanking mechanics forum (or some equip - I didn't believe Stigmata he has no threat problems at all on Maghteridon for example, but after our tanks got few items, its the same for me).

Of course things get nasty on Void Reaver for example, but Big5 combo (BoS, TA, Subtlety enchant, Fetish of the Sand Reaver and Prism of Inner Calm) still works like a charm and I can go full damage.
#347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Theres no need to pull agro as an enhancement shaman fighting Void Reaver simply becouse that encounter isnt about enhancement shamans (or any meleeclass for that matter) maximising their dps - its about a raid surviving while doing a certain amount of stable, reasonable dps.
Threat rly isnt an issue any longer imo, except for a few fights (for example gruul, morogrim, magtheridon) where its there for a reason, namely preventing the fight from becoming even more easymode than it already is.
So for any encounter where you hit a threat-cap: just slow down your dps, its ok, its working as intended and theres no need for more of your dps to win the battle. The majority of current encounters however, does not suffer from any of these threat-issues - sadly enough they have other ways of capping our dps output to a level that is fitting for our role as support-dps.
#348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
I think out of our current killable bosses, Void Reaver is the only one I have any real difficulty with threat. While I can stay alive through 75% of the fight, the last 25% or so I usually start capping out and its harder for the tanks to push past me, not impossible, just harder. Usually at the 25% mark I either remove the Windfury enchants from my weapons or die.

As for fights like Morogrim and Magtheridon, I never have problems with threat, ever. I can push my dps to its max and don't have problems. Of course at the moment my weapons are a bit on the fast side, but even once I have the slower weapons I don't think it will be a problem. We have some pretty amazing tanks.

One thing I had completely forgot about, is the Subtlety enchant to cloak, going to have to get that.
#349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2ikillyouheal
I've glared through this whole thread, but I couldnt find any post(Maybe I'm just too tired for this at the moment) about 4p Gladiator gear(Mostly s2)?

(4) Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Stormstrike ability by 1 sec.

Wouldnt this result in 10% more total SS damage done? Would this be worth considering for a raiding shaman to use?

Anyone that's in a better shape to try to calculate how much DPS this would end up as (Keeping in mind that this would result in raid nature damage getting a bit more boost aswell.)
#350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
#351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
I'd figured as much about the 2p bonus, I guess it's really a matter of where you are in gear progression, (T6 would not be worth switching out, but maybe Karazhan epics?)
#352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patonus
ok, I've read this thread and read some of the player feedback and I just want to confirm what I did was the best choice.

I used to have 1446 AP, 212 HR and 24.45% Crit.

Since then I have changed my gems around to reflect 1472 AP, 188 Hit and 25.99 Crit.


Was this the right choices? (basically changed the +8hit gems to the +4crit/+4str gems) or did I make a mistake at understanding priority stats?
#353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Yes it was the right choice. I actually made the same change recently, I was sitting about 3 hit rating below the Hit Cap (25.6% I believe - with talents of course). Recently changed hit gems for 4crt/4str gems or 8 str gems.

I've had a few people on my server ask me about a certain Hit level they should be aiming for, generally tell them there isn't one but 170-180 is a nice number. Right around the 19-20% hit range. I can't say for sure this is the correct area, a lot of the enhancement shamans here raid with much less and are further progressed then I am, its just what I aim for and like.
#354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Brum
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
You can use Power Auras to display an image on any part of the screen while the buff is active
#355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TotemLover
Removed.

Last edited by TotemLover : 08/08/07 at 5:03 AM.
#356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
its been said wf on warrior/combat rogues are much much more beneficial than wrath of air. If you guys have a enhance sham, put them in the melee group if not i suggest you stay with melee for str and wf but switch out to another group just to drop mana tide.
#357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
#358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
Have you tried my addon?
#359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Your talent tree is a mess. You didn't pick up Unleashed Rage which means you are now a DW DPS shaman that offers little to a group over a resto shaman except that you still can't heal worth a damn because you don't have the deep Resto talents. You need to at a minimum pick up Unleashed Rage. I'd recommend dropping 2H Weapons and Healing Way and probably NS to make up the points you need for that. I can't even fathom raiding without Shamanistic Rage so I'm not sure how you're getting along without it.

Why is the Violet Eye badge the best trinket that you have for that slot? You didn't pick up the Bladefist trinket at least from Hellfire Peninsula?

+150 Health to Chest is a Tank enchant. You need to use +6 Stats instead.

Your weapon enchants are horrid - I'm hoping those are only because you're working on the mats for some real enchants.
#360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Wandre
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Adding to the above I'd look at switching up your offhand to a slow 2.6 speed weapon. You're in around the same boat as me right now having a nice high offhand DPS wep that's too fast. Slow down that offhand so you can stop eating your WF procs. It looks like you do a bit of PVP so I recommend picking up an arena one-hand wep. You'll probably do much closer to rogue DPS with just that.

I've only been enhance for 2 weeks now and my DPS is sorely lacking because of the wep in particular. It's really painful to see WF proc for around 2.5k-3k damage on main hand and a weak 1k-1.5k on offhand. And to see it many times over because of the speed is just that much worse.

Another thing is try gemming up your hit rating. AP is important only if you're actually connecting with your target. Pick up that hit rating to at least 150 through gems if you can and add some AP/crit after you hit that cap. It helped me a LOT.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Tilley
During Karazhan raid's i seem to be in the top 3 of the DPS at all times against opponents that out gear me by a mile. I am currently testing some DPS theory's in blasted lands on some mobs and i am hoping to pick up the PvP 1 hander before the Arena 1 hander to confirm these theory's.

And a reply to the above post, I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed which was my goal. Also the weapon enchants were for free i was helping someone level up while i get my mongoose. My talent tree is such a mess becouse im still required to heal in gruuls where as i DPS in Karazhan so its kind of a mix and match situation at the moment.

Last edited by Tilley : 07/08/07 at 2:23 PM.
#362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Wandre View Post
try gemming up your hit rating.
You need to read a bit more of the testing presented in this thread regarding this.
#363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
I have read that +8 STR Is the most beneficial gem so when i could i tried adding that to my Armour.
#364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Running a test on some mobs in the outland using a DPS meter addon i discovered i did over a 70 second fight.

Gladiator's Left Ripper
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Fist Weapon
95 - 178 Damage Speed 1.50
(91.0 damage per second)
+21 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 9.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 10.
Equip: Increases attack power by 28.

I sustained 919 DPS over the fight.

and with

Colossal War Axe of Power
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Axe
94 - 176 Damage Speed 2.60
(51.9 damage per second)
+38 Attack Power
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 63

I sustained 929 DPS.

All the variables used were the same each fight finishing in exactly 70 seconds.

Disappointing that i wasted my arena points on this weapon before i considered the mechanics of a shaman.

Also i do not have any solid math on the situation however, I noticed that i did roughly 20-40 more DPS on each fight by using stormstrike whenever the Windfury cool down was up instead of just button mashing it.
#365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Just a thought, I would have a discussion with your Raid Leader and officers about your roll in raids. If they are so short on healers that they need to make an Enhancement shaman heal they need to do something about it.

I personally will carry my healing gear around and if they are wiping on something because we are short just a little extra healing I will help out, but I do nothing more then throw an occasional small heal at someone if I see them low most of the time. Using that Hybrid spec, you suck as both a support healer and the support dps roll your suppose to fall into as an Enhancement.

You may be able to put out some great numbers for your own DPS, but not taking Unleashed Rage is just silly, not to mention Shamanistic Rage. Both those talents are pure gold for us, the first one being pure gold for the melee classes in your group.

As for the gems, Inscribed Noble Topaz is decent as well.

Edit: And your an Orc, get some Axes!
#366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
#367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed
Not really. I have around 7k unbuffed and have no trouble, and there are shaman with less than that who raid just fine. Now as I understand it there are some fights in Black Temple that require everyone in the raid to have 9k health minimum, but looking at your gear right now you don't need to be so worried about that.

Your guild is doing no good by having you split your talents so badly between Resto and Enhance. You'd be better off going full Resto if you aren't picking up Unleashed Rage.
#368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
I'm sure the best weapon to use in main hand and offhand is Syphon of the Nathrezim. There was an "Enhancement shaman lootzor" link somewhere to see the best 5 items in each slot.
#369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Thanks for all the great advice i guess its one of those. I am enhancement or i am not raiding situations.. I will begin warming the bench
#370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
#371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
#372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Xoya
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
.. we have .. what's wrong with it?
#373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
I don't think lootzor has any hidden agenda, it just scores items based on the stat values you give it. If there's something lacking in the gear that scores well, you need to look at what you were asking for and adjust your criteria accordingly.
#374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says.
But you'll ask us and blindly take what we say? I'm not sure what the difference is, especially since a lot of guys will simply say "here's the lootzor values I use".
#375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
No, I know what I want. I'm just curious what everyone else's top Items are. I don't see why this is causing an argument/discussion or confusion what I'm asking. Was hoping to start some sort of discussion as to x-item vs x-item and people's reasons for liking one thing over another. We aren't supposed to have all the exact same gear.
#401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
#402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
Well, it depends on the fight. If you're extremly threat-limited, then the reduction means at least 1% more dam that you can do, which is better than 0.6% crit. But on the other hand, the reduction is always wasted, when you're not threat-limited, while 12 agi is not.

Sentinel
#403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Leachim View Post
the main goal of an enhancement shaman is to SUPPORT the MAIN-dps - not to be nr 1 in dmg themselves.
While your first statement may be true its just as bad to ignore the fact that you have the potential to put out large amounts of damage. And I've never asked for buffs but after ankhing I normally receive them if its not a strain.

Dieing during an encounter isn't just about epeen. I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group. Your post above makes it sound like we'd be out of the fight for minutes at a time. At most I've been out of the fight for 4-5 seconds and can then go full bore.
#404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Negative View Post
Wolflord, you're not factoring in the hit you can drop due to your extra +3% hit talent. By dropping that extra 3% hit off your gear in favor of crit/str, you'll be increasing your DPS by more than your shocks would.
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
#405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group.
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.

Wolflord: I have a Muck-Covered Drape enchanted with -2% threat but I never had the feeling that I should use it.
#406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
Dunno if you're still browsing Rob but I would highly suggest you just go balls to the wall on VR pull aggro die and ankh up, you pulling aggro on VR has no raid consequences at all, also tell your healers to keep you up because melee own the VR DPS :]
#407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.

Last edited by Malan : 07/10/07 at 11:09 AM.
#408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
I've never felt the need to use a death as a threat wipe, even on VR. I sustained 742 dps and had to slow down a couple times and forgo shocks, but I didn't feel like a waste of a raid spot because I chose to cut back instead of getting a threat wipe via a death.

Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
#409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
What fights do you find you are threat capped to this extent?

Pre 2.1 I could understand this being an issue, but now, surely not.

Originally Posted by panny View Post
Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
#410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Negative
Originally Posted by Wolflord View Post
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
So what you're saying is that if my gear has a total of 50 hit rating on it, that that is the correct amount to aim for?

If people nowadays are running around with anywhere from 80-120 hit rating, I would say that's a pretty solid number to go off of. By removing your +3% hit from talents, you'd need to stack more on your gear to get the same +hit% as everyone else, thus lowering your other stats.
#411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
Thats exactly what I mean. From the post it sounds like you're saying 'for every 1str/1crit rating you also want 0.7 hit rating' ie that you want to maintain a 'golden ratio' of stats. Whereas in truth we just want every damned point of str/crit we can get our hands on.

ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
#412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wolflord View Post
ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
#413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Pearl
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
#414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
Very true, which is why I come here to learn. All I mean by enlightened is to have seen the depth of good theorycraft into the enhance shaman spec that goes on here. Generally Im only here to lurk and learn, the only thing thats inspired me to post is that I think Enh/Elem gets looked down upon without any real theorycraft to suggest Enh/Resto is any better.
#415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Acks
I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
Itemization - Gems
The +8 Hit gem is the wrong answer for enhance shaman.
Best bets are to use +8 Strength (never the +16 AP) or +4 Str/+4Crit.
Im a new raiding enh shaman (formerly resto). My stats are as follows: 1300 AP, 108 Hit, 22.5% crit. (EDIT: Here's my armory page. Disregard my World Breaker. I raid with Fool's Bane MH and Runic Hammer OH, both with mongoose on them.

Given my current gear, should I get my +hit to 150 first and then worry about AP? Should I get my AP to 1500 and then worry about hit? In my meager mind, it would seem that adding +56 hit (7 +hit gems) would increase my dps more so than 112 AP (7 AP gems).

The lion's share of conversation about stat valuation in this thread pertains to an already well geared Shaman (2200 AP, 25% crit). My question is, which stat first for those of us still in Karazhan epics? And specifically, which for PvE boss fights.. I just finished putting all +8 hit gems in my slots to get my hit rating up to a whopping 168 rating. Then I read the 2nd quote above and banged my head on my keyboard.

So 150 +hit is the benchmark Enh shaman should shoot for, but putting +hit gems in my gear sockets is a waste? Im having to resort to leather gear just to get my hit rating over 100, let alone 150-190.

Here are the 2 scenarios for my current stats:

A. All +hit gems in sockets
1238 AP
164 +Hit
23% Crit

B. All +8 str gems in sockets
1350 AP
108 +Hit
23% Crit

As an aside, this is my first post, so please forgive me if i've done something wrong
#416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
This weighting is on the currently tested maximum contribution for each stat. Lootzor doesn't do haste rating, so you'll need to consider that as well. HasteR is pretty subjective based on your other gear, since you don't want too much haste, especially if you have a dragonspine or BS mace; ideally you don't want to drop your hasted speed below 1.50. For weapons it doesn't take speed into account, so always shoot for the slowest possible weapons you can get for each hand. These values don't consider set bonuses or sta/int, so you'll need to choose for yourself.
#417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The gem choices are simply that choices, Crit, ap, hit, all have different values to different people. My preference at the moment is crit/ap, but my gear is pretty balanced for all 3 main stats.

The patchy dps of a shaman can never be consistent, some times my dps will be at 900 and others it will be at 1100 without changing a single piece of gear, the randomness of WF and which hand it procs on is always going to make it inconsistent.

@Acks, go with what you feel is best, the difference between the two choice will be marginal.
#418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
We've tried a variety of ways, what worked for us was to Seed of Corruption Hydross and keep single target dps on him. Because the Shadow Priests would stay on Hydross anyway and he'd be fully debuffed already, DPS on hydross was higher than it'd be on an add meaning SoC would go off faster. When we tried focusing an add first, I'd get pull aggro on them anyway, so either way, I'd have to hold back.
#419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
#420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;

Do you use KTM on Void Reaver or Omen? I haven't given Omen a shot yet but last night against Void Reaver I was #1 on KTM from about 40% -> 0% and I was waiting for him to hit me and kill me just so I could ankh, but it never happened. I've just stopped worrying about agro on Void Reaver as KTM is never right, heh.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've used both Omen and KTM, neither are anywhere near being accurate on that fight.

Stigmata - there may be others, I've only just started getting into deep SSC with my new guild and we're starting on the rest of TK soon so we'll see how that goes. Those are just 2 fights in recent memory that I know for sure I am capable of ripping aggro pretty early in the fight, I'm sure there are others that I could do the same if I used a few more consumables (heroic/haste pots, drums).
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Yes, Void Reaver and Morogrim are encounters where threat for shamans is indeed an issue. And yes its always good to try to maximise your dps. But again I say encounters like that arent about dps, thats why blizzard made them so agro-sensitive. Furthermore, if were talking about morogrim and voidwalker were talking about 2 very easy encounters who dont require much effort at all (hes called Loot Reaver for a reason)... Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
Id be curious what the difference in your damageoutput is between a Morogrim kill where you suicide-ankh and one where you go fullout but keep your agro always just below that of the mt (getting watertombed is a great way of agro-reduction anyways). Is it realy worth the hassle?

I just get the feeling that some of the posts here claim that suicide-ankhing should be considered a 'standard procedure' for enhancement-dps, where imo its only suitable for a very limited number of encounters and even then it can hardly be labled as required.
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
I was pretty seriously threat capped on both Essence of Desire and Essence of Anger. When you put out a single WF crit of 5410 on Anger, it's pretty easy to see how. Likewise in Hyjal there are a lot of low armor bosses, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal and Archimonde are killer melee fights. I've had aggro issues on Anetheron, and I'd have issues on Archimonde except for the luck I've had with having to avoid shitty melee doomfires and air bursts at the same time as fear keeping me out of range of my tremor. The next cloak I get is getting subtelty, and I'm praying for a Prism of Inner Calm to drop.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Erongg
Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on swapping WF/GOA or WF/Tranq (on threat limited fights). In principle it sounds great - how does it work in practice? Does anyone do it consistently in pretty much every fight? How do you manage your global cooldowns? How does it affect your own DPS? How annoying is it to keep up, and do you use any macros to help?

The upside to totem swapping is pretty great, so I'm curious about people's experiences with it.
#601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Can we safely say that percentage-based haste buffs are added seperately from the haste rating buffs then?
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
#602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
What about DST, does it have it's own buff icon etc, while still being haste rating? Is it added up with the passive haste rating, or applied on it's own?
#603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
#604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3 = 1.9962736/1.5 = 1.3308 = 347.39 rating, -212 for dragonstrike = 135 passive haste needed.

You then get 2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3/1.3305 = 1.5004 speed.

valestalker + mukoa + 2x band of devastation = 36+37+31+31 = 135 passive haste, its almost like its planned :P
#605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
#606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
I hit 1.5 pretty regularly in raids, I however do not have any of the passive haste items yet. Cataclysm flurry (1.35), 2x Mongoose(1.02, 1.02), Dragonstrike, and Drums of Battle(1.278) = 1.504.
#607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
#608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
Probability isn't a strong area for me and this is probably oversimplifying but given 80% uptime on flurry(pater's sim @ 30% crit) and 2ppm for dragonstrike(what I've observed in testing), the likelihood of both buffs being up at the same time is roughly 27%. Throw in 2 mongoose procs at 2ppm and you'll only spend about 7% of your time with all those buffs active.

These are pretty rough numbers though because I don't take into account buffs refreshing themselves or any changes to proc rates due to the extra haste. Still, the numbers should be in the ballpark and I'd maintain that optimizing your gear choices for a very small amount of time is not the best way to plan your upgrades. I know for myself I'll just pick the items that offer the best individual stats and try to make sure my average haste doesn't put me between 1.5 and 1.41.
#609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
#610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
No, it doesn't. It's really quite annoying for tracking Flurry uptime. Also, if you have a Dragonspine Trophy, the buff is called "Haste" as well, so it's quite hard to actually tell how often they proc.

2 PPM sounds okay to me, are you factoring in the fact that all those haste procs increases the chance for further haste procs?

Last edited by panny : 07/16/07 at 7:53 AM. Reason: clarity
#611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Addon for weapon speed tracking?

Is there any addon to track the MH/OH weapon speed over time? Can someone do it?
I'm thinking about a simple addon that summarizes weapon speed data like this:
"Time spent in combat: 300 seconds
Weapon speed, seconds, % of time spent
2.6, 45, 15%
2.0, 240, 80%"
and so on...
I think it would help us a lot to get real tested data.
#612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!
#613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
#614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Gwaihir View Post
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
The first one is the old one, and I had way more hit rating there then I'm using now. I think I was close to hit capped. I suppose that would lead to more white hits, and I had 2 rogues, warrior and a feral druid in my group on the last one. Compared to a warrior+3 rogues last attempt.

So okay, it wasn't only the OH weapon change, but I'm sure that contributed aswell!
#615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
I apologize if this has been said and I just missed it, but I'm wondering where Romulo's Poison Vial ranks in the list of trinkets. Last night, in a bit of testing, the poison proc itself was counting for 2% of my damage (I wasn't using shocks, except to interrupt spells, as I was grinding). I wonder how that compares to other buffs.

Here is my armory to get an idea of where I am gear-wise, as that % would obviously be less if I was doing more damage otherwise:

Ilmaterr's Armory

Hope we can place this somewhere on the list.
Sorry to quote myself here, but I haven't seen any responses. I have been watching this very closely, and even with an elemental shaman in my group last night to eat up the SS buff, I'm still seeing this trinket's procs making up 2% of my damage (though Recount doesn't give me 1/10th of a %, so that's as detailed as I can tell).

On Netherspite, with the Elemental Shaman in the blue beam, I used a different trinket to give him the full SS buff, so I can see that making a difference as far as usefulness, but I still would like to see the difference.
#616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets, to match up with the other ones I posted they would have values of:

DFT = 84
KotS = 92
Romulo's = 49 + proc. This might not be a terrible trinket after all. Assuming 2ppm which I think is a bit conservative with WF it would add on average 9.3dps. You could argue that is equivalent to 129ap, of course it doesn't synergize with our yellow damage(except for possibly stormstrike by a small amount) so it would roughly only add 1/2 the value of straight attack power. I would say a conservative estimate gives it an AEP of 113.5 which is about right for where it drops.
#618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.
I understand the hit rating being low value (and I'm not hurting for HR at all), but if it's making up 2% of my damage, rounded up, simple math would say that this is at least a 2% increase in my damage output. I'm wondering how that compares to an item with an AEP of, say, 107 or 118.

Part of this is my ignorance, but I wouldn't think that 83 AEP (the difference between what the proc'd ability would have to get me vs. using the Abacus) would mean a 2% increase in my damage. Am I wrong? I could be, just asking.
#619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?
They all look good.
#621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
berg
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.

Last edited by berg : 07/16/07 at 3:29 PM.
#622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
More evidence that the itemization team is not working very closely with the mechanics team?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dragonreaper
First off thanks for gathering all this up into one thread, it has helped me alot in dicideing what to do. I do however have a few questions.
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one. So that leaves me with the two crafted weapons. From a stat point I like the stats of the Fel Edged Axe better, I saw a post a while back that showed 2.7/2.2 and 2.7/2.4 have the same chance to steal wf's so the advantege of the Runic Hammer is it's 8.5~ more dmg to wf's and ss, I then ran into another peice of info, I hear the drakefist procs alot, and adding it's proc with flurry the runic hammer goes to 1.43speed, with mongoose it's still at 1.414 but a 2nd proc puts it at 1.38, compairing it to the fel edged which goes to 1.32 is this loss enough of a difference to make up for the 8.5~dmg loss to ss and wf's?, Also I seem to see don't use under speed 2.4 alot, is there a specific reason for that vaule or is it just a general good vaule to tell people to stay slow/slow?
#624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Thanks for the help on Romulo's Poison. That is more what I was expecting. I'm going to try to test out Abacus versus it (IF THE ABACUS WOULD EVER FREAKING DROP!!!!) and I'll let you know what it shows.

I have a few more questions I'm hoping someone can answer:

- If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?

- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP, and secondly, it seems against your point right after that:
Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.
My question is, has there been any work done to see what a more equal distribution of stats would give for the benefit of each incremental point? Though I would have a hard time believing that AP could be UNDER-valued in that model, I would be very curious to see if these weightings were constant for every level of gearing.

- Ring Enchants: +2 weapon damage or +4 to all stats? The mats for +4 to all stats are INSANE for how small the buff is, and I'm not sure +2 weapon damage, with flurry, SS, and WF wouldn't add up to more over time. Any thoughts? With slow weapons preferred for Shaman, I would think that would especially de-value this enchant.

- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.

Thanks for the help, sorry for all the questions.
#625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Dragonreaper View Post
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
Flurry is a 30% attack speed increase, but the way attack speed increases work are like this: Weapon speed = Weapon Speed * 1/(100% + 30%). That's the same thing as multiplying by 0.769, which is why you're observing a 23.1% decrease in weapon speed.
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one.
Why would you rule out the blue offhands just for having less DPS? The first post of this thread goes into a lot of detail explaining that slow offhands are necessary, regardless of DPS. Anyway, your only realistic option besides blues is the Runic Hammer (again check main post). That said, there's absolutely no reason the arena weapon shouldn't be an option this season. At 300 points a week (easily attained by a mediocre 2v2 team or a horrible 5v5 team) you'll end up with the Cleaver or Pummeler in 9 weeks.
#626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ujai
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!
As you mentioned the HWL Cleaver...I'm really interested in how this does against a 71.x 2.6 blue offhand or the FEB. Mainly because I PvP now more than I used to to get either the epic lvl 60 or blue lvl 70 weapon, yielding FEB at the moment.
I don't really know which PvP weapon is better, though; arena offhand will still take a while to accomplish.
Especially as I've read among the official forums that HW Cleaver is supposed to be better than the S1 arena offhand...


/edit:
@ Ilmater: These values are raidbuffed and are in no way off. 380 BS, 220 BoM, 196 SoE, +10% UR and you will probably be over the said 2200 AP.

Last edited by Ujai : 07/16/07 at 3:47 PM.
#627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Azide
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
.. - Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP ..
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.

My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.

Last edited by Azide : 07/16/07 at 3:27 PM. Reason: typo
#628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS???
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
#629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Grundar
Hi, this is my first post here, been reading awhile. I enjoy and learn from the posts. Unfortunately I have a long way to go gear wise to get where most of you guys are.

The question on ring enchants reminded me of a something I had searched for but not found regarding meta gems.


I have pre kara gear but DW fel edged battleaxes. AP is about 800 depending on where I am and what I am doing, crit about 20% to hit gear about 5%. So I am nowhere near where you guys are and my concerns are different but I hope to have those concerns in the future.

Anyway I figure I hit about 1 time a second in combat.

That means a ring enchant would be adding 2dps each or 4 dps for 2 rings. My meta gem is +3 damage and chance of stun. I looked but could not find information on the chance of stun on this site or information on the way the +damage on this gem compares to other meta gems.

If I recall correctly about 14 AP is equal to 1 dps. Each ring enchant is equivalent to 28 ap or 14 strength. The meta gem leaving aside the stun would be 42 AP or 21 str. This seems pretty strong to me but I have not seen anything about them.

I am an enchanterer but use the +spell damage since we have not been able to get that far into kara yet.

Last edited by Grundar : 07/16/07 at 5:14 PM.
#630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Azide View Post
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.

My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.
Ignore
#631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I would wager that most if not all groups have DPS warriors, certainly. Who is going to battle shout the rogues? (You have those, right?). Blessing of might is another hefty chunk. If you can only get one blessing, in general I would go with might. The exception being Hydross, lootreaver, and Leo, where salv would be a must. If you are pulling agro off your tank on things like mag, karathress, tidewalker, or lurker, I would take a serious look at your tank's threat generation before questioning yourself. (Or to make it a no brainer, use a druid.).

You can and should also pick up AP buffs from food (20 STR food) and a Flask, depending on what you are raiding. You can also keep in mind that your enchants are a place to make up for lacking stats. If you need more AP, get crusader. It procs like mad on a shaman, and double procs are quite frequent. I checked the WWS from the last morogrim I did with double crusader, and I show myself gaining Holy Strength 24 times during the fight. It could be slightly higher due to refreshing procs, but that still puts it at 3 PPM. (The fight was 8 minutes.) But, I use Crusader to make up for a slightly lower (1400 ish unbuffed) AP because I have higher crit from gear (About 30%), and because I'm cheap- I specced enhance for a few weeks since we were long on healers and short on DPS. If your stats are the other way around, get mongoose.
#633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Liking the work you guys are doing with the Haste rating, definetly lots of food for thought.

The question I have, since my guild is currently working on Kael, is which legendary should I be using?

Devastation vs. the infinity blade MH. Seems like I do HORRIBLE dps with the two-hander, and almost seems worth it to just use my regular set-up (Wicked Edge/2.6 S2 Axe) or switch the wicked edge for an infinity blade. The speed boost seems useful for running from Sanguinar to Telonicus, then to Kael to interrupt that potentially lethal first fireball, as well as running to eggs. On the other hand, I'd be running slower, but doing more consistent and reilable damage.

I have heard Stig say on multiple occassions he uses Devastation, thoughts?
I use the dagger simply because the axe is the last weapon we kill whereas the dagger is generally the second. ( It's supposed to be the third but the rogues and I would rather kill the dagger than the healing mace.. >_> ) I've been really satisfied with my dps output with it. Although we're still learning the fight so I find myself throwing a ton of heals during the hectic transition from the weapons to the advisers so I lack the mana to dps at full.

Boy would I love to see the big numbers that axe could generate. Every once in a while I run around in raids with my Gorehowl out just to see big numbers, it puts a big smile on my face But that is for after we get the fight down pat.
#634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
#635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.
Yeah, Rob's post answers that question. Sorry, I completely forgot about SoE and UR, and was just looking at character sheet AP. Ridiculous. That's why I don't figure these things out for myself... keep missing things. :P
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:

169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack

So every SS, that's:

253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS

Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.

Now, given that the MH procs WF more often, that's 28 more damage every WF proc (14 average damage difference every hit, x2 hits). Since it can't possibly proc more than once every 3 seconds (obviously that's over-rated), that is less than 10 dps increase, so you're right, I'd say there's no way it could be better than Cleaver/green combo.

But I was also kind of curious how close it was, because if it's a couple of dps difference (not scalable), then I'll let someone else have it. Also, I'm wondering if I'm accounting for everything (so many freaking procs on chance with shaman that I always for get things) so I can make the same calculation for a 71.7 dps OH. Assuming my math was right above, then you would even prefer Decap/Cleaver to Cleaver/Harvester. The math comes out to 1.9 dps increase from SS, 7.5 dps from the greater added dps, and I doubt the 28 extra damage from every WF proc on the MH (and lower dps from every WF proc on the OH which I left out above), it's still a good dps increase.

So unless I missed the Decap/Cleaver combination would be prefereable to anything short of two Cleavers.
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
After adding everything out and factoring UR, I realize where I missed the ball. I was assuming that the calculation was using pre-UR calcs, and that would make a big difference.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
I keep hearing about WWS... I'll get it tonight. Hope I can figure out how to view its results.
#636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Gwaihir View Post
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
#637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.

The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
#638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
You don't need hit to increase your rage generation, you will only need hit to have more white damage/windfury proccs.
That are big differences from warrior (rage) and rogue (combat potency talent) points of view. It might only be more important if you can achieve a dragonspine trophy.

All three stats scale well, but attackpower gives you the best reward (check the linked thread for further details and formulas) at this certain point. You will hit over 9/10 attacks with 22% hit (including 5% dodge), but crit will help you further with flurry uptime and attackpower with manaregen from your shamanistic rage talent.

To the 2200 ap discussion, Malan added some explanation, maybe you should reread posting #1 from time to time or have a quick look at this quotation for finally clarification:

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
But 2200 AP is a *lot*, how can I achieve that?
Well lets take a look at buffs.
  • MotW (w/o Talent) - 28 AP
  • Strength of Earth (w/ Talent) - 200 AP
  • Blessing of Might (w/o Talent) - 220 AP
  • Battleshout - 305 AP (w/o Talent)
  • Strength Food - 40 AP
  • Elixirs/Flasks - 110 AEP (Agility elixir) or 120 AP (Relentless Assault)
2200 - 28 - 200 - 22 - 305 - 40 - 110 = 1297 AP that you would need on gear, and this isn't even accounting for unleashed rage! Its not hard to achieve 2200 AP in a raid, and once you factor in Unleashed Rage, Blessing of Kings and people putting talents points into these buffs, you will easily exceed 2200 AP.

That said, Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.

Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. Reference this thread around pages 12-14-ish for discussion of hit rating. Many of us are running with significantly lower levels of hit rating and seeing very large DPS gains.
#639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
They don't suggest you should be worried about Hit at all, the complete opposite in fact.

Oh and as for the quote above, I only just added that this afternoon after this page of discussion came up.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Myul
Ah, just read your last edit was yesterday, didn't realised it's right after midnight here.

But i've got two another questions:
1. Doesn't that difference between hwl cleaver and feb does result only from the non-existing speed normalisation on several instant attacks, does it?

138-207 dmg (172 avg) High Warlord Cleaver
128-239 dmg (183 avg) Fel Edged Battleaxe

2. I'm confused about that (maybe i missed the discussion in this or the other thread about it?) passage:
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
But what about Main Hands and Off Hands in Black Temply/Hyjal that are 2.7 and 2.8 speed?
Jury is still out on the most effective way to place a 2.7 and 2.8 in your MH/OH (especially if you still have a 2.6 in the other hand) and I'll update when we have more conclusive evidence. For now, go test it yourself!
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?

Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 5:47 PM. Reason: grammar
#641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:

169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack

So every SS, that's:

253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS

Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.
If Decap MH + Cleaver OH is better on white DPS it will also always be favored for yellow DPS -- there's no reason why the MH will proc WF much more often -- you said yourself that they're the same speed. Similarly, if Decap MH + Cleaver OH is a bigger pair of white swings than Cleaver MH + Green OH, it will always be a bigger pair of yellow swings (Stormstrike). See why it's easy now?
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.

The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
They are not "equilibrium" values, they are values at which the formula 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating holds true. So, no, hit is not dramatically increased in value relative to AP/crit.
#642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?
As Malan said, the jury's still out -- nobody's yet developed a convincing closed-form model, and nobody's tested this in practice. If you'd like to simulate this, you can download the Java sim and try it yourself.
#643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I really need a better way of wording that whole "equilibrium" bit, I don't think the point of the values is really explained very well.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Mmm maybe Im missing out on something here, but wouldnt 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft be the weapon combination to go for in BT content, outperforming the combo with Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft as mh?
#645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
I assume you're using the dagger offhand then?
#646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Myul
Originally Posted by Leachim View Post
Mmm maybe Im missing out on something here, but wouldnt 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft be the weapon combination to go for in BT content, outperforming the combo with Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft as mh?
The axe has better stats in my opinion (allmost 2% hit and a bunch of stamina), which you might also want to weight into your comparison. For you, as an orc shaman, your racial with +5 axe weapon skill comes into account, to.
It should really depend on the ppm of the mace weapon procc (it's only 120 damage per applying, not counting resists).
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?

The mace should be harder to get (rogues could also want it, but the axe it not really interesting for hunters).

I guess, your upgrade from an arena weapon to the axe on your mainhand might be noticeable, but shouldn't be a clear jump. "Upgrading" from a blacksmith weapon to the axe could be a downgrade in the worst case (losing 0.1 attack speed). But i think, from our knowledge point nowadays, the mace should allways be superior in your offhand then the axe and any other choice do.

Is a combination of 2.8/2.8 really better then 2.6/2.8 regarding stealing wf proccs from your mainhand will need further ingame testing (or java simulations, but those data should be taken carefully).
Chosing between weapons with same statpoints would be an easy decision (the slower one of course!), but in this special situation, it will really depend on the mace procc.

Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 7:07 PM. Reason: typo
#647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
Sorry if this has been posted already, but has an analysis of the Crystalforged Trinket been done? Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
#648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
Who wants to start a petition to change the 1h sword into a mace :P

Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Sorry if this has been posted already, but has an analysis of the Crystalforged Trinket been done? Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
Do a search instead of being sorry :P [Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70

Also, something amusing but completely unrelated: last Lurker, my crit rate for white damage and Windfury were 33% and 32%. For Stormstrike it was 18%.
#649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
I assume you're using the dagger offhand then?
No, my dagger skill is like 320ish so I stick with my normal weapons.

Originally Posted by Myul View Post
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?
Getting the weapon first would be nice :p
#650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Maltesers
Been in the same boat with deciding between 2x syphon, or a rising tide mh with syphon oh. I attempted to run the sim a little while ago to help decide, here are the results I got:

------------------------------------ ESCS -------- RISING TIDE 2.6 and SYPHON 2.8
-- INPUT DATA --
Player AP=2400, H=28.0%, C=30.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=208-313/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA --
MH Wh: Swings=169292 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.0%), C=(29.9%), H=(38.6%)
OH Wh: Swings=156901 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.0%), H=(38.6%)
MH WF: Swings= 70228 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
OH WF: Swings= 58632 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(30.0%), H=(63.3%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
OH SS: Swings= 33702 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(30.0%), H=(63.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 327636547 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[378-464], C=(51%)[1007-1237], H=(33%)[503-619]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.5%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(51%)[521-688], H=(33%)[260- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[1600-1922], H=(52%)[800-961]
OH WF: Dmg=(11.9%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[934-1167], H=(51%)[467-584]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.8%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[1007-1237], H=(52%)[503-619]
OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[521-688], H=(52%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings: MH=80.5%, OH=80.4%

DPS = 910.1

------------------------------------ ESCS ------ AND SYPHON 2.8 with SYPHON 2.8
-- INPUT DATA --
Player AP=2400, H=28.0%, C=30.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA --
MH Wh: Swings=161203 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.0%), H=(38.5%)
OH Wh: Swings=161203 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.1%), H=(38.5%)
MH WF: Swings= 64608 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(30.1%), H=(63.3%)
OH WF: Swings= 60434 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(30.3%), H=(63.4%)
OH SS: Swings= 33719 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.9%), H=(63.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 334966267 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.1%) | G=(16%)[391-516], C=(51%)[1041-1375], H=(33%)[521-688]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[196-258], C=(51%)[521-688], H=(33%)[260- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.2%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[1664-2130], H=(51%)[831-1065]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.0%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[934-1167], H=(52%)[467-584]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.3%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[1042-1375], H=(51%)[521-688]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.9%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[521-688], H=(52%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings: MH=88.9%, OH=88.9%

DPS = 930.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously this doesn't take in to account the syphon's proc but at least from this data syphon came out above regardless.

Last edited by Maltesers : 07/17/07 at 3:38 AM.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;

Do you use KTM on Void Reaver or Omen? I haven't given Omen a shot yet but last night against Void Reaver I was #1 on KTM from about 40% -> 0% and I was waiting for him to hit me and kill me just so I could ankh, but it never happened. I've just stopped worrying about agro on Void Reaver as KTM is never right, heh.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've used both Omen and KTM, neither are anywhere near being accurate on that fight.

Stigmata - there may be others, I've only just started getting into deep SSC with my new guild and we're starting on the rest of TK soon so we'll see how that goes. Those are just 2 fights in recent memory that I know for sure I am capable of ripping aggro pretty early in the fight, I'm sure there are others that I could do the same if I used a few more consumables (heroic/haste pots, drums).
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Yes, Void Reaver and Morogrim are encounters where threat for shamans is indeed an issue. And yes its always good to try to maximise your dps. But again I say encounters like that arent about dps, thats why blizzard made them so agro-sensitive. Furthermore, if were talking about morogrim and voidwalker were talking about 2 very easy encounters who dont require much effort at all (hes called Loot Reaver for a reason)... Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
Id be curious what the difference in your damageoutput is between a Morogrim kill where you suicide-ankh and one where you go fullout but keep your agro always just below that of the mt (getting watertombed is a great way of agro-reduction anyways). Is it realy worth the hassle?

I just get the feeling that some of the posts here claim that suicide-ankhing should be considered a 'standard procedure' for enhancement-dps, where imo its only suitable for a very limited number of encounters and even then it can hardly be labled as required.
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
I was pretty seriously threat capped on both Essence of Desire and Essence of Anger. When you put out a single WF crit of 5410 on Anger, it's pretty easy to see how. Likewise in Hyjal there are a lot of low armor bosses, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal and Archimonde are killer melee fights. I've had aggro issues on Anetheron, and I'd have issues on Archimonde except for the luck I've had with having to avoid shitty melee doomfires and air bursts at the same time as fear keeping me out of range of my tremor. The next cloak I get is getting subtelty, and I'm praying for a Prism of Inner Calm to drop.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Erongg
Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on swapping WF/GOA or WF/Tranq (on threat limited fights). In principle it sounds great - how does it work in practice? Does anyone do it consistently in pretty much every fight? How do you manage your global cooldowns? How does it affect your own DPS? How annoying is it to keep up, and do you use any macros to help?

The upside to totem swapping is pretty great, so I'm curious about people's experiences with it.
#426SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Its discussed on page 14 of this thread.
#427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
On a fight like Void Reaver you definitely do not want to be holding back a lot. This is something we learned back when we were working on Broodlord Lashlayer. Being more careful with your threat and thus killing the mob slower will just ensure that someone pulls aggro and dies, probably mutiple someone's.

Knock Away effects like VR's are percentage based, so the higher your tanks threat is, the more threat he loses each time he gets hit by Knock Away. What this means is eventually the threat of your tanks will plateau, and if the mob is still alive at this point you are about to have a bunch of people overaggro and die. The best way to not overaggro on VR is to kick the shit out of him before this happens.

Normally on Void Reaver I go all out, including haste pots etc, sustaining 1000+ dps for the duration of the fight. Sometimes I'll pull aggro around 10%, but I am certain this wouldn't happen if other people were doing slightly more damage instead of worrying about aggro, because if I can go all out for 90% of the fight without overaggroing, every other class can go all out the entire time.
#428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
For void reaver, are people putting an enh shaman into the MT group for WF/UR? Our tank group usually has 3 warriors in it, and I'm thinking it might be more worthwhile for the tanks to get WF given that threat is all wacky. Another thing about VR I haven't had a chance to test yet, are tauren at the edge of melee range counted as melee threat or ranged threat? I routinely sit outside pounding but inside melee range.
#429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Melee are good on VR so you want your enhancement shaman with the melee group. However, you definitely want to put a resto shaman in the tank group because Windfury is especially good against mobs that require multiple tanks.

Normally the MT doesn't benefit a whole lot from Windfury Totem because they will have a lot of rage(in some cases infinite rage) just from being hit by the mob. On VR you're going to have a couple of tanks that aren't currently being attacked, so the extra rage from Windfury is much more noticable to them.

As far as I know Tauren at max melee range are still considered in melee range. Also, be careful with outranging the Pounding, because he can target you with an Arcane Orb there.
#430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
A question about hit rating:

So according to the formula, 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR. Does that always apply, or does that only apply if your % hit chance is at a high level?

The reason I ask is, I used a lot of Glinting Noble Topaz in my gear to get my hit rating up to the 204 it is now. The formula noted for those calculations was with a 22% hit chance, and I'm at that right now (9% from talents, ~13% from hit rating, so roughly 22% hit). Should I instead go back and socket with +8 STR or +4 CR/+4 STR?

I was always under the impression that I should focus on hit rating UNTIL I got to 200+ hit rating, but this seems to suggest that's incorrect.
#431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
#432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
That's just mind-boggling. It seems that since you get 1% hit increase from only 16 points of hit rating (thus more chances to proc WF) vs. 1% crit increase from 22 points of crit rating, that hit rating would indeed make a bigger difference until you got to the cap. Apparently I was wrong.

Also, I'm assuming Agility would be valued simply at 25/22 on that scale, correct? So:

1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.13 AGI = 1.43 HR

Is that right?

Last edited by Ilmater : 07/10/07 at 2:57 PM.
#433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
25.5% is the hit cap against level 73 mobs.

As for what amount of hit to use, I'm still at 190ish + 9% from talents, others use way less, I'm comfortable with my present amount, and although I am tempted to drop more, I can't convince myself to do so...yet.
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
#434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
Stig also runs with tsunami/dragonstrike, so hit would be pretty important for procs as well no?
#435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
- 5 minutes = 300 Seconds
- 2 second swing = 150 swings * 2 = 300 (assuming 2.6 second weapons but sped up a bit to around 2 on average for various reasons - to go more detailed would require a proper simulation)
- Average value of a swing = 350 hit/800 crit -> 2 hits per crit ~ 1500/3 swings
- 3% of 300 swings is 9 swings -> 4500 white damage -> almost 2 solid chances at a WF -> assume 2 crit 2 non crit on - average of 600 and 1200 = 3600 (this is high end assuming high chance of crit and 2 windfurys)

3% hit over 300 swings (150 per hand) =~ 8100 with VERY favorable conditions.

Earth Shock:

(From looking at a couple parses with my stats)
- 850 average non crit shock, 1000 on crit (these weighted slightly lower then average)
- 5% less damage would be 808 and 950? (I'm not sure how the 5% multiplier works on crits)

- 300 seconds untalented = 50 shocks
- 5% of 50 for crit is 2.5 -> assume 3
- 47 shocks, 3 crit untalented
- 83% base spell hit +3% from resto on a 73 mob -> 43 shocks
- Assume all 3 of our crit shocks crit.
- 40 shocks, 3 crit untalented with hit chance calculated

- 300 seconds talented = 60 shocks
- 5% of 60 for crit is 3
- 57 shocks, 3 crit talented
- 83% base spell hit on 73 -> 49.8 shocks
- 46 shocks, 3 crit talented

- Damage difference is 40*(850-808)+3*(1000-950)+6*850 = 6930


Now, this is assuming a 5 minute uninterrupted period under optimimum conditions.

- 300 white swings across both hands assuming optimimum windfury procs in the difference period.
- 50-60 Shocks by using every cooldown.

So optimum here is at about:
-- 60 swings/minute
-- 12 shocks/minute (5s), 10 shocks/minute (6s)


So here's the interesting part -

The closest high dps uptime fight I can think of off the top of my head is probably Morogrim or Void Reaver, so I grabbed the top EJ parses and took Shabadu as an example:

Morogrim: 342s presence (5.7m)
- 262 white swings (45.96 swings/min)
- 22 shocks (3.86 shocks/min)

Void Reaver: 298s presence (4.97m)
- 203 white swings (40.85 swings/min)
- 29 shocks (5.84 shocks/min)


This tells us that cooldown isn't necessarily an issue as much as either threat or other such conditions. Or it's just really hard to maintain a full shock uptime. My own numbers for fights aren't nearly as good on uptime as Shabadu's are, so I need to work on that, or wait till my tanks build aggro a bit faster.

I'm still thinking this needs more analysis, as the amount of extra damage from the shocks, along with the faster cooldown when you have limited dps windows can make a significant difference I imagine. Also, there are at least a couple fights where I'm on interrupt duty and it's made a noticeable difference.

Anyway I have some work to do, so if someone wants to tear this stuff apart a bit more (as msot of these numbers are pulled out of my nether regions), please do. This topic needs more discussion then off the cuff "resto is better because +hit", that's the same path people went down when we first got DW for gear in general. My main view right now is elemental hybrid is better up to a certain gear point, and then the 3% hit will win out from a dps standpoint over extended fights due to AP difference. Where that breakpoint is is the question. Elemental is a flat 140+ dps if used consistantly, but will never scale upwards with enh gear.
#726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
berg
Edit: Removed some unsupportable data.

Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.

Which sim used is irrelvant I am sure they all have code like this

If (ssCD < ssDelay) // ssDelay usually 10.0, ssCD is time since last ss.
{
//reset ssCD
//do the swings.
}

turn this into
if (ssCD < ssDelay)
{
if (bWfCd == false) // add this line with whatever var they are using to track the wfcd.
{
//reset cd
// do the swings
}
}

and rerun the sims. Then everyone can use whatever sim they prefer. I think they would all show a greater than 1% gain just by waiting for the cooldown to expire every time.

Last edited by berg : 07/20/07 at 1:33 PM.
#728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I've lost a bit of steam... the problem with flurry makes me think that it's a pointless exercise. Until I have a good model for that, I'm pretty much disgusted with the whole thing.

I only like models where I can test game against reality and say "look, they match!"

edit - Berg - if you have a whole armory, including talents, how well does your sim match actual dps tests? If you know something I don't, I'm all ears.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue
Disquette - shaman
#729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nanahanna
I'm looking for a few opinions here. There has been an argument between a few members in my guild over twisting GoA and WF totems or keeping WF down in melee heavy groups. One side says the DPS gained from buffing the party by twisting overweighs the gains of a full shock rotation and holding SS for the WF cooldown, the other side says the opposite is more total DPS. I'm leaning more towards a full shock rotation & waiting for the WF cooldown. Anyone dug deep into this?
#730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Knocksville
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).

__________________
Male Enhancement.

Last edited by Knocksville : 07/20/07 at 2:16 PM.
#732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Knocksville View Post
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).
So do people actually try this in raids? I can't imagine trying to do totem twisting on any encounters that require decent mobility and interrupting from shocks. If anyone has had success with it, I'd like to know.
#733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
I've been totem cycling during raids, it's quite simple with castsequence macro (/castsequence reset=10, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem). Sustaining shocks is nearly impossible unless you get JoW on your target. You can do a shock once per "rotation" of totems until you've used your first rage, then you have to stick to stormstrike and totems almost exclusively, the 2 minutes feels like an eternity when you're dropping mana that fast. I would definitely say it's worth it to totem cycle, it's a definite dps loss (~6% if you count the GoA you are gaining) but the additional agility for your group outweighs your small margin of dps loss.
#734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Knocksville
It is only really effective in situations where the following parameters are met:

1. You aren't moving, and if you are, it isn't very far.
2. You have extremely high DPS rogues in your group.
3. You need to burn something down.
4. The fight doesn't punish you for having low mana.

I run the SS-WF-GoA macro on Teron Gorefiend where, unless I get ghosted, my job is to stand there and DPS. WWS for Teron in which no DPS classes had to kill constructs.

__________________
Male Enhancement.
#735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Upgrading your off hand is a huge huge deal. Your DPS will increase by leaps and bounds by using the season 2 arena weapons in your OH.
Glad to read this because i was planning to make Drakefist MH and S2(2.6) axe OH. It is very hard to think of putting the higher DPS weapon in my OH vs the T2 drakemaw hammer in your MH. Shaman are in the same position hunters were before and somewhat still slower is just always better.
#736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Although it took a bit getting used to, totemweaving has become second nature to me. I totemweave WF & GoA all the time now even in 5 mans. I have the macro set up independent of my SS however and I like it that way. I've also found weaving WF & TA helpful when beginning a fight or to help lower the TPS of my group if they're getting too high.

Although I have a general idea of when I need to recycle the totems, I'm going to try and set up a custom timer using the Ace2 mod Quartz. I already use it as a castbar and GCD timer.

Depending on the fight, I'm also finding that I need to be more conservative with my shocks but most of the time, a SR + mana pot is enough to keep me going. Talents to reduce mana cost on totems is a must (Mental quickness & Totemic Focus). My biggest concern right now is sometimes the totem cycling coincides exactly with my SS CD and GCD screws me into either delaying my SS or delaying the totem cycle. I wish totems were on a seperate GCD or had no GCD at all.

I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
#737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
I was going to post this exact sentiment earlier but figured I'd be accused of beating a dead horse. They really cannot have intended people to do this type of totem stacking given how the totem elements work.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
Well, it's a possible mechanics bug that works in the favor of the player, so we can expect a fix sooner rather than later probably.
#739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Areus
I have been toying around with using the Totem Twisting method for my 2 rogue, 1 arms, feral druid group, and they love it. Malan, in order to not have WF expire change the text in the Macro that was posted here to "reset=8" instead of the default 9 that was originally listed in the post.

I did the same trials in Shat that you mentioned and that was an issue that I noticed as well. It really does not take as much concentration to Twist as you think. You get into a mindset after about a week and it becomes natural about knowing when you click the Twisting Macro twice to relay the totems.

I ussually run with 8.7k Mana buffed, and in order to sustain this the order I use is WF->GoA -> SS -> FS. By using Flame Shock it lowers the mana requirement cause it is only required every 12 seconds. If I get down to 1/4 mana and have no UR or Pot timer up, I just resort to the totem twist and SS until one timer comes up. If you can convince your paladins to keep JoW up on the Mob, mana will almost never be an issue.
#740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
I was using a SS->WF->GoA cycle and that was just not working for me since it was dependent on getting that SS off before the rest of the cycle. I think I'll try switching to a WF->GoA->SS cycle, or WF->SS->GoA. Overall tho, I hate doing it. I find it hard to focus on what's going on around me when I'm stressing over making sure the totems go down when they have to. I'm mostly hoping it gets "fixed" so I don't feel guilty for not doing it.
#741SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hyan
Where would I go about finding the simulator to check what items optimize my dps?
#742SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
The first post of this very thread.
#743SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Locovaca
Im curious as to peoples thoughts on the effect of using a higher dps, fast weapon with another weapon buff in the offhand.

At some point, Slow/Fast(Purple) WF/FT has to be better than Slow/Slow(green) WF/WF.

I know the OP says to move to an AH green rather than an epic dagger, but I find it hard to believe that the dps difference cant be made up by sheer DPS on the offhand with Flametongue helping as well. Not to mention the MH will now be unencumbered by off hand WFs...
#744SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I think we are starting to get to the point of going in endless circles with this post. There are only so many times that someone can do the math on fast offhands with our horrible imbues like FT and rockbiter- It's already been tested in the numerous other threads that gave birth to this one, and the answer is still WF/WF with slow weapons.
#745SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
I think people who say "I use Flametongue because my dagger is fast!" don't really understand how Flametongue works.
#746SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
#747SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dakashi
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)
I downloaded Pater's java sim, and changed the lines that fired off SS to the following:

		
if (t >= SSLastT + SS_COOLDOWN_DURATION) {
    if(SPAM_SS || !(t < WFLastT + WF_COOLDOWN_DURATION)) {
        Stormstrike();
        UpdateStats();
    }
}
Then I made a SPAM_SS constant, which can be true or false. If it's true, it SS's whenever it's lit. If it's false, it waits until WF is off cooldown.

I used the standard stats that come with the Java sim, and the standard equipment (gladiator OH, Decapitator MH). All I changed was the SS latency to 10.5 for a little more realism.

I ran a few sims, and my results were:

Spamming SS whenever it's lit: Avg DPS = 772
Waiting on SS until WF is off cooldown: Avg DPS = 791

So, according to Pater's sim (which, by the way, is pretty sweet), waiting for WF to be up before firing SS seems to be a decent DPS increase. Would be interesting to see if this is true in real life as well.

__________________
The world can't end today because it's tomorrow in Australia
#748SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Originally Posted by oogg View Post
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
#749SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by oogg View Post
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
If you need to drop aggro and "shaman vanish" isn't a reasonable option, you're much better off to stop shocking than to reduce your melee DPS, due to the 15% threat reduction from Spirit Weapons. Ankhing up is quite reasonable on Void Reaver which is really the only fight where this is a severe problem. (Hydross is very aggro-sensitive too, but that's because of the constant drops... I don't see weapon swapping as effective there.)
#750SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg
Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
#751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stander
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
#752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?
#753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Back to the totem twisting, I use this macro:
MACRO 16777255 "AGI" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
END
-Question mark icon helps a lot, the icon of the macro will be replaced to the spell what's next
-reset=8 helps to put down windfury in time (before the effect goes off from the weapons) but it works only if you don't spam the macro. It resets only after 8 seconds of the last push.
-If I can't use stormstrike in time I press "alt" and the hotkey of the macro so I skip a stormstrike and jump to the first spell: Windfury Totem

This works quite well for me, I've been using this for like two weeks. My melee group is very happy and it is an upgrade to my party's dps, though my dps goes lower. Of course I can't use totem wtisting on every fight, but there are quite a lot where it's a big boost.
Malan: if you keep spamming this macro and you can cast stormstrike every time it has cooled down the wf effect will be always up on the weapons of your group, I tested it and it's working fine.
#754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
#755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by syrixx View Post
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
1 Strength is 2 AP without buffs, so for points considered, Strength will be considered double as valuable as AP. It makes absolutely no sense for strength to be half value for AP. I think you might have been thinking in reverse in terms of math.
#756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by syrixx View Post
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
Just offhand, STR can be modified by Kings, AP can't. If you haven't included that, I'm sure there are 100 other variables that are also left out of these formulae.
#757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Pretty much, after modified by kings, you only need 22 effective agility (24.2 after) to almost reach 25 actual agility. As a result, its easier to view 1 agi as 1 crit rating. If you want to be really precise, its slightly worse
#758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
No I hadn't thought about kings, and yes I got my str/ap backwards. Thank you

__________________
#759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?

The answer is: Attacktable, that means for non special attacks they are all dependent.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
Originally Posted by Stander View Post
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
#761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
On VR I hold back shocks and Shamanistic Rage for the first 30 to 60 seconds, then go all-out; last time I popped heroism at like 20%, pulled aggro at 10%, died, ankhed up and finished it off. Besides 1 prot warrior we used 2 ferals, which helps IMO, they have better threat gen when they don't have aggro since they do more white damage. Parse if anyone cares.
#762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Serrano
First of all I must say reading this thread has been very interesting... all the discussion of weaponspeed now lead to this question:

My weapons at the time are Black Planar Edge (2.7 attackspeed)in the MH and the Season2 Arena weapon (2.6) in the OH. Today I got myself the Mace "Fool´s bane" (2.6) from Illhoof and now I am wondering if the 4 dps deficit to my Black Planar Edge is compensated by the 2.6 attackspeed which better matches my OH so my MH WF proccs are not eaten by my OH. Or is the little slower attackspeed of my MH of no importance and I have leveled blacksmithing for a reason?

Please let me know what you think...
#763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by Hulkling View Post
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
Wouldn't it make much more sense to either:

a) sub in some arcane resist gear,
b) periodically drop a few heals (terokk's gavel!),
c) twist WF/Tranq Air

and continue to use optimal weapon imbues?

This way you add some extra value while keeping your dps at its maximum.
#764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
On VR I:
1) Pull aggro
2) Put on my shield
3) Dodge, dodge (double Mongoose)
4) Eat the knockback for a free deaggro!
#765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
I've managed to do that with Gruul, but not Void Reaver, yet. Just stopped attacking on Gruul when I reached 2nd aggro, dodged 4 hateful strikes before the next warrior in line caught up. Void Reaver I usually just "vanish" and keep going after. Our Paladins are pretty good about rebuffs, especially Salvation on myself and our Elemental shaman.

__________________
~ Aeo - Level 70 Draenei Shaman ~
~ Guild: Reclaimed / Realm: Skywall ~
#766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Why would you want salvation after battle rezzing? Best thing to give you at that point is Might and Wisdom so you can catch up in DPS a bit.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
#768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vice
Has anyone else tried out the Cystalforged Trinket from the Ogri'la Rep?

I think its a good trinket, but after reading all of this for the first time, Im really not sure how it stacks up to the other trinkets listed which I dont really have access to before the other melee classes in my raids

Im definately a sucker for a fast offhand as well...gotta change that asap.

Crystalforged Trinket - 1min CD.
#769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
The rule I generally go by is if I think there is more than 1.5 seconds left I just go ahead and SS, otherwise I wait. I've gotten pretty good at guessing the lag on the windfury timer. As long as the little ball that I go by turns red as I SS, I'm happy

I think there is a line between the loss of SS dps caused by waiting and the increased DPS from more windfury procs due to guaranteeing that the SS has a chance to proc windfury. 1.5 seconds seems like a good compromise.
#770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Galeyra
Concerning hit

Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
#771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Galeyra View Post
Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
Anything that isn't a hit, crit, or glance, is considered a "Miss" for the total miss category. If you expand the melee attacks you can see a breakdown of the actual misses, dodges, and parries.

I've recently dropped about 90 hit rating and haven't looked back. Sadly some bad gearing choices were made before I tried this out.
#772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
For quite a while now we have worked with the concept that 'small haste effects which take weapon speed from just above 1.5 to just below it will decrease dps'. This is due to interaction with the WF cd timer, and was shown via sims, but I have not seen any ingame tests done to see the actual effects.

So, out I went to do a bit of testing on blasted lands mobs. I used 2 'Sergeant's Warhammer of ***' (2.1 speed, and level 12 greens, hence low dps numbers) as the weapons and first used 104 haste rating, the second set was done with 73 haste rating. The 104 haste rating set had a ring and trinket slot empty, the 73 had some green items in them to make sure no AP was lost when the Band of Devastion was removed. I also did not use my helm, as it has a haste proc meta gem. Total change in stats between the 2 sets - first set has 31 more haste rating than second, all other stats equal.

First set, 42 minutes 8 seconds (2528 seconds), damage done: 1000054 of which 59.5% white, 40.5% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.47.
Total dps: 396 of which white dps: 235, wf: 160

Second set, 43 minutes 17 seconds (2597 seconds), damage done: 1000194 of which 59.3% white, 40.7% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.51.
Total dps: 385 of which white dps: 228, wf: 157

Now clearly, as we all know, just dealing 2 million total damage is not enough to really conclude anything with the extreme randomness of shaman dps, however this does seem to show one thing, even when crossing the '1.5 speed barrier' with a small gain in haste rating we still see a gain in dps. WF dps was close enough to call as no change, clearly not the drastic loss the sims had lead us to believe, and if there is a loss it would then need a less than 31 haste rating change, basically a value so small as to be of no consequence (smallest single haste gain I could find was 26 rating).

The white damage however is clearly boosted by the presence of the haste, a 3.07% gain in white dps from 2.95% of haste looks to be a correct value. Total dps went up by 2.86% when going from 1.51 speed (flurried) to 1.47 speed (flurried). It would be nice to see some more data collected, but from this atleast it seems there is no point at which haste is bad at all, and it is infact a very strong stat for us no matter what our current flurried weapon speed is.
#773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Heya Khlysti, thanks for the great testing!

I personally think that lag has something to do with weapon hit times, so it might be a slightly better test to have something like 1.4 flurried speed versus 1.65 flurried speed.

In any case, those results are very interesting - thank you for them.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
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Disquette - shaman
#774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Roonie
Offhand choices.

Hello everyone =)

I was wondering if there was any reason I should get the [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] over the [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] for my new OH.

I only ask because the axe gets mentioned alot, and the mace does not - someone please enlighten me if there is actually a reason that the axe is better?

Also I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at my armoury page and see if I'm doing anything wrong? Personally i'm pretty happy currently - Bare in mind we're about to kill Gruul, So thats about the the level of loot I have access to. Planning on swapping out +Hit trinket with the Bloodlust Broach soon, and also the Hourglass trinket with the Dragonspine Trophy when nubcakes drops it.
Currently also grinding heroic mana tombs for the uber totem.

Thank you all in advance!

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...aenor&n=Roonie Here's me!! please don't be too mean!! ~Hides~
#775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
It's possible to add that to your profile.

- User CP (top of this page)
- Edit WoW Profile
- Character Profile URL
#851SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malus View Post
I am assuming that when you guys keep saying Arena OH, they are referring to One Hand and not the Off Hand. Am I correct in saying this? Because shaman typically want the slowest possible OH weapon.

And also, my guild had asked me about getting dual Battle Master enchants for the raid. But I read that the group heal generates threat.
Is this true, and have any shaman had experience with BM enchants?
I'll be honest, your raid leader should be shot for thinking like that.

Not only does it

A. generate 50hp or some ridiculous low amount
B. It's a proc that doesn't go off all the time and very sporadic
C. Generates increased threat to you
D. Doesn't increase your dps in the slightest in fact it hinders you because you could be using Mongoose or +20STR enchants on 2 weapons.

BM is a cute enchant but you'd want it on a FAST weapon so it would proc ridiculous amounts to make it even quasi useful (which it isn't) but since you are going with 2 SLOW weapons it's a waste.

Smile, nod your head, and put mongoose on your weapons and throw down a healing totem. There you just did one better.
#852SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I used a BM enchant for kicks during KZ to test it out, the proc rate is horribly low. In my previous guild the MT was using it on his tanking weapon and over the course of a boss fight he'd have maybe 2 or 3 procs. It heals around 200 to each player I think. But as noted, definitely not the preferred enchant for someone filling a DPS/Support role.
#853SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Those are both precisely what I thought and countered to his request, thank you guys for verifying this for me before I wasted mats on a "trash" enchant.

I planned to go with crusader until I could get 2xPotency.
#854SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I used a BM enchant for kicks during KZ to test it out, the proc rate is horribly low. In my previous guild the MT was using it on his tanking weapon and over the course of a boss fight he'd have maybe 2 or 3 procs. It heals around 200 to each player I think. But as noted, definitely not the preferred enchant for someone filling a DPS/Support role.
I had that enchant on my Grim tor's axe for a while on my tanking warrior. Really didn't do much for me or the group as a whole. When I slapped on mongoose, worlds collided, the angels sung, and tanking got a heckuva lot easier.
#855SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malus View Post
Those are both precisely what I thought and countered to his request, thank you guys for verifying this for me before I wasted mats on a "trash" enchant.

I planned to go with crusader until I could get 2xPotency.
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
#856SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ambika View Post
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
No, mongoose is pretty much the best enchant. Crusader is nice and cheap, and slightly better than potency.
#857SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Originally Posted by Ambika View Post
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
Well, quite honestly unless my guild can provide most of the mats - I can not afford it on one weapon, no less x2.

And honestly to some extent I have been slightly confused about haste benefits on shaman, I read one place it says haste is great for shaman, but then it also says when we are hasted - that we actually have a dps lose because of the WF cooldown.

And, I also read that while mongoose x2 can stack, but I read the haste will not stack on top of flurry.

So if this is incorrect, please set me straight.
#858SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Haste effects always stack, and unless you have lot and lots of haste modifiers it will always be good.
#859SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int
I used to include sta/int in my lootzor, but there are two problems. First, it's a very subjective valuation, not at all objective like the calculated numbers we're working with from sims and modeling. Second, as has been said, it's often irrelevant. When I started boosting my AP more (as a result of the modeling in this thread) I found I could easily refill from Shamanistic Rage and maybe an Unstable Mana Potion (which I have plenty of from daily questing). Once you have enough mana to drop totems and shock for two minutes until Shamanistic Rage is back up, more mana is worthless. Similarly, if you have enough stamina to survive random AOE ability #34, if your healers are decent, more stamina isn't providing you with additional value -- and, like you said, almost every piece, rogue or hunter, has stam on it anyway.
Originally Posted by Malus View Post
Well, quite honestly unless my guild can provide most of the mats - I can not afford it on one weapon, no less x2.

And honestly to some extent I have been slightly confused about haste benefits on shaman, I read one place it says haste is great for shaman, but then it also says when we are hasted - that we actually have a dps lose because of the WF cooldown.

And, I also read that while mongoose x2 can stack, but I read the haste will not stack on top of flurry.

So if this is incorrect, please set me straight.
If your guild is decent it should provide voids from disenchanted epics -- the rest would be up to you. Farm ore/herbs, start mailing all your greens to an enchanter friend and have him mail back dust/shards. That said, Mongoose does stack on top of Flurry, Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, though for very specific values of passive haste (which nobody has unless they are in BT gear) I would actually expect that Crusader > Potency > Mongoose.

PS. Yes we are referring to one-hand, not off-hand, when we talk about arena OH. However, it so happens that most shamans with access to Karazhan purples or crafted T2/T3 will actually use this weapon in their off-hand initially.
#860SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If your guild is decent it should provide voids from disenchanted epics -- the rest would be up to you. Farm ore/herbs, start mailing all your greens to an enchanter friend and have him mail back dust/shards. That said, Mongoose does stack on top of Flurry, Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, though for very specific values of passive haste (which nobody has unless they are in BT gear) I would actually expect that Crusader > Potency > Mongoose.

PS. Yes we are referring to one-hand, not off-hand, when we talk about arena OH. However, it so happens that most shamans with access to Karazhan purples or crafted T2/T3 will actually use this weapon in their off-hand initially.

I just don't think we have the void's, my shaman's guild has been a revolving door of sorts and not alot of epics have been able to be busted - the rest I can get.


As far as the Arena OH, that is what I expected - because that is what I am saving my current points for atm. Because I am one nether shy of my Drake-> Dragonmaw upgrade for my MH.

Thanks for the response.
#861SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malus View Post
I just don't think we have the void's, my shaman's guild has been a revolving door of sorts and not alot of epics have been able to be busted - the rest I can get.
Go for 2x Crusader in the meantime, then.
#862SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well if you do 8-10 daily quests every day you should be able to afford (depending on AH prices on your server) 2x mongoose in a week or less.
#863SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Sebudai
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Sebudai, I see you are using Rising tide in MH and Syphon on OH. I used to do the same because I tought Rising Tide would eat more wf procs and it lowers my DPS. Yesterday I tried out and swapped them and I saw much bigger white hits/crits. I never saw 3400 wf crits before... I think its better to have this 0.2 slower weapon in MH and have Rising Tide proc a bit more wfs than having the faster but lesser end damage axe in MH. My white hits are 50-55% of my damage, windfury attacks are only about 30-40%. Anyway I'll go to blasted lands and test it on the weekend.
I haven't gotten around to figuring out which way is better yet. The main reason I had Rising Tide in my MH is because of the orc racial. I don't know which way is better. I'll probably try switching it to Syphon MH in the near future.

On a different note, I just realized that I've been doing the math incorrectly for haste rating. The 36 haste rating on Valestalker Girdle comes to 40 'points', not 32.4.

-Edit-
Oh yeah, I forgot one of the reasons I've been puting Syphon offhand is in my current gear setup when I have Flurry and Bloodlust active it puts the Syphon at 1.47 speed. On a lot of fights I get Bloodlust multiple times, so I figured it might be best to put the axe MH. I don't know for sure, though. I'm just guessing.

Last edited by Sebudai : 07/26/07 at 8:23 PM.
#864SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Lootzor seems to be a bit off, its not displaying much of the T4/T5 pieces and even some T6 is missing. "Missing" as in, it goes from epics to blues but not Tiered items.
Used these values - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
#865SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Lootzor seems to be a bit off, its not displaying much of the T4/T5 pieces and even some T6 is missing. "Missing" as in, it goes from epics to blues but not Tiered items.
Used these values - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
No value assigned to strength, of course it won't show tiered items (which have lots of STR)
#866SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Whoah how'd that happen. Thanks.
#867SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Aett View Post
This is the exact reason why I'm not afraid at all to get agility. It's not that far off from crit rating and offers other, tangible benefits. Granted I tend to stay away from the hunter/rogue items where agility is obviously designed to be a source of attack power.
Yes, and also one reason I dont like T6. T5 has agility and also a much better distribution of the valuepts. Damn, I really dont understand why enhancement T6 must suck so much.
#868SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
Yes, and also one reason I dont like T6. T5 has agility and also a much better distribution of the valuepts. Damn, I really dont understand why enhancement T6 must suck so much.
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
#869SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
But it has the potential to be so much better. Sad how the old T4/5 problems are creeping up again. Although, T6 gloves still rock.
#870SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
It's just sad there are non-set items that are superior for every slot. At least T5 had a great helm and gloves, T6 is consolation prizes across the board. Hopefully at some point they'll go through and re-itemize without the mp5, it's frustrating that they haven't learned from the mistakes with T4 and T5 though.

On an unrelated note, Thottbot now has pawn/lootzor style item scoring. The item search also gives you the option of only listing high scoring items, it's nothing new but since lootzor still doesn't include haste rating it's useful. The scores it gives are pawn style rather than the normalized values lootzor gives.
#871SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Magna_FA
On that subject, I threw in all the best of slot mail pieces I could find into excel and calculated the difference between non-set pieces and Skyshatter including the 4 piece bonus. What do you guys think? If you take the formula at face value, it's better to get the non-set pieces and forget about Skyshatter. However, when I plotted it out like this, I noticed that the non-set pieces, being obviously hunter gear (they even look like hunter gear from what I gather) they have very little +hit. Now I know +hit has a relatively low value, and I've proven earlier in this thread that dropping really low isn't bad as long as you replace it with other stats. On the plus side though, going with non-set means more agility vs. crit rating, which means you will gain dodge too. Also, the non-set pieces are easier to get as they are sooner in progression and you would have to compete with less people (hunters only vs. warriors and other shaman specs)

So what do you all think? Is it better to go with the non-set? Or is there some reason to try and get the Skyshatter at least to the 4 piece (probably go with non-set legs still, as they are the most gain)?

BTW, I used epic gems in the gem slots for the calculations, so 10 str for red, 5str/5crit for yellow, and 5str for blue.

				Str	Agi	CR	HR	Atk Pwr	Haste	Points	
Top Non-Set								
Forest Prowler's Helm		10	42	32		100		133.74	
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator		38	26		76		100.86	
Skyshatter Grips			46		26	13			85.7	
Bow-stitched Leggings		20	42	29		100		141.74	
Mail of Fevered Pursuit			49	29		108		130.53	
Set Bonus								0		0	
Total										592.57	

Skyshatter								
Helm				58		45	20			122.8	10.94
Shoulders				45		34	11			91.2	9.66
Gloves				46		26	13			85.7	0
Leggings				53		39	21			112	29.74
Chest				65		32	15			114	16.53
Set Bonus								70		35	
Total										560.7	31.87
Edit: Sorry, forgot the conversion I used. Str=1.1, Agi=.97, CR=1, HR=.7, Atk Pwr=.5
#872SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Eland
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Back to the equivalencies, I'm using this formula:
1CR = 1STR = 2.2AP = 1.43HR = 0.9 Haste = 1.02 AGI
So I think taking the ratios (ie dividing them all into 1) of these numbers would give the the associated weights for plugging them into lootzor?

So then weights are:
CR = 1
STR = 1
AP ~ 0.456
HR ~ 0.699
Haste ~ 1.11
Agi ~ 0.98

Giving this lootzor. Well unfortunately without the haste rating as of yet. Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, I'm just putting it down as I found the equivalencies confusing for a bit as my gear choice process basically revolves around finding weights to put in lootzor.

I'm starting to think personally that assigning some weight to stam is worthwhile. While I think that stuff like fel leather is a good gearing up option there aren't many boss fights (nor trash clears) I can think of where I would be happy to be kited out in items that haven't spent some of their item budget on stamina. I quite often find myself swapping for example gauntlets of the dragonslayer for fel leather gloves to boost my survivability in trash clears and aoeing boss. While armor can in almost all circumstances be considered useless I'm not so sure about giving stamina a weight of 0 or not including the dodge component of agility in it's item weighting.
#873SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Post 872 -
My opinion is to always take an upgrade when its available. If that means that a Tiered Set item is better than what you have, even though there is 'better' available, I'd still take the upgrade. I never wait for a drop and take things when I can. Look at the lootzor item listing for our currently accepted stat weights. T5 and T4 are at the very bottom, right next to each other. I think that Blizzard may have just declared set items to be the easiest item to get and therefore should be the least beneficial. That's contrary to how most players feel though - set items are "cool" and have bonuses and a unified look to them.

Post 873 -
I think all you've done is normalized the values to 1, its still the same ratio as if you hadn't done that. I just edited the front page with some material that Rob gave me and things should make more sense now. It also has a correct lootzor link on it finally.

Last edited by Malan : 07/27/07 at 9:53 AM.
#874SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Eland View Post
I'm starting to think personally that assigning some weight to stam is worthwhile.
It's worthwhile until you're through Karazhan I believe. As you need to prioritize stam gear until you can sit over 8500 or so buffed. After that you don't need to look at it any more. All the gear you'll get from 25 mans will have enough stam on it to keep you in safe territory.

I wore blue 'of the bear' legs that had ~60 stam and about 40 strength on it, with the 40 stam armor patch for a long time. That filled out most of my HP needs by itself.
#875SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Oh hey Malan. I'm not sure if it's been taken into account in the ratios, but seeing as Strength is weighted slightly higher then AP due to Kings, is Agility getting that same consideration? Trying to dig up the Agility to crit ratio now.
#1001SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I just can't see the Syphon proc as being any good, judging from a WWS of our last BT, out of 5,740,397 damage it contributed just 23,606, 0.4%. As far as I know because of WF we get fairly equal MH/OH proc rates so even with 2 of them it would still likely be <1% of your total damage. I'd wager the extra hit rating on rising tide or the haste proc on Dragonstrike both easily outweigh it.
I think the .2 additional speed makes it worthwhile. Harder WFs and SS's add up.
#1002SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I have 1 Syphon and I never saw the proc happening while the leech was active, but I had it proccing right after the leech ended. I think it has a 6sec internal cooldown / hand.
#1003SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3The Omen
Hedin I love you thanks for the mod keep us updated

Cheers


~Omenx
#1004SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Now my WF3sec addon can be downloaded from Ace2 site
It has some new stuff:
- SS cooldown timer next to WF timer
- Some DPS Buff timers
- Realtime Melee Stats showing
- OMG, you can now move bars by /wf3sec command
- I added a fix for a high ping WF cooldown overlapping


PHP >> all
Is there a way to either a) remove the melee stats/buff window, or b) just remove the buff portion of the window? I don't mind seeing the melee stats, but as it is right now I'm not interested in the buff timer.
#1005SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Not sure if its possible on this forum, but it may be worth asking for one of the mods to merge in a new blank post under the 1st one, i've done it on one of old guild forums so I would assume its still possible.
Its kind of "hush hush" so I can't talk much about it yet, but in the next week or so you'll see the results of a new project here on EJ that won't make this thread necessary anymore

@Hedin - yah all those other bars really need a way to get turned on/off though since 99% of the population already have their full buff list displayed somewhere else on their UI. I really don't need to see the exact same info right smack in the middle of my screen. Otherwise your addon adds some decently useful info. The things like the stormstrike debuff (and presumably flameshock?) are also available through the Quartz cast bar options. Basically you should make every single facet of that mod able to be turned off individually.
#1006SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I think the .2 additional speed makes it worthwhile. Harder WFs and SS's add up.
Even over Dragonstrike? Since it's only a .1 additional speed, 50AP and 3.6dps over Dragonstrike, and you'd lose the 212 haste rating proc.

Originally Posted by Morelis
I've measured the uptime for the Dragonstrike proc at about 40%, which would give it value equal to 85 passive haste rating. A weapon would need 170 ap worth of stats to match it. The +3 dps would cancel some of that out, but not enough.
In my eyes that looks like one nice mace if this is true..
#1007SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dakashi
I've been using the mod WFCooldown to track my windfury cooldowns. It displays the 3 second cooldown and nothing else - pretty simple.

I think Hedin's mod has more going for it with the DPS stats window. I'd like to have that up to see the variation in my weapon speeds, as well as how high my AP spikes. Now if I could only turn off everything else... =)
#1008SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaanix
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It took me 6 weeks to get the Astral Winds, running it every single day. Hang in there.
11% drop rate my ass.
Ouch.. i got mine on my second attempt..
#1009SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its kind of "hush hush" so I can't talk much about it yet, but in the next week or so you'll see the results of a new project here on EJ that won't make this thread necessary anymore
You mean the wikipedia style thing you already mentioned in a thread?
#1010SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I said its hush hush, jeez!
#1011SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Even over Dragonstrike? Since it's only a .1 additional speed, 50AP and 3.6dps over Dragonstrike, and you'd lose the 212 haste rating proc.
Sorry for being slightly vague, I was referring to Syphon over Tide.
#1012SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Magna_FA
I got my second syphon this week as well and I saw a significant dps boost. There is something to be said about having 2 of the same speed weapons, and them being 2.8 speed is a bonus. And no, they just refresh the buff.
#1013SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Socratez
been reading this thread for a while now and i check it for updates almost everday, tnx all for ur input. learned some very usefull stuff. still have a few questions i've had to ask "to make sure" and would appriciate some replies.

- my raidleader(s) always put me in our tankgrp so i can use goa for our tanks (i am the only enh-shammy in our guild atm) i will talk to em about this soon, coz imo it would be better to put me in a (melee)dpsgrp. allthough i must say it mostly consists of: ret-pally,1/2rogue(s), 1/2 bmhunter(s), sometimes druid/fury-warr. so maybe i should talk to em about that as well, so we can get a more effictive dpsgrp (always: me, furywarr, druid, 1/2 rogues, ret-pally?). i've read some things about this and i think that i have quite a good view about it, but its not rly clear, so i would love to hear some thoughts about this plz.

-Should hunters/rogues/enh-shammys get pref over some drops or let all just roll on items they think r a upgrade? we dont use dkp since tbc..

- hit%? i've read all about it here and dropped some +hit for ap (had "enough" crit anyway)
I tested it (not like some ppl here did, i just did some raids with a bit diff-gear) from 215 thil 150, and around 175 rly seemed the best dps for me (have +9% from talents ofc).
am i just wrong about this or is there some explanation?


btw i have kara/gruul-gear atm, may be usefull to know (or not), also: armory may show pvp/arenagear, coz sometimes i switch between arena/pve-spec...

also: this is my 1st post on a wow-forum oO

Last edited by Socratez : 08/03/07 at 2:40 AM.
#1014SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The only reason I could see to have a enhancement shaman in the with MT, is because he has poor threat gen and needs the extra AP, that said its still not very useful, and WF totem for the tank would still be better imo.

As for your group, any dps warrior should always be with you, likewise all the rogues and if their is still space a feral.

Ret palas, I dont know, we have never used one other than pissing about in SSC, and he isnt geared to the best standard, they don't bring anything to a group setup, similar to rogues but with a hell of a lot less damage. BM hunters are good, but again rogues/warriors will gain far more from you.

As for loot, do you /random on all loot? If so that must be a horrible system, we dont use dkp, but our loot is assigned by a loot council according to upgrade size, attendance and ability.
#1015SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Ok ok, I'll make an option to disable Buffbars and Melee frame, and maybe add some switches for adding/deleting buffs for my Buffbars :-)
#1016SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I looked at WFCooldown and didn't find high ping correction of WF cooldown...
#1017SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
WF3sec update:
After next sinc from dev to files.wowace.com there will be 2 toggles for MeleeFrame and Buffbars :-)
Requests for new features and bugfixes are welcome...
#1018SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Bai
My Tide...

Naj finally dropped the Rising Tide for me tonight.
As updated to my Armory; I'm using Dragonstrike and Rising Tide.
When I get some new WWS posted with it, I'll throw it up for y'all to see. Overall, it's only going to be about a 4-6dps increase and a nice "ssschllluch" slicing sound. I can't argue with it though. It just looks so damn pretty.

@ Earlier Question: I have 2/5 Convection because I've been in debt and unable to spec into Imp Ankh. But I am going to very soon. When I was less geared I was running some numbers on shock dps and efficiency.
Thusly, trying to get them as cheap as I could but keeping my Resto points.
Honestly, I'd rather put 2 more into Dodge. - I end up (on purpose) dodge tanking Necromancers in Hyjal, or random mobs in BT tend to love aggroing me.

@Hedin : Gonna give your addon a whirl. =)

Last edited by Bai : 08/03/07 at 6:56 AM.
#1019SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Belt of Hundreds Death, which drops from Lady Vashj, have 25 weapon rating for mace.
I find this useful esp for troll/tauren shaman who has innately no additional weapon skill point. And from what i know, the first 5 point of weapon skills benefits the most, which seems like giving at least 3% additional dps from reducing miss, dodged, and increased crit.

Does anyone bother to pick up this item and test it out? For e.g. compare to Belt of the black eagle or any belt that's SSC/TK equivalence.
#1020SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Anyone know if this mob Haalum - NPCs - World of Warcraft in ShadowMoon valley is immune to hits if you don't kill the totems, or will it still register the damage done?

Edit - nvm found a screenshot that shows he's immune.
#1021SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
WF3sec update:
After next sinc from dev to files.wowace.com there will be 2 toggles for MeleeFrame and Buffbars :-)
Requests for new features and bugfixes are welcome...
Thanks Hedin, you're a peach. Keep up the good work.
#1022SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Teirz View Post
Belt of Hundreds Death, which drops from Lady Vashj, have 25 weapon rating for mace.
I find this useful esp for troll/tauren shaman who has innately no additional weapon skill point. And from what i know, the first 5 point of weapon skills benefits the most, which seems like giving at least 3% additional dps from reducing miss, dodged, and increased crit.

Does anyone bother to pick up this item and test it out? For e.g. compare to Belt of the black eagle or any belt that's SSC/TK equivalence.
Didnt they change the weapon skill mechanism in TBC to only work as a percentage based increase to hit and crit?

Oh, and to Hedin, when I downloaded your addon I just commented out the buffs I didn't want to show.
#1023SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
There's a thread on the weapon skill stuff, I believe the conclusion they reached was that the blue post that supposedly clarified the new weapon skill was not very accurate.
[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
#1024SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Ret palas, I dont know, we have never used one other than pissing about in SSC, and he isnt geared to the best standard, they don't bring anything to a group setup, similar to rogues but with a hell of a lot less damage. BM hunters are good, but again rogues/warriors will gain far more from you.
The improved Sanc aura gives the party 2% more damage done! The Imp JoC gives the whole raid +3% crit.

If it's a good player, I'd say it's OK to use one(This can be said about most "offspecs").
#1025SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Oh, and to Hedin, when I downloaded your addon I just commented out the buffs I didn't want to show.
Thats the easy way :-)
Maybe I'll add to commands...
#1176SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Ok, so i finally ventured past Kara last night, and went on a guild clear of SSC and TK.

To get it out of the way, oh my god melee range is punishing when you don't know what all the mobs do, or forget exactly what "you're standing in pyro" means for kael :-(

But, back on topic. In kara I'd tried twisting totems using just the standard timers you get with yata / totemus / whatever. It was rather difficult, and I know I botched it sometimes. Using the mod tonight, however, knowing when to refresh was never a problem. I feel pretty good about that aspect of it, and think that if I get to go back again, and know where tthe tank spot are, they can be twisted just fine (on non aoe-silence) fights.
Yes, Yata has no support for totem twisting, probably I will never include it. I will probably only add some basic support for ticks, but not yet sure.
#1177SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Well, I greatly prefer good mods to do specific things instead of one that tries to do everything. I didn't know you did yata. That's pretty cool :-) I switched to that from totemus due to big freezes (maybe .5 to 1 sec) anytime I used a totem that wasn't the default.
#1178SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
By the way, since the lead itemization designer is now playing a shaman, someone needs to figure out how to point him to this thread so he can see how jacked up it is.
#1179SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I assume he is in the US which means if/when he posts it will be on the US forum, so one of you guys will have to point him.
#1180SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Itzelsnitch
Could it be possible that WF cooldown would be reset when switching weapons, so that switching weapons in between attacks would provide a DPS increase? :P
#1181SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Itzelsnitch View Post
Could it be possible that WF cooldown would be reset when switching weapons, so that switching weapons in between attacks would provide a DPS increase? :P
Even if that were the case you'd incur a GCD every time you swapped, and I'm sure that would be just one more thing they'd fix like the WF 5/4 workaround.
#1182SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
I doubt weapon swapping will "reset" WF proc timer due to the fact that windfury cooldown are tied to your offhand even when your main hand procs it.

Assuming that it does reset the cooldown, doesn't swapping weapon incure not only a global cooldown, but also reset your swing timer? By the time you get the next swing off, isn't the 3 second cooldown already over, AND you lose out on your next (or next couple) of white swings?
#1183SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
That's true, it would reset your swing timer as well.
#1184SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Ok, so i finally ventured past Kara last night, and went on a guild clear of SSC and TK.

To get it out of the way, oh my god melee range is punishing when you don't know what all the mobs do, or forget exactly what "you're standing in pyro" means for kael :-(

But, back on topic. In kara I'd tried twisting totems using just the standard timers you get with yata / totemus / whatever. It was rather difficult, and I know I botched it sometimes. Using the mod tonight, however, knowing when to refresh was never a problem. I feel pretty good about that aspect of it, and think that if I get to go back again, and know where tthe tank spot are, they can be twisted just fine (on non aoe-silence) fights.
One thing I've noticed as far as totem twisting goes is that using the macro in the OP really, really helps in Hyjal for trash. The Crypt Fiends have this annoying habit of eating totems as soon as they go down and it really helps to not have to think about whether windfury is up or not. Plus the totems sort of move with you too
#1185SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Post 69, and i quote you Malan, since you have some ideas.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?
Just for the record, reduced time on grounding totem is an essential PvP talent for me. Combined with 5s shocks and proper positioning, I can avoid over half of a casters damage. I'm honestly saddened by the number of shaman in the post that claim to be PvP oriented but then say they don't need this talent. Guardian totems should probably look more like : Extends range of totems to 25/30 yds, decreases cooldown of grounding totem by 1/2s.

I must be the only person in the world that likes Elemental Devastation. Combined with the Darkmoon: Wrath card it's a pretty neat talent. However, it would probably be more useful if it increased the raids damage instead of just the shamans. That would make it useful for elemental shaman also.

Edit: If we only get the tier 1 talents changed and nothing else, I'll still consider this a victory.
#1186SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Drats - that's fine, but since Kaplan stated that Enhancement is not a PvP spec (of course he also said we're not a raid spec ) and since most shaman that are PvPing are elemental or resto, the grounding totem talent probably doesn't need to be a Tier 2 Enhance talent. Not to mention that nobody in their right mind gives a shit about Stoneskin totem or Windwall.
#1187SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
When I pvp'd with my raid resto spec, I took 5/5 ancestral and 2points imp grounding. Taking 3/3 elemental warding would save just about as much damage and be more important in pve too.
#1188SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by drats View Post
Just for the record, reduced time on grounding totem is an essential PvP talent for me. Combined with 5s shocks and proper positioning, I can avoid over half of a casters damage. I'm honestly saddened by the number of shaman in the post that claim to be PvP oriented but then say they don't need this talent. Guardian totems should probably look more like : Extends range of totems to 25/30 yds, decreases cooldown of grounding totem by 1/2s.

I must be the only person in the world that likes Elemental Devastation. Combined with the Darkmoon: Wrath card it's a pretty neat talent. However, it would probably be more useful if it increased the raids damage instead of just the shamans. That would make it useful for elemental shaman also.

Edit: If we only get the tier 1 talents changed and nothing else, I'll still consider this a victory.
My post is based PURELY from a PVE perspective.
#1189SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
My post is based PURELY from a PVE perspective.
If it seemed that I was specifically talking about you, then I apologize. The devs are obviously still a little confused about exactly what they want each spec of shaman to do. All of our information is valuable, but it's apparent that some of the talents that I like aren't as appealing to others. I hope they improve on the lesser used talents rather than remove them completely (With the exception of shield spec. I'm going to send them a case of beer when they remove that pos talent.)
#1190SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
#1191SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
That was back before DW, I'll wager, and it made sense to increase block over a pittance of mana. I did the same thing, since I found quality 1 handers easier to come by than 2 handers on my way to 60.
#1192SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
I used it when I was resto at 60, as Ancestral Knowledge was almost completely worthless then (it finally became viable when we hit 10k unbuffed mana), It definitely helped a little bit on some of the big pulls in AQ40 (Twin Emps trash with the spawns zerging the raid and usually going for healers in between fears).
#1193SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Handratty
I read the first pages or so and could not find an answer to my question. So, I apologize if this has been covered and would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction.

How does Stormstrike (SS) affect your sustained dps?
Moreover, when is the best time to use stormstrike?

To this point, I have just been mindlessly spamming SS whenever the cooldown is up. However, it occured to me that this strategy might not be the best idea with all the different factors that affect Windfury.
#1194SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I believe that some sim runs that Tornhoof (maybe?) might have posted in the last 10 pages or so concluded that waiting for the cooldown before using SS would in theory increase dps by 1-2% or something like that.
#1195SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
General consensus (and my personal practice) seems to be that if there's less than about 1.5-2 seconds left on CD, you should wait, but if there's more, you should fire it off. I'd probably also lean towards SSing earlier if we had an elemental shaman or boomkin in our raids (we don't).
#1196SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
And I think, roughly speaking, SS generally accounts for 10% of overall damage output.
#1197SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
I agree with Rob.

I do run with a Boomkin (sometimes two, we like our druids) and so I try to get my FS->ES rotation timed so that I don't use Stormstrike charges. I find the WF cooldown bar is a really good 'hint' for when to SS before shocking, or when to shock before SS. It's not like an auto-shot bar, though, where you need to look at it. For a while I was delaying SS too frequently with it, and my DPS suffered.
#1198SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
My WFtotem is almost ready :-)
#1199SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'd probably also lean towards SSing earlier if we had an elemental shaman or boomkin in our raids (we don't).
Yah that's the real kicker. If you're in a raid with someone that can make use of the debuff than you need to have it up there every 10 seconds on the dot. If not, waiting to boost your DPS a bit is a good idea.
#1200SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I slap SS when WFCD or flurry is off...
#1326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malovent
So I did some heroics. I had 2 x [Fel Edged Battleaxe]'s and I now got a [Boggspine Knuckles]. I now got [Boggspine Knuckles] in my OH and my [Fel Edged Battleaxe] in my MH.

From what I read in this thread, I should be better off with my new combo?
#1327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Simply put, windfury gives rouglhy 60% more damage to your weapon if you just take the procs into account (in fact it gives much more because it increases the time you stay in flurry, as well as everything that can proc : mangoose or crusader enchants, various trinkets, chamanistic rage, etc....) so just do the math and you'll see that even with very crappy gear windfury is always far better than flametongue.

This is for the mainhand, things are a bit different for the offhand because it gets only 50% of the physical damages, but flametongue -as well as frostband- being magical damage are not affected. Anyway windfury is still the best because it scales with your melee stats, while flametongue scales with spell damage, and you usualy don't have spell damage in your enhancement gear.

Even with the upcoming talents which will provide us with a fair amount of spell damage windfury will still be better if you're wearing epic gear (but it may become a good choice for leveling i guess)
So, until I can replace the Malchazeen with the Fool's Bane or something similar, would you say it would be better to put, say... Rockbiter on the offhand?
#1328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
No. Put Windfury on both of them, and then read the first post in this thread a bit more thoroughly where all of this is explained.
#1329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LazyJoe
Rockbiter is physicakl damage, so it is also affected by the 50% malus. It also generates a lot of aggro so it is always a bad choice. Dual windfury is always the best choice whatever you are using as weapons.
#1330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Rockbiter is physicakl damage, so it is also affected by the 50% malus. It also generates a lot of aggro so it is always a bad choice. Dual windfury is always the best choice whatever you are using as weapons.
Rockbiter hasn't been generating extra threat since the pre expansion TBC talent patch...

But other then that, forget there are such things as other weapon enchants, use windfury, end of story.
#1331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ralgarog
I have a question. What would be the best combination?
Crystalweave Cape - Items - World of Warcraft + Thundering skyfire Diamond + Dragonspine trophy + Abacus of the violent odds

or

Blood Knight War Cloak - Items - World of Warcraft + Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft + Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft + Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft ?
#1332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aurvandil
Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post

well, you don't have to stack haste you know? If you had access to all of those items

Blood Knight + Relentless + Bloodlust Brooch + dragonspine, infact besides the cloak thats what I'm using.
#1333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hey, amazingly Lootzor and/or Pawn, or hand calculating the worth of those items based on the itemization weights in the first post would tell you everything you wanted to know about those combinations!
#1334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Hey, amazingly Lootzor and/or Pawn, or hand calculating the worth of those items based on the itemization weights in the first post would tell you everything you wanted to know about those combinations!
Perhaps if you enlarge the font size of the already-perfectly visible and readable red text to say 6 or 7, people might spot it easier and actually bother to read the OP before asking questions.

I feel your pain, Malan.
#1335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Noted and implemented.
#1336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Just wondering about the -enemyarmor stat AEP calculations. Sorry about any spelling errors or obvious mistakes, my point with the reply is the theory if it would work or not, I'm going home tomorrow after two weeks of 12 hour days + overtime, so bear with me please.

x armor gives y% mitigation, right?

So, could you run a simulation of a mob with 75% mitigation, 50%, 25% and last 0% (perhaps more steps then that too),
then implement the DPS increase graph into this: Image:Armor.JPG - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

Shouldnt in theory the DPS graph be inverse proporsional with the armor graph, and isnt there then some way to figure out the DPS increase in relation to armor from that, thus figuring out how much -1 armor increases our DPS (or how much 1 armor decreases our DPS I dont really know how to mathecraftican it), and then add that value to the x that's on the items, especially when we know that the armor cap (I assume for players) is that value (provided it's correct).

I'm fearing it wont work if perhaps mobs have different armor values and cap% then players, but would it be possible to figure out the value of armor penetration versus players like this? I dont know, just a tired after-16-hours-at-work-thought as I haven't seen many suggestions to how to model this stat.

Thanks for the read.
#1337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
#1338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
I did a bunch of my own speculation on the value of -armor and came to a few conclusions.

1. I couldn't find any established item costs for -armor, but from comparing items with and without the stat then measuring the ilevel difference between them using the item calculator from wowwiki( Talk:Formulas:Item Values - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki ) I came to the conclusion that 1 point of item budget will buy approximately 7 -armor. That value works well for every ilvl141 item with -armor, the ring from Illidan seems to be overbudget using that value but maybe they just wanted his loot to be extra good.

2. I've been using the TargetArmor mod( TargetArmor | Downloads ) for the last few weeks to get an estimate of how much mitigation bosses have. Most are in the 3k-5k armor range (after sunder + ff but no CoR) according to the mod. I have no way of knowing what differences there might be between player mitigation formulas and the ones used for bosses, so I assume they're the same.

3. Using Pater's sim and a scale that matches my buffed stats (2600ap, 35crit, 6.6hit, 32.32haste), with the armor formulas on wowwikiw ( Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki ) I estimated the change in DPS from adding and subtracting 50 item points spent on -armor(same value I use for the other stats) it came out to a value of 2.03 on a target with 4k armor. Which compares favorably with the rest of my scale: Str-2.2 Haste-1.97 CR-1.93 HR-1.83 Agi-1.87 AP-1(to enter the stat in thottbot's thingy divide the scale value by 7, so 2.03 become 0.29).

For other armor values the results do change (5k gives 1.9 and 3k gives 2.18) but not by as dramatic a margin as I thought they would. Keep in mind though that this involves a ton of speculation and with my mediocre math skills this could be completely wrong, but as far as I can tell it makes sense at the very least.
#1339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hm. So more testing required but we could possibly value it between 1.5-2.0 depending on accuracy.
#1340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Noted and implemented.
That first post is beautiful, Malan. I haven't looked at the first page of this thread since it was a mere child at 12 pages long or so. I'm very impressed with what you've done with it.

Just a public "thank you"
#1341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackpatch
Echoed. I don't even have anything to do with Enhancement Shamans, I'm just a curious observer, and you've done an amazing job of collecting, organizing, and presenting information.

GG, sir.
#1342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
Due to varying mob armor, it will ofcourse be very difficult to determine a set AEP for the stat, how about a graph saying with x armor, -armor is worth y AEP? Then we could determine at what armor value of the boss it would be preferable to use the -armor items instead of the 'oldskool' items.

Personally I used MobMitigation to check up on mob\boss armor, but I'll try the other addon suggested and see the results, roughly I think I came up with the same as Morelis with 2.5-5k armor.

In conclusion it's definetly worth having the stat for fights where the mob\boss has alot of armor, while in the typical cloth-mob fights you should go for the 'old' stats?
#1343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Back on the topic of twisting...

(I am aware this uses the old non-nerfed version of WF Totem)

I just used the rogue dps spreadsheet (incredibly nice, btw) from the thread in the class mechanics forum, and inputted almost exact values of one of the sword rogues in my guild. Here's his armory:

The Armory

According to the spreadsheet, the following values are true:

Just poisons: 1466
Just GoA + poisons: 1561
Just WF/Poison: 1594
Twisting WF/GoA: 1633
(Assume WF 100%, GoA 70% (to account for lag, imperfect redrops))

In other words, with pretty darn good, but still imperfect, twisting, your combat sword rogues should gain about 40 dps from twisting in the old system. Once the spreadsheet is updated, I'll try this again. Worst case I'd assume 1/2 of the WF dps goes away.

One thing confuses me though - I'd heard that with the WF "fix", WF would still be a better totem than GoA. I might have used the sheet wrong, because that is not at all consistent with the results I gave above (in which I assume not having specials proc WF would be more than a 30% drop in WF damage, which is what it would take to equal the GoA + poisons buff).

Just something to chew on, or for someone more rogue-knowledgeable to investigate.

I guess the big question is, assuming you're in a 5 melee group, and conservatively guess that each person gets about 30dps from twisting, is it worth it in the loss of either global cooldowns for the shaman, and/or in the loss of shock dps? How much utility is 150 raid dps worth...?
#1344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Back on the topic of twisting...

(I am aware this uses the old non-nerfed version of WF Totem)

I just used the rogue dps spreadsheet (incredibly nice, btw) from the thread in the class mechanics forum, and inputted almost exact values of one of the sword rogues in my guild. Here's his armory:

The Armory

According to the spreadsheet, the following values are true:

Just poisons: 1466
Just GoA + poisons: 1561
Just WF/Poison: 1594
Twisting WF/GoA: 1633
(Assume WF 100%, GoA 70% (to account for lag, imperfect redrops))

In other words, with pretty darn good, but still imperfect, twisting, your combat sword rogues should gain about 40 dps from twisting in the old system. Once the spreadsheet is updated, I'll try this again. Worst case I'd assume 1/2 of the WF dps goes away.

One thing confuses me though - I'd heard that with the WF "fix", WF would still be a better totem than GoA. I might have used the sheet wrong, because that is not at all consistent with the results I gave above (in which I assume not having specials proc WF would be more than a 30% drop in WF damage, which is what it would take to equal the GoA + poisons buff).

Just something to chew on, or for someone more rogue-knowledgeable to investigate.

I guess the big question is, assuming you're in a 5 melee group, and conservatively guess that each person gets about 30dps from twisting, is it worth it in the loss of either global cooldowns for the shaman, and/or in the loss of shock dps? How much utility is 150 raid dps worth...?
I'd say it all depends on the fight and your 'duties' in that fight (decursing, purging etc), but I'm going to test this once I get back home, surely with shocks etc we wont output 150 more DPS either way, so for raid buffing this would be the best choice?
#1345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
panny
The flat dps gains across the party seems to be worth it considering spammed shocks are about 130 dps (off the top of my head, I calculated it earlier somewhere). I tried it myself recently, and though it was a bit of a pain, I usually managed a rotation of Stormstrike -> WF totem (rank 1) -> GoA -> Shock, though I didn't have perfect buff uptime, it seemed to work out alright. I essentially lost 50% to 30% of my Shocks across a fight.

The main, personal benefit was that I had less threat due to shocks not getting the benefit of Spirit Weapons. This was pretty good, especially on trash. I'm usually in a hybrid tank/melee group, so that meant the tank got a bit of extra dodge, crit and armour too. On Hydross I twisted with Nature Resist Totem, which worked out well because I can't use every shock cooldown anyway.

I didn't use it on fights where I had to interrupt after I missed ESing some heals due to GCDs, but other than that it was okay.

Once the talent changes go in, it might not be worth doing anymore. Rough figures are 700 spellpower (~2300 AP), which means the new DPS for Earth Shock and Flame Shock being hit every cooldown, including standard debuffs are:

ES: (((.42 * 700)+675)/12)*1.25 = 100 dps
FS: (((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.3 = 137 dps

And with the new talents, I'll try switching into an Elemental minor with 10% boosted damage and 5 second cooldown on shocks.

ES: ((.42 * 700)+675)/10)*1.25*1.1 = 133 dps
FS: (((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.3*1.1 = 150 dps (I've kept FS cooldown to 12 seconds for dot ticking)

For a total of 288 dps. Granted, there will be a few dropped shocks due to conflicts with the SS timer, but it seems to be a reasonable estimate. You can probably still fit twisting in between shock cooldowns. Along with the lowered mana costs of shocks, watching WFtotem pulses and WF cooldown timers, we might actually have something close to interactivity DPS-wise.

Edit: Amusingly enough, with the +8% Lightning Shield PvP gloves, the +15% Lightning Shield talent, 700 spellpower, and the Stormstrike debuff, each Lightning Shield charge will go off for ~733 damage.

Last edited by panny : 08/13/07 at 3:20 AM.
#1346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Brum
Syphon/Tide MH/OH comparison

Nemaa mentioned some testing back in post 910. He had better results main handing Tide over two 30-minute segments of combat. Just did two one-hour segments myself

Gear was:
1532 AP
11.89% Haste (125)
6.53% Hit (103)
28.32 % Crit

Other buff stuff: RED meta gem, Tsunami Talisman, Ashtongue trinket, and 2x mongoose on weaps

About the runs: I hit the Servant of Raz till Recount's displayed dps stopped moving more than +/- 1 over the course of about 20 secs. Hit stormstrike as soon as it was off cooldown. Each test had three heal breaks lasting about 10 secs. MH Tide test was about two minutes longer. The SoE totem from the main hand Tide run was the result of a misclick, it was down for two seconds so it's neglibile.

Tide MH:

Syphon MH:

Discussion: MHing Syphon came out on top by a scant 11 dps. Of note - my trinkets activated more frequently in the Tide MH run (as evinced by the higher average white hits and crits from that run and the number of buffs applies in the buff gains table). Even with fewer ap procs to go on, however, the average wf hits and crits were higher while main handing Syphon. This is significant because it implies that the higher dmg range on Syphon more than makes up for the increased % of off hand windfuries. However, I am not sure what % of the windfuries in each run were performed by which hand, so this isn't a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Sadly, even though it seemed like I'd reached stable dps levels in both runs, the crit rates for wf and ss between the runs don't match, meaning they weren't long enough to reach the the mean crit rate on those abilities.

Conclusion: Not really satisfied drawing a conclusion and will perform longer runs later on. For now I'll be main handing Syphon. I'm curious to see if others have performed their own tests and what their results are.

P.S. If anyone could point me to an app/mod that parses combat logs and shows the % and # of MH vs OH wf procs that'd be swell for drilling deeper. Thanks
#1347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Interesting results Brum. I've been wondering about this ever since I ran the sim test and it showed MH being slow was more important than OH being slow (to a degree). Since we've sort of migrated over the past couple months to thinking that the most important thing is for the OH to be slower than the MH, I figured my sim had just missed something.

From your tests, it's looking more likely that the "MH needs to be slow" directive still may be the case. Thanks much for the data.

As for the parsing app/mod, during my tests I always just did it 'by hand' in excel, based on the damage of each attack. It's a real pain, to tell the truth, but if you really want the data, you can get it that way.
#1348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wichtel
I got an idear while reading the discussion about the new WF vs GoA. You had a debate up there about FT vs WF on our Offhand and FT might be as good up to a point. But what about the FT-Totem will it scale with Spelldamge too? If thats the case it could be better to put down FT and GoA instead of WF.
#1349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jerem
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Since we've sort of migrated over the past couple months to thinking that the most important thing is for the OH to be slower than the MH.
My guild currently faces a shortage of shamans.
I have to admit that reading threads like this one made me eager to discover the class, and I started levelling a shaman.

I think I pretty much understood the logic and mechanics of the class described here, but I am still puzzled about itemization, especially about MH/OH speeds.
The quote above, as well as the original post, both go in the "an OH faster than your MH will hurt your DPS", and suggest "for the OH to be slower than the MH" so that most WF procs occur on the MH.
If I am correct, the Runic Hammer and Arena mace (best pre-BT recommended OH) both are faster than the Blacksmithing mace.

Does it mean that, considering that the Blacksmithing mace is the best (easiest to obtain) MH pre-BT, the current itemization just does not allow any OH slower than your MH until the Black Temple ?
This leads me to wonder if the speed actually matters, or if it is just the difference between them that is the most important ?
I have been trying to use the different tools and simulators described here to verify how a 2.7/2.4 combination would compare to a, for instance, 2.0/2.1 combination. But I sure could use some input from experienced theorycrafting shamans, who are most likely to have tested this already.
#1350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
Does it mean that, considering that the Blacksmithing mace is the best (easiest to obtain) MH pre-BT, the current itemization just does not allow any OH slower than your MH until the Black Temple ?
I would go as far to say that dragonstrike is _THE_ best weapon available for a shaman. With syphon in OH.

On the note of the syphon I was expecting the proc to be alot better, I'm really disapointed that instead of some uesful stats We get the proc.

The weapon proc accounted for 17784 out of 4 million damage and 12371 out of 3.5million damage in the last 2 raids. Less than 0.5% of my damage.

I was trying to think of a way to improve it, I thought maybe having it proc on every melee hit, but maybe that would be overpowered?
#1351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
That first post is beautiful, Malan. I haven't looked at the first page of this thread since it was a mere child at 12 pages long or so. I'm very impressed with what you've done with it.

Just a public "thank you"
Bah, I just steal all the info you guys write and reword it

I'd like to get some more graphics up like the one I made to illustrate the windfury cooldown lockout for a fast OH with slow MH. Any thoughts on what concepts would be good to illustrate?
#1352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec


MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb


MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf


WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
#1353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kagu
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
#1354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Kagu View Post
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
I am going for chest, but t5 shoulders sux - try to get t5 hands.
#1355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I did a bunch of my own speculation on the value of -armor and came to a few conclusions.

I came to the conclusion that 1 point of item budget will buy approximately 7 -armor.
Just FYI this is the same conclusion I came to. The trash neck from BT with -175 armor seems to be valued the same as if ithad been +25 rating points.

As far as the value of this stat, it varies from boss to boss which is an annoying answer but it is true. From a distance though it is easy to see how this is a good stat for us as it directly helps roughly 90% of our damage, which cannot be said for anything else except for AP/Str.
#1356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Wichtel View Post
I got an idear while reading the discussion about the new WF vs GoA. You had a debate up there about FT vs WF on our Offhand and FT might be as good up to a point. But what about the FT-Totem will it scale with Spelldamge too? If thats the case it could be better to put down FT and GoA instead of WF.
No.

The only time you should even consider putting FT-totem down is if you have to drop Tranquil Air. Given proper raid buffs (specifically blessing of salv) that should never happen. WF totem is a 20% chance for an extra attack with more AP, flametounge will probably never be able to compete with that for damage due to WF's scaling nature.
#1357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wichtel
I do know that it sucks right now. But i was talking about FT with the new mental quickness and failed to mention that. We will have up to 700 spell damage and if FT-Totem scales with it i think GoA + FT could be better than wf alone.
#1358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.
#1359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nikiyaki
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
#1360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Nikiyaki View Post
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
I don't use trinkets with rage anymore. The amount of buffed AP I have on raids more than fills up my mana bar without the added 30 mana per hit with brooch up. Instead I use them as early as possible to squeeze in another use at the end. You are also much better off using relentless assault than you are using any other pot combination. Consider picking up mental quickness and dropping healing focus, it helps a bit.

Otherwise, um.. You have a ton of hit rating. Read the formula and see if any of your banked gear is superior to your stuff with a ton of hit rating (kara ring/moroes cloak for example).
#1361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Hedin,

I hate to be overly picky about things, but is there any way (perhaps by editing of lua files) I could change the text on the timer bars? I currently use WFCooldown which is a small, unobtrusive yellow bar with just "wf" in the middle of it as opposed to "WF 3 sec cooldown" on yours. Also concerning the melee stats window, is it possible to just show weapon speed? I think that may have been asked before but I'm not sure.

I'd like to use the various facets of your addon but I'm kind of particular about my UI =/
#1362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.

If I'm not mistaken, FT imbue and totem both scale with + damage, but with FT totem its the +damage of the person with the buff on their weapon.

So if you drop FT totem, sure you will get your +dmg bonuses but rogues/warriors/melee dps in your group i highly doubt will have any + spell damage gear on and would not recieve it. And I doubt you will have any melee locks/mages/spriests/ele shamans.
#1363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec

MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb

MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf

WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
#1364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Hello,
I've been reading this thread for quite a while now, been a great help to me!
But i've been wondering something for some time, is the Dragonstrike really that good?I do not have acces to Syphon, but i can get a Dragonstrike, if i manage to raise Blacksmithing
Now, i am an orc, so i'm curious, is the Wicked Edge not better?Also how good is Dragonstrike in comparsion to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver(as an orc) ?

Appreciate any answers!
#1365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Originally Posted by Capital View Post
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
I looked in the lua file and saw where to edit the bar text. Is there a way to drag the bar or are there only x/y coords?
#1366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Myul
I want to take up the discussion about windfury versus flametongue for the offhand again.

At first, some improvements of Disquette's numbers
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.15 = 2.967 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.967 * 1.13 = 3.35 (improved Curse of elements ->Malediction talent)
3.35 * 1.05 = 3.52 (Shadowpriest's Misery)
3.52 * 1.05 = 3.70 (5% spell crit rate)
3.70 * 1.15 = 4.25 (elemental weapons)

But i really miss a point, the partial resists. If i remember correctly, flametongue is a non-binary spell and that's why it can be partially resisted and that should lower the damage remarkable (especially on higher level differences), because the -resistances from curse of elements seems not to work for the second roll.
I'm sorry i can't find exactly numbers, but asking your warlocks spamming shadowbolts on lvl 72-73 mobs should confirm this, despite there is allways a curse up.

--

Ok, let's ignore the partial resistsfor the moment. What's about the offhand weapon speed?

Flametongue damage = (35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10) (from WoW Wiki

Using 2500 AP = 750 spelldamage, it's

(1.4 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shiv: 126.1 dps raidbuffed
(1.5 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Hacker: 120.4 dps raidbuffed
(1.8 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shanker: 109.1 dps raidbuffed
(2.6 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver: 90.7 dps raidbuffed

With higher AP (=spelldamage), faster weapon will even scale better with flametongue.

But please remember, that you have to simulate your flurry and unleashed rage uptime with your weapon combination and use all this numbers for an accurate over all dps.

Last edited by Myul : 08/14/07 at 12:45 AM.
#1367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
That's a decent amount of dps, but I think the main advantage of WF on the offhand is to increase your procrate for both hands to 36%. I can't wait for 2.3!!
#1368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Yesss!!!
Kael down, now I have 4/5 t5!!!
#1369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tataka
Specialization Flaw?

Forgive me if I missed this aspect, as there was a lot to read and I could have possibly skipped over it, but in checking out a good majority of the posters specs I saw that all of them went 20 points into Restoration in order to get that 3% increase chance to hit.

Now, assuming you have plenty of +hit gear wouldn't it be more viable to go with a spec that was Elemental/Enhancement rather than Enhancement/Resto ?

A spec that included the 4 Elemental talents ( Convection / Concussion / Elemental Focus / Reverberation) could theoretically put out more DPS as long as you don't have to be spot healing in 10-25 man raids. In the end it allows you to shock whenever it is offcooldown and have those shocks come 1 second faster every hit. Add that up over a long period of time and thats a lot of extra shocks / extra damage. In a ten minute Vashj fight, assuming you are fighting the entire duration (which is unlikely) you would get roughly 15 extra shocks in. Assuming they hit for around 700 - 1400 dmg each (high end on a crit) thats 10,500 dmg you weren't doing right there on the low end.

I currently use a 16/45/0 spec and have no trouble going OOM and am able to put out a good deal of DPS while still having relatively 'bad' gear.

I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.

Last edited by Tataka : 08/14/07 at 10:35 AM.
#1370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
#1371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Varag
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
#1372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
I think it comes down to personaly preference, but i have got the socket bonus on all my gear that has sockets available.

I guess i'm at the point where my damage isn't really an issue now, I provide the buffs now and put out competative damage (top 3-7) switching gems to all +str would not be of much benefit, as would dropping all hit items, I firmly believe that at this point with my level of gear hit is now close to being as important as other crit/ap/haste.

Miss rates on this weeks raids. (White damage) This is misses only (no dodges)
9% - Teron
7% & 8% - Gurtogg
9% - Azgalor
7% - Archimonde
10% - Najentus

Missing the WWS from the rest of clear for some reason.

Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
#1373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
#1374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Kombinat View Post
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
You really should update your profile so it links to your armory, having to open the page then search, then switch server area to find someone who wants our help is kind of annoying.

I'll edit this when i've had a look.

EDIT: Your gear isn't that bad, its worse than mine was when I first got to 70 though, Have you done all the quest that give rewards? I don't recalll having many of those items and I didn't have any lvl 60 enhancement gear.

The netherstorm/smv chain quests have some nice rewards and the desolation set comes from 5 mans, midnight legs from heroic slave pens.

If your going to kara though, and the other people are geared better or have the leather/mail gear already in there, you can probably skip all the above and go straight for kara epics.

Last edited by Stigmata : 08/14/07 at 11:44 AM.
#1375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Tataka View Post
I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.
I ran with 19/42/0 for a while, but it's actually not as good as I had hoped. The high cost of shocks with relatively low damage returns ended up not being worth it. I can get more dps from going improved totems, mental quickness and then totem twisting WF/GoA than I do from an extra shock. Just to throw some numbers out, my WF hits against Vashj were around 700 and my crits were around 1400. So 1 WF crit does more damage than a shock, and I don't have to put 15 points into elemental to get it.

Long story short, resto talents + totem twisting gives a much higher personal and group dps than putting points into elemental does. I don't think that will change before the new talents come out. Decreasing the cost of shocks and giving us more spell damage will go a long way towards making the first 20 points of elemental much better.
#1376SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Durigen
Kombinat -

Your gear isn't that bad for starting Karazhan. Though you could really use to socket some +hit gems. Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.

Don't be afriad to wear leather! Prior to Karazhan, there is some great feral leather out there that will give you really nice additions beyond the mail armor you have (particularly a good lucky drop from the rare spawn dragon in Blade's Edge, near Ogri'la, Hematiphus or something like that).

Bet on your tank not being geared up either, if that's the case get KTM Threat Meter (if you don't already) and be very very careful of your threat. Until the tank get's some really nice gear your going to be a strong contender for pulling aggro.

Other than that, just enjoy. Karazhan is really much more about technical aspects of raid performance than gear. Keep your totems up, and your DPS really won't matter as much as you think (even with the WF totem nerf).
#1377SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would suggest using the Lootzor link from the first post and setting the instances to "normal" which will show you a lot of Reputation, quest, and normal mode instance loot that you could work toward. Unfortunately for you, you picked the mail helm instead of the leather one from the quest, which would have been a lot better.
#1378SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
#1379SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
Thanks very much for the feedback, It's most appreciated. (I've updated my profile here as well, so should the question come up again it won't waste more of other's time.)

This guild had cleared kara before, it's on farm for the most part. Last night they gave the decapitator to a pally tank, just so he could use the on use effect while pulling when solo.

Given the non-homogeneity of 10-man raiding I'd honestly prefer to be better geared, given that there's more than likely to be group members who gain little to no effect from my buffs. That said, I'd like to think that the buffs I do give would be more beneficial than the lack of synergy with one to two party members. I've got the DPS warriors and rogues fighting over who gets to group with me in gruul attempts already, I'm just a little concerned about the actual viability of my own DPS in a 10 man situation.

I picked the helm before I knew about lootzor or stat weighting. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but thanks for pointing me towards something that would have taken up less of all your time. I often feel terrified while posting on here, lest I be hit with an infraction for being a tool, had I followed the links this mightn't have been necessary.

(I run Omen right now, and I'm very careful not to pull aggro. Thanks for the heads up though.)
#1380SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Besides using omen, I'd recommend that the number one thing you do is stay alive.

You don't have the get out of jail free card that many other classes do (ice block, evasion, cloak of shadows, shield wall, bubble, etc). Resultantly, you need to pay attention to your environment so you don't die. Besides the gentle (or not so gentle) ribbing you'll get for dying a lot, there's a feeling of nastiness you can get if you're dead and the melee suddenly lose a couple hundred AP, extra hit procs, etc..

Concentrate on staying alive until you're comfortable with all the encounters. If they're clearing Kara already, you're not going to be dps-competitive. That doesn't mean not to try your best to dps, it just means that your contribution is going to be even more skewed than normal by your buffs as opposed to personal dps.
#1381SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
Sorry to quote myself, but any thoughts on the above?
#1382SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata I just checked a few of my WWS parses and I'm showing a 7% dodge on many fights as well. Seems to vary though, other parses are showing as low as 3%.
#1383SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Strange, on the 6 I checked all were above 5%
#1384SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
#1385SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Igniter
I'm really torn between what pants to shoot for, I really like the -ac on azgalor's, bow stitch seems the best stat wise, but skyshatt has the set bonuses and such =\. I also don't like lootz0r, sue me. (since -ac is still pretty iffy)

Last edited by Igniter : 08/14/07 at 2:28 PM.
#1386SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
#1387SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
Just wondering if the following thread has been proven wrong. I know it's very old but was just curious as I still see it mentioned from time to time.
#1388SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
I was using ele/enh as well. But after swap over to enh/res, just like others you would be getting almost as much dps, but with better survivabilities. Being able to throw yourself a healing wave that can top you up in a lot of situation making yourself not being a liability to the raid. The rest of the point has been mentioned so i won't repeat. Things might change in patch 2.3 thou.

Just review some of my wws, was having dodge rating hover ard 5%, ranging from 3%-7% as well, and the last blindman fight was at 6%.
#1389SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
That thread seems so misleading.
As far as i know, by adding a 30% crit (imp backstab) it converts 30% of your hit% to crit%. and leaving your miss chance untouch.
So if you are left with 25% hit buffer, the extra 5% crit is not going to convert your miss to hit nor crit but just wasted.
#1390SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Ryley View Post
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
#1391SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
That's part of the reason I'm so interested in seeing how the coming changes affect things. On the one hand, 18 elemental may be sustainable. On the other you still have all of those intangibles. For me I just don't see myself going elemental as my secondary although it should be stated that having to go 45 into Enhancement makes the Resto tree a little less appealing with only 16 to spend in it.

Firm numbers will tell of course. I just think about that Maulgar run where an errant Blast Wave caught a couple healers and my healing literally was the difference between success and failure, light as a no +healing geared guy's healing is.
#1392SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
#1393SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
#1394SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
You can just spend 14 point in resto.
- 5 point for Imp Healing Wave.
- 2 point for Imp Ankh, 3 point in Totemic Focus
- 3 point for Nature Guidance, 1 for Totemic Mastery

Well this is my preference as i am playing as a dpser/off healer quite frequently.
An Enhancement/Resto Shaman will normally have around 45-50% white dmg, 35-40% windfury, 10% stormstrike, and the rest on misc like shocks.
An Enhancement/Ele Shaman will normally have around 45% white dmg, 30-35% windfury, 8-10% stormstrike, and around 10-15% shocks.

So spending 15-18 point to improve shocks wouldn't help you that much compare to Nature guidance, esp when Enhancement shaman faced threat problem as a major issue. Being able to self sustain and giving the raid more utility (totem range) is more useful.
#1395SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
I know a lot of people are intrigued by the possibilities of Elemental Devastation with the coming changes. Are we able to project out what sort of damage boost we're looking at if you went 18/43 or are we going to have to wait for some ingame parses?
#1396SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Viator, check this post
#1397SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Whoopsy!

That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office.

Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister.
#1398SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
#1399SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Remember that Ele Devastation only proc when you have a spell crits. For an enh shaman you will probably have around 5-6% spell crit (unless you trying to get spell crits from gem or gear other than int).

Here we assume:
- Taking 6% spell crit for theorycraft
- 9% of melee crit, last 10sec of Ele Devastation
- With 5sec shock non stop spamming

In an IDEAL case:
Ele Devast up time = 6% x 2 shock = 12% (Assuming the shock crit & land nicely)
12% x 9% = 1.08% avg melee crit

Compare to Nature guidance which is 3% melee& spell hit, is truely a big difference. I might be wrong in the ideal calculation. But i think it gives you an idea on how Ele Devastation is currently bad for enhancement shaman.

The incoming changes is not going to do anything to your spell crits but only spell damage. Unless they change it such that FT, FB crit proc for elemental devastation, else it is still not a good talent afterall.
#1400SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
That's referring specifically to interrupt abilities though. Another post by Quigon also states that mobs such as Vaelstraz would turn to cast and would proc strings of parries on rogues.

Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html
I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic.

Last edited by Malan : 08/14/07 at 4:30 PM.
#1451SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Well we certainly could do an average and work an AEP from that, but it would be pretty damn inaccurate.
I wouldn't say an average between 1.8 and 2.04 would be that big of a deal, it would certainly be more accurate than just ignoring the stat or treating it as some mysterious voodoo that can't be quantified.
#1452SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aiaeu
I understand that the windfury totem is still the best totem to use for melee groups BUT my group recently has been shaman, rogue,druid, hunter and usually an OT protection warrior. This particular rogue usually is the highest dps'r in the guild and I drop windfury for him. I was wondering if the dps of the singular rogue outweighs the rights of the others in the group. I usually twist the totems in the raid anyway but I want to know if windfury or agility should be the totem to drop in this type of group if i am unable to twist for a few seconds.

Also if i do get a fury warrior in the group how can i educate them on the windfury change. I've looked at the totem change page and I get lost in the details of rogues and warriors and conflicting information.
#1453SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
In the group you described I'd probably say GoA unless that prot warrior is particularly rage/threat starved. If you're getting a fury warrior he won't need to change too much, I believe the totem change thread mentioned using heroic strike a lot more.
#1454SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.

Any other gear advice would be greatly appreciated (besides getting merc offhand lol)
#1455SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
Originally Posted by Kreltok View Post
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.

Any other gear advice would be greatly appreciated (besides getting merc offhand lol)
from a raiding stand-point, the mace's proc makes it much better than the stun from the axe, not to mention looking better.

I think if you'll read up on previous posts in here or just do a search, you'll nab some answers.
#1456SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Kreltok View Post
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.
I'm not sure, but I reckon that that decision is up to you.

If you have all the cash in the world I'd say that you should go for it since that weapon will last quite a while.


(besides getting merc offhand lol)
No
#1457SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Suazo View Post
from a raiding stand-point, the mace's proc makes it much better than the stun from the axe, not to mention looking better.
What axe are you speaking of? I assume you thought he was talking about the 2handed mace?
#1458SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
I've been doing some reading but no clear answers really.

i dont have all the money in the world but if it will improve my performance and last well into BT then I will put forth the farming effort to get it.

and I'm actually planning on getting rod of the sun king for my offhand.

Just not sure how often the mace procs and if it's often enough to make it worth my while to farm up the mats.
#1459SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Kreltok View Post
I've been doing some reading but no clear answers really.

i dont have all the money in the world but if it will improve my performance and last well into BT then I will put forth the farming effort to get it.

and I'm actually planning on getting rod of the sun king for my offhand.

Just not sure how often the mace procs and if it's often enough to make it worth my while to farm up the mats.
It's not replaceable in current end game.
#1460SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Brum
Ashtongue trinket

Info taken down, based on skewed data

Last edited by Brum : 10/08/07 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Inaccurate data
#1461SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Has anyone got to exalted with The Scale of the Sands yet?

I was thinking that maybe the people who have been clearing Hyjal for a few weeks more than I have might already, the reason I ask is.

Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

Just wondering what sort of proc rate is on this ring, I think im still about 8 full clears from getting it, due to slackness in hyjal over the last few weeks.
#1462SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lolwhat?
My Gear and Stats, Better then average or no?

Hey everyone, im new here to EJ forums but I've been browsing them for a few weeks now. My guild isn't very progressed(Only downed Mag a few days ago >.<) so I only have limited resources, but here is my gear / stats:

Cowl of Defiance - 34 AP / 16 HR Enchant

Necklace of Trophies

Cyclone Shoulderpads - +8 Str / +4 Str +4 Crit gems - 26 AP Enchant

Scaled Breastplate of Carnage - +6 Stats Enchant (This is until I can grab the leather one or t4 if I get lucky)

Stalker's War Bands - 24 AP Enchant (Getting the Enchant changed to 12 Str soon)

Gloves of Centering - +4 Str +6 Stam / +20 AP Gems - 15 Str Enchant

Archery Belt of the Broken

Skulker's Greaves - +8 Str x2 / +4 Str +4 Crit Gems - Soon to have 50 AP / 12 Crit Leg enchant

Veteren's Linked Sabatons - Boar's Speed Enchant

Kaylaan's Signet

Band of Ursol

Core of Ar'kelos

Hourglass of the Unraveler

The Decapitator - 20 Str (Im getting mongoose when I can get back on WoW, I also intend on replacing this with Dragonstrike when I get my blacksmithing up, hopefully within the next few weeks.

Runic Hammer - 20 Str (Until I get my Merc Gladiator Axe in 2 weeks, Axe will have mongoose on it)

With that gear my AP / Crit / HR is around 1500+ / 24 or 25 / 125 HR

Im not on a computer able to run WoW atm so I couldn't tell you my exact stats but they are somewhere around there spec'd enhancement. I just wanted some of your guys input on how good or bad my stats are before I actually do respec.

Thanks in advance to all that do respond, I do intend on checking back here later on in the day.

EDIT: I could also swap my Violet Ring of the Grand Restorer for of the Master Assassin gaining some hit that I don't need from what I've seen and a few AP, while losing some crit.
#1463SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Has anyone got to exalted with The Scale of the Sands yet?

I was thinking that maybe the people who have been clearing Hyjal for a few weeks more than I have might already, the reason I ask is.

Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

Just wondering what sort of proc rate is on this ring, I think im still about 8 full clears from getting it, due to slackness in hyjal over the last few weeks.
Interesting ring. It seems that more and more they've settled on using procs as a way to differentiate PvE from PvP gear. That way they can boost the stats on PvE without having it effect the way PvP plays out, due to usually having to spend extended amounts of time in an attack cycle to get all your procs up.

I'd imagine the proc is enough to make it worthwhile, as shamans usually make 1 PPM items (Crusader) proc at 2, and going off of dual wield, probably almost 4. Which would point at about a 50% uptime, as there's very few things less then 1 PPM.
#1464SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Look at the pretty line I get when I look at AP in steps of 400, against larger steps of the increased hit and crit rate
Out of the 36 datapoints, we had:
Mean: 0.23 Dps/AP
StDev: 0.02 (9% of the mean)
This is dps/AP not (Dps/HIT)/(Dps/AP) wich is local AEP value.
Dividing something with a trend by something with another trend will yield you interesting result

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
It looks like we have a really great model for AP
Good, but how it is making static AEP good? This model can be used to calculate AEP values at different stat combos and that result should be evaluated. Furthermore, this graph shows (which is logical) that the more AP one has, the more important hit becomes, not static ratio hr= 1.3 ap. In other words, at every given AP value the worth of adding Hit instead of further adding AP is different.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Furthermore, since 30% is being accepted as the "close enough" barometer for values by Yo!, I'll use that to test the 36 datapoints I have. Exactly 0 of them fall outside 30% of the mean, so I guess I have a perfect data set.
Again - you are referring to the wrong data (dps/ap). This is not AEP.
30% is too much by my sense, I used it specially to show how many points are way off, not just off. Even 90% confidence is bad because it becomes (1 - 0.1^(attributes)) if used as an input of several weights, by for one by one comparisons 10% is ok with me.... almost

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
It even works out like we'd expect, with increasing returns on AP as our hit and crit rate increase (shown by the upward trend in the graph).
Exactly - which proves that static AEP value can not be used.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Now, back to the big_test.xls
My biggest mistake, probably, was making the steps too small. If you use larger steps, you get nicer numbers to look at. They make pretty graphs like the one above. It has so much variation between runs (that's how shaman work), that sometimes you get flukey things. When you were going through the result data, did you really think that increasing hit rating should decrease dps?
There is nothing wrong in taking small steps - you can always smooth them later. There were of course, some numbers that were negative, that should not happen at all. They occurred when AP was so small that increase of it by some percentage was providing not enough increase to dps to overcome random nature of the test. It did not happen at big numbers of AP and AP increase always resulted in dps increase (so if you are nude get big bad weapon first dont worry about gear with hit or crit). From the look at histogram you could see that there were about dozen of such negative points out of 600+.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Here's an example. I took three of the AP levels (I chose 900, 1700, 2500, because they're evenly spaced and are WAY out of each other's range, so they should satisfy your complaint about gear levels resulting diff APE ratings). I then eliminated half of the hit rating steps (increasing them by 100 instead of 50). This should give me a better picture, and again, should address your notion that APE are not valid across gear ranges.
Smoothing (increasing steps) is ok but too some extant, in order to calculate local AEP small steps are needed. Too much soothing resulted in creating static AEP that is evil.
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post

Now let's look at the pretty picture:
No, it's not nearly as nice as the AP graph, but it's still pretty consistent. Much more than the 70% variability you were discussing. In this case, the average dps/hitrating = .275. The stdev = 0.084 (for a stdev 31% of the mean). This time, using your "30% variation is ok" concept, 71% of data points fall into the acceptable range. If I look across all gear levels, and say that each hit rating is worth just a little bit more than one AP, I'd be pretty accurate, based on the two charts I have posted above, which cover almost the entire range of gearing choices.
Again, you are referring to the wrong data. AEP is NOT dps increse/per hit increase. It is "AP equivalence" and there is no AP at dps increse/per hit increase formula. You should use (dps increase from increasing hit/ by what number hit was incresed)/(dps increase from increasing AP/by what number AP was increased)

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post

Statistics can say what ever you want them to, pretty much. I could probably argue on Yo!'s side and say that all this theorycraft in here is utter garbage, at best meaningless to the shaman community, and at worst ill-advising people. I just need to find the right data that makes graphs that appear horrendous or beautiful.
That's why I'm glad that the theorycraft has been born out in actual game scenarios, with multiple people of varied gear-levels saying "i changed out my hit gems for AP or crit gems, started focusing more on crit and AP, and my dps went up significantly".
I don't know how shaman dps works in many instances. There's all sorts of things that are hard to account for. But just like looking for a coin at night, the first places you check is where it's already light, and you hope you find it there.
I am not saying theorycrafting is garbage in any way. I addressed very specific question "usefulness of static AEP values for gear choice" and showed that it is so limited that should be avoided because AEP is not static by it's nature - it is different for every possible combo.
#1465SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
I may have missed this somewhere... I just finished catching up on all of the posts, due to the recent change to the WF totem.

While raiding my typical group consists of 3 rogues and a feral druid (sometimes subbing a Rogue for a Hunter). Very recent developments actually allowed for 3 rogues and a dps war, but that is infrequent at best.

With these recent chanegs to the dps a Rogue and a Warrior recieves, what is better now? I saw one model earlier showing a Rogue with Poisons + GoA being very very close to a WF combo. And it seems that warriors gain nowhere near the benefit they once did. Which if you then add in my extra dps and the extra gained by a hunter or a druid...it may very well be possible it is no longer the correct answer to place a WF totem down.

I understand the basic mentailty to not using a WF totem is, "OMFG the world is ending!!!" but I'd like to be able to look past that and explain to my my GM and my melee dps'ers why I'm changing my totems up. And from some things I'm seeing, changing them up is the right way to go now. In the most recently posted model/example in this thread, it seems that if you have 2 class who do benefit from GoA, but cannot from WF, that GoA is now the superior totem in an Enhancement Shaman's party.
WF Totem or GoA? When to use in what combos?

1) 2 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham
2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)
3) 3 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Sham
4) 2 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Hunter, 1 Sham (this is the 2nd most common makeup in our raids)

Thanks!
#1466SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
The real answer would be for them to make flametongue totem's damage for the party scale in a reasonable way with the shaman's spell damage in conjunction with the upcoming changes to enhancement spell damage.

There would be a really nice synergy of another group buff that scales with the Shaman's gear there. Then you could do GoA+Flametongue totem and hopefully have comparable damage to windfury.

But then again, I've learned to stay away from "I wish" theorycraft because it's too painfull.

It would be nice if they provided an alternative outside of all windfury all the time for melee though.
#1467SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo! can you please give us an example of some items that you think are being valued wrong across the board for all shaman? I'm just not understanding this - to me its like your saying that the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on?

Maybe you just need to simplify what you're saying a bit.
#1468SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
I feel like I understand the gist of Yo!'s argument:
1) AP equivalencies are not 100% accurate.
2) Doing two simulations is theoretically a more accurate way to compare items.
3) Therefore, AP equivalencies should not ever be used.

I don't think he's getting disagreement on points #1 and #2. But point #3 is where he's getting disagreement from. Frankly, even though we are min-maxers, simulations still exhibit errors on individual runs. In fact, looking at the info Yo! referenced above, 2% (12/600) sims showed a decrease in DPS when increasing AP. Now, I'm far from an expert on statistics, but this would cause me to believe that there is a significant standard deviation on DPS when comparing multiple simulations at a single AP value. For comparison, Disquette's info showed a standard deviation of 9% for the DPS-value of AP. Unless we know that the comparison of any two sims will have a standard deviation of less than 9%, #3 is not supported; indeed, even if the standard deviation of those sims is far less than 9%, say 1%, AP equivalencies still are valuable for the sole fact that they make it very easy to compare two items.

And finally, Malan and I have requested an example of a case where an item is an "upgrade" by AP-equivalency metrics but a "downgrade" by either simulated or in-game testing. Such an example has not yet been produced, so until it is, I will continue to support AP equivalency evaluation.
#1469SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by everwatch View Post
1) 2 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham
2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)
3) 3 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Sham
4) 2 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Hunter, 1 Sham (this is the 2nd most common makeup in our raids)
I feel comfortable giving these answers:
1) WF
2) Questionable, needs math and/or further testing to back up an answer
3) WF
4) GoA
#1470SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
4) GoA
Assuming dagger rogues I'm guessing.


Everwatch, you may want to look into totem twisting if your group is that much into goa. All in all the WF nerf cries have been a little exaggerated. I see two combat fist/sword rogues in your guild, so for them WF would certainly still be worth it.

Last edited by Igniter : 08/16/07 at 7:40 PM.
#1471SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
according to the rogues I normally group with, poisonx2 and GoA out damages WF now.
#1472SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Rob
Well, I was actually assuming Combat Swords...
Rogue = 1% crit/40 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 2.3% crit, 92 AP, can apply Instant Poison. Probably less than the benefit of WF. But:

Hunter = 1% crit/25 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 2.3% crit, 92 AP, ~2% more Kill Commands and Feral Inspiration or Expose Weakness applications (unknown to me: crit/AGI and AP/AGI for pet; I here assume it scales consistently with the Hunter's)
Cat = 1% crit/25 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 3.68% crit, 92 AP
Shaman = 1% crit/25 AGI, 0 AP/AGI -> 3.68% crit, increased Flurry uptime by roughly 3.68% * 25% Flurry downtime = ~1% increased damage? (WF and white should both scale with Flurry uptime.)

If hunter DPS = 1x rogue DPS, cat DPS = 0.75x rogue DPS, and shaman DPS = 0.75x rogue DPS, then we have 2.3% + 2.76% + 2.76% = 7.82% rogue DPS (crit contributions) + some constant DPS from aforementioned AP contributions + some intangible DPS from increased Kill Commands and Ferocious Inspiration or Expose Weakness applications... if we estimate this as 2.18% (yes, chosen for convenience, but on the surface seems reasonable supposing the power of FI and EW) then Rogue DPS with Windfury must be at least 5% greater than Rogue DPS with GoA and Instant Poison.

Any testing with the new WF to show that still holds true? From the anecdotes I have seen on these boards, GoA/IP is nearly a wash with WF now for rogues. The other thread is mostly focusing on the fact that it's a huge nerf to 2H 33/28, and a reasonable nerf to DW... which are true but not useful for this particular investigation.

Last edited by Rob : 08/16/07 at 8:25 PM. Reason: forgot to include our increased Flurry uptime
#1473SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Btw speaking of AEP, can someone verify that I'm not crazy, lootzor keeps saying a pair of blue crafted gloves are some of the best available. Agree/Disagree? [Fel Leather Gloves]
#1474SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo! can you please give us an example of some items that you think are being valued wrong across the board for all shaman? I'm just not understanding this - to me its like your saying that the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on?

Maybe you just need to simplify what you're saying a bit.
Sure. Lets look at a guy with 5 empty gem slots, 2400 AP, 12% + hit, 18% crit.
Such guy performed 776 DPS that was recorded in big_test.xls
He is given an option to choose between 2 gems: +20 AP and +10 Hit rating assuming that color bonus does not matter for him (+1mana/5 sec). "Average AEP" says that 5*20 AP is much more favorable: 100 points against 70 points assigned to 5*10 hit rating. However, in a big_test.xls this guy with 2400+100 AP, 12% hit, 18% crit scored 790 DPS (3% increase), while the same guy with 2400 AP, 12% hit + 50 hit rating, 18% crit scored 813 DPS (4,7% increase). So, by choosing what average AEP suggested, he lost 1,7% of his initial total dps on gems alone.

So, yes, "the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on".
#1475SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Rob
@ Malan:
Seems reasonable because those gloves don't have any item budget invested in STA or INT so they have a comparatively large pool of points for AP, Crit, and Hit; additionally, the stat allocation is spread out between these three statistics and a red and yellow socket, so they aren't penalized as much by the rule that raises statvalues to the power of 1.5. (Item Values on WoWWiki for the uninitiated.)

@ Yo!:
OK, but what's the margin of error for each of those tests? Maybe the one at 2500 AP, 12% hit was under by 5% while the one at 2400 AP, 14% hit was over by 5%. Then the 20 AP gems would still be better. Focusing on the error in AEP while ignoring the error in simulations strikes me as odd.

I will also note that your example considered a person with high AP (2400) and very low hit rating (12% = only 47 hit rating), which is far from what the majority of shamans operate at. Does resocketing to hit gems still make sense at 100 hit rating? 125 hit rating? 150 hit rating? These are values more commensurate with a value of 2400 AP (even raid buffed -- and remember that you should not include UR when figuring how much base AP is needed to obtain 2400 raid AP since UR was modeled as a proc in Disquette's sims).

Last edited by Rob : 08/16/07 at 8:33 PM. Reason: point out how far situation is from typical
#1476SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malacort View Post
according to the rogues I normally group with, poisonx2 and GoA out damages WF now.
Look at this positive way - it frees 2 talent points and provides AGI for you to boost your DPS
#1477SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
#1478SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
OK, but what's the margin of error for each of those tests? Maybe the one at 2500 AP, 12% hit was under by 5% while the one at 2400 AP, 14% hit was over by 5%. Then the 20 AP gems would still be better. Focusing on the error in AEP while ignoring the error in simulations strikes me as odd.
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).

Does resocketing to hit gems still make sense at 100 hit rating? 125 hit rating? 150 hit rating?
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
" there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote 2).

Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 9:17 PM.
#1479SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Of course it does, Malan.

[Cataclysm Gauntlets]
77 AP
1.056 % Crit
1.52 % Hit
(374 HP + 396 Mana and ~ 0.3% Spellcrit)

[Fel Leather Gloves]
62 AP
1.08 % Crit
1.07 % Hit

[Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation]
77 AP
1.52 % Crit
0 % Hit

and compared to eg [Cyclone Gauntlets] (those aren't even on the list!)
59 AP
0.924 Crit
1.20 % Hit
(286 HP + 396 Mana + ~ 0.3% Spellcrit and 5mp5)

Conclusion: There is no huge range between all of them (beside set boni and a bigger mana- and healthpool).

To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.

Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
#1480SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.
Sure, that is why I got expected different AEP value from what would be with more hit.
And that is exactly why "average AEP" provided poor test guy with wrong suggestion for choosing gem. And that is why it should not be used by him. And you feel right that it is not worth reaching hit cap while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit because local AEP (true AEP for the specific stat combo) will favor AP and Crit much more than "average AEP". So, following what average AEP suggests is evil. I said it before, did not I?
#1481SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).



2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.

My problem with Yo!'s initial posts were that they made it seem like you got nothing out of assigning the average AEP values. Personally, I agree that AEP changes as you gear up differently. However, my original reason for writing the sim and finding results was to confirm that hit was the be all and end all of enhance shaman statistics - it was the conventional wisdom, but I hadn't seen it proved anywhere, so I wanted to see why. It was quite the shock to find it so underwhelming at certain gear levels.

I still think that it has valid uses - and for a starting shaman with average gear, it gives you a direction to aim for. Once you get to the boundary cases where you've used it to the point that you have 0 hit rating and 1800 AEP, I think it's certainly very worthwhile to re run the sims (or just comprehend it internally) to the point where you have to realize that you're going to get much more of a return on hit than you initially did.

back to the rectangle. Here's how I see shaman decision making 4 months ago based on the gear available then: It's H wide by AP tall.

When H and AP = 10, the area is 100.

It turns out that for $5, you can increase H by 2 or AP by 5. At that point in the general shaman world, people were choosing to increase H by 2 units instead of AP by 5.

Fast forward to the current day, when that rectangle is 8H wide by 20AP tall, for an area of 160 square units.

Now for the same $5, increasing AP to 25 gives you an area of 200. If you were to increase the H dimension by 2, however, you'd have a total area of 200 also - they've normalized.

AEP is good for shaman over a very wide variety of gear. However, when you get to the extremes that AEP will lead you, you will indeed start making sub-optimal gear choices. This is confounded more by the fact that the higher AP goes with raid buffs (people are now raiding with 3k+ AP often with buffs) that hit is going to become more and more important (as will crit, for that matter).

I don't disagree with Yo's statements taken by themselves. What I have disagreed with is that for the vast majority of shaman, the current AEP ratings would misguide them. Gear up through kara, when using AEP, won't let you neglect hit, so shaman have been ok. Accordingly, when I ran the sims, note that AP stopped at around 2500 and crit around 31%. Now that times have changed, and we can see where gear is, a new version should probably be done (esp with haste gear, which was unforseen by me, which would more strongly value +hit). It's impossible to use a constant set of values that is good for everyone, but I think that the ones that have been used to date have helped a lot of shaman from sinking into a trap of "Max +hit first, and then worry about your other stats".

As I've said repeatedly, if tornhoof can get a closed form of parameterized attributes working, that would be my preferred solution.

Yo! - I hope you realize that if I've sounded harsh, it's not because I disagree with the notions you have set forth. I just don't want people thinking that as they grow from dungeons to heroics to SSC/TK, they have been making bad choices. I think the AEP are ok up through that level. Now that we are beyond that, there probably does need to be a rejiggering of values (and preferably in a parameterized way).
#1482SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Btw speaking of AEP, can someone verify that I'm not crazy, lootzor keeps saying a pair of blue crafted gloves are some of the best available. Agree/Disagree? [Fel Leather Gloves]
Agree, since they are pure damage. You're giving up a lot of stamina and armor (and int, but...) using these though, as Myul pointed out. "My" rogues still use these for their damage sets and while I don't want to compare shamans to rogues, the stats both classes long for are basically the same.
#1483SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
they do use s2/t3+; we have 1 mace spec rogue using bt weapons, 2 sword rogues with s2/hyjal/bt weapons. They were telling me to use goa over wf since their poisons did more dmg than wf was giving them.
#1484SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end).
I think most of us understand and concede this point, but it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
#1485SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.
Disquette - it is a honor to talk the same theorycrafting language with you
Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:03 PM.
#1486SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Lolwhat? View Post
<lots of stats and crap>
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.

Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
!!!QUOTE SPLITTING!!!
This is dumb. Just say what you have to say without turning your post into a mountain of words.
#1487SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
What is "reasonable" gear combinations for you? Please take a look at big_test.xls - all of the combos recorded there were taken in-game. There are no 2800 AP 0 hit combos in there. AP runs from 800 to 2500 in 100 ap steps, hit changes from 12% to 25% in 50 hit rating steps, crit changes from 18% to 31.5%


... it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
If you will accept combos recorded in big_test.xls as "reasonable" than AEP is not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans that have such combos in game... Average AEP may provide worst suggestions to the most non-average geared players such as Elitist Jerks raiding BT . Especially with availability of +haste items. It will be actually possible to count exactly how many shamans will not benefit from "average" AEP if projects such as Armory Musings... will provide database for free download.
Each test at a given AP/crit/hit number was run for 1 hour, there were no repeated tests for the same AP/crit/hit combo. Disquette knows more about it as he is the one responsible for that test

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:38 PM.
#1488SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
I allmost understand your cube/square example, but shouldn't you try to fit it to our certain problem?
By only comparing hit and ap, there is some point (0% hit), when ap won't benefit you something, to.
But we are not talking about the minimum stats, we are talking about some much more common stats. The extremes might happen once in a blue moon and are a mathematical phenomenon, but aren't important in this case.

No person will spend all his dkp to gain 100 other ap, the margin is so much smaller..
He maybe lose 1-2% hit or crit of 15-30%, but shouldn't drop under some minimal stats.
Maybe we should describe them in the beginning post, to.

Every shaman will need x% hit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.
Every shaman will need y% crit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.

Using x=15%, y=25% and z=2.6 while proofing this with any of the simulators should be enough.
Of course, the set aep might not be true for some data examples somewhere far away from this, like x=5%, y=50% and z=4.0 ..

edit: to your last post, you are saying the average aep aren't right because the people don't have the same average stats after farming karazhan? Of course, there will be differences. But i really doubt, for adding 2% crit and 100 ap from better gear your stats would change to something odd like

Haste Rating = 3.7
Strength = -4
Crit Rating = 7
Agility = 5
Hit Rating = 3
Attack Power = 24

All what happen is, that it might change to something like

Haste Rating = 2.3
Strength = 2.1
Crit Rating = 1.9
Agility = 1.7
Hit Rating = 1.6
Attack Power = 1.05

---

Lootzor could need some updates, i think. There's no season 2 gear listed except the shoulders and some items have still not updated their socket boni.
Because of the high value of some leather helmet's (ignoring the far better agi/critdmg meta gem) and the fel leather gloves, i started valueing stamina a little bit, too.
You won't want to play with raidbuffed 8.000 hp at trash or other bosses than ebonroc, so it's not that important.. ->

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

(assuming bok and using the exactly numbers for hit & agi, no rounding issues).

You will notice, that allmost all good items still stay on top of the list, so it won't matter with your choices for t4+ gear.
#1489SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lolwhat?
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.
Like I said, I wasn't on a comp that could play wow and im not spec'd enhance atm so posting my armory wouldn't have done anything but linked my resto gear. I'll log out in my enhance gear when I log tonight though.
#1490SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Hi guys, first of all i'd like to say thanks for the glut of helpful information here. I switched to enhancement about 2 weeks ago and am currently trying to gear up to be useful in raids, your compilation has helped immensely.

On to my question and i hope it hasn't already been asked (i've read as much as humanly possible, but didn't spot this specifically anywhere.

I'm currently using [Reflex Blades] Main hand, and am struggling to find anything offhand thats slower. My current off hand isn't showing on the armory, but its a 2.60 green axe (65.6dps if i remember right) and i'll be picking up the High Warlord axe this weekend, but even that is only 2.60.

Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
#1491SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I actually don't understand the whole AEP discussion at all, we have several more or less valid models of shaman enh dps. Each and every model has a certain weighting towards one or more stats, my model is more fond of hitrating and hasterating than of critrating.

My current model rates the attributes at a 2.2k AP,22% hit, 25% crit gear for:
1CR = 1.18HR
1CR = 1.045Str (incl. BoK)
1CR = 0.794 HasteRating

Actually I don't know why anyone should care about AEP values for unbuffed non raid envionments, there is no reason to use AEP if you never have BoM, BoK, Battleshout and Elixir/Flask.

Now to the mathematical finer points of the whole discussion.
your attributes/stats are not linearly independent, +crit increases +ap to a certain degree and +haste (if you take flurry as a haste rating (which is a valid assumption)) etc, the only
stat which is practically independent of everything else is AP. Other than that I do agree that the calculated AEP values are only valid for a fairly small window.

To me it is kinda obvious that it is not possible to compare two individual items on your equipment based on AEP, it has to be obvious for me, otherwise writing my program would have been lost time
#1492SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Blackmoon View Post
Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
Keep your MH, a 2.6 OH is fine. You'll be able to pick up a 2.6 MH in KZ. With matching speed weapons the MH should swing first but there's some situations where it can get out of sync, but neither hand has a 'priority' for procs.
#1493SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
I assume you are referring to [Fool's Bane], which i must admit i'd not seen before
What i meant by priority was swing order from the start of an attack, rather than procs, as in both weapons don't strike simultaneously even if the speed is the same. If this is the case then MH would have the first chance to proc windfury, even though both are the same speed.

I assume? In either case thanks for your advice, i look forward to forcing my guild to fight Terestian (oh they are going to love that...).
#1494SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Blackmoon, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] or [The Decapitator] are good weapons, too. So if your guild doesn't like Illhoof, go for one of them.

Regarding weapon swing order: When you start combat in melee range, the mainhand will always strike first.
#1495SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Yeah i checked out the paw, and decided to go for the slower hitters if i could. Of course if it drops i can always adapt Plus it will make it easier to find a off hand thats slower...
hmm...
methinks you might have thrown a monkey in my carefully balanced plan.
#1496SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
# Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
#1497SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
I'm thinking of rolling a Shaman but I'd like a little bit different gameplay from my Rogue so I'm wondering if 2-handers are viable for an Enh Shaman and what the spec might look like? I've tried searching a couple of times but never found anything, all the talk is about dual wielding and comments would be much appreciated.
#1498SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Disquette, Yo! et al - perhaps what we need are 3 (or more) sets of AEP that establish some baselines. ie, while leveling 1-70 with pretty minimal AP/Hit/Crit available, here's the AEP you need. For 70 normal/heroic/KZ instances, use these other values. Once you hit XYZ values of stats, roughly SSC/TK time frame, use these. After you've geared in SSC/TK and you're at the extreme top end of stats, now use these other AEP for Black Temple and Hyjal.

@Jelu - 2H is relegated to PvP for the most part, and even in PvP it may not be the clear winner anymore. DW is superior for PvE purposes. The days of shaman swinging big huge 2H's is pretty much over. It varies enough from a rogue either way.
#1499SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Severjanin
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
#1500SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Severjanin View Post
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
The use on the decapitator is fucking awesome and I wish we had a talent to throw our weapons. I use it on transitions and it was pretty fun for the 1 week I was using it in pvp.
#1576SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Morelis:

Did you use an alt to farm the mats for your tradeskills? Or did you buy it up off the AH? I'm currently enchanting and JCing *was mining*, but I've been itching to get the Dragonstrike and that leather shoulder pattern. Should I bother?
Post-nerf Dragonstrike is still pretty decent, the shoulders aren't worth it anymore though. I had mining on an alt for BS and when I decided to do LW I took skinning first and farmed everything I needed to get to 375 then dropped it to pick up LW.
#1577SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
panny
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.

I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.

I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.

I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.

Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45

Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?

I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.
Another thing to consider is the fact that more haste/hit will give you a higher uptime on the buff. Particularly, the [Dragonspine Trophy] procs alot. However, the buff from the mace and the DST both have the same name ("haste"), so even with logs, you can't check exactly which is proccing. This makes the exact uptime in the optimal case difficult to test. Here's a comment about these items and the haste nerf.

As an aside, I've been swapping in and out my AP gear for my +hit gear, and my DPS has been fairly consistant across attempts, possibly due to the affect my procs are having. My guild isn't up to BT yet, so if a Shaman with both Dragonstrike/DST can test their damage on Teron with a +hit set and an AP set, I'd be fairly interested.

Last edited by panny : 08/19/07 at 9:20 PM.
#1578SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by forge View Post
I'm trying to keep something like 130-150 hit rating, aiming to keep 25% crit and going for 1500AP now after that going for more crit and more crit as it comes. I've been doing some testing on lowering my hit and so on but i'm not sure if it helps a lot or am i just gimping my stats by going all the wrong ways.

So, my current stats are:
AP 1463
Hit 123
Crit 26.04%

If i change my gear a bit i can go:
AP 1404
Hit 157
Crit 27.32%
Your best bet with any gear decision, provided your stats are well rounded (which they seem to be), is to simply do the AEP math and go with what's rated best. The AEP values are designed to eliminate guesswork.

Here's an example of where they're useful (excluding the complex dynamics of WF and SS, under the assumption that at this level they scale AP/HR & Crit the same as white damage). In your example here, you've essentially sacrificed about 4% of your absolute damage. In exchange, you're gaining 1.28% crit and 2.15% to hit, for a grand total of 3.43% more damage by chance. So you've nerfed yourself slightly. If you don't drink Major Agility, drop GoA or group with druids, you may need that extra 1.28% crit chance to keep up Flurry and Rage, and that may be worth a loss of .6%.

Get Pawn and Outfitter going and just compare your gear. It may be there's a real good combination in your bank already, just waiting to be discovered. I gained about 40 dps the first time I did this, re-equipping well rounded gear I otherwise might have sharded.
#1579SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I think a good target to aim for is 1500AP/150Hit/25% crit unbuffed, from there you can decide what you prefer and what you think is better for you.

There does not seem to be a right and wrong, If I drop more hit for AP, my DPS does not increase, likewise if I get more hit at the cost of AP my dps does not change.

My next target will be 1700AP/200Hit/30%Crit. The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
#1580SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Hmm ok so I was testing this in 5-mans (Fist weapon MH and OH out of Arc/Bot)

It seems I get more DPS consistently using the WF/FB combo whereas the first post said WF in the OH will substantially have more DPS.

I'm not getting something behind the theorycraft behind the weapon imbues maybe?
#1581SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
#1582SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by drc View Post
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
#1583SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
#1584SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...


Click Here ← Click Here
Pro Tip: Don't use Frostbrand. Ever!
#1585SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...
That's what I was asking, if someone could clarify something for me, because in all honesty...I'm not getting something.

I was NEVER into theorycrafting for Shamans until now.

Should I use WF/WF for Slow MH/Fast OH or Slow MH/Slow OH.

I don't know how to maximize DPS with certain weapons (Slow or Fast weapons) with certain weapon imbues.

Pre BC, it was easy. Grab a 2H (It's slow), put WF on. You're set.

So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.

Last edited by Usernaem : 08/20/07 at 7:21 AM.
#1586SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3scrub
I am really hoping that at level 80 an enchancement shaman will have more than 2-3 buttons to push, because at the moment I find shamans an incredibly boring class to DPS as.
#1587SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
#1588SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
#1589SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
WF/FT
#1590SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malevolencia View Post
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
What % of guilds use boomkins?

I dont know of any top guilds using them (not to say that they dont)
#1591SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?

Last edited by Malan : 08/20/07 at 8:27 AM.
#1592SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?
Not exactly, until I replace it.

I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it. Thanks to the other guy btw for answering my question perfectly.
#1593SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
LiteSabre
A question to enhance shaman in endgame guilds: How much DPS do you normally put out?

A resto shammie I know recently respecced to enhance after we got Illidan down; he'd been gathering enhance loot on and off and wanted to try out being DPS. I tried to help him out as much as I could through this thread (he doesn't speak English), and we managed to whip his gear into a rough approximation of what I think might be normal. He is a bit low on hit though, but higher on crit than I think most enhance are. Dunno if the link will work, but here's the armory (dragonstrike/nathrezim instead of the 2hander, normally). Pants are Bow-stitched Leggings with +10 str in all 3 sockets. He hasn't gotten the totem of astral winds (is that right?) to drop yet.

Anyway, he was really pumped up, but he was only able to put out 600 to 700 DPS or so and got depressed when he compared himself to the other DPS, especially the elemental shaman who were putting out well in excess of 1200 DPS. I don't know if there's something he's doing wrong as I can't play for him, but I was wondering if there's some crucial something I'm missing and haven't told him. Is there some kind of secret DPS cycle that you guys use? :P

Last edited by LiteSabre : 08/20/07 at 9:15 AM.
#1594SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Enhance DPS is pretty dependent on group buffs - he needs to make sure he's getting BattleShout, maybe LotP, and definitely needs to be using consumables (food, pots). I can't read Korean so I can't comment much on his gear, but his AP/Crit/Hit totals seem to look ok - the only thing I'd question is that he seems to be wearing a Drake Fang Talisman? If so, replace that ASAP. There's no secret cycle, depends a lot on what fight you're saying he's getting that DPS on.
#1595SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it.
He was rude because the answer to your question is pretty much spelled out in the bumper post:

You will get better dps RIGHT NOW by dropping that fast OH and picking up a crummy green OH with 2.6 speed and putting WF on it. I can vouch for this, because I made that EXACT trade and saw a hefty boost.

If you insist on using a fast OH, by all means use WF/FT, but realize you're nerfing yourself. Hey, I think that weapon combo looks awesome too -- but it didn't help my raid much.
#1596SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LiteSabre
The only party buff he gets is battle shout, and he uses major fortitude+major agility with the strength food.

Yeah, that's a DFT. I told him to scrap it but he insists that he needs it or he loses too much hit. Bah. I assume I'm not mistaken that a bloodlust brooch would be more effective than the talisman?

The fight in question was Anetheron, but he achieved similar numbers on Morogrim, Teron and Rage Winterchill. Basically near-tank'n'spank fights. The highest I ever saw him go was 730 or so.

The thing is, I (and most of our raid) was under the impression that enhance shaman were masters of 'winning the threat meter'. At least then it's be a question of threat cap and not of DPS. So when he wasn't even visible on the threat meter, it seemed to hit him pretty hard.

Oh, and another question: for weapons, he has access to one Merc. Gladiator's Cleaver, Syphon of the Nathrezim, Dragonstrike and an assortment of daggers/fast OHs that I promptly said no to after reading this thread. I'm assuming that the best possible combination would be MH Dragonstrike/OH Nathrezim; is that correct?
#1597SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I understand why melee haste was changed. It was such a bargain that it was the preferred stat for almost every physical dps build.

That said, they did not perform an adjustment. It was outright nerfed it to hell. It appears that they more or less just decided to remove this mechanic from the game which is a shame because it was a good one in my opinion.
#1598SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
/edit: Nevermind, should refresh this page before replying.
#1599SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
#1600SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Iol View Post
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
Without impractical sacrifices, the hit cap is unattainable for Shaman. Also if end game gear is assumed, I think it is really important to consider 'Ingores Armor.' This stat will never be modeled well but it applies to 90% of our damage same as Str/AP do and is reasonably priced.
#1651SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Anghren View Post
stuff about wf proc rate
April 17th...

WoW Forums -> WF Proc (same rank MH/OH) is still > 20%

I've done repeated tests, and going through the combatlogs, I was pretty much shocked to see that WF is actually proc'ing on about 34% of eligible hits.
This was back before I thought of EJ as my home board ;-)

Malan, I just checked through the initial post, doing a search for 34%, 35%, or 36%, and didn't see any mention. It might preempt a couple questions if you include something like:

Windfury Proc Rate: When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a sword and shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%.
#1652SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Yah that one slipped by me, I realized this morning we were missing that bit of info. I'll add it now.

@Drc - the 12 AP = 1DPS was proposed by Hedin, it was a result of simplifying the weapon damage formulas once Weapon Mastery was included. I removed it from the OP because it was a confusing issue. People thought it meant that every 12 AP meant their DPS should go up by 1, but the DPS was referring strictly to the weapon's physical damage per second.

Last edited by Malan : 08/21/07 at 10:21 AM.
#1653SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
True, the sim covered percentage of WFs lost due to hidden cooldown with static speeds. Storm strike was added on top of normal swings.
No cross-interactions from items and abilities with ppm, on-use, flat % proc were modeled.
#1654SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
I wrote wf3sec, and now It is split in 3 - see my Signature.
Great, how do I move the melee frame around?
#1655SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
#1656SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
vorda
Originally Posted by Jelu View Post
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

edit: and following posts. (obviously..)

Last edited by vorda : 08/21/07 at 12:48 PM.
#1657SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I Post 1651 states Dragonstike at 98 AEP,


Wicked Edge of the Planes
Binds when picked up
UniqueMain Hand Axe
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70

(97.6 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Axesmith
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.


23 CR = 46 AEP
48 AP = 48 AEP

Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
#1658SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
Afaik, the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)

I wonder how the comparison would be for someone with double mongoose and a dst.

On the other hand, we still dont know almost anything about the new values/effect of weapon skill, right?
#1659SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Normally I would test this myself, but it's maintenance day so I'll ask here instead:

Does FT calculate it's damage based on hasted or unhasted weapon speeds? I'm wondering in anticipation of the 2.3 talent changes.

I see: http://elitistjerks.com/298540-post81.html
Flametongue gets only 10% of spell damage with no modifier for weapon speed.
But that statement was made before people had the access to passive haste that they do now.
#1660SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I'd suggest something closer to 2600-2700 ap, 35% crit (to approximate mongoose uptime, or lotp) 15-16% hit (around 100 rating) 8-10% haste (a few items + mongoose). It's been annoying me a bit lately that we keep referring back to baselines that just aren't very representative of good enhancement gear anymore.
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
#1661SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
I havent come accross any extensive research pertaining weapon skill for shamans.
im sure it functions the same as any other class but a specific AEP value for 1 weapon skill for a shaman hasnt been concluded.

As you said "the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)".
If you were to Average the uptime of a Dragonstrike and set it to a "permanent" haste effect, it would equivalent to about 60-70 haste rating, in our terms for valueing gear, thats between 91.2-106.4 AEP.

You claim that there is addition value for haste because it increases procs and and trinkets ithout internal cooldowns, well so does crit due to flurry.
you could be extensive and say that theoritcaly with a 33% crit rate you would be in a constant flurry state due to 1 in every 3 attacks being a crit.

My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
#1662SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
Average AEP system is wrong. The deeper you go into theorycrafting the more you will realise this.
Here are AEP values for Tornhoof example few posts above (2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon):
1 AP = 1
1 Haste rating = 2.675
1 Hit rating = 1.965
1 Crit rating = 2.014

Compare it to the values from first page that people continue to use:
Haste Rating = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
#1663SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
#1664SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
The example with coins is wrong. You will not get average AEP values for the stat combo that Tornhoof posted no matter how many times you will flip a coin. SSC/TK/KZ gear levels is too wide, inside of that gear levels local AEP values are significantly different from average for most stat combos. For explanation and data proof refer to my previous posts.

Here is what should be written on first page instead of average AEP values:

"AEP is system that compares stats by assigning value to each stat that shows how much DPS will increase by increasing your stat by 1. Please notice that AEP values are not stable and may vary a lot from one stat combination to another . To get AEP values for your current/desired gear - use sim. Here is a list of stat combos with their corresponding AEP values:
Tier 4 -
Tier 5 -
Tier 6 -
Crafted with haste -
etc...
AEP system's use is further limited by non-linear cross-dependance of stats. If you to make a choice between 2 gear upgrades that benefit several stats the one better in-game may be different from the one suggested by AEP. For better grounded choice - use sim. Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". "
#1665SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.
No, unless you will do the testing and prove the blue wrong, i will take his word on it seeing as noone else can provide some info on it.
I value axes at around 30AEP atleast, so i'd take Wicked Edge over Dragonstrike any time.
#1666SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Afaik the +haste value was pre 2.1 too (not sure though)
#1667SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use an equal amount of item budget as the increasing factor? As it stands there you have them lined up in the order of how much you spent on the difference, which really isn't very meaningful. By the way I wasn't suggesting that just AP be increased, I was suggesting that the baseline stats be modified to match what a shaman in T6ish gear will have, I'm sure you can see the relevance of that. Also, plugging the updated stats into Pater's sim does produce changes worth noting, if your model doesn't then we can assume one of them has gone astray.
#1668SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Aurvandil
2 Questions

1. I'm an enchanter and I almost have access to the +4 stats to ring, would that be better to use than +2 weapon damage?

-I figure the +4 stats is worth 4 agi * 2 + 4 str * 2.2 = 16.8 AEP, but also gives the modest benifit of the other stats being boosted

-obviously the +2 weapon damage will depend on your weapon speed. I use 2 2.6 speed, but when you count in dual mongoose, dragonspine, and 73 passive haste(6.94%) the speed becomes much lower. With just flurry and passive haste my weapon speed is 1.84

-it appears that on the character sheet it shows the +2 weapon damage being applied to both hands, and isn't affected by the offhand penalty.

-given the above, +2 weapon damage should be +2 weapon damage * 2 weapons / 1.87 speed = 2.139 dps

+2 weapon damage > +4 stats

2. WorldofRaids says that on the PTR haste for melee has changed from 10.5 haste rating per 1% to 15.7 haste rating per 1%. What would be the new AEP value of haste?
-On my pawn string I had haste rated at 2
-I noticed the link in this thread rating it at 2.22
-so the new rating would be (10.5 / 15.7) * old rating right? so 1.48 if its rated at 2.22, 1.33 with my rating of 2(though I'm probably going to change that.

can someone check my math on this? am I calculating #1 and #2 correctly?

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/21/07 at 5:10 PM.
#1669SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Yo already rewrote my DPS values into AEP, I prefer DPS values over AEP because you can convert them to whatever equivalency model you like and especially compare them to other results from other models.

My model probably overrates +haste a bit.
#1670SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Aurvandil
fine

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/22/07 at 2:07 AM.
#1671SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Aurvandil View Post
Oh yeah I have a 3rd question, at blizzcon...
Edit: I'm an asshole.. Sorry.
#1672SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Aurvandil View Post
Another benifit of the 1 second off your shock cooldown is that you should never run(not counting lag) run into the problem of having both your shock cooldown and stormstrike cooldown up at the same time.(currently when this happens, we stormstrike which triggers the gcd and wastes 1.5 seconds of our shock timer), but technicly if the shocks were on a 5 second cooldown it should never overlap?

They will overlap more often of course
#1673SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo, if you provide the values for some reasonable AEP steps, I'll gladly put them in a table on the first post. I'm hesitant to label them as "T4, T5, T6" etc, as that puts arbitrary limits on gear to an unexperienced shaman reading the values. (ie, they might discard huge upgrades from lower lvl zones because its not in their "tier") I think a more reasonable way of doing it is describing it in reasonable steps of AP/Crit/Hit. So a lvl 70 entry-level shaman would have X AP, a mid-level shaman would have X+A AP, and a high-level shaman would have X+B AP, etc etc.

To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
#1674SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
Assuming, but should be stated, these would be Buffed Values?
#1675SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
I'd say, without hard numbers to back it up, going for elemental shock talents is probably worth it until about halfway through SSC in progression. At that point your melee damage will be scaling fairly rapidly. You also get far more benefits from things like increased totem range and quicker ankhs around that point with larger/longer fights.

The elemental talents are good, but currently do not scale at all with gear. So after a certain point, your elemental damage won't be scaling along with the extra damage the 3% hit gives you.
#1801SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
From WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes



Guess it's official now, I don't feel like I got fucked at all.
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
#1802SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
I agree -- stop trying to convince the guy that WF is better.

Instead, put him in a group with hunters, druids, poison rogues and warriors who still use sharpening stones, where he can do no harm.

Ignoring AP for a second, Windfury is an extra 20% to white melee damage. GoA is at maximum + 3% to all melee damage. Windfury is therefore always better than GoA when white damage is more than 15% of total melee damage.

In groups, assuming everybody's dps is equal and white damage accounts for at least 40% of overall damage, Windfury is superior if only two members pick up the buff off it.
#1803SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
Sorry I guess I missed it, doesn't seems there's been much outcry though so I guess no one is concerned. Apparently the key to good nerfs is getting them in while they only affect a minority of the playerbase.
#1804SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaay
Well hes still very reluctant to give us it. I think its time to give up theres no chaging his mind.
#1805SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hedin
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.

Last edited by Hedin : 08/24/07 at 4:23 AM.
#1806SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)/10=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
#1807SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
#1808SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...
Wow, that's a pretty weak coefficient; I had assumed it was 43% like the other instant spells.
#1809SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
Hello,

my first post here.
Thanks you very much for the info in this thread, it rules.
It is good reading material in the morning here at work and it really helped improve my performance.

I have some questions (and yes i have read the previous 70 pages)

1) does tranquility stack with salvationi. I ask this because on some fights our dps warrior has problems. I dont think they do but i want conformation of smarter people .

2) does totemtwisting improve your own dps also? And by how much it increases it the dps of the others if you dont totem twist.
Our group setup is a pve dualwielding fury warrior, 2 (or 3) swords rogues, and sometimes one feral druid.

3) my own performance should improve I heard. We run with 2 enhance shamans, one in MT group and one in melee group. Normally i go in the melee group and try to improve the dps of our group to the max. For me this is the most important. Therre are some complaints though that my own dps is not as high as the other enhance shaman.
He is a bit better geared but I think it has to do with our task though.
So this is my armory link The Armory can you give me some good tips.
This are our wow web stats overview Wow Web Stats.

I know my trinket is not that good but i hope to get the hourglass and the bloodlust brooch this weekend (bloody things never drop and I made a mistake in heroic badges once).
I hope to get the tsunami talisman soon also.
Good boots seems to have dissappeared in the loottables when I am arround but i keep clearing KZ every week for it .

Normally i use SS when i can (trying not to be in the wf cooldown, thanks for the maker of this addon ), and a rotation of Flame shock and earth shock.
My SS is used up last runs by our elemental shaman.

Our guild has killed 3 bosses in SSC and 2 in the Eye. Loot in our tier 5 instances has been poo and i have loads of dkp to spend (if something usefull would drop)

Any other tips to cycles, gear or other stuff. Should i play more "egocentric" to upper my dps?

4) is the trinket for alchemy any good for us? Did not see it in the thread and i am not sure.
For me it helps when using mana pots on fights where shamanstic rage is difficult to use.
What would be the value of it comparing to other trinkets. Should i keep using it?

5) we have lots of theocrafting how much dps a shaman brings to a melee group but i did not see any theocrafting how much a enhancement shaman brings to threat.
In the MT group we have a prot warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman and then 2 out of a resto druid, prot pala, affliction warlock.
How much extra threat and dps he brings in that group. We ran a farmrun yesterday to gruul without a shaman in the MT group and i heard people complain that threat was much lower.
So any theocrafting on this one?

Already thanks for my difficult questions and keep up the good work Malan and the others.

__________________
"Emocow"
#1810SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Tshonka

1) 44% threat reduction with (only) Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air. Kenco: A Guide To Threat.

2) From the OP: The shaman is placed on constant global cooldown. The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds is enormous. Raids that do not have paladins using Judgment of Wisdom will be unable to sustain this method. The shaman will have very little mana available for shocks and will likely only be able to sporadically use flame shock.
(In summary I doubt it'll improve your own DPS but it'll increase the DPS the group gain from you )

3) Personally I'd say no to playing more egoistic but ultimately it's your choice of course.

4) For the few times you need to chug a pot sure it's great but I have no doubt other trinkets (DPS ones) will benefit you more overall.

5) Haven't played my prot warrior for a while now but I used to see a significant increase in my KLH TPS with Windfury totem at the time.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#1811SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
1) It stacks.

2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.

3) There is no technique to playing a shaman imo, you dont have to keep up certain things (s&d, Mangle etc) so simply always being behind the mob, using your CD's effectively and keeping down your totems will provide you with pretty reasonable DPS.

4) The trinket blows, bloodlust brooch, hourglass, abacus, crystal forged, are all easily attainable.

5) Having 2 enhancement shamans imo is a waste. Your tank should not need a shaman to be able to generate enough threat.

Finally you've wearing all mail, any reason why? I think up till BT i was wearing 50% leather.
#1812SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
raason why i wear mail is because of history earlier

1) i had a serious dislike for a shaman who ran around healing in cloth, he died just by looking at him. This was of course in vanilla wow but still now if i can get the mail stuff i would rather have that then leather.
But i checked the lootzor link and maybe i should go for more leather then

2) dont want to "steal" the stuff from our rogues and feral druids but maybe i should begin with that .

3) i will replace the trinket then

All thanks for the info already, if you have more advice just let it flow

__________________
"Emocow"
#1813SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

__________________
Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that.
#1814SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
@Hed

Just tested, because frankly i've never used Flametongue since getting Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Nope, it doesnt proc from FT. Interestingly enough, it doesnt even proc from windfury, something I submitted a petition about months ago. WF being a physical attack you'd think it should activate the trinket. The GM thought so as well and told me it was a bug, but then again, hes a GM not a Dev. the latter seem to have funny notions of... well pretty much anything.
#1815SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Tshonka --
You need better trinkets, my man. The Brooch, Abacus or Hourglass to start (easy farms), even the Skyguard trinket (since you're probably already exalted with them, it's 3g for 68 AEP without the proc), but you should really fight for the Dragonspine if it drops.

Don't worry too much about dumping mail for some leather. It's nowhere near the same as wearing all cloth. I have a few leather pieces and much lower class gear than yours, and yet only have about 6% less DR. Is 6% really going to save you from being one-shotted?

If you're worried about threat & survivability, here's a suggestion: get a nice gear mod like Outfitter. Find a high armor, high block shield and set it up as a key binding. The second your threat mod tells you you've exceeded 90% of the tank you're standing behind, switch to the shield, and the second you drop below 80%, switch back to DW. This gives you survivability way beyond what a few pieces of mail can give you. The AEP values of some of those leather pieces are just insane. You could use some extra +crit!
#1816SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
No, FT does not proc this trinket. Neither do frostbrand, or totem crits. :-/ Also shocking to max buffs is kinda difficult, in practice I found I was only able to stack 3 or 4 buffs before one of my shocks was resisted. I suppose you could drop a lightning bolt or something to keep it going, but that would be a horrible decrease in melee damage.

On a side note, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] might become a decent combo again once 2.3 hits due to FT since the Wrath buff doesn't get consumed by FT crits. I'll probably have to do PTR testing on this to find anything conclusive.
#1817SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Edit nevermind that was silly.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1818SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
So, to bring something new into the thread...

Here they are discussing the effect of Weapon Skill. While it was previously believed that weapon skill grants 0.1% hit and 0.04% crit per point (not to be confused with weapon skill rating), it now appears that it's actually better than that for the first 5 points of weapon skill. This is a big deal for Enhancement Shamans because we have no way of getting Weapon Skill from talents like Rogues.

In fact, the only item I'm aware of that grants weapon skill to non-daggers that we can equip is the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Theoretically, this should give me an extra 2% hit and 0.24% crit with my Main Hand from the Weapon Skill rating, so I picked it up last night. (Sadly, my offhand is an axe and is not affected by this item... back of napkin math, 900 DPS 50% white 66% of which is MH, extra 2% hit = 900*.5*.66*.02 = 5.94 DPS; extra 0.24% crit 900 DPS 90% physical 66% of which is MH = 900*.9*.66*.0024 = 1.28 DPS, total contribution 7.22 DPS.... anyone want to carry this the rest of the way and convert that to AP?)

BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill.
#1819SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1820SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.
I'm not so sure I agree with this anymore.

Using Disquette's Totem Twisting bar, I've started using WF totem but waiting to GoA until right after the first WF refresh. Over the long run it gives less GoA but it gives a 10s window for shaman to dps and refresh shocks/SS etc. More importantly, it gives more chances for WF crits, which cause significantly more damage than shocks. Since one MH WF crit does more damage than a shock, I can stop and start auto attacking to try and get the MH to proc WF.

I don't have any fancy graphics, but my pattern goes something like this:
0s Flame shock (on approach)
1.5s WF totem (on approach)
(get in melee range)
3.0s Storm Strike
4.5s Wait for WFT refresh
5.0s GoA
6.5s Earthshock
(turn off/on auto attack to proc MH WF)
12s Flame shock
13.5s Storm Strike
15s WF totem

Then rinse, lather, repeat. Sometimes I wait for a second or two so the first SS is inside the GoA time.

Long story short, my DPS skyrocketed. It takes a retarded amount of keybinds and practicing to get it working, but the results are well worth it. Is anyone else doing something like this?
#1821SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
@Tshonka
5) You can always have a resto shaman drop WF in the MT's group, that is a fairly large increase in threat for him.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.
Axe/dagger if you're orc, mace/mace or mace/dagger if you're anything else.
#1822SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3evale
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.


Also, you should at least put a little bit of thought into sta/int/mp5.
Sta: can't do dmg if you're dead can you?
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
#1823SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by evale View Post
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
So drop TA or twist WF+TA while you're Shamanistic Raging on aggro-touchy encounters. (Or get your tank lessons/a better ping/WF totem.) MP5 is WAY over-budget for the amount of extra potential damage it gives us. Blizzard needs to take the MP5 off our T6 so I can wear mail as my end-game set; right now it looks like it will be mostly leather.
#1824SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3washe
Originally Posted by drc View Post
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

Well first post here, and damn lots of good info here, I will start to regear my shaman with some leather, altought Rogues will hate me a bit more for stealing his stuff.

Question are you getting double mongoose proc using those cleavers?

I read somewhere and I can be uniformed tought that Mongoose went into cooldown if the weapons had the same name, basically you wouldn't be able to have Mongoose x 2.... asking because Im working on the second merciless weapon.

What options I have for Helms?, looks like the best helm its the one that drops from Doomwalker, but he its out of my hands for the moment due that we dont have enough raid force atm to do 25 mans.

Also Im gemming the Midnight Legguards today and switching my desolation legs, Im aware I will lose like 30 hit, lowering my current 183 I got... I understand that at the moment I don't need that high hit number until later on.

Thanks for sharing all the info guys!
#1825SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by evale View Post
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.
.
Isn't this the same misconstructed logic that has been repeatedly squashed down before?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1826SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khatib
This may be another question that's been raised... I tried search and didn't spot it though... sorry if it's a repeat.


As a shaman who's working on getting DW weapons and is below the TK/Hyjal weapons...

Would say a Malchazeen OH with one of the other weapon buffs, FT or RB, be better than one of the heroic blues with WF for dps? I know it would be horrible with WF cause it would steal your MH procs, but what about without WF? Would the +20 dps on the weapon make up for the difference between WF and FT output?
#1827SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Straight off the first post of the thread, with bolded emphasis:
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit again after a WF cooldown and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)
#1828SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by evale View Post
explain to me how not having + hit is supposed to allow you to hit the mob.
Even with 0 +hit, you still hit the mob. You won't miss 100% of the time. Having more AP / Crit early on will make up for more damage even if you miss a bit more. Good rule of thumb is don't go out of your way for +hit, it'll come on the gear as your progress and gear normally..
#1829SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khatib
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Straight off the first post of the thread, with bolded emphasis:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I read that to only concern WF on both hands, not a non-WF buff on the offhand... and I didn't see numbers saying just how much of a difference there is between the buffs, so I was just thinking perhaps the weapon DPS itself could overcome that gap.

I see the equations on WF damage... if you have the numbers for FT dps, I'd be glad to do my own math and compare I just didn't see those listed at all.
#1830SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Squidfury
It seems to me that +hit beyond ~5% or so ( from gear, 8% with natures guidance) only affects your DPS by the same ratio of your dps that comes from white damage. So if your white damage is 50% of your DPS, you only get 50% of the benefit from +hit once you are no longer missing with yellow attacks ( WF and SS).

While it is true to some degree that +hit will cause more WF procs, the 3 sec cooldown mitigates that benefit greatly. It seems rare, with only 84 hit, that WF does not proc almost immediately after the cooldown is up, assuming you save SS for when WF is on cooldown.
#1831SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Isn't this the same misconstructed logic that has been repeatedly squashed down before?
No, it's innovation at it's finest. I'm amazed that nobody ever brought up this argument before, I really am. You have to hit a mob to proc WF, of course.

As far as the flametongue thing, it's inferior. Your mainhand will almost never use WF every time possible and your OH randomly picking up the CD outdps's flametongue. I use flametongue on one thing and that's Hyjal waves with necros simply due to the fact that I'm hovering around .3 attack speed with both weapons.
#1832SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Khatib View Post
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I read that to only concern WF on both hands, not a non-WF buff on the offhand... and I didn't see numbers saying just how much of a difference there is between the buffs, so I was just thinking perhaps the weapon DPS itself could overcome that gap.

I see the equations on WF damage... if you have the numbers for FT dps, I'd be glad to do my own math and compare I just didn't see those listed at all.
After 2.3 it has been calculated, elsewhere in the thread, to be comparable to Windfury, given passive haste, but not superior. I think that the main advantage of the 2.3 patch will be filling in "gear gaps". Prime example: There are no Enh usable off-hand upgrades from heroics->halfway through TK, and none in SSC. I've been using my lightning-squid off-hand for...man, a long freaking time.

The weapon DPS has no hope of overcomming that gap. You are, just like I did, underestimating the advantage of even a single extra hit, let alone two extra hits. As your gear level increases, Windfury becomes so much more powerful than any other option because it gains a direct benefit from all of the stats you are focusing on, while (currently) FT/FB are getting no benefit.

To put it simply, until 2.3, the only viable option for Enh DPS is slow/slow, WF/WF.
#1833SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nabbig
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
#1834SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Illidan dropped that 110 dps 1.9 speed dagger last night and no one in the entire raid wanted it. Daggers are currently busted for every class, not just enhance shaman.
#1835SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Nabbig View Post
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
#1836SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Althir
Originally Posted by Nabbig View Post
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
After the glancing blow changes, "crit cap" is functionally a non issue. It takes enormous amounts of crit to be "capped" (with no +hit at all, you would still not be capped at 40% crit chance). Now, if you attack from the front of the mob in addition to having no +hit, you may experience a crit cap. But why would you do such a thing?
#1837SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
No, crit% is part of the attack table, which contains hit, crit, miss, dodge, and parry. So if you have 30% crit then 30% of your attacks will crit even with 0 hit rating.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
#1838SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
Just to add in some number for the sake of being direct and concret the 'crit cap' for any dual wielding class on white damage will be aproximatly 49.5% against a boss level mob assuming attacks from the back. The number goes up when you add hit rating via talents, weapon skill, and hit rating on gear and caps out at aproximatly 75% at which point adding any of the above does nothing.

On yellow attacks the crit cap starts at 91.36% when attack from behind and also goes up when adding hit rating via talents, weapon skill, and hit rating capping out at 100%.

A 50% crit rate is theoretically possible given buffs, gear, and talents but I'm not even sure it's possible to stack that much crit without picking up at least a little hit somewhere just on accident. As far as I know the crit cap was only ever an issue for white damage before the change to the frequency of glancing blows raised the number of white attacks eligable for crit. It has never been an issue for yellow attacks outside of exceedingly rare buffing situations.
#1839SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Althir
Originally Posted by drats View Post
No, crit% is part of the attack table, which contains hit, crit, miss, dodge, and parry. So if you have 30% crit then 30% of your attacks will crit even with 0 hit rating.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
This is not exactly correct. Crit chance will not push the mob's avoidance off the attack table. So if you have 30% crit, and by some means the mob has 75% avoidance, you will crit with 25% (all) of your successful attacks, while 5% of your crit is "wasted" (This is what crit cap means).
#1840SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
So has anyone crunched the numbers fully for Slow/Fast WF/FT vs. Slow/Slow WF/WF in 2.3?

Is there a break point where one will be better than the other?

I was also looking into seeing if it was possible to get call of flame in 2.3 and keep nature's guidance. Would that be a better DPS increase than just sticking more points into enh?

7/41/13 or something.
#1841SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Why HR isn't the bees knees for Shamans:

An Enh/Resto shaman starts out with a lower miss chance than any other class, 2% with one weapon and 15% with two weapons.

For white damage, 1% hit roughly equals 1% crit in terms of dps, but only crits can proc flurry/u. rage, which adds weight to crit.

Much of an Enh shaman's damage comes from WF and SS, which have a lower miss chance and thus won't benefit much from +hit. These will benefit greatly from +crit.

Why HR is actually kind of nice:

No buffs will increase your HR; there are a number of buffs for crit chance.

Pretty cheap: only takes 15.8 HR for 1% hit, versus 22.1 CR for 1% crit

Fights that have a DW shaman moving in and out of melee often put a greater stress on each hit and thus benefit more from + hit (a theory of mine, slap me with a clue stick if it's wrong).

How to tell if you have too much crit and need more hit:

Get the mod Recount.
Look at the pie chart for melee damage.
If you see a ton of misses, and a ton of crits, but no hits, up your HR.

Keep in mind: this will never happen.
#1842SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Why HR isn't the bees knees for Shamans:

An Enh/Resto shaman starts out with after talents has a lower miss chance than any other class, 2% with one weapon and 15% with two weapons.
Just to alleviate confusion.
#1843SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
rava
Originally Posted by Morninglory View Post
So has anyone crunched the numbers fully for Slow/Fast WF/FT vs. Slow/Slow WF/WF in 2.3?

Is there a break point where one will be better than the other?

I was also looking into seeing if it was possible to get call of flame in 2.3 and keep nature's guidance. Would that be a better DPS increase than just sticking more points into enh?

7/41/13 or something.
The math has been done. The question has been asked 2 times per page since the math has been done, just search and read back- 8 posts above yours someone replied with this same response. I'm really amazed at how many times the same exact questions are asked.

Here, I found them:

http://elitistjerks.com/440275-post1058.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440939-post1095.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440974-post1101.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440998-post1107.html

I have no idea what you expect to gain from call of flame, it increases fire totem damage.

Last edited by rava : 08/24/07 at 4:45 PM.
#1844SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Althir
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Fights that have a DW shaman moving in and out of melee often put a greater stress on each hit and thus benefit more from + hit (a theory of mine, slap me with a clue stick if it's wrong).

This isn't really an issue. Your chance to hit/crit/miss whatever-and-etc are not altered by whether or not you're standing in place or running in and out of range. While moving may alter the size of the data set, this isn't an issue. The size of the data set is only relevant when you're using it to support claims, not vice-versa. You already have your statistics in place and can use them to predict results (i.e. 27.15% chance to crit is known before hand, not something you must determine through a data set).

FYI: Law of large numbers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Althir : 08/24/07 at 4:39 PM.
#1845SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Morninglory
Apologies on that.

But in regards to call of flame - I looked at talents again and it's sort of impossible to get this without sacrificing hit% somewhere else. I crunched the numbers anyway, since I had time to do so.

Despite the minimal dps gain, I still use searing totem in raids since there is nothing better to do with your fire totems. With 2.3 changes, we might see some decent dps gains with call of flame.

2800 raid buffed ap = 840 spell damage. Searing totem recieves 8% of that, so 67.2 per strike, putting the each tick at 125.2 average. The totem gets 30 ticks per use, for a total of 3765 damage over its lifespan. A 15% boost from 3 points in call of flame will thus add damage to that, for a total of 4330, at a cost of 182 mana with both mental agility and totemic mastery. That's 23.7 dpm. This is also ignoring crits, which you could safely estimate would add 5% damage/efficiency on top of that.

Of course, you could pop trinkets/procs and get your AP much higher before dropping, in which case the totem would be even more powerful/efficient.

EDIT: I also neglected to add bonus damage from CoE, Scorch, and Misery. I went ahead and factored crit and resists in too for a dmg output of 4633.

Anyway, talents make this possible only if you disregard hit somewhere else, so I guess it's moot.

But are many of you considering taking imp lightning shield in 2.3?

Last edited by Morninglory : 08/24/07 at 4:45 PM.
#1846SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by berg View Post
Illidan dropped that 110 dps 1.9 speed dagger last night and no one in the entire raid wanted it. Daggers are currently busted for every class, not just enhance shaman.
Eh, to be fair, that dagger has a horrible proc taking up a lot of the item budget, imo. If you had the same item, but with the stats of *any* of the top 10 dps daggers below it, it would be a great weapon.

I'll echo one of the comments in wowhead - The worst proc since Perdition's Blade
#1847SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
IMO, no spell shield is all that great in a raid. I get hit too rarely for water shield to generate much mana, and when I do I certainly don't want the extra threat caused by lightning shield!

Gone are the days when lightning shield was my DPM favorite; these days, I only light it up for PvP. Imp. LS, even with the new lighnin' reflexes, is just points better wasted on Anticipation. Who doesn't want a 3% chance to not get one-shotted for stupidly drawing aggro?
#1848SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill.
Yup i did mentioned too before about weapon skill in my previous post. I believe DW shaman should be having the same attack table from weapon skill compare to rogue/warriors. And having the first 5 weapon skill point would boost your dps on boss mob by at least 2-3%, consider if the theory is correct. And so far beside orc, the rest of the shaman are all sitting at 350 weapon skills, while this belt is a one goal solution to push your weapon skill above 355 without sacrificing too much on other stats.

For the lazy one who don't bother to read the other thread on weapon skills, it is believe that lvl73 mob have a 9%/28% miss chance if you are having 350 weapon skills, which would gives your hit cap at 300 after talent, and a hit cap of 253 if 355 weapon skills.

These are pure deduction at the moment. I haven't got a chance to get hold of this belt. But if you do, i would like to see some interesting result from WWS parse if possible.
#1849SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
IMO, no spell shield is all that great in a raid. I get hit too rarely for water shield to generate much mana, and when I do I certainly don't want the extra threat caused by lightning shield!

Gone are the days when lightning shield was my DPM favorite; these days, I only light it up for PvP. Imp. LS, even with the new lighnin' reflexes, is just points better wasted on Anticipation. Who doesn't want a 3% chance to not get one-shotted for stupidly drawing aggro?
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
#1850SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Most aoe will consumes your shield, esp when you are force to take that damage sometimes. e.g. Gruul's cave in DOES proc your shields so i had to agree that it's a waste not to refresh your shield.

However there are certain attack that doesn't proc your shield at all e.g. Void reavers's pounding. So i'm not sure how does blizz actually decide which attack will procs the shield.
#1926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Rob, I believe the oft quoted 36% is a remnant of having 2 weapons with a 20% chance, minus the chances lost due to cooldown. I seriously doubt that a different test number is used when dual wielding.
Nope, a different test number is used when dual wielding AND both weapons are enchanted with the same rank of Windfury, according to Disquette and other testers. Any eligible swing outside of CD has a 36% chance to proc WF which leads to an overall proc rate of ~17-18% with appropriately slow weapons.
You seem to misunderstand the hit table a bit, too. There is a single roll per attack and it is compared to a table of all possible outcomes. Crit is merely a special case of hit on this table.
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).

Last edited by Rob : 08/27/07 at 8:05 PM. Reason: clarity
#1927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).
Pretty sure I've seen a WF crit partially blocked, so that makes it a 2roll system. Stormstrike hmmm.. as far as I can recall, either the first hit misses/dodge/parry, or else both hit and I've never seen any partial mitigation on it, which makes it a rather unique mechanic, since it appears to have a single attack table-like decision for if it hits, then the 2 hits that result from that single attack table roll both have a chance to crit independantly (a second roll each?) and yet appears unable to be partially blocked on a crit (I may be wrong on that, but can't recall ever seeing it happen)
#1928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Assumption so far has been that SS works like Mutilate since it's basically the same mechanic albeit with different bonuses. I'm not a rogue so I don't know if Mutilate has the same "one miss roll" mechanic, but I think it does, and this seems like a fairly safe assumption, so really I'm only interested in WF insofar as I saw people questioning whether or not WF was a two-roll attack.
#1929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I just checked a random WWS parse (including trash for a 4 hr raid) and while I have a number of WF attacks "partially blocked" I had zero Stormstrikes partially blocked.
Here's the parse I looked at. 17 WF partial blocks, no SS blocks.
#1930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
First time poster here

Great information. I have learned more than I could imagine about an Enhancement Shaman through this thread.

I did notice the little graph of the MH 2.6 OH 1.5 and how it affected windfury. I found myself in a bind when I was reading up on the Syphon of Nathrezim and could not find any information on shamans that wielded a Dragonstrike in their MH with this in their OH. For those that wonder how the 2.8 OH affects windfury, I made this little graph up comparing the MH2.7/OH2.8 and the MH2.7/OH2.6 set-ups. This is based on which weapon will hit the mob first after the 3 second windfury cooldown. Also note this is scaled down to 1 second.

Edit: Graph down due to major flaw don't listen to me yet!

I'm fairly sure I got everything right. Please correct/criticize me on this!

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 11:43 AM.
#1931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
#1932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Timmervargen
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.

Edit: Same thing in the 2.7/2.8 one, First hit comes after a full swing timer. It should start with the first swings at 0 seconds.
#1933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Timmervargen View Post
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.
True. But I modeled my graph off the 2.6/1.5 graph in the first post. He started the WF cooldown on the 1.5 second strike.
#1934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Probably my fault. The graph I made wasn't necessarily to illustrate from the beginning of combat, just showing how the cycle ends up. I can fix that later I suppose.
#1935SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
This is based on theory if windfury were to proc after every 3 second cooldown. Truthfully what is shows is what weapon would strike next after the 3 second cooldown is up.
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 3:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#2076SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
I don't remember it being covered before. What I use is a really simple spreadsheet which I've uploaded:

OpenOffice: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.ods
Excel: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.xls

Pretty much just fill in the gray boxes across the top with the stats you want to use then run each step through the sim and record the results in the gray column on the right. It doesn't spit out a properly formatted pawn string and it might have errors but it seems to work. A couple notes, it has the new value for haste, and it doesn't actually calculate the change in mitigation dynamically so the armor stuff is only accurate if you start at 30%. Also, if you don't use any passive haste you'll probably want to ignore it in there.
#2077SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by ewichern View Post
I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
Based on the apparent value of weapon skill (first 5 points = 2-3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-dodge/anti-parry) and the availability of Mace/Axe skill (Mace found on at least one belt right now, Axe on nothing unless you've got the Orc racial), I'd have to say you should go for the mace. (The other advantage here is you can craft a Skillherald for PvP.)
#2078SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oldmandennis
Originally Posted by Freyj View Post
What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC?
READ THE MOTHER FUCKING FIRST POST, THE SAME DAMN ANSWER ITS BEEN THE LAST 40 TIMES THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED
#2079SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
...

I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats?
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#2080SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
#2081SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
When are people going to stop claiming this.

No. That's not how the hit table works. Go to WoWwiki and search for Attack Table. Come back when you've educated yourself on it.
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
#2082SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Wowzers
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
Don't worry about a set amount of hit you need to have. The best thing to do is to start upgrading to items that give you more AP/crit. These items will also usually have hit rating on them. That alone will be enough.
#2083SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
If I'm not mistaken (I could be, still trying to sober up) this was talked about a few pages back, or something similar to it. Even with weapons of the same attack speed, your main hand is going to swing first. The numbers will pop up one right after the other, but your main hand will hit first. Thats if you are running up to the mob, getting inside melee range and then hitting attack.

If I'm wrong someone please correct me.
#2084SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
#2085SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
I've never tested it, but I'd guess that the dps increase would be:

40dmg/weap * 1.5 (dual weilding) * 1.30 (crit) * .94 (dodge) = 73.32 dmg/10sec
= 7.3 dps

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2086SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
It's an extra 30 damage per weapon, isn't it? Also, I don't think the offhand reduction applies to the bonus damage.
#2087SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I can't test because I don't have the gear. If anyone could do so, that'd be nice. Grab 2 1.2 or 0.9 dps weapons, and it should be easy to see exactly how it works.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2088SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.
I was (am) the one trying to do that. The good news so far is that the sort of lin-log model necessary to create such a function has shown some great promise, with the r2 (or variability in dps explained by the model) above .9 (or 90%). The bad news is that so far the sample size has been kind of restricted and just barely enough to give satisfactory degrees of freedom, which means that I am still far from creating something "representative" enough for distribution (and, given time constraints, will not be able to do so in the near future).
#2089SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
#2090SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Giske View Post
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
Is he attacking from behind?

Is it in Hyjal and he isnt being decursed?

Can you submit a WWS parse to look at?
#2091SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
He is attacking from behind (standing next to rogues), its consistent in every instance.

I'll post some of our recent WWS:

Kael'thas, Vashj, Rage, Anetheron
Full TK clear
Full SSC clear

And yes, we suck at SSC.
#2092SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cesar2000
Everything seems right... over the full SSC parse he's got 6% miss, 5% dodge, and 1% parry.

With 18% hit and a 24% cap, 6% miss is spot on. 5% dodge is of course also what it should be.
#2093SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Mano
hmm, I'm not totally sure how WWS works in this regard.

But I see he dropped some searing/magma/fire elemental/fire nova totems but there's no damage recorded for them.
IIRC I've recently seen SCT/SCTD float the searing totem's damage as "attack", which might lead to WWS parsing this damage as normal melee damage. But as it is spell damage it would probably suffer from the normal spell hit penalty against higher level targets, which might explain the miss rate.

Edit: or not (see next post).

Last edited by Mano : 09/03/07 at 11:20 AM.
#2094SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Its not really feasible to record damage from those since there are several shamans in the raid, the values would be all wrong.

And omg, I cant believe I didnt notice that WWS sums up miss, dodge and parry into one %. I feel really stupid now. ><

Sorry for the idiot question.
#2095SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cownoris
Has any analysis been done of the new WF totem mechanic?

Now that it can only proc on white attacks or special attacks that use your normal attack (e.g. heroic strike) how does it compare to Agi totem?

If anyone has solid numbers of how much dps it provides to different classes/specs I'd appreciate it.
#2096SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ vank
You do not have to read but a few pages back to find the answers you seek.
#2097SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mr Tazza
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
#2098SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza View Post
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
Post a WWS to see if your paladin was keeping JoW up full time. Another thought is to wear a piece or two of shadow resist, I just wear the BT neck and I sometimes resist up to 3 mana burns a fight.
#2099SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I wear a couple pieces of SR gear. Using the Super Mana Potion after the first unresisted mark is correct, but I wouldn't use SR until you've taken two more unresisted marks after the first. SR is a full mana bar for me, easily, and using it when you're down only 3000-4000 mana is a waste.

Lastly, make sure you're using Mana Shield and getting JoW.
#2100SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Patrik
I'm wearing few sr items (even ±120sr makes this fight quite a different experience) and I personally am using fel mana potions, which work just great.

Last edited by Patrik : 09/04/07 at 2:47 AM.
#2126SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
After the haste nerf it'll be worth 15.76 per, so thats 78.8 * 1.48 = 116.6 AEP which makes it better than T6.
Yeah, but how much better is T6 in terms of other stat increases as compared to T5? You also need to multiply by the level of Flurry uptime (unless you have 100%, you won't be hasted 5% more constantly). You also need to take into account the improved AP, hit, and crit that T6 gives over T5.

However, realistically, in this case, your numbers are going to be so different with each set, that I would start to question how effective an AEP calculation would be for you. I'd probably try running Tornhoof's sim on the two sets and seeing what DPS each gets you (assuming his sim can account for 4-piece T5 and 4-piece T6).

Overall, though, I think this is a moot question... who is honestly going to collect 4-piece T5 or 4-piece T6 with all the great off-set loot? You can certainly build a set that's 100 AEP better than T6 by including some offset items so the bonus is not worth it to me. Until Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and put armor ignore like Rogues and Warriors instead of MP5, anyway; it's no coincidence that the only really good piece of T6 is the gloves which have no MP5. And for that matter, what's up with the horrible 2-piece set bonus and no red sockets?

Compare to rogues:
(2) Set: Increases the haste from your Slice and Dice ability by 5%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%.
Druids:
(2) Set: Reduces the energy cost of your Mangle ability in Cat Form by 5 and increases the threat generated by your Mangle ability in Bear Form by 15%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Rip, Swipe, and Ferocious Bite abilities by 15%.

OK, now I'm getting a little bit too high on the podium/QQ train. Sorry.

Last edited by Rob : 09/04/07 at 3:28 PM.
#2127SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
After the haste nerf it'll be worth 15.76 per, so thats 78.8 * 1.48 = 116.6 AEP which makes it better than T6.
Except not really. Look at Stigmata's WWS, with ~30% unbuffed crit(not sure what neck he uses) + lotp flurry was reapplied nine times, meaning that he had at least 9 hits without flurry. 9/85 = 10.6% downtime with 35 crit. The value with his gear would be at best around 104, but quite lower for well, anyone using t5.
#2128SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
I'm thick headed today, instead of 10.5 haste rating = 1%, they are upping it to 15.76 haste rating = 1%, correct?
You can use either the PTR value of 15.76 haste = 1% and the value of 1.48 AEP, or the live value of 10.5 haste = 1% and the value of 2.22 AEP.
#2129SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
You can use either the PTR value of 15.76 haste = 1% and the value of 1.48 AEP, or the live value of 10.5 haste = 1% and the value of 2.22 AEP.
Thank you so much. I looked past the 15.76rating = 1% in this thread. Updated my spreadsheet. ^_^
#2130SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
Yeah the current T6 set bonuses are very very weak, and the set is kinda crappy itemised in terms of stats/sockets.

Noticed the resto t6 set has been changed today on PTR so hopefully maybe enhance one will too.

Out of interest, what are the "better" non set people are using then because personally I think the mail with haste on is very crappy and seriously hunter itemised (agility + AP), which leaves leather and bah rogues cry :/
#2131SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Rob
Your rogues shouldn't cry, considering they are getting your WF totem and/or GoA, UR and SoE. Cursed Vision of Sargeras (rogue), Shoulders of the Hidden Predator (hunter), Midnight Chestguard (rogue), and Bow-Stitched Leggings (hunter) would be the choices I'd replace 4/5 of T6 with:
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I haven't done the math on the haste items post-PTR (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa) but it's possible that they are better than the above.
There are also the armor ignore items to consider, jury is still out on this mathematically so I'm not sure where to place them in the grand scheme of things.

If they are genuinely upset, gently remind them that they have well-itemized T6 and we don't.

Last edited by Rob : 09/04/07 at 3:59 PM.
#2132SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Your rogues shouldn't cry, considering they are getting your WF totem and/or GoA, UR and SoE. Cursed Vision of Sargeras (rogue), Shoulders of the Hidden Predator (hunter), Midnight Chestguard (rogue), and Bow-Stitched Leggings (hunter) would be the choices I'd replace 4/5 of T6 with:
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I haven't done the math on the haste items post-PTR (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa) but it's possible that they are better than the above.
There are also the armor ignore items to consider, jury is still out on this mathematically so I'm not sure where to place them in the grand scheme of things.

If they are genuinely upset, gently remind them that they have well-itemized T6 and we don't.
The only haste item that remains competitive are the gloves, which come out about even with T6 after the change. The rest come out behind bt/hyjal alternatives, some even behind ssc/tk alternatives.

I think we can make a pretty educated guess on the value of armor penetration and doing so shows the ring to be a great item, the pants and the neck though are inferior to alternative items.
#2133SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Looking at the Tiered gear, it's fairly obvious to me that Blizz did not expect the Shaman class to be played the way most of us are playing it. They see us as standing up front with our totems, doing some decent damage but taking time out to splash the raid. In short, they think we're using more spells and thus need more mp5, free healing waves, etc.

And I'd wager most enhancers are playing that way (the ones who haven't read this thread, anyway). That used to be my play style -- prior to BC & DW, I used to be about even between Enh and Resto. My damage was minuscule, but measured in terms of Damage Given + Damage Taken + Healing Done I was highly effective.

Of course, now fights have gotten so technical and wipes so easy to trigger that being a hybrid isn't as important as being able to effectively play your role. And being able to give Rogues a run for their money while tying together a highly effective melee group is a lot of fun. I think Bliz could stand to go to school with a really great enh. shaman and learn that hey, MP5 is great but we could use some more STR, and an instant cast heal is lovely but we'd prefer a threat reduction proc that didn't reset the swing timer.

I'll say this, though: if I were looking for a new guild, I know it'd be easier to find one in full Cyclone than in my current set, even if I'd put out more damage as a Shamrogue.
#2134SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TradewindKlaatubarada
Definitely random agil pieces are better than T6. Too bad there are no equivalent gear with STR instead of so much AGI.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/04/07 at 5:43 PM.
#2135SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
So, question. Has anyone come up with a definite answer for whether the Wicked Edge of the Planes is better then the Dragonstrike after the coming patch? I posted my little test, just wondering if anyone has been able to learn anything else.
#2136SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
So, question. Has anyone come up with a definite answer for whether the Wicked Edge of the Planes is better then the Dragonstrike after the coming patch?
Wether it's one or the other that end up being the better of the 2, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be worth switching Blacksmithing speciality. That's also probably the underlying question: is one so much better than the other that it's worth switching? My guestimate says no.
#2137SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Well I already have Blacksmithing, Im currently using the Dragonstrike. Im just wondering if I should even bother switching to Axesmith to get the Axe or just grab something like Talon of the Phoenix after its buff until I can get Syphon. As it stands right now, Im just going to grab a Talon and not bother with Axesmith.
#2138SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
i have the axe now and after reading that the mace is so much better, i wanted to switch. but given that i'm an orc, i will just stick to my axe and save my time and gold.
and i would guess that it's rather hard to get ingame testing results. on the other hand, i did not even take a look into one of the sims (mainly because i can't get them to work), maybe you can compare the weapons there.
#2139SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I think we can make a pretty educated guess on the value of armor penetration and doing so shows the ring to be a great item, the pants and the neck though are inferior to alternative items.
Where would you place the armor penetration neck in comparison to, say, the heroic badge neck? I ask because I have both and they're my only two options at the moment. I'm pretty low on hit, even as far as shamans are concerned (70 hit rating), so I have been thinking of equipping the heroic badge neck in its place.
#2140SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Where would you place the armor penetration neck in comparison to, say, the heroic badge neck? I ask because I have both and they're my only two options at the moment. I'm pretty low on hit, even as far as shamans are concerned (70 hit rating), so I have been thinking of equipping the heroic badge neck in its place.
The trash neck is better than the badge one, even with low hit. The only one that's really better is the one off Supremus since it spends all of its budget on dps stats at the expense of stam.
#2141SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Boratz
I have a question, which is probably more directed at Sebudai than anyone else, but I'd still appreciate anyone's thoughts.

I have been taking a look at Juggernauts WWS logs, and tended to notice that your (Sebudai's) dps in general with the raid group has increased as your guild has progressed. I have also assumed that with progression comes an improvement in your gear. I find myself in similar spots on the damage meters as you were back when you were clearing SSC/TK (around 5th on Void Reaver for eg, but lower down on average probably around 8-10th) and now you're in a position where you are frequently towards the top end (top 5 usually).

My question is, do you agree with how I have interpreted this information - do you feel that your dps has also increased over time with an improvement in gear? Do other informed readers of this thread also feel that perhaps Enhancement Shaman dps increases over time because the gear scales more favourably at end game than other classes?

Put another way, do people think (as I do) that the gear increases from drops in BT and Hyjal increase an Enhancement Shamans dps more than 'equivalent' gear for a lock, or hunter does?

My guild has a spot for only 1 Enhancement shaman unfortunately, and there are two of us. So I find myself in a position where accruing DKP is quite difficult and as such I'm always last to get any kind of item, be it cross class or class specific. So I feel that I'm always lagging behind and struggling to catch up as a result. This also lends itself to people in my guild not necessarily believing that Enhancement Shaman dps is viable, considering my spots on the meters at present. My armory link should work if anyone would like to have a look (Bloodlust brooch incoming within a week or two).

We have cleared Vashj and are about to put in attempts on Kael, so my hope is that when we are all in Hyjal/BT I'll see a more favourable increase in my dps as I acquire gear from those instances.

Would Sebudai or anyone else care to share their thoughts on this matter?

Edit: Grammar.

Last edited by Boratz : 09/05/07 at 1:49 AM.
#2142SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
I would say yes, at ssc gear level you might see a bit of drop in dps meters relative position that should even up in MH/BT, since you will be not aiming for T6 for a while and mail dps loot should go for you without much of a struggle.

Also, switch your relic asap! Put the most effort into manatombs, that should help with your bloodlust brooch at the same time. And why not use karazhan rep ring? Your just a bit too low on +hit. And if your are still experiencing low relative pos in dps meters, make sure that you get salve > bom > kings on you, warrior with battleshout and if possible a feral druid to the same group.
#2143SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
And why not use karazhan rep ring? Your just a bit too low on +hit.
His hit rating is fine (look at Sebudai's), but he needs to ditch his chest, gloves, and belt in favor of gear without MP5, because his AP is suffering. (Hint: GO LEATHER.) The Bladefist's Breadth also really needs upgrading, at least a Bloodlust Brooch is easily attainable.

I would definitely say we scale better with gear from Kara->SSC->TK->BT than locks and mages, for a few reasons: 1) they start out with FSW or Spellfire which is comparable to T5 for the most common builds (affliction lock, fire mage); 2) there are more melee unfriendly encounters in SSC/TK and more magic unfriendly encounters in BT; 3) our class innately scales fairly well. Compared to hunters, warriors, and rogues I'm not so sure that we really scale better, though. Currently, nobody's scaling better than rogues -- though the haste nerf may mitigate this somewhat or entirely.

Last edited by Rob : 09/05/07 at 3:50 AM.
#2144SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Boratz, in a way, you've got the opposite problem from me: you have plenty of stamina and could stand some higher dps! I doubt you're ever out of mana, so do replace that totem with something more useful...and don't aim for hit, or crit, or AP. Just fire up lootzor, plug in the AEP values, compare your gear with available upgrades, and go after the biggest upgrade first. If you aim to increase any stat by itself you'll invariably miss out on some of the secret treasures, such as the Fel Leather Leggings (which, believe it or not, are ever so slightly an upgrade for you, albeit at a loss of 52 stamina and a ton of int).

And remember: one of the reasons we're called enhancement shamans is we enhance our entire group. It may be tough to compete with other dpsers but if they're only beating you by 10% or so, remind them that this is 10% they wouldn't have had if you weren't grouping with them. Not to mention the benefits from SoE, Windfury, Grace of Air, etc...
#2145SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
I don't know if we scale with gear better than other classes. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that we don't. I don't really know though.

I think when I was working through Gruul's Lair/SSC/TK my gear was of a slightly worse quality than the gear our other dps classes were using at the time. The enhancement theorycrafting was really just getting started, so for the most part I was winging it. I thought hit rating was the best stat, I was using fast weapons etc. Nowadays the quality of my gear has caught up and thanks to threads like this I have a much better idea about what I should be doing.

Looking at your armory the most obvious upgrades are your relic, trinket, and a few enchants. Cyclone Shoulderplates are worth an exalted enchant once you can get that, +6 stats on your chest is better than +150 hitpoints, Cataclysm Legplates are good enough for an epic enchant, and you're using the agi/crit damage meta gem so you could really use some form of runspeed on your boots. You're also an enchanter so you can enchant your rings, right?
#2146SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Put the most effort into manatombs...
I really dislike the first boss in Heroic Mana Tombs. I have run 37, quick 20 minute runs into that place trying to get the totem off him, and nothing. Very annoying.
#2147SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I don't know if we scale with gear better than other classes. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that we don't. I don't really know though.

I think when I was working through Gruul's Lair/SSC/TK my gear was of a slightly worse quality than the gear our other dps classes were using at the time. The enhancement theorycrafting was really just getting started, so for the most part I was winging it. I thought hit rating was the best stat, I was using fast weapons etc. Nowadays the quality of my gear has caught up and thanks to threads like this I have a much better idea about what I should be doing.
I agree pretty much with everything here, we dont scale any better than anyone else, I think the main reason why I have cemented a permanent place in the top 5 is simply down the raid designs, hyjal is incredibly melee friendly, Najentus, Akama, Teron, RoS and Shahraz are all very good for melee.

With regard to T6 vs random pieces discussion, the drop rates on many of the random pieces sucks in comparison, of the items available, we have had no cursed vision, 1 bow stitched (went to a hunter) midnight chestguards we are going to be disenchanting because everyone has them and our rogues all want T6, mantle of darness - none.

We are gaurenteed to get T6 everyweek and difference is not massive so ignoring the items and waiting is counterproductive to the guild.

I think we had 2 healing paladins take Ret items this week because no one else needed the T6 as a main piece. I suppose that is the benefit of having a raiding team of less than 35 people.
#2148SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Boratz
Firstly thanks very much all for all the info, it confirmed everything I suspected. I've been quite unlucky with the relic, trying very hard to get it. I am getting a bloodlust brooch as soon as possible as well, had to use badges to buy nethers to upgrade my t1 mace --> t2, so I had none left after that.

My plan is to get the chest from either Hydross or from Karathress, to be honest which ever drops first. Get the belt of the deep shadow crafted, which should happen fairly soon as well. I was hanging onto the gloves for the 2 piece bonus of t4, extra AP from the improved SOE totem though. My gems also need some tweaking, but I can't do that until I get a chest with sockets, otherwise I lose my meta gem bonus.

Sebudai thanks for the tips. Again these were things I suspected. I'm almost there with consortium rep to enchant my rings, so that'll be wonderful when it comes. As for +6 stats to chest, I am waiting for a new chest before putting that on there, which should be in a week or two. Also not quite exalted yet with Scryer, chose to buy my epic mount first, that's on the priority list heh.

Also, thanks Stigmata - I had wondered if perhaps Hyjal/BT were more melee friendly and that accounted for much of why Shaman who were further towards endgame than myself were higher on the charts.

From what I can gather I'm much better sticking to random pieces/drops to make up my gear (also based of course on what I am able to get a hold of) than tier pieces as a generalisation. I know there are of course some tier pieces that are nice, but in general I have found from my position that I've very much had to make do with what I can get my hands on for the moment, and wait my turn for the things everyone wants. I quite literally only have the T5 legs, because I was the only person in raid who had yet to receieve them of all the rogues/shams/palis.

Last edited by Boratz : 09/05/07 at 8:30 AM. Reason: Grammar
#2149SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Boratz View Post
Do other informed readers of this thread also feel that perhaps Enhancement Shaman dps increases over time because the gear scales more favourably at end game than other classes?

Put another way, do people think (as I do) that the gear increases from drops in BT and Hyjal increase an Enhancement Shamans dps more than 'equivalent' gear for a lock, or hunter does?
What I think is the opposite. We scale with gear worse than other classes. Take Mother Shahraz for example, I'm always 2nd or 3rd on that fight and everybody is in bad gear because of the needed shadow resistance. On other fights (either melee friendly or not) everyone in my group does better damage than me.
#2150SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've been a bit short on time lately with some travel, are there any changes or additions to the first post necessary? Anyone care to summarize them if so, and I'll insert them in?
#2201SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
I have a little question about SS...
I know that:
if MH SS is dodged/parryed then there is no OH hit
MH and OH can crit separately

What I don' know - can OH be dodged/parryed if MH hits? (I don't remember)
In this case using Attack Table we will get a much bigger chance for OH not to hit than for MH...
Yes, I believe this has been understood for a while to be actual stormstrike behavior.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2202SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
What I noticed in Yo's source is that he multiplies the WF AP with the UR factor.
I'm not completely sure that this is correct, as far as I know, the WF AP is just a static value added to the windfury swing, always 475 AP. Back when I wrote my alpha windfury plugin I found no evidence that wf ap is increased by UR, but I never tested explicitely for this, 47.5 AP (UR gain) are obviously not that simple to verify.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2203SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Can we get a support for [Totem of the Astral Winds] as well?
#2204SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Neithan
Hello guys,

Just one question. Are BT LW haste mail pieces (bracer and shoulder) still worth getting after the coeficient change?

Edit: Just woke up, edited for clarity
#2205SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Hello guys,

Just one question. Are BT LW haste mail pieces (bracer and shoulder) still worth getting after the coeficient change?

Edit: Just woke up, edited for clarity
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator or Mantle of Darkness (and I think even the T6 shoulders) will be better after the haste nerf. Same goes to Insidious Bands, Deadly Cuffs and Wraps of Precise Flight for the wrist slot. I don't think I'll ever use haste items after 2.2
#2206SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Yo: Your AEP calculator is really good, this is what I was thinking about in one of my previous posts. You said "It is assumed that BoK is on" so when I enter stats I should sum all buffs/potions/food/etc except unleashed rage and blessing of kings, am I right?
#2207SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Wizkid
1) In my humble opinion the weapon section in the first post is still a bit lacking. There really arent that many epic options for us (less than trinkets and those are all listed) and you are only listing the 100+ DPS weapons for MTH/BT. Most players will (want to) start with a MH weapon from Kara or the BS option and try to get one of the MH upgrades from TK or even another Arena2 for the MH.

2) I recently switched from Decapitator (Mongoose) + Arena2 (Crusader) to Arena2 (Crusader) + Netherbane (Mongoose) and am wondering about two things:

First, with two different proc enchants it should not matter if they are on the MH or the OH weapon, or does it ? Maybe add the answer to the Enchanting section.

Second, with the upcoming buff to SSC/TK weapons it seems rather pointless to replace Netherbane or Talon of the Phoenix with a second Arena2 weapon ? The Lootzor link already lists the Talon as the best MH even above the 100 DPS drops from MTH/BT, which frankly irritates me a bit (yes, I noticed the proc on the Syphon). Should that be fixed or is it true ?

3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?

Last edited by Wizkid : 09/06/07 at 10:30 AM.
#2208SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wizkid View Post
1) In my humble opinion the weapon section in the first post is still a bit lacking. There really arent that many epic options for us (less than trinkets and those are all listed) and you are only listing the 100+ DPS weapons for MTH/BT. Most players will (want to) start with a MH weapon from Kara or the BS option and try to get one of the MH upgrades from TK or even another Arena2 for the MH.
Do people really need a complete list of every possible item they could ever get, the original post is a guide, not a complete instruction manual.

Originally Posted by Wizkid View Post
3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?
None.
#2209SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Ok, going to pull out interesting lines from the code as I see them...


Why a 32% chance to proc windfury on an attack instead of the tested and empirically determined 36% chance?

How is MissMH determined, and why does it have a different rate than the OH miss rate? I see you did something similar with crit. Is this for Orcs or other people who have +skill ratings who use non-similar weapon types between hands?

*** editing out my WF dmg thing - this is referred to later on, but I can see where I made a mistake in analysis ***

the following stuff I still don't get, however:



I assume you mean to have WFap/14 in the "hit" statement for the MHWf hit case.

Also, now that I think of it, is Windfury Actually hitting twice? Again, I'm pretty good at being dumb, so I hope this isn't s stupid question, but how do you have the code proc'ing 2 windfury attacks? I'm only seeing one. I'm not so familiar with the array coding, however, so maybe you take care of it somewhere in there.

I assume that when you say that adding Hit wasn't capped, the result in the sim is that you end up pushing dodge off of the table? I'm not sure how you determine MissOH and MissMH, so I can't be sure. I still don't get why having 60% Hit was better than 50% hit, but as long as you say you're fixing it, I'm happy with that.

Also, I'm not sure what's happening here:

This part in particular:
if (R1>(0.05+Dodge))
{ // landed

is the 0.05 supposed to be the default miss rate? If so, then why don't you have +hit reducing that 0.05 result off the table? I know you mentioned a two-roll system for yellow attacks, but I don't see that anywhere in here - Is this somehow related to that?

Other than those things, I don't see any glaring mistakes (either on your part in the code, or mine in understanding it). Not to say that these mistakes might not explain the huge dps gaps seen - If you're not granting the WF AP bonus to MH WF hits, and if you only have WF hitting once instead of twice, that could easily explain the 200dps delta between your and tornhoof's models. But, if these are the only problems with it...

Then this, in fact, is by far the cleanest code I've seen, and makes the step by step versions (like mine ) look really ugly in comparison. Your method of finding the minimum value of the "next event" is so much more efficient - now I'm starting to understand why your sim runs so much quicker than mine ever could as I check every x milliseconds for an event.

I'm really impressed man :-) The only thing that I haven't mentioned so far that I'd like to see, that I haven't requested yet, is more detailed reporting - how many main hand hits were there, for how much damage. How many off hand glances, etc etc. That sort of thing really helps us compare the code results against empircal or theoretical examination.
You spotted alot, thank you! The only part not being a bug is second attack from WF - it is covered by this code:

if(WF){WF=false;}
else {Time[1]=inf;}
WF is boolean variable that shows if seond attack needed

Also Miss is different for MH and OH because of weapon skill.
MissMH = 0.24 + Miss(MHskill)-Hit
now I changed it to
MissMH = Math.max(0.24 + Miss(MHskill)-Hit,0)
What I noticed in Yo's source is that he multiplies the WF AP with the UR factor.
I'm not completely sure that this is correct, as far as I know, the WF AP is just a static value added to the windfury swing, always 475 AP. Back when I wrote my alpha windfury plugin I found no evidence that wf ap is increased by UR, but I never tested explicitely for this, 47.5 AP (UR gain) are obviously not that simple to verify.
Will fix it. Thanks.

Did you miss Weapon Mastery?, I can't find any 1.1x factor to the dps
Yes I did

Can we get a support for Totem of the Astral Winds as well?
Your AEP calculator is really good, this is what I was thinking about in one of my previous posts. You said "It is assumed that BoK is on" so when I enter stats I should sum all buffs/potions/food/etc except unleashed rage and blessing of kings, am I right?
1) Totem of the Astral Winds is on by default - yet another checkbox to be able to switch it on/off is needed.
2) Sum it all up with BoK but without UR. UR is Shaman's buff with random behavior that is modelled.

I'd recommend you not require people to hand-jam BoK onto their stats, adding it as an optional buff would be great. Ideally people want to see a sim match up closely with their real world DPS so they can see that its accurate, and for people in 5mans or KZ, they're not going to BoK anyways. Hell, I don't get Kings all the time in a raid even
Basically the fact that BoK is "on" affects only AEP values of Agi and Str by flat 10% increase.
Put your stat totals buffed just as how you are going to be buffed in raid (with or without BoK) and divide AEP values for Agi and Str that it finds by 1.1.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 11:27 AM.
#2210SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Wizkid View Post
First, with two different proc enchants it should not matter if they are on the MH or the OH weapon, or does it ? Maybe add the answer to the Enchanting section.

Second, with the upcoming buff to SSC/TK weapons it seems rather pointless to replace Netherbane or Talon of the Phoenix with a second Arena2 weapon ? The Lootzor link already lists the Talon as the best MH even above the 100 DPS drops from MTH/BT, which frankly irritates me a bit (yes, I noticed the proc on the Syphon). Should that be fixed or is it true ?

3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?
1 - Doesn't matter which hand.

2 - The lootzor link for weapons is garbage, don't refer to that. I'm not sure about the Talon vs Gladiator, I ran Pater's sim using both with my gear and the Talon did *not* perform as highly as the Gladiator weapons, which was pretty disappointing to me. However, I'll probably try to pick one up next time it drops just to try the combo.

3 - Stigmata has elaborated many times in this thread that he grabs the 2H, uses the proc, and then uses his normal weapons.


@Yo - I'd recommend you not require people to hand-jam BoK onto their stats, adding it as an optional buff would be great. Ideally people want to see a sim match up closely with their real world DPS so they can see that its accurate, and for people in 5mans or KZ, they're not going to BoK anyways. Hell, I don't get Kings all the time in a raid even.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.

Last edited by Malan : 09/06/07 at 10:51 AM.
#2211SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
For what it's worth, on Kael this week I was toying around with using the dagger in the mainhand. It has approximately the same range as my arena season 2 weapon but much higher dps. The windfuries were slightly lower (1.8k to 1.9k compared to 2.1k to 2.2k) but I'm wondering if the extra dps from the fast weapon (combined with the fact you'll actually get more windfuries from the fast weapon on the maindhand) makes up for it.

I do remember the long discussion that was had back in June or so when Stigmata discussed all this, but I don't remember whether he ever tried it in the mainhand.
#2212SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo:
Did you miss Weapon Mastery?, I can't find any 1.1x factor to the dps

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2213SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I'm half wondering if it might be time to start a Volume II of this thread.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2214SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I do remember the long discussion that was had back in June or so when Stigmata discussed all this, but I don't remember whether he ever tried it in the mainhand.
I can't remember the last time I entered TK, let alone fought Kael, i certainly never picked up the dagger, so there would be no chance of me using it MH.
#2215SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tornhoof
Hmm I compared Yo's values to my most recent model and I'm a bit surprised, even after reducing some caps to his values (miss to be 24% etc.)

Stormstrike DPS is fine, even though we're using different methods for SS, I can reproduce his values (e.g. ~120 DPS for the default values)

WhiteDPS is a tad on the lower end for his model, even if I multiply the missing Weapon mastery (which I think is missing) to his value. His result is 517 DPS, mine is 628 DPS.
We're missing some 50 DPS there.
Now my white mh dps is calculated:
float mhwhitedps = 0.01f * (hitwhite + crit - glancing - dodge) * (wdps1 + ap / 14);
which is straightforward.
I'm using 25% glancing probability and 25% glancing reduction.
This whitedps is further multiplied with haste effects, common factor is 1.25 (flurry uptime around 70% here + 5% haste).
This formula is certainly correct, but 50 DPS can not be just explained by bad luck.

YellowDPS is obviously carrying those missing DPS from the whitedps over to yellow dps. I'm missing around 50 DPS there again.
Similar formula as above, again hasted:
float mhyellowdps = 0.01f * 0.01f * (hitwhite - dodge) * (hityellow + crit - dodge) * 2 * wfprocmh * 1.4f * (wdps1 + wfap / 14);
(we can only proc wf if we actually hit the target, so we need to hit with white first, than we can crit/hit with yellow )
This value is again hasted, the wfprocmh probability is corrected to cover the 3.0s cooldown:

Example: two 2.6s weapons, 5% haste, we assume the 25% overall haste effect (incl. flurry)
Each weapon swings with 2.08s now (on average), so we swing every 1.04s.
With a wf proc chance of 36% we expect our wf to proc every 2.08/0.36 = 5.777s
So even hasted we are way slower than the wf cooldown of 3.0s.

Basically I'm missing 100 DPS, 50 DPS in white and 50 DPS in yellow, probably the missing yellow dps is already accounted for by Disquette's bugsearch. So I'm pretty much still missing a fair amount of normal white DPS.

The current model in c++ is here: Pastey.net - paste bin

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/06/07 at 1:17 PM.
#2216SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2217SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Flurry is something that I can not code fully because I am not convinced on how it has to work... So far it is "haste the next x attacks".

New version of sim is released with basic FAQ and changelog.
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

Now about the difference with math expactation approach:
The main fundamental reason is that math expactation for function of some random values is not equal to function of math expactation of these values.
Example - on crit you have both UR and Flurry activated leading to all flurried attacks being made under effect of UR - something that math expactation approach is not counting as Flurry is assumed to be x uptime, UR y uptime so there is possibility when Flurried attacks are not affected by UR.
Sims potentially are more correct while formulas are very fast. For AEP calculation derivatives can be found out from formula while sims have to use brute-force approach: increase something by z, calculate dps and divide result by z afterwards and the accuracy/time depends on z choice greatly.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 2:07 PM.
#2218SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Are you accounting for Windfury procs and Stormstrike generating flurry charges but not consuming them? I am guessing that you are but this is the easiest way to get way out of whack on uptime.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#2219SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Hmm I have no idea, as far as I've seen Yo's sim has a working and correct flurry calculation.


On a side not, I'm not even considering a full stormstrike cycle in my model (no haste effect for wf currently), so it's probably even missing some more dps

As for my program, It's on hold until atleast 2.2 and probably until I port it on c++, since I'm running into serious performance issues currently.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2220SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm half wondering if it might be time to start a Volume II of this thread.
Make the next one The Enhancement Shaman Omnibus: SLOW WEAPONS WF ON BOTH
#2221SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
As for Flurry works:
- Every melee attack can proc it (e.g. white, stormstrike, wf)
- only white hits consume a charge

So you'll need to change your model to reset your flurry counter to 3 for every crit in your switch case (since every melee attack can crit and proc flurry) and only decrease the counter for a successful white melee hit.

__________________
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#2222SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
As for Flurry works:
- Every melee attack can proc it (e.g. white, stormstrike, wf)
- only white hits consume a charge

So you'll need to change your model to reset your flurry counter to 3 for every crit in your switch case (since every melee attack can crit and proc flurry) and only decrease the counter for a successful white melee hit.
It was done exactly this way from the start as can be seen in code above - whenever any attack crits Flurry = 3, and Flurry-=1 only on hasted white hits.

What I do no model is the effect of Flurry affecting more than 3 attacks sometimes for some unclear reason.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 2:32 PM.
#2223SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3MrProcrastin8
Question on if these daggers are better.

I know, I know. Daggers make us all cringe. I understand how the calculations work of how we want to have the slowest weapons possible. But I find myself in a pickle as of last night.

First of all, I'm very much so undergeared. Like, pre-Kara undergeared. Time constraints, as well as helping the girlfriend level, has hindered my ability to run the dungeons to get the good gear. However, I found some time last night to run Karazhan with my guild. They have been running it for months now, so the group I was running with had a good bit of the gear that drops there already, so I ended up getting some easy loot:

Emerald Ripper
Blade of the Unrequited

They are fast items, yes, but, damage-wise, they are arguably better than my previous two:

Reflex Blades
Mag'hari Fury Brand

My question is probably one that gets asked often... will using the daggers give me an overall dps increase? When I happen to obtain slower, higher damage items, obviously I will make the switch, but I don't know when I will be able to obtain one, and it may be a long time coming. So, until then, what do I do?

Armory Link
for if my crit/ap/whatever is needed to help me figure this out.

Thanks.
#2224SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Actually Strawberry (I think?) asked about this a few pages back with the Reflex blades, and after testing he found exactly what I told him - that the Reflex in MH and an AH green 2.6 was better than either of the epic daggers. I'd hang onto them for whenever those shaman talent changes come out just in case though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2225SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SardonicJoe1
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Here's a more updated version of the math that I linked on the first post from pre-TBC. I just took the equations used and substituted in values appropriate for level 70.

Dexterity Enchant = 12 Agi = 12 x 1.8 = 21.6 AEP = ~1.6 DPS (if 12.73 AP = 1 DPS because of Weapon Mastery)
Length of fight = 6min = 360 seconds
Shaman DPS = 800 (fairly achievable value)

Contribution of Dexterity enchant to damage in a 360 sec fight
360sec * 1.6dps = 576
The run speed enchant would need to make up 576 damage by allowing you to reach your target faster.

576 = 800*[x-x/1.08]
576/800 = x - x/1.08
576/800 = x(1-1/1.08)
Simplifies to x = 9.72

So at level 70, for a 6min fight where your average DPS is 800, a run speed enchant beats out an agility enchant if the fight forces you to move between targets for more than 9.7 seconds. Note that the math above doesn't even account for the 6 Agility on the Cat Swiftness enchant, which would further this as such:

If the DPS contribution of the Dexterity enchant is 576 damage over 360 seconds, than the Agility from the Cat Swiftness enchant (0.8 DPS) would be worth 288 damage in the same fight. Therefore you really only need to beat out 576 - 288 = 288 damage over the fight.
This would lead to the equations above simplifying to x = 4.85, so you really only need to have less than 5 seconds of movement on a 6 minute fight for the Cat Swiftness enchant to be come superior to the Dexterity enchant.
this is completely wrong. in your first equation, you set the wrong quantities equal to each other. you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done. hence your incorrect conclusion. the following is the correct derivation...


A = dps offered by 1 agility
T = total dps time for a boss fight (this does not include times where melee must stop dps, like running out of RoF on azgalor, but it DOES include the time you spend outside of melee range when there is no fire)
t = total time spent outside of melee range, during which you COULD have been dpsing (see above example)

over the course of the fight, dexterity will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

12 A (T - t)

over the course of the fight, cats swiftness (6agi+minor speed) will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

6 A (T - t') = 6 A (T - t/1.08)

so lets suppose that cats swiftness is better than dexterity and see what conditions T and t must satisfy for that to be true...

6A(T-t/1.08) > 12A(T-t)

...now you cancel out the A (so it really doesn't matter how much dps 1agi gives, just the assumption that 1agi gives a static amount of dps), and do some algebra to obtain...

T < (2-1/1.08)t ===> T < 1.074 t

so cats swiftness is better than dexterity if and only if the total time of the fight is LESS THAN 1.074 times the time you would normally spend outside of melee range. clearly, this condition is never satisfied on a normal boss fight. for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

please correct this on the front page for those thinking that minor run speed is worth getting.
#2251SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Malan
A chance for you (yes, You!) to help improve this thread!

I'm working on converting this thread over to the theorycraft wiki, and I need some information. There's a few things that we've discussed that have been lost to the ages but are "common knowledge" that I need some actual math/testing to backup the reasoning for. I've been trying to locate this stuff but I'm failing at searching and having a general lack of time between work/raiding/writing.

So, if people can PM me or post here if they have a link to the info, or if they can rework it here for us, it'd be much appreciated. (Please don't just tell me "its a few pages back" as that could mean anything these days)

Info I need:
  • Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?
  • I have the math showing the new WF as still good for rogues, lacking such evidence for Warriors.
  • Anyone still have a link to Flametongue vs WF for OH?
  • And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.

Last edited by Malan : 09/07/07 at 12:04 PM.
#2252SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:


I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.
Can not reproduce these results in my sim for second and third quote. What were other stats? Haste, weapon speed, weapon dps and weapon skill? Remember to set Hours to 1000+, 10000 is recommended. Hit should be close to Crit in second quote with Crit still better. Haste is way too small in third quote (maybe you copied armor penetration instead?)
#2253SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
  • specific reasoning on DW vs 2H for PvE - I know its largely because of flurry/UR uptime, but I lack the specifics, ie - impossible to maintain greater than X flurry uptime with Z crit rate, etc
Well not just that, but DW benefits more from AP than 2h. Since 2h gets it benefit from 1.0 times AP, which Duel Weild gains benefit from 1.5 times AP (since ap affects both MH and OH -- this is if you have capped +hit however). With 0% hit, 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. As you can see, the more +hit we have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base dps of a 2h weapon over similar ilevel 1h weapons.

So uh, in other words, as well as improved uptime of UR, you'll also have higher white dmg while DWing.
#2254SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Thanks that's good info.
#2255SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[*]I cannot locate the original evidence of the 36% proc rate for DW windfury.
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#2256SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
I dual wield because it allows for two weapon imbues, two weapon enchants and gives 1 dps per 10.5 AP rather than 1 dps per 14.

Increased flurry and UR uptime is just icing on the cake.
#2257SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.
#2258SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
[dual wield] gives 1 dps per 10.5 AP rather than 1 dps per 14.
This is a pretty gross oversimplification. The amount of AP needed for 1 DPS scales with the amount of +hit you have, and the ratio at which it scales changes based on whether or not your special attacks are hit capped or not.

Well not just that, but DW benefits more from AP than 2h. Since 2h gets it benefit from 1.0 times AP, which Duel Weild gains benefit from 1.5 times AP (since ap affects both MH and OH -- this is if you have capped +hit however). With 0% hit, 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. As you can see, the more +hit we have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base dps of a 2h weapon over similar ilevel 1h weapons.
This is more or less correct. Another major reason is that you must heavily pad your threat when using a 2Her since a single Windfury is a tremendous amount of threat, which cuts in to your total DPS time. Additionally, it is basically impossible to escape some amount of +hit that inevitably goes to waste when you are using a two-handed weapon, and there is no talent that offsets the extra 6% hit from dual wielding [i.e. you can't spend points elsewhere if you wanted to use a two hander, there are just no other useful points to spend at that point in the tree]. The talents that a Shaman gets are good enough for dual wielding that DW (up to 9% hit) is automatically more sustained DPS than using a 2H weapon (up to 3% hit). The ratio described above is .94:1.245 with a 0/42/19 build, and dual wielding also allows all special attacks to be hit-capped through talents alone.
#2259SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
That's correct Malan. Other people, I found out later, had mathematical/theoretical reasons for the 36% being the right number, as opposed to a different number 34 to 37%. I found them compelling enough, and in line with the data enough, that I've used 36% ever since.
#2260SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok I've added in all the stuff from above.
#2261SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Xoya
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR.
How on earth are you getting nearly 2000 AP from raid buffs? The highest I've gotten consistently (and granted, I don't have Ashtongue Talisman of Vision) is 2800-ish, AFTER unleashed rage, and I've only got ~50 AP less than you unbuffed.

Edit: Oh, er, you're wearing a Wavemender's Mantle in your armory profile. What do you usually wear?

Last edited by Xoya : 09/07/07 at 12:59 PM.
#2262SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Can not reproduce these results in my sim for second and third quote. What were other stats? Haste, weapon speed, weapon dps and weapon skill? Remember to set Hours to 1000+, 10000 is recommended. Hit should be close to Crit in second quote with Crit still better. Haste is way too small in third quote (maybe you copied armor penetration instead?)
Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

Both hasted to 2.61 (so I didn't introduce haste but just put the actual speed value that I get from Fists of Mukoa).

356 Weapon Skill Rating (Belt of One Hundred Deaths).

4400 armor on boss (default I think).

23% hit (I assumed it works like 12% from talents + 9% from hit rating in my gear)

The rest as you know. All tests were done at 1000 swings.

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Valyra, we have same AP when you have flask up :p

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/07/07 at 1:35 PM.
#2263SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.
#2264SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
  • And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.

The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum.

"OH eating MH problem" brought up here, and discussed sporadically over the next 2 pages (earliest post I could find on this forum that mentioned OH swings stealing MH procs): The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)


I posted test results related to this problem on page 11 of that thread. The conclusions I drew from the test at the time were flawed for a number of reasons, but the data is useful at least. I don't think anyone else has posted test data on this problem.

Don't want to quote the entire thing here, but it's on page 11 of the thread. I was using Black Planar Edge/Malchazeen and logging my number of mainhand vs offhand procs to see how it comapared to my mainhand vs offhand white swings.

White swings: 40% mainhand / 60% offhand
WF procs: 43.36% mainhand / 56.64% offhand


As far as I can tell, a fast offhand interferes with your total windfury damage by keeping you on 3-second cooldown a greater portion of the time. It does not interfere with mainhand windfury specifically (i.e. it interferes with MH and OH windfury equally). Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.
#2265SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yah I dislike the eating/stealing wording as well, and also the notion that it "lowers" your DPS. Its not really lowering anything by using a faster OH, its just capping you at a lower potential DPS.
#2266SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry
Tabs with procs and details are not working (no item proc was modelled) - they are for show of what I am going to do. If you think something is missing in design - please point to it.
If you have an idea of better add-free hosting somewhere - I will use it.

Important: If you do not put haste directly but put hasted weeapon speeds instead - the AEP value for haste will be higher than real one.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 2:42 PM.
#2267SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[*]And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.[/list]
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum..... Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.
You may want to use first or fifth picture from this post Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Originally Posted by Nisall View Post
The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.
We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 2:23 PM.
#2268SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Toots Hepcat
EDIT: Pff, this whole "eligible swings," proc chance per hit stuff is corroding my brain's already poor statistical ability. I've removed possible disinformation until such time that I can better organize it.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/07/07 at 2:45 PM.
#2269SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.
The theoretical explaination is that when you have double Windfury enchants, both enchants have a chance to proc on each swing. This gives a (.8 * .8) 64% of no proc, or a 36% chance of proccing per swing. This also explains why quad procs happened with staggered ranks, as there would be a 4% chance of both windfuries proccing on the same swing.

One thing I've never seen mentioned or tested is if WF buffing both weapons applies even if the other weapon has an enchant other than windfury. It seems unlikely, but is theoretically possible.

(source: WoW Forums -> 2.1 Windfury Is Still Bugged! )
#2270SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?
#2271SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
But a 36% proc chance per HAND would result in an in-game proc rate of around 59%.
Why?
#2272SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Been thinking, with the incoming 60% mana reduction to shocks and potential +1000 spelldamage raidbuffed, switching from Water Shield to Lightning Shield in raids will be mana viable, and I suspect very very damage viable also.

There has been any maths on it?
#2273SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Yo -- my error here was confusion over the term "eligible white hits." I think I have just about purged it from my brain, but I do need to go over my WWS data to convince myself of that fact.
#2274SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Is it realistic to expect over 1k spell damage from enhancement shaman, even with the new buffs to the talents?
#2275SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.
#2276SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?
Judging by AEP, the stat bonus for the meta possibilities are about equal:
[Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond] - 24aep
[Potent Unstable Diamond] - 24aep
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 24 aep w/ kings
[Swift Skyfire Diamond] - 24 aep

The [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] +3% crit damage bonus works for all crits, spell and melee. So, (pure theoretical) this should result in an increase in your DPS of + ( ( 0.03 * melee_crit% * dps_from_melee ) + ( 0.03 * spell_crit% * dps_from_spells ) )

The advantages of the other meta gems are either PvP related, or gains which can be had in other slots (run speed). This is the only equipment slot where we can add +3% crit damage.
#2277SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.
I don't have that consistantly, but with trinkets and raid buffs, I hit 500+ SR ticks. Which is around that number. And we're just on vashj/solarian as far as progression.
#2278SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.
The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?
Hope this helps



Originally Posted by Nisall View Post
The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.
EDIT: This explains it (each hit has 2 chances to proc WF when dual-wielding)... but why each hit has 2 chances to proc remains unknown (is it intended by Blizz or it is a bug).

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 6:38 PM.
#2280SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yo - much better, now we can see the sharper curve on the left side of the graph, illustrating the rising % of OH procs.
#2281SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I prefer mail for one simple reason: Rogues get far more out of their gear than we do. A rogue and an enhancement shaman in the exact same leather gear, the rogue will come out better on top every time. If a leather piece drops and a rogue needs it, they get first crack. If a mail piece drops, screw hunters. Seriously. Many mail pieces are also actually superior to the equivalent tier leather for us. Right now I'd consider wearing only 1 piece of leather from Black Temple: Cursed Vision and one piece from SSC: Belt of One Hundred Deaths.

You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway.
I understand wanting to give good leather gear to rogues because it enhances them more than us, but the fact remains that leather gear is the best gear for enhancement shaman. So, if you're coming along to buff all the melee dps, then you should be allowed to roll on leather gear and increase your dps as well as the rogue's.
#2282SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
I understand wanting to give good leather gear to rogues because it enhances them more than us, but the fact remains that leather gear is the best gear for enhancement shaman. So, if you're coming along to buff all the melee dps, then you should be allowed to roll on leather gear and increase your dps as well as the rogue's.
I only see leather as the best in 4 slots at T6. Helm, bracers, belt and chest. The difference elsewhere is so incredibly marginal as to have intellect and AR tip the favor towards mail.

Sure in Karazhan you have Bladed Shoulderpads and Cowl of Defiance and Edgewalker, and Skulkers greaves being better than many T5 items. But when you consider a 25 man setting, a Rogue brings the best single target dps, scaling better than any other dps class bar none. You are doing your raid a disservice by not allocating items to where they do the most good. You are brought to raids precisely to buff your rogues and warriors, the dps you do in order to buff is considered bonus.

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/07/07 at 5:36 PM.
#2283SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I only see leather as the best in 4 slots at T6. Helm, bracers, belt and chest. The difference elsewhere is so incredibly marginal as to have intellect and AR tip the favor towards mail.
Mignight Chestguard, Insidious Bands, Cursed Vision of Sargeras and Belt of One-Hundred Deaths.
#2284SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
This explains it (each hit has 2 chances to proc WF when dual-wielding)... but why it happens remains unknown.
First of all, a very nice graph showing the relation of MH and OH speeds

The 'why' is normal statistics.

Take a coin and flip it. Each flip has a 50% chance to be heads or tails.

Lets take 2 flips. The 4 different combinations are
heads - heads
heads - tails
tails - heads
tails - tails

[math; h=heads, t=tails]
1. The chance that both flips are heads is 25% [math; 0.5h*0.5h= 0.25h] (you can compare this to the 4% chance to get a dual proc pre rank fix)
2. The chance that at least one flip is heads is 75% [math; 0.5h*0.5t + 0.5t*0.5h + 0.5h*0.5h = 0.75 with at least 1 h] (you can compare this to the 36% chance to any WF proc)
3. The chance for one coin to get heads is 50% (you can compare this to the 20% chance to proc WF from a single weapon)
#2285SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
#2286SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Valyra, we have same AP when you have flask up :p
Yes, I realized you had a resto piece on after the fact, but I still don't get how you're getting 34xx with raid buffs (which I now realize you mean all average AP including unleashed rage, which you shouldn't be inputting into the sim; sim calculates unleashed rage itself). If you remove the extra AP from ashtongue talisman & unleashed rage, that's about 600 less AP, so let's say 2800 with raid buffs. That's a little more believable, since I think I've calculated that I get about 1100 AP from raid buffs, not including unleashed rage.

The confusion was in the term "raid buffed". I thought it was generally accepted that the term "raid buffed" meant everything but proc effects, so for us, things like unleashed rage, ashtongue talisman, average added crit and ap from mongoose/other trinkets, etc.
#2287SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
Lootzor is missing a few important pieces of gear (or was the last time I looked), but generally it'll point you in the right direction.

I've been using Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers and doing searches on each slot lately though. Unfortunately it assigns values to gem slots directly instead of assigning points based on actual gems/bonuses though.
#2288SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
Lootzor is missing a few important pieces of gear (or was the last time I looked), but generally it'll point you in the right direction.
It's actually missing the -armor and the haste items. After 2.2 haste items will be way worse (except for the gloves) so it does not really matter. There are not too much armor penetration items for us and we don't really know it's value, thus we can ignore them as well. (By the way I use 1 armor penetration = 0.27 AEP value in pawn)
#2289SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
I guess it's up to you and the values you like/use. In my list both items do not even make it into the top3.
#2290SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Beroll View Post
I guess it's up to you and the values you like/use. In my list both items do not even make it into the top3.
Thats because your list doesnt give any value to +skill and +haste. The +skill makes the belt by far the best in the game currently. (and thats with most formulas possibly even underestimating +skill if I'm not misinformed)
#2291SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Also, I would like to lose some words about specc. I recently read a post in the official forum (please don't laugh at me for reading it) who claimed to have the "agreed on best talent build", but it had Imp. Ghostwolf for example. I don't see how such a build could be the best there is.
#2292SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).
Crit gives the expected damage increase plus damage through increased flurry/UR uptime. The more you gain though the closer those uptimes get to 100% and the smaller the return on each additional % is.
#2293SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Also, I would like to lose some words about specc. I recently read a post in the official forum (please don't laugh at me for reading it) who claimed to have the "agreed on best talent build", but it had Imp. Ghostwolf for example. I don't see how such a build could be the best there is.
Imp. Ghostwolf is useful for running between Air Elementals in SMV, but that's about it, though for a raid DPS spec I don't see where else you would put those points, mental quickness maybe?
#2294SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Well, the complete math behind it would depend on whose model you are using. You can check all the excellent sims and calculators here to see for yourself. As far as the intuition goes, its because a large part of our dps is determined by a multiplicative function that includes all relevant stats.

Let me give you a couple of examples:

say you do 100dps, but you have 0 crit. Then you add about 5% crit. That is a 5% dps increase (105/100). Now consider that you have accumulated gear to the point where you have 30% crit, all else constant: all of the sudden, an additional 5% crit will not get you a 5% dps increase (135/130=~3.8%)

Alternatively, think of it this way: item stats cost the same, but give uneven benefits depending on how much you have of them. if you have 100 crit rating and 0 attack power, you'd be better off switching some crit out for ap. So its not that crit gets "worse," just that, depending on your stat allocation, you see different benefits from each stat. The goal, then, is to get to that point where you get the most out of a given stat budget.
#2295SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
smokey
I'd like to know what is the ultimate combo of weapons for DW, i just got the Syphon (/w axe arena S2) from supremus, and i guess the best options are :

- 2xsyphons
- rising tide + syphon
- dragonstrike + syphon

I know all those options are very viable, but i'm looking for the very best optimisation, and i can afford respec forge. So if someone know about it, tell me plz.

sorry for my newbish question and my english p

edit : I did some test with the servant in the blasted, it apears that the syphon gives best DPS when its MH equiped (/w axe arena S2 in OH) :

500k sample, auto attack, no SS :

syphon + axe S2 = 875 DPS
axe S2 + syphon = 887 DPS

Last edited by smokey : 09/07/07 at 10:51 PM.
#2296SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:







I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.
I'm confused. Are you wearing tier 12?
#2297SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I'm confused. Are you wearing tier 12?
Was thinking the same thing here.

Theres no way having 3500 AP while maintaining 45% constant crit with the current itemzation.

I remember reading once in my old fury warrior days that Crit go into diminishing returns once you go over 33% crit unbuffed. However, From what I can fathom it's pretty darn easy reaching this once you reach BT/MH.

Btw, Good job on the number crunching peeps.. it makes my days in college run much smoother crunching numbers
#2298SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
He probably means raid buffed with UR, Rallying Cry, and Power Surge up! Hyjal is the only place I've been able to reach those numbers. 38% crit with.. a feral druid and retadin maybe?
#2299SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
He's saying 3500 AP with 45% Crit. Crit alone will be on a short duration timer which will be attained when you have EVERYTHING procing at the same time.

Now add him having 3500 AP at the same time... I want a screen shot if possible
#2300SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vokzhen
Glancing through here to reduce my ignorance, and just thought I'd point out your Shock calculations are incorrect in the opening post. Multipliers are multiplicative.
Earth Shock - 1.05*1.2 = 1.26%
Flame Shock - 1.05*.1.15*1.13 ~ 1.364%
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Leveret View Post
Windfury Totem (Rank 5): Summons a Windfury Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards. Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 2 min.

Windfury Weapon (Rank 5): Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 30 minutes.

Elemental Weapons (Rank 3): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%.

Improved Weapon Totems (Rank 2): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Windfury Totem by 30% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Totem by 12%.

According to the description, it seems Elemental Weapons is supposed to be adding 40% to the attack power bonus of Windfury Weapon, not to its damage. But it appears from all the calculations in this thread that Elemental Weapons is treated as a 40% bonus to Windfury damage, not a 40% bonus to the attack power bonus. I assume that this was shown through testing? In any case, if Elemental Weapons is indeed providing a 40% bonus to Windfury damage rather than 40% bonus to the attack power bonus, then Windfury Totem is actually providing more AP bonus after talents than Windfury Weapon. Or is it possible, since the description of Elemental Weapons is apparently inaccurate, that Improved Weapon Totems is also really providing a 30% bonus to Windfury Totem damage rather than a 30% to the attack power bonus?

Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc. 40% of the damage (which means it scales with every single melee stat you have) is much, much better than 30% of 445 AP.

Ignoring the slight difference in AP, and ignoring the differences between white attacks (through windfury totem) and yellow ones (i.e., lower miss rate, glancing blows, etc), you'd have to lower your attack speed to almost 0.1 seconds to have a similar dps increase from windfury totem.
#2402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator

Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
#2403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
This would be really nice to have.
#2404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Are all of these commonly asked questions covered in the OP? It's much easier if we can just quickly reply with "read the OP".
No, not all of them. The Blacksmithing stuff is probably one of the most often asked questions (I'm not a smith so I usually just skip over those posts to be honest), and the 2nd most frequent is probably "hey my DPS sucks please look at my armory and tell me why."

If people have an idea of something to add, please post it here and I'll add it. Kindly provide a link to the original posts/discussion so that I can provide references though.

Edit - I've added in the AEP evaluation of the stats on the weapons from the previous page.

Last edited by Malan : 09/11/07 at 9:38 AM.
#2405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc. 40% of the damage (which means it scales with every single melee stat you have) is much, much better than 30% of 445 AP.

Ignoring the slight difference in AP, and ignoring the differences between white attacks (through windfury totem) and yellow ones (i.e., lower miss rate, glancing blows, etc), you'd have to lower your attack speed to almost 0.1 seconds to have a similar dps increase from windfury totem.
The description is definitely referring to the bonus attack power, not the damage. If it's referring to the damage, it would say something like this instead:
"Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, and increases the damage caused by your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%, and your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%."

However, it would appear that that description is incorrect.

It's curious, I found this bit in WoWWiki:

"Also in 2.01, Windfury received a huge buff by way of elemental weapons. Elemental weapons now adds a flat +40% damage to your two Windfury occurances, as opposed to +40% to the attack power bonus. This buff adds a flat +16% damage increase, furthering Windfury's effectiveness to add +56% additional melee DPS!"

So it looks like Elemental Weapons used to do what the tooltip says, but was later changed in a huge buff to it. But I checked the patch notes and can't find anything about this. And they never bothered to actually change the text of the talent. So I'm wondering if anyone here remembers when this change was made? And more importantly, if a similar buff was made at the same time to Improved Weapon Totems? Since Improved Weapon Totems and Elemental Weapons were providing similar buffs to Windfury bonus attack power initially, it may be possible that they were both buffed at the same time.
#2406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Evilgrin
So I was searching the forums and I keep seeing people say that Toughness and Anticapation are worthless. In that case what should we be using. I am normally a solo shaman that joins PuGs and don't want to "gimp" myself. I know my gear is still low, but I am working towards my Kara/Arc keys now. If this is the wrong thread to ask about builds, then please point me in the right direction.
#2407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yo! - what does the "Shocks + ST" value mean in the sim? And why does it have a text entry box?

@evilgrin - It just falls in line with the idea that you shouldn't be getting hit, and we aren't tanks. Those talents aren't really contributing to DPS or group buffs. You didn't take Imp Weapon Totems for instance, which would directly benefit the warriors you group with. I only take a few points in Anticipation just to fill my required number of points.

Hopefully some day blizzard will change Imp Lightning Shield to benefit ALL of the shaman Shields, and then we can shift points into that.
#2408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc.
No. Not at all. There would be a colossal (I mean fucking huge) difference between your normal hits and your WF hits if this were the case.
#2409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rhaal
I haven't been following up on replies for this thread for a while, and this might have been pointed out before, however I'll still say it :P

I have Dragonstrike as well as 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim, and wondered what the best DPS setup would be, went unbuffed to Blasted Lands with a healer bot, and tested only with windfury, storm strike and whatever item procs.
Each test lasted for about 26-27 minutes of undisturbed DPS on the "immortal" mobs, result was:


Dragonstrike + Syphon
DPS : 1140.1

Normal :         56.0%   average hit : 563    max hit : 1246
Windfury :       34.1%   average hit : 954.3  max hit : 1995
Storm Strike :    9.2%
Siphon Essence :  0.7%

Total damage : 1.790.932

2 x Syphon
DPS : 1122.2

Normal :         54.9%   average hit : 586.6 max hit : 1327
Windfury :       34.7%   average hit : 983.2 max hit : 2123
Storm Strike :    9.5%
Siphon Essence :  0.9%

Total damage : 1.824.024
Observation : 2x syphon of the nathrezim procs does not seem to stack, the buff just gets renewed.


And if anyone is at all interested, my unbuffed stats are :

Attack power : 1586
Crit chance : 30.85%
Hit rating : 176 (resulting in a total of 20.16% crit, including talents)
Haste Rating : 37
Armor ignore : 0

item procs :
Ashtongue talisman of vision : 275 ap
Dragonspine Trophy : 325 haste rating
Dragonstrike : 212 haste rating
Syphon of the Nathrezim : 20 point lifedrain on hit
Mongoose enchant : 120 agi, 2% haste

Conclussion : For now Dragonstrike is better in mainhand than Syphon, however after the 2.2 haste nerf the scales should tip the other way.
#2410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Rhaal do you think you could hop on the PTR and do the same test just for completeness?
#2411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Leveret View Post
It's curious, I found this bit in WoWWiki:

"Also in 2.01, Windfury received a huge buff by way of elemental weapons. Elemental weapons now adds a flat +40% damage to your two Windfury occurances, as opposed to +40% to the attack power bonus. This buff adds a flat +16% damage increase, furthering Windfury's effectiveness to add +56% additional melee DPS!"

Elemental Weapons has never increased AP, since implementation it always has increased the damage by windfury by 40%.

This was integrated shortly after the AP reduction of Windfury back in 1.10 or something, to counter the lower dps.

The tooltip was changed in 1.12 or something to actually cover this behaviour.
#2412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
Elemental Weapons has never increased AP, since implementation it always has increased the damage by windfury by 40%.

This was integrated shortly after the AP reduction of Windfury back in 1.10 or something, to counter the lower dps.

The tooltip was changed in 1.12 or something to actually cover this behaviour.
Do you know if the same applies to Improved Weapon Totems?
#2413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3smokey
@Rhaal

Thx man ! This is exaclty what i needed, it helps much more than "read the freakin 97 pages"
#2414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Leveret View Post
The description is definitely referring to the bonus attack power, not the damage. If it's referring to the damage, it would say something like this instead:
"Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, and increases the damage caused by your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%, and your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%."
The initial quote of the tooltip is incorrect. What it actually says is "Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%".

And that's exactly what it does.
#2415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Thargaull
Help with lv 70 enhancement

Hi,

I'm new to this place and I wanted to ask about what possible gear upgrades exist for an enhancement shaman given: The Armory

... I don't like raiding, I pvp off and on, and run heroics fairly regularly. I was wondering if one of the veterans might have an idea or two regarding gear/gem selection and possible upgrades

Regards,
Thargaull

PS: I am planning to get the season 2 pvp one hand wpn (2.6 spd, 97 dps)
#2416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Malevolencia View Post
The initial quote of the tooltip is incorrect. What it actually says is "Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%".

And that's exactly what it does.
It looks like they did change it at some point...but it wasn't even a good change, it now says "increases the damage caused by..." twice.

I still wonder if anyone tested to see what Improved Weapon Totems does? It seems that it is such an unpopular talent that nobody has done any testing on it.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
I want to confirm what I believe everyone is on board with now - the 40% is of the whole hit.

If my Windfury was going to do 100 damage (after including an extra 445ap), it will now do 140. This is one of those things I confirmed doing all the damage tests when building my mod.
#2418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Pawn has a new update just posted yesterday -

http://vgermods.com/Documents/Pawn-0.6-beta1.zip

Version 0.6 beta 1

* Weapon stats have been overhauled! Old scales will work, but now advanced users have a variety of new options for assigning values to weapons.
* New stats: MeleeMinDamage, MeleeMaxDamage, MeleeSpeed, MeleeDps, MainHandMinDamage, MainHandMaxDamage, MainHandSpeed, MainHandDps, OffHandMinDamage, OffHandMaxDamage, OffHandSpeed, OffHandDps, OneHandMinDamage, OneHandMaxDamage, OneHandSpeed, OneHandDps, TwoHandMinDamage, TwoHandMaxDamage, TwoHandSpeed, TwoHandDps, RangedMinDamage, RangedMaxDamage, RangedSpeed, RangedDps. Generally, you'll only use a few of these, and not give values to all of them.
* New stats: MinDamage, MaxDamage, Speed. If you don't care about which slot or weapon type it is, just use MinDamage, MaxDamage, Speed, and/or Dps. Dps is now calculated to full precision (say, 41.333 instead of 41.3) instead of rounded to one decimal place.
* Added support for weapon damage enchantments (Striking and Impact).
* Added support for ranged weapon scopes.
* Fixed a problem where certain items with suffixes would show unusually low unenchanted values (their stats would be read as 0). For example, Chimaerascale Legguards of the Bandit exhibited this problem.
* Added support for Black Morass instance-bound items (beacons).
Weapon support has been added, we can now examine things based on speed, min/max dmg. Anyone willing to take a stab as to how to value those?
#2419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Krish View Post
For Mac users out there that want to run the sim, it's pretty simple if you follow my instructions from P94. If you're still having trouble at that point, I suppose I could detail the instructions (though the readme included in Apple's download are pretty clear.

Yo, I see the changes you made to the overall frame's width and height, but the inner frame that seems to be defined for the tabs is still blocking the AEP values. Here's a screenshot, hope it helps. Thanks for your continued work on the sim.
Changed some sizes again...
Hope this works.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I want to confirm what I believe everyone is on board with now - the 40% is of the whole hit.

If my Windfury was going to do 100 damage (after including an extra 445ap), it will now do 140. This is one of those things I confirmed doing all the damage tests when building my mod.
I am with it.

Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
This is on my what-to-do list.
I was going to model trinkets - something that is fun from my pov, but will add buff tab before as it will benefit usability.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo! - what does the "Shocks + ST" value mean in the sim? And why does it have a text entry box?
That is your DPS that comes from shocking and fire totems (ST = searing totem).
It is not modelled in sim that's why you have an option to input it directly.
It is gear-independent mostly as you don't have spell crit, +spell, spell hit, etc. so it should be the same for almost everyone depending only on how fast your reflexes are in shocking and renewing ST.

Originally Posted by Bain View Post
I'm sorry to bring this up again, but the previous few posts have me confused again.

With those changing AEP values, doesn't it really suggests that its more of a certain preference to particular stats over other stats? Ie, if in endgame gear, you hope to achieve a certain amount of haste in opposition to higher AP and Crit, then your Haste Rating will have a substantially higher AEP than your AP/Crit AEP.

But to achieve max dps, we're aiming for the best loot combination, and this loot combination will be the same everytime as stats on loot don't change (subject to Blizz actually changing it).

So shouldn't AEP values be a static value, and shouldn't we be aiming for the best loot that drops in each instance?
The fact that there is one best loot combination in WOW does not mean that local AEP values achieved with this combination are the best for you. What AEP values are showing is that "you have very low +haste - it is becooming of increased value for you" or "you can trade this much of +hit for that much of +ap". AEP values are not static. Now about the "best loot that drops in each instance". There is defintely some loot that falls into category - "go for it" (an example - Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft and your local AEP will score it the same way but even without knowing AEP value of that loot you know that it is an upgrade. But how about the choice between say Surestrike Goggles v2.0 - Items - World of Warcraft and Cataclysm Helm - Items - World of Warcraft? Sebudai will do better with first while Tsalrioth will do better with second. If Tsalrioth would use Sebudai's AEP values he will do wrong choice resulting in few dps loss that could possibly push his DPS just bellow Sebudais that can make their guild leader choose Sebudai for the next raid (if they were in the same guild and only one vacancy). If both of them use "average" and not local AEP values they both risk to not choose the best gear that is available for them while they still will of course choose such upgrades like Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft. This being said do not rely on local AEP values entirely when comparing very close items - you better use sim.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/11/07 at 2:50 PM.
#2420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
I was also curious about the input for Shocks/Searing Totem.

I assumed it was for choosing not to shock/totem incase you were twisting WF/GoA and didn't have the mana to shock.

Anyone have an idea of what the general average DPS you would normally see from those two?
#2421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rhaal
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Rhaal do you think you could hop on the PTR and do the same test just for completeness?
I'm not sure if i'll have time for it, if I do, I'll make sure to post it here at least
#2422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
dunno what to use

hello guys
well with the upcoming haste nerf i dont know what to use :
true-aimed stalker bands with 8 hit gem
or
binding of lightning reflexes

0.22% crit and 8 hit vs 6 ap and 2.57% haste

well with the nerf i still think haste is good source of dps
but i gotta ask to be sure
#2423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Malan
You should probably be more concerned with finding the missing period and shift key from your keyboard.
I'm also guessing that this is you? The Armory
Which means your profile could probably use an update too.

After that, I'd suggest you check the first post in this thread which clearly outlines how you can value those items all on your own, either in or out of the game.

Edit - I'm not trying to be a dick (well maybe a little) but its gotten stupid silly how many posts are cropping up lately that could be easily answered based on all the information in the first post - its why we compiled all this stuff in the first place.

Last edited by Malan : 09/11/07 at 4:58 PM.
#2424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Windfury totem is included in the sim.
Suprisingly - there is the point of haste where it is better than WF imbue that may be achieved but not upkeeped constantly - you need 300% haste from haste rating and bloodlust combined. However Rockbiter seems to outperform WF totem with almost any wepon.
#2425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bain
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
The fact that there is one best loot combination in WOW does not mean that local AEP values achieved with this combination are the best for you. What AEP values are showing is that "you have very low +haste - it is becooming of increased value for you" or "you can trade this much of +hit for that much of +ap". AEP values are not static. Now about the "best loot that drops in each instance". There is defintely some loot that falls into category - "go for it" (an example - Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft and your local AEP will score it the same way but even without knowing AEP value of that loot you know that it is an upgrade. But how about the choice between say Surestrike Goggles v2.0 - Items - World of Warcraft and Cataclysm Helm - Items - World of Warcraft? Sebudai will do better with first while Tsalrioth will do better with second. If Tsalrioth would use Sebudai's AEP values he will do wrong choice resulting in few dps loss that could possibly push his DPS just bellow Sebudais that can make their guild leader choose Sebudai for the next raid (if they were in the same guild and only one vacancy). If both of them use "average" and not local AEP values they both risk to not choose the best gear that is available for them while they still will of course choose such upgrades like Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft. This being said do not rely on local AEP values entirely when comparing very close items - you better use sim.

Thank you profusely! I've been having a few tough gear choice decisions of late, and this explanation made it crystal clear!

Thanks once again, and thank you everyone for your hard work! Keep it up!
#2601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Crit rate is taken as a percentage over ALL swings, not just the ones that hit. WWS will show crit rates as #Crit/#Hits.

I'd recommend the Bloodlust Brooch over the Abacus. Remove all your hit gems.

I say again....

REMOVE ALL YOUR HIT GEMS.
#2602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• fangar
Wow first post and I get yelled at by Malan. Thanks.

One hit gem no less. I have been hoping to replace those gloves so I didn't bother regemming them (I had them an exceptionally long time from when I was hardcore resto and gemmed up all the hunter gear I got with +8 hit before I knew any better).

Working on my badges for the brooch, I am just exceptionally lazy.

Regarding the crit rate. Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that the WWS tallied in the same manner as what actually happens in the combat table. Shame on me for assuming.

Last edited by fangar : 09/17/07 at 12:07 PM.
#2603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Spelling error
#2604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
#2605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
To be honest, the only time I totem twist is when we are clearing trash just to make it go faster. I don't use the prism, although I have one. Just keep an eye on your threat meter and you will be fine. When you get about 80% of tank's threat stop shocking and just auto attack to let your aggro gradually drop. On fights like VR, I generally drop tranquil air until he is at 70% anyways.
#2606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Oh. Well honestly all I did was mouse over a few items and the first one I saw had a +Hit gem on it, so I just stopped there and figured you probably had more.
#2607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Silverspring
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
#2608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
When does DPS > speed on a weapon

I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, disregarding stats, when is a faster weapon a better choice than a slower, lower DPS weapon?

My armory link in case it's useful to the question:
The Armory
#2609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.

Originally Posted by fangar
I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.
I've done it from blues/Karazhan gear up to my current gear; I'll endorse it fully. Initial TA's are amazing, it not only lowers your threat ceiling but your party's as well. I generally switch out TA for GoA once aggro is well established (ie 10-15ish% below tank threat), and it's simple math from this point on sustainability and overall dps increase. With mental quickness and totemic mastery TA/WF is 173.5/5 mana to keep up, GoA/WF is 218.5/5 or 20820/26220 mana on a 10 min fight. This isn't even that much mana, it's when coupling it with shocks every CD that it gets intensive and unsustainable- think about it, 7xxx mana raidbuffed, full mana bars every rage excluding your first, it's a maximum of needing 4 rages to keep up cycling when you are allowed 5 rages in a 10 min fight, you're looking at 7xxx+leftover mana from your 4th rage for shocks, something like 17 flame shocks + whatever you can do to burn down your mana before your first early/subsequent rages.

Cycling totems requires a small portion of awareness because your SR's are what let the build do what it does, so you need to make sure various abilities have gone off before you hit your rage(ie graves, iceblock, roots, whirlwind, whirl, tomb, meteor timer, port timer, flamestrike, spine, bloodboil, fa, sleep, rain of fire, burst, fear, ect), although I suppose this is true even if you are just a shock person!
#2610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Re: yellow damage crits: I am seeing a lot of variation of the crit percentage between white damage, windfury and SS. WF and SS are ALWAYS lower than white damage, and in long parses (~1M damage overall) WF and SS seem to approach the same percentage. But it's not as simple as being 6% less, as might be expected...it's more like 3-4% less?

Strangely, the crit percentages between WF and SS were as out of whack as I've ever seen them on my Gruul's raid last week, where I spent about half the time in a group with the feral druids. SS was about 2% higher than WF.

(There were also some turning issues...I don't SS when a mob's front is to me because that usually means one of the rogues has drawn aggro and if I don't scale back I'm next. Sure enough, my WF hit rate is about 5% lower than my SS hit rate, so it could be as simple as that)

Disco, can you dream up a test of the two roll-theory?
#2611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
edit: @ fangar. Wow you guys post fast.

I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.

For VR, are you being put in the tank group? The added WF/GoA/UR buffs usually mean I don't have to worry about threat at all. Also, I try to save lust for when I'm sneaking up on threat. You're getting Salvation, right?
#2612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Toots Hepcat
bigity: I've found empirically that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand. You can predict which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post, they're usually quite close.

I don't know that anybody's researched the exact relationship between weapon speed and damage, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. Remember, you want high swing damage for WF and SS procs -- you'd need a 2.0s weapon with at least 78 dps to match your current hammers in terms of swing damage, and by then you're talking L70 epics.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/17/07 at 2:15 PM.
#2613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
bigity: You can prove to yourself which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post. I've found that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand.

I don't know that anybody's researched the relative values of weapon speed and dps, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. I did a sim of the Runic Hammer (2.4s, 83.5 dps) vs. my Boggspine Knuckles (2.6s, 71.7dps) and I kept the knuckles. Whether that's because they were always better, or because the difference didn't outweigh the cost, i don't remember.
Ah ya know I didn't even think about the calculators. How retarded of me Thanks.
#2614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by rava View Post
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
#2615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
#2616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Ya, I'd rather have the my potions up for those moments whne its like "Oh damn, I only have 10 hp!" so I can top myself off asap. Situations like that are more important than losing a few swings IMO. Besides, I don't like having to rely on healers all the time.

But everyone plays differently. If you feel safe relying on your healers, more power to you.
#2617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
#2618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Originally Posted by Silverspring View Post
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
Yeah I did (I have read this entire thread at least once and most posts twice). My raids run against the debuff cap so my simple flame shock was the first to go and I just ES exclusively. I'm actually surprised that that issue is not mentioned here.

Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
#2619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
I do the same thing. When specific healers aren't there, melee tend to not get healed, so those "emergencies cooldowns" are the difference of doing dps or laying on the ground and grabbing a drink while the raid finishes.

2 second heal, global cooldown is done when the heal goes off, you can continue. Does it stop dps? Yes, but, it's winning situation, imo.
#2620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
It only works for cows, you can out range kaz'rogal's stun and a few other things with the cow hit box.

I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
#2621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Well on fights where everyone is taking damage, I can't assume that I will be healed in priority to say the tanks, or other healers. On nights when our resto shamans don't show up, taking the time to heal myself can be life saving. Aside from that, healing yourself when able takes stress off healers, allowing them to focus on the critical players. We have the ability to heal ourselves, there's no reason we can't utilize it.
#2622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
#2623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by bigity View Post
I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers).
A 65 DPS green 2.6 is more damage than a 85 DPS 1.8 (Emerald Ripper) when matched with the same main hand weapon, so chances are pretty good that you'll be better off sticking with the hammers.
#2624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
Spoken like a champion Malan.

Oh, and thanks for the Kael'thas tips a few days back. We killed him last night, congrats to me on T5 chestpiece.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 3:40 PM.
#2625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3BoinKlasik
Mana issues.

Originally Posted by drats View Post
I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.
one of the biggest differences i see between my use of mana while totem twisting and other guilds is that we use a prot paladin in most of our fights. Since tidewalker is the most typical fight for guilds to use a prot paladin i will use that as an example. TW WWS you will note from this parse that JoW accounts for 13 thousand mana in that fight. (although, this is a terrible parse, I was tombed 5 times in a row.)

What I would recommend doing for those of you that seem to have mana issues, is ask your healadins to throw up JoW sometimes. It is up for 20 seconds it is up if they don't refresh it. Even that short time can return a decent amount of mana even in the very long fights.
#2626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
Malan,

I believe the weight for Haste Rating still needs to be updated in the Pawn string, near the bottom of the first post.
#2627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tqq
I'm a little surprised by how low crit% some people on here have considering they are better geared than myself. I am currently at 27.87% with a couple blues left to replace and wearing my more balanced gear with hit, etc. I should break 28% today when I find a damn leather worker to make my Thick Netherscale Breastplate.
#2628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
That statement was in direct regard to invigorate. Look at what was posted,
Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
Take any quote out of context and you can make it sound like whatever you want.

There are two fights I can think of when I actually reach a point where I have to bandage and that's Mother and Council, simply due to the spiky nature and randomness of abilities. Any other boss where it matters has set times when they use abilities, or they use them frequent enough that you are lucky to get 1 tick of a bandage, let alone an uninterrupted heal. Everything is a judgment call, different situations call for different timers, and I'm honestly surprised you'd say something so condescending.
#2629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yasuhiko
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
2) We don't know that Thundering Strikes doesn't grant the crit bonus to yellow attacks. I'm currently of the thought that the observed discrepancy is an effect of the 2-roll system for yellow damage. Some day I or someone else could test this.
My thoughts were that the 6% to hit with DW specialization does not effect Stormstrike and WF, but since we have enough hit (be it from gear or guidance) that we never see it miss anyway.

Last edited by Yasuhiko : 09/17/07 at 7:54 PM.
#2630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Incorrect. The 6% and 3% in resto will hit cap you on specials vs a boss mob.
#2631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
#2632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
#2633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.
#2634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Malan I've got a couple of questions for you. First is about haste. First you say its worth 2.22, but then when you talk about the Haste Potion you say it's only worth 1.42 per point. Could you please clear up which it's supposed to be (maybe its calculated at post nerf value, while other is at pre nerf? I really don't know). Also you might want to add the Insane Strength Potion to that list for those wanting to know. Its (120*2*15)/120=30, with 33 with kings/UR or 36 with both.

My other question is about WF totem and rogues. I know that it's better for sword/mace/fist rogues, but what about dagger rogues? Pre nerf the post I saw where they used the Malch dagger it was only slightly better, but I haven't really seen anything convincing showing if thats still true post nerf, and I couldn't find anything about it when I searched the forums here. Also could you link the thread showing that WF is still good for rogues that you make mention to in the first post. A link to math is always more helpful in an arguement than just saying its better w/o anything to back it up.
#2635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rajni
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

Last edited by Rajni : 09/17/07 at 10:52 PM. Reason: grammar, go!
#2636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Rajni View Post
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

I understand that its less of a nerf to dagger than other rogue specs, but its still a nerf to them since backstab, mutilate, and w/e else they might use (I don't know too much about rogues if you couldn't tell) can't proc it anymore. Given how close WF vs GoA was for dagger rogues thats why I'm wondering if it was enough to make GoA better. Generally our group makeup is me, 2-3 dagger rogues, feral druid, and a warrior and I'm trying to figure out if GoA would be better when the warrior isn't in the group. Hell I would like to see the new numbers for warriors post nerf as well so that I could determine if WF for one person is better than GoA for five.
#2637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
The haste values are just an oversight that I need to correct. It should be 1.48 I believe once 2.2 hits Live.

As far as WF Totem, Disquette is organizing some testing for the next PTR that will provide some final numbers on it.
#2638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Alright thanks. I'll be sure to check back later then to see the final results.
#2639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Illundai
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.

I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast.
As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little.
I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P.

Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?

Last edited by Illundai : 09/18/07 at 12:22 AM.
#2640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?
That would entirely depend on your own stats/buffs. Why not run Yo!'s sim to compare the weapons?
#2641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok I think I've corrected all occurrences of Haste Rating to be 1.48, and I added the Insane Strength Potion value.
#2642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
roknir
WF vs GoA

This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?

Last edited by roknir : 09/18/07 at 5:15 PM.
#2643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lunaps
Originally Posted by roknir View Post
This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?


I usually go with either WoA or GoA, but it depends on the rest of the group makeup. The one pally tank I run with usually asks for WoA.
#2644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.

I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc?

I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems.

I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search.

Thank you!
#2645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Lose all the hit gems, they are not needed. I raid with around 150-170ish, and I've heard people going even lower than that. You should get some more AP, follow the gem guide on OP for socket itemization.
#2646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
T.K.
Zertenia, the table for atks don't work that way you think.

You won't miss a chance to proc WF because of low hit. We already discussed this in here, but i'm on a rush now and can't explain it to you again. But trust us, drop hit gems, use the gems we suggest and you'll see a higher deeps.

Last edited by T.K. : 09/19/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Rushing grammar
#2647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Shwandreya, T.K,

Thanks for your replies, I was just reading through the 'combat table' and I think I figured something out... So crit hit is determined before the normanl hit on a separate probability determination... I think I have got closer to the secret! but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction! hehe.

Thank you people, I love this thread!
#2648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Zertenia View Post
but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction!
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t15648-i...yers_informed/
#2649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3fjour
Hi i am new here and i am a enhance shaman as well in Jubeithos.
however my guild does not progress so well, and i was thinking how to get more ap.
The question is anyone use or test the
Darkmoon Card:Wrath
and
Darkmoon Card:Crusade?
Which one would be more useful or better in terms of pvp and pve(raid)???
I currently standing at 130 hit rating is that enought for 25 man raid???
I ty for reply and guidance.
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
#2650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by fjour View Post
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
The least you can do before you post is read the first page (which answers your questions) and use the search function.
#2651SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by fjour View Post
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
The least you can do before you post is read the first page (which answers your questions) and use the search function.
#2652SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast.
As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little.
I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P.

Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?
By making your blues str/stam, and the yellows all 5 crit/str (assuming your guild is low on spinels like everyone else) you can gain what, 80 ap? Thats a pretty decent boost.
#2653SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Fluffiez
**EDIT** Found some Info... running my own numbers.... **EDIT**


Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage (**edit ignore this i am dumb**. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today


** EDIT 2 **

From 08/05/07, 4:02 PM Post #1101 Disquette
As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)
Soooo.... for the card only....

120 increase to AP + 80 spell damage used on OH FT:
(120 * 30% + 80sp.d) * 10% = 11.6 dmg per swing.
11.6 dmg * 86% = 9.976 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
9.976 * 1.09 = 10.87 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
10.87 * 1.1 = 11.96 (Curse of elements)
11.96 * 1.05 = 12.55 (5% spell crit rate)
12.55 * 1.15 = 14.44 (elemental weapons)

So.. 14.44 dmg/swing increase for FT.


Unless I have overlooked something... thats pretty decent.

Last edited by Fluffiez : 09/18/07 at 4:07 PM.
#2654SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Fluffiez View Post
Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today

Earth shock = 28.6% spell efficiency
Frost shock = 27.2% spell efficiency
Flame shock = 21.5% + 4.2% spell efficiency

Flametongue Imbue = 10% spell efficiency
And for finding flametongue you do:
( 35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10 )

That will tell you the damage flametongue will do per hit.
#2655SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Fluffiez View Post
**EDIT** Found some Info... running my own numbers.... **EDIT**


Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today
Flametongue procs don't proc the spell damage side of the trinket. There is a post already up about this 20ish? pages back.
#2656SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Flametongue weapon does not proc the trinket, only shocks, lightning bolts and chain lightning. If one of your shocks is resisted the spell component of the trinket expires before you can shock again. I had this trinket and it is very rare to have it stacked up to 10.
#2657SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Fluffiez
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Flametongue weapon does not proc the trinket, only shocks, lightning bolts and chain lightning. If one of your shocks is resisted the spell component of the trinket expires before you can shock again. I had this trinket and it is very rare to have it stacked up to 10.

Ahh I see that now... sorry, I was pulling info from the wow public forums (big mistake)... So getting the full 10 stack would be far more difficult (rank1 LB spam anyone... jk). I have edited my origional post based on Disquette's math from way back.

120 increase to AP + 80 spell damage used on OH FT:
(120 * 30% + 80sp.d) * 10% = 11.6 dmg per swing.
11.6 dmg * 86% = 9.976 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
9.976 * 1.09 = 10.87 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
10.87 * 1.1 = 11.96 (Curse of elements)
11.96 * 1.05 = 12.55 (5% spell crit rate)
12.55 * 1.15 = 14.44 (elemental weapons)

So.. 14.44 dmg/swing increase for FT.

and about 31-32 damage to shocks (ONLY based on spell efficiency % from a couple posts up)

Last edited by Fluffiez : 09/18/07 at 4:29 PM.
#2658SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Restrepo
Correct AEP Values for sockets?

I'm having some difficulty wrapping my head around the AEP values provided in the OP for sockets. Everybody seems to be valuing sockets at 17.6 AEP, regardless of color. My problem with this is that you can't get the same value out of a blue socket that you can out of a red or yellow socket.

If we use the best possible rare gems as a base, and use our accepted AEP values, we end up with this:

Red Socket = [Bold Living Ruby] (8 * 2.2 = 17.6 AEP)
Yellow Socket = [Inscribed Noble Topaz] (8 + (2.2 * 4) = 16.8 AEP)
Blue Socket = [Sovereign Nightseye] (4 * 2.2 = 8.8 AEP)

Now, I realize that your mileage may vary on exact AEP, some of use Use Bold Living Ruby's, and some of use [Bold Crimson Spinel]; But the overall result should remain the same. There is no gem combination that fits a blue socket that will generate as much AEP as a red or yellow socket. What am I missing here??




*****************


Afterthought - Right about the time I was finishing my typing, getting ready to hit the 'Submit' button, I remembered that there is nothing stopping me from putting a [Bold Living Ruby] in that Blue Socket. I just won't get my bonus. I've decided to post anyway, afterall, I did do some math....
#2659SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
You're not missing anything, we just assume that every socket is filled with max DPS contribution.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2660SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Restrepo View Post
There is no gem combination that fits a blue socket that will generate as much AEP as a red or yellow socket.
[Shifting Tanzanite]
#2661SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
For future reference if anyone wants to do some fancy schmancy math here, you can use some limited LaTeX markup with [latex].

Observe!
x = \frac {1-p} {2p !}
x = \frac {1-p} {2p !}

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2662SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Restrepo
Yeah, that's what I realized as I posted... Now, I'm not a BT / Hyjal level Enh Shaman. I'm a Kara Shaman. Do those of you who raid Enh at the BT / Hyjal level need to run with max contribution gems to remain competitive on DPS charts?


EDIT** [Shifting Tanzanite]

I didn't want to count this gem, Unique-Equip would make it a little hard to base general calculations around it...
#2663SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Zertenia View Post
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.

I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc?

I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems.

I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search.

Thank you!

In order to get one extra WF proc from 1% +hit it would take an average of ~300 swings to get an extra WF proc since you would be gaining 1 extra attack per 100 swings and it takes on average 3 swings (because of the 36% proc rate when DWing WF). Assuming a 2.0 weapon speed with flurry and being perma flurried (from what I've seen when running shamulator you won't be perma flurried even with 35% crit rate but we will use it for the math) it would take on average 300 seconds to get a WF proc from that +1% hit, but that could be an MH or OH proc, and then when you do get that "proc" from hitting that extra 1% of the time you have to hope that it's then not blocked by the 3 second CD. Or you could get more crit and ap and not have to worry about all of this while still increasing both your white hits and yellow hits damage.

Thats why Crit/AP>hit in a nutshell. I'm sure someone could explain it better than I can but I don't see anyone attempting to (probably because they are tired of explaining it)

__________________
#2664SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Just to keep you folks updated wit my latest project:

As I've written previously, I started a complete rewrite of my equipoptimizer in c++, since I ran into a few performance problems after adding some new functionality.

http://wowequipoptimizer.googlecode....es/weo2tp1.zip

is a Technology Preview of the next version:
  • Console only
  • No enchants
  • No relicts
  • hardcoded enh shaman
  • No on-use items modelled

Besides that, the new version is between 6-10 times faster, even in this highly pre-alpha preview version, but it already includes the new BT gems and the previously missing meta gems. Gem-handling is not yet complete though, but will be soonish.

The Technology Preview uses an external garbage collector library by Hans Boehm/HP, TinyXML and the boost libraries (heavy use of the boost libraries).

After finishing the few missing basic functions, I will have to write an UI for it, obviously it should be platform-independent. Suggestions for an UI toolkit are welcomed
(And no QT is not a choice, due to the fact that the open source version does not support MS visual c++).

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2665SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3VinnieJones
Ok, sorry to post this here but I just beat my head against the wall on the search engine and couldn't come up with anything. My second set of gear that I spec to weekly is an enhancement set for farm content and 5 man stuff.

My question is, I just got a Decapitator and I want to make sure that even with the general lack of stats other than the crit it is still better than Fool's Bane before I drop a mongoose on it? And again, sorry for having to ask this.

Also, a main hand gladiator weapon isn't a possibility for me, before anyone tells me to just grab that. It's been decided my elem spec is better for the team so my points are going towards that gear for the near future.
#2666SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Get a Gladiator weapon Vinnie.

My hunch would be that the DPS increase is better, but I would recommend that you run YOs simulator and that would tell you pretty quickly which specs out better.

BTW Hi Vin
#2667SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Guns
Originally Posted by Restrepo View Post



*****************


Afterthought - Right about the time I was finishing my typing, getting ready to hit the 'Submit' button, I remembered that there is nothing stopping me from putting a [Bold Living Ruby] in that Blue Socket. I just won't get my bonus. I've decided to post anyway, afterall, I did do some math....
On this note, the meta gem requirements for the 3% crit gem are generating a lot of stress for me... I have re socketed probably 5-6 gems in the same gear to get it to stay active and I keep finding myself dropping more 'useful' gems such as bold living rubies for nightseye. I would love to throw all rubies or maybe a few crit(+str) gems (to activate some bonuses) but I find myself compromising for the gem.

This is making me think about switching to the (pretty lame and sub-par) ap and run-speed gem. I am on my way out otherwise I would do the math, but is the 3% extra damage beneficial enough to warrant the hassle of activating it?
#2668SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aefos
I just don't get it.

/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike

/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Tranquil of Air Totem, Stormstrike

Lets do the math...

Cost of ES = 535 x .06 = 535 - 32.1(talented 6%) = 503

Windfury Totem = 325 x .75(talented) = 244 for 20% WF proc.

Cost of ES = 535 x .06 = 535 - 32.1 - = 503 (6% from talents) I know the math is funky.

GOA 310 mana x .75(talented) = 232 mana for 88 agility talented.

TOA .06% base mana x .75(talented) = (Can't log in ***** baggers) for 20% threat reduction.

All I am saying is that the crying over the "high" mana cost is pretty stupid which is usually coming from someone who is spamming SS and both shocks when they are up.

If the cost of the GOA totem and TOA totem + WF totem are a lot higher then the cost of a single shock that is fine. I don't have the math on ToA but lets use WF + GOA...

WF 224 mana + GOA 232 mana = 456 mana. That is LESS then the cost of one ES and I can almost guarantee that TOA will cost roughly the same. You just gave your group an extra 20% threat reduction (14% if you already have salvation) or 88 agility at the sacrafice of 1 shock every 10-12 seconds which can easily be resisted by a mob that has a base resist chance of 17% against us.

Using math some more (When you are using max damage rotations) which I am messy at...

ES math 17% chance to resist = 3% from talents = 14% resist rate (not counting partials because all bosses have a base resistance to every school of magic that are above our level I am going to the bar I will add that in later) that gives you 1 shock every 12 seconds (one of your shocks is likely to hit a global cooldown but I will give you the bene) for 658 to 692 Nature damage averaging 675 damage at a 5% chance to do double damage which = 709 damage over 12 seconds. Then factor in 14% resist rate = This turns into 610 damage every 12 seconds. THAT OMG this is getting epic! turns into 50 dps when divided by 12 seconds.

Moving on

hmmm give my ENTIRE group 14% threat reduction or 88 agility (not doing the math on agi... too many class differences) at the cost of 50 dps... And you might not even be able to use your shocks because the boss does not allow it, such as SSC and nature resist.

Can someone help me redo the math so it looks cleaner? I can do it in my head and with a calc but typing it out is a B. I will try to redo it after I had a few beers then it will look epic even then some!



This is mainly to get people to see that if you are going to spam... spam totem twisting and help out the raid
#2669SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
1 Shock every 12 seconds? I dunno about you, but my cooldown says 6 seconds. Interlacing ES and FS is a lot more DPS than what you've just accounted for.

As far as the "crying" and "omg this is epic" statements, leave that crap elsewhere please.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2670SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
One thing to add to the calculations, minor though it may be, is that with Twisting you not only lose the mana costs of the totems, but you reset the global cooldown one additional tick. It's only 40 mana or so, but if you're calculating it out, why not.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2671SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
*shrug* I totem twist a lot as well and it really does cost less mana by itself than shocking. I also tend to throw in an earth shock just before I stormstrike (since stormstrike has been used by then), and if I am getting low on mana for some weird reason I can just stop shocking or stop twisting. His complaint is that people are using "but it costs so much mana!" as an excuse not to totem twist, when really, it costs less. If it's less personal dps, that's a different (and much more valid) excuse to use.
#2672SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
My Earth Shock averages 785 damage (other classes sometimes eat SS charges) while my Flame shock averages 473 on the initial hit and ticks for 132 on average. So assuming a max damage rotation thats (785+473+(132*4))/12=148.83 repeating DPS. Then lets factor in SS damage since it's also part of the damage rotation and depending on the shaman could also have to be given up for totem twisting. I average 307 per hit or 614 for damage (since the average counts in both MH and OH hits). Now divide that by 10 and you get 61.4 DPS from that for a total DPS gain of 210.23333 at a cost of 535+500+250=1285mana per 12 seconds or 107.08 mana per second untalented. The cost is probably slightly off because I forget how much SS costs untalented and I'm currently not logged in. Also this DPS doesn't include resists or crits.

Now the cost of Totem Twisting is 325+310=635mana over 10 seconds, or 63.5 mana per second untalented. Granted most people take -25% to totem costs, but since I didn't include Mental Quickness or Convection in the other rotation I didn't think it fair to include the cost reducing talents here.

Of course these numbers are all hypothetical and ignore lag and the GCD which I'm sure you would run into. Given GCD and lag both numbers would go down slightly you would end up with WF sometimes falling off of people's weapons (even moreso on mobile fights where you might not be able to lay the totem when you need to to refresh it). Also I highly doubt you could sustain either of these at their max potential w/o JoW and BoW in addition to SR since the SS+shock rotation would eat up 38548 mana in a 6 minute fight, and Totem Twisting would eat up 22860 mana in a 6 minute fight.

Another thing is that I would lose 20% of my damage if I cut out the SS and shock rotation (would be more if i would remember to cast FS more). Also if you try to add in dps moves to totem twisting then you start having to juggle even more GCDs and start eating up more mana (assuming 250 mana for SS, adding just it into the 6 minute fight ups the total mana spent to 31860), and once the AP to Spell Power change goes live you will be losing even more DPS.

So in short, yes it can be good if you can support the mana that it costs, but your going to be either giving up a good chunk of DPS to do this, or have a pally keep JoW on the mob at all times (and you will be juggling GCDs and timers)

__________________
#2673SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3flipcanon
on totem twisting
if you are totem twisting you would losing an opportunity to chug a health/shrouding potion that would either save you in a tight aoe situation or make you lose dps due to being at the aggro roof more due to the fact that you need to constantly drink mana potions to maintain totem twisting unless your mana regen/total intelect/ap counterproductively high
#2674SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I need to make sure that I've got a multiplier in a calculation correct - which raid debuffs affect Earthshock damage?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2675SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I need to make sure that I've got a multiplier in a calculation correct - which raid debuffs affect Earthshock damage?
Misery: 5%
Stormstrike: 20% 2 charges of course
NIGHTFALL: 15% for 5 sec, roughly 2PPM.

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:27 AM.
#2676SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:25 AM.
#2677SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I was nothing if not comprehensive.


VVV Yeah I wasn't being serious at all. VVVV

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:29 AM.
#2678SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
I understand that, nothing against you. I'm just trying to make sure we get things as accurate as we can.
#2679SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
Oddly enough, endgame guilds on our server use Nightfall on certain boss fights. I've read around the WoW forums that other guilds use it to. Read some applications to endgame guilds from warriors and paladins some time, some say "I am willing to swing Nightfall if that's what helps the raid out.".

Crazy, I know.
#2680SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Sticky keys
#2681SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
#2682SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
I've been under this impression for some time, but, then again, I could be wrong, too. (Lots of comas, w00t!)
#2683SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Added procs of the following trinkets:
+ Dragonspine Trophy
+ Ashtongue Talisman
+ Madness of the Betrayer
+ Hourglass of the Unraveller
+ Tsunami Talisman
Remember to add their static bonuses manually
Added procs granted by 4 pieces of the following sets:
+ T 3.5 (+160 AP for 15 sec)
+ T 4
+ T5
+ T6
+ PVP (-1s SS cooldown)
#2684SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yakout
Yo!,

Is there any hope of getting Flametongue Weapon support (along with necessary accompaniments like Spell Damage) at some far-off point in the future? Either as a serious point of inquiry, or at least as a means of demonstrating empirically to lazy skeptics that WF/WF is better?

(Again, request for when more useful stuff is all done, at some point in the future.)
#2685SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.
We use one on our OT for fights like lurker. Not like he can do anything usefull otherwise anyway.
#2686SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
#2687SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
#2688SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
There is data a few pages back with some one that used DS-MH/Syphon-OH then daul Syphons. Broken down in to dps and how much increase/decrease it was. Might be 10+ pages ago.
#2689SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
if i had the time i would, i work 9 hours a day, raid for 5 hours as soon as i get home 5days a week, then spend time with the wife etc.

all i can really do is switch weapons during trash and see how big my wfs are, but i wont be able to really count numbers how much wfs my mh gets, vice versa, and even loading these data addons. il play around with that sim, doesnt seem to be what im looking for though
#2690SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I pulled it out because it was inconclusive, one test said Syphon was best MH, the other said Rising Tide was.

You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
#2691SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
#2692SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
#2693SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
I think moral here is that Dragonstrike, the Syphon and Rising Tide are all really good. The tests I've seen (both empirical and simulated) imply that there isn't a heckuva lot of difference either way, so just use the ones you want and don't break the DKP bank for one of the three if you already have the other two.

Dragonstrike is going to get nerfed with the next patch, so I say main hand it while it's still worth it.

There might be a secondary moral about how the constraints of your chosen lifestyle don't induce imperative on others, but considering my chosen lifestyle is trolling forums, I should probably just clam up. Also, that "English Jerks forum" comment was damn funny.
#2694SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
#2695SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Silmeria
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
Correct.
#2696SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
http://elitistjerks.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

Put some effort into your posts. Don't spam, don't type mindless drivel and hit Post without hesitating — this isn't a chat room. Do take a moment to look over your post before you hit post. I recognize that many posters here don't speak English as their first language, and that's obviously understood and respected. Usually those posters make more comprehensible and well-constructed posts than so-called native speakers. If your post is riddled with typos and grammatical errors, we're going to assume you're an idiot with nothing worthwhile to contribute, so you're wasting your time by posting. You will be warned and banned if your posts, by virtue of their incoherence, consistently contribute nothing to discussions in which they appear.
Emphasis added.
#2697SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aefos
I was not trying to direct the QQ comment about twisting sorry if I sounded like that. Most people I talk to in game QQ about it when asked not you guys it was just a general statement.

As of the 12 seconds you do 1 ES then 6 seconds later you do 1 FS that is 12 seconds between each ES and that isn't even counting if you catch a global here and there. I was mainly stating that you can drop ES out of your SS / FS / ES rotation and losing one shock out of the 3 rotation you can replace it with totem twisting which IMO GREATLY out weighs the dps from the shock. Let alone the debuffs that could be used on someone else IE if your guild has an bird I can guarantee he will offer lap dances to any enhancement shaman who doesn't use ES on his rotations.
#2698SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I have it on my weaponswap macro and throw it on when it looks like i'm going to pull aggro. No point in stopping my dps completely, and the buff really helps since we tend to run caster heavy.
#2699SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Hmm, that's an interesting strat, drats -- I suppose you'd want to avoid those nasty 2H WF procs; do you use any imbues at all?

I now know of three or four weapon/inbue swap macros for decreasing threat -- swapping for a weapon and shield (for the additional defense should aggro be pulled), swapping in fast daggers (to keep up UR), downranking Windfury and now whipping out Nightfall. All of these seem more useful than simple turning off auto-attack -- anybody else got a weapon swap strategy?
#2700SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
The WF procs aren't really a problem since max damage for nightfall is so small. I prefer to keep WF on the nightfall, since the added hits increase the proc rate.
#2751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dzer
What do people think about enhance shaman cape choices?
Cape of darkreavers or vengeance wrap?

we've killed teron maybe 15times and never dropped the cape :/
#2752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Right now i'm using darkreavers, but my goal is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].

I've heard good things about the cape that Moroes drops... [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings]
#2753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dzer
yes i am using darkreavers as well, vengeance wrap is easily crafted tho and provides;
72ap 23crit 2hit (with epic gem)
vs
34ap 24agi(crit) 17hit

its a shame to loose the stamina tho
#2754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Malan -- in your "Why 2H isn't viable" section, you neglected to mention that dual wielding with two WF imbues raises the WF proc chance to 36% for either weapon, which is another good reason to dual wield.
#2755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Malan: You write this in the trinket section:
[Madness of the Betrayer] 113.6 AEP from stats. Using 2.4 ppm (see here) the uptime is 40% giving a passive -100 Armor, valued at 0.25 AEP = 30 AEP. Total value is 143.6 AEP.
Would be good to correct "-100" to "-120". 120x0.25=30
#2756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Gotcha, thanks!
<---- See my custom title for explanation.

Also added a small note in the 2H weapon area about the 36% proc rate.
#2757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
I'm using a [Cloak of the Inciter] right now. Better than the Moroes cloak I feel, but worse than Dark Reavers. Probably going to get the VE craftable cape come the patch, since that'll be a Vengeance Wrap with Stamina.

As to weapon drop rates, we've seen a silly amount of Tides drop, and only 2-3 syphons. I got priority on the Syphons since it's our end game combo, while rogues have the Kael Mace and any number of swords and daggers; same for warriors.
#2758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
I kick myself for trashing my cloak of the inciter after I got the cloak off of Moroes (which i still use and think is trash). This was before I learned about the AEP values and was still full resto.

I'm just going to craft a Vengeance Wrap and deal with the sta loss for most fights and swap it out where were appropriate.

Same thing I do with my Celestial Archer bracers and my backup pair.

P.S. Malan I resocketed the one hit gem I had. Of course it cost me a ruby and a topaz to do it as I forgot about my RED requirement. So you owe me 70g
#2759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Edit - btw, just how common of a drop is the Syphon and the Rising Tide? Every shaman in BT seems to have 2 Syphons and a Tide to play with.
I'm pretty sure it's just due to luck and the fact that Najen'tus and Supremus are the first two bosses in the zone. We've had 2 Syphons and 1 Tide drop after 100 years of killing the zone, it's all tankadin boots and frog hand shoulders.
#2760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
My guild's only killed Doomwalker once (nobody wants to get a raid together for it outside of just to say we killed him), and I lost his cloak to a hunter. :/

I have these as the top few enhancement cloaks for us though according to the values I use (included extras past top 5 for reference as to how far down each was):

[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (148 - Gorefiend)
[Thalassian Wildercloak] (126 - Kael'Thas)
[Black-Iron Battlecloak] (120 with no extra stats like stam - Doomwalker)
[Razor-Scale Battlecloak] (117 - Morogrim) <- I use this currently
[Vengeance Wrap] (114 - BoE from a world drop recipe)
[Cloak of the Pit Stalker] (109 - Magtheridon)
[Drape of the Dark Reavers] (107 - Aran)
[Blood Knight War Cloak] (96.1 - Heroic Badges)
[Cloak of the Inciter] (91.4 - Inciter from SL)

With [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings] from Moroes way down the list at 83.2.
#2761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
As to weapon drop rates, we've seen a silly amount of Tides drop, and only 2-3 syphons. I got priority on the Syphons since it's our end game combo, while rogues have the Kael Mace and any number of swords and daggers; same for warriors.
We have been killing supremus and najentus for 3 and a half months and have seen 1 Tide and 2 Syphons, luckily for me I got the priority on Syphons.

A slightly off topic whine is the loot available from Najentus and supremus, 14 and 13 available items respectively from bosses that drop 2 items max, it just seems stupid to have so many possible variances from bosses who only drop 2 items. Come to think of it all the bosses drop 12-15 items and only 2 at once, makes it so you can end up with the same shit everyweek.

We have had the same shitty pala healing chest for the last 3 or 4 weeks, each week being taken as incase it gets improved.

End rant, sorry for the OT.
#2762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Well at least loot table is increasing it from 2 to 3. Or is that only for SSC/TK bosses?

Regardless, Shamans in most scenarios will have priority on syphons. Seeing as how we benefit most from dual wielding them.
#2763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Vengeance Wrap is great considering how simple it is to get. Given my guild's progress, I put the PvP award gem in it...I won't be trading it in until Lich King.

Big fan of Shard Bound Bracers for the same reason.
#2764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krish
Malan and Rob,

One item worth adding to the list of weapons for orcs: Netherbane - Items - World of Warcraft . As you probably know, it's getting a buff in 2.2 as well, and certainly seems better than one or two of the lower items on your existing list.
#2765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Edit - wait, that's pretty much covered. There's better MHs than Netherbane and the OH section is a list of available OHs from outside of SSC/TK.
#2766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Thank you for the test. My sim is not assigning dps value to trinket directly - it is a real simulation in that it runs step-by-step just like in game though much faster (Hours value represent it). Your uptime values are "plain ones" - if you are using "uptime" you have to include cross-interactions between game mechanics. Did you include flurry, mongoose, winfurry, SS to come up with those uptimes? How did you account for interactions between theese mechanics? Anything that affects speed will affect uptime. Furthermore - benefit of this uptime will be different for each stat combo. This is exactly what sim solves - shows benefit for your gear with your set of procs.

EDIT: Regarding DST - sim uses post 2.2 value of haste raitng but pre 2.2 value for ppm. I did not see new ppm values for all the trinkets yet.

EDIT: Regarding Hourglass and TT - it procs on crits only!
The uptimes I'm using are what has been observed by testing in game, so yes all those other interactions are taken into account. The uptimes are also almost certainly a little inflated since they've been tested against lower level mobs which means the difference between the sim and reality is even larger than my testing would show.

It would be very useful if on your stats page you also reported uptime on the various procs that are being modeled. That would make it easy to see if something were either up too much or not enough according to the sim.

One thing to keep in mind on the hourglass and TT is that 0.9 ppm is the observed proc rate, meaning it already takes into account that it can only proc on crits.

Edit: Thinking more on the hourglass and TT you should be able to just model them since I believe we know how they function internally. According to the spell details they're both a 10% chance on any crit (outside of the observed 45s cooldown on the proc).

Last edited by Morelis : 09/20/07 at 2:22 PM.
#2767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
From what I've read, Syphon is one of Supremus' most frequent drops.

So obviously, I'm pretty psyched that soon I may have them.

-Edit- I had read that the syphon effect was amplified by warlock and shadow priest debuffs, yet in your SS it shows it being a stable 20. Are these rumors not true? Or were your casters targeting something else?

I haven't seen it once in 2 months. Loot is random. Heh.
#2768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Krish View Post
Malan and Rob,

One item worth adding to the list of weapons for orcs: Netherbane - Items - World of Warcraft . As you probably know, it's getting a buff in 2.2 as well, and certainly seems better than one or two of the lower items on your existing list.
It's a good point that Netherbane, Talon of the Phoenix, and Rod of the Sun King are getting buffed in 2.2. But my list only covers the most commonly asked questions, and we don't usually see any questions about these weapons. (Talons tend to go to rogues and Rod of the Sun King has a proc that only rogues and warriors can take advantage of.) Netherbane would certainly be a good addition to the list for orcs -- preferable to a Black Planar Edge or a Dragonstrike* -- but an MG Cleaver is still equivalent for orcs and an MG Pummeler is still preferable for non-orcs.


* Pending further data on Dragonstrike proc uptime, and even with a 40% uptime = 5% passive haste I still feel 3% hit + ~1% crit + some AP on the Netherbane and/or the MG Cleaver is very comparable.
#2769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krish
Malan and Rob,

I agree that the Netherbane and MG Cleaver are almost identical. For many of the Orc Shaman who either don't have 2625 Arena Points to grab one, or 5250 to grab two, and may have acquired or have access to a Netherbane, it seems worth mentioning. If one were to read that list of preferred MH weapons, you would currently get the impression that Black Planar Edge, Dragonstrike, and MG Pummeler were all better choices than the Netherbane for a MH. To my understanding, this is a false impression, and seems worthy of rectifying for those who are using that first post as a basis for their gear considerations (I know I did, and it has been a tremendous help).
#2770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Those weapons *are* better for the Main Hand. When I picked up a Netherbane I put it in my OH and moved my Gladiator weapon to my MH. I'll be using my Gladiator until I get into BT.
#2771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
The uptimes I'm using are what has been observed by testing in game, so yes all those other interactions are taken into account. The uptimes are also almost certainly a little inflated since they've been tested against lower level mobs which means the difference between the sim and reality is even larger than my testing would show.

It would be very useful if on your stats page you also reported uptime on the various procs that are being modeled. That would make it easy to see if something were either up too much or not enough according to the sim.

One thing to keep in mind on the hourglass and TT is that 0.9 ppm is the observed proc rate, meaning it already takes into account that it can only proc on crits.

Edit: Thinking more on the hourglass and TT you should be able to just model them since I believe we know how they function internally. According to the spell details they're both a 10% chance on any crit (outside of the observed 45s cooldown on the proc).
How much crit observers had? How many attacks were hasted by Flurry resulting in more hits resulting in more procs? Did they SS on cooldown or not (for "clean" testing)? Same goes with windfury - testers switch it off so that special attacks do not increase "base" ppm that they want to find. How about mongoose - was it on? How about raid buffs that testers had NOT on and you selected for the sim? Plug this info (their stats and what mechanics they used while performing the test) into sim and than we can compare the results. I prefer ppm concept over uptime because uptime depends on stats while ppm does not.
Thank you for suggesstion of procs uptime to be displayed - I will do that.
I will also change Hourglass and TT since they were modelled using 0.9 ppm on crits indeed.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/20/07 at 3:54 PM.
#2772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
I'd be interested to hear your opinions on which is the better setup (A or B). I'm about two weeks away from earning the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver and am pondering whether to MH or OH it, given the other two weapons I have. I'm inclined to go with Setup-B, but I find myself wondering how much difference there might be between the two .. given the discrepancy in DPS, the contribution of MH versus OH, and orc racials. I'll probably run some comparison tests, just for fun, but until then .. what do you think?

Current Setup
Big Bad Wolf's Paw – MH Only
The Harvester of Souls – 1H

Potential Setup A
Big Bad Wolf's Paw – MH Only
Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver – 1H

Potential Setup B
Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver – 1H
The Harvester of Souls – 1H

I tried running Yo's simulator, but unfortunately, I was unable to load it.

Thank you!
#2773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
It would be appropriate to link your Armory profile since any answer to that question would depend on how much AP you have from gear.
#2774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
As requested...

The Armory - Delenda
#2775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Yo's sim predicts setup B to be the superior option.
#2776SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Yo's sim predicts setup B to be the superior option.
#2777SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
Thanks for running that for me! I'm not sure why I wasn't able to run it myself .. tried IE and Mozilla .. on two different computers. It's entirely likely that I'm just being a nub, though.
#2778SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Try installing Java from this link, it helped me.
Yo's post
#2779SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
My guild's only killed Doomwalker once (nobody wants to get a raid together for it outside of just to say we killed him), and I lost his cloak to a hunter. :/

I have these as the top few enhancement cloaks for us though according to the values I use (included extras past top 5 for reference as to how far down each was):

[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (148 - Gorefiend)
[Thalassian Wildercloak] (126 - Kael'Thas)
[Black-Iron Battlecloak] (120 with no extra stats like stam - Doomwalker)
[Razor-Scale Battlecloak] (117 - Morogrim) <- I use this currently
[Vengeance Wrap] (114 - BoE from a world drop recipe)
[Cloak of the Pit Stalker] (109 - Magtheridon)
[Drape of the Dark Reavers] (107 - Aran)
[Blood Knight War Cloak] (96.1 - Heroic Badges)
[Cloak of the Inciter] (91.4 - Inciter from SL)

With [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings] from Moroes way down the list at 83.2.
Regarding cloaks, has anyone looked at the http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...wvioleteye.jpg
Cloak of Darkness?

I couldn't check the PTR at the moment for it, so I can't verify if it's legit or not. But if it is, it looks like a pretty good cloak considering the mats?

With a Bold Living Ruby you're looking at 31 strength, 25 sta, 24 crit rating. Seems like a very nice cloak for anyone pre-MH\BT.
#2780SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Try installing Java from this link, it helped me.
Yo's post

You get a gold star for the day. That worked like a champ .. thanks!
#2781SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
The Violet Eye cloak is what Shabadu was referencing a couple posts ago.

What a royal PITA getting a LW 4 nethers though. Other mats are fairly reasonable, but the nethers suck. I was all set to craft a Vengeance Wrap, but may just hold out for this come Tuesday.
#2782SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vim
I started out as enhancement and went to resto to help my guild progress into SSC (Yeah, back when it was "OMG I need more +hit!!"). I understand that an enhancement shaman is very nice to have the farther into endgame you get, so I was looking around for the best gear to have. I have picked up a lot of what I thought was good enhancement gear, but according to lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character none of the t4 etc gear I have is worth crap. Is this AEP chart correct. Is fel leather gloves really better than my t4 /cry?

On another note, haveing a faster OH gimps my DPS by stealing more WF procs, so Is my runic hammer any good, or should I ditch it for a blue that is slower?
#2783SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
AEP values are roughly correct, fel leather gloves are insanly good in terms of pure dps yes.

Your second question is very clearly answered in the OP.
#2784SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
The Fel leather items are good, sure. But wearing all of them at once would be like a priest wearing the entire Primal Moon Cloth set all at once - you'd be unlikely to survive any of the AoE effects in SSC and TK. Stamina may not improve DPS directly, but I'd sure as hell not take more than 1-2 items that had none.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2785SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Akkron
I've been running some tests to try and figure out what the best two endgame trinkets to shoot for would be. I have access to both Dragonspine and Tsunami Talisman at the moment. I plan on having Ashtongue as one of these for sure in the future, but for now I would like to just acquire one of these two trinkets.

So far it seems like Dragonspine would win over over the Tsunami Talisman, and from what I've seen of how some of our DPS'ers damage has scaled once they aquired a Trophy, it seems quite effective.

However I have one question, does anyone know if Yo's calculator uses the current haste rating value for Dragonspine Trophy, or 2.2's haste values?

*BTW I would like to thank everyone here for all the hard work they have put into discussing and discovering so much about our class. This thread has been a great guide to improving my dps. :-)

Last edited by Akkron : 09/21/07 at 12:02 AM.
#2786SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
He uses 2.2 values for his sim.
#2787SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Akkron
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
He uses 2.2 values for his sim.
Seems like Dragonspine just wins hands down at least by the values on the sim. I don't know how accurate it is, not much of a way to test it in game until I get a trinket :-P

Has anyone run some comparisons on the two trinkets in game? Would be very intested to hear if anyone has compared them or has a personal opinion on which trinket is better.

Last edited by Akkron : 09/21/07 at 12:01 AM.
#2788SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Akkron View Post
Seems like Dragonspine just wins hands down at least by the values on the sim. I don't know how accurate it is, not much of a way to test it in game until I get a trinket :-P

Has anyone run some comparisons on the two trinkets in game? Would be very intested to hear if anyone has compared them or has a personal opinion on which trinket is better.

Thanks,
~ Akkron
Thats exactly what the sim is for, so you dont have to get every possible combination and test it out ingame. If the sim says DST is better, it is.

Also, I managed to refrain mysef in your previous post, but now you'r asking for it : STOP SIGNING YOUR POSTS
#2789SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Akkron
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Thats exactly what the sim is for, so you dont have to get every possible combination and test it out ingame. If the sim says DST is better, it is.

Also, I managed to refrain mysef in your previous post, but now you'r asking for it : STOP SIGNING YOUR POSTS
Sorry haha, I'll go ahead and edit those out. Thanks for letting me know, I'm in the habit of signing my forum posts.

Going to cross my fingers for a DST to drop this weekend when we hit up Gruul, been nearly 2 months since we've seen one.
#2790SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Xoya
Originally Posted by Akkron View Post
Going to cross my fingers for a DST to drop this weekend when we hit up Gruul, been nearly 2 months since we've seen one.
Speaking of which, I just helped put together a pug Gruul's Lair run, and it dropped, and I won! Holy crap I can't begin to explain how excited I am right now. What are the odds? Like 7 people rolled, hah.

Just to clarify, the best possible combination for endgame trinkets is currently Ashtongue Talisman of Vision + Madness of the Betrayer, possibly replacing the latter with DST if you don't get a Madness to drop, correct?

Last edited by Xoya : 09/21/07 at 3:17 AM. Reason: Spelling
#2791SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Akkron
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Speaking of which, I just helped put together a pug Gruul's Lair run, and it dropped, and I won! Holy crap I can't begin to explain how excited I am right now. What are the odds? Like 7 people rolled, hah.

Just to clarify, the best possible combination for endgame trinkets is currently Ashtongue Talisman of Vision + Madness of the Betrayer, possibly replacing the latter with DST if you don't get a Madness to drop, correct?
Hmm I seem to be getting better numbers after a certain amount of base AP/Crit is obtained with the Dragonspine than with Madness.

I honestly believe that maybe the Dragonspine is still better. The reason being typically about 50% of our DPS is white and once your base stats hit a certain point, those extra attacks you get from the haste rating outweigh the armor penetration proc on Madness.

I could be wrong though. But it does make sense that the Dragonspine would scale up as the rest of your gear scaled up whereas other trinkets provide a more static increase.
#2792SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ ikillyouheal
I've recently starting leveling a shaman, planning on raiding as enhancement.

One thought struck me while looking at specs, what if you specced for Elemental Devestation( Your offensive spell crits will increase your chance to get a critical strike with melee attacks by 9% for 10 sec.) ?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Assuming an unbuffed spellcrit of 7%, adding a ret-paladin for 3% additional crit and Winter's Chill for an extra 10% Frost Crit (Assuming you're not capped by the threat), you would reach 20% spellcrit while Frost Shocking.

Using a shock every 5 sec with 20% crit would result in a 40% uptime of Elemental Devestation? Someone who is a bit better on math could perhaps elaborate this thought.

__________________
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
#2793SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
If you'd read most of the posts you'd find that most Enhancement shaman spec into Resto for the sheer viability, utility, and versatility. +3% hit, faster reincarnations, cheaper totems, and 30 yard range totem effects of note. In the end whether you go Ele or Enhance is up to you, however most Shaman found that the bonus dmg you receive from Ele tends to be outweighed by the benefits from Resto.

__________________
[Raid] [Aslowfatboy]: when I pvp, I roll my forehead across my keyboard and the entire battleground dies
#2794SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal View Post
Assuming an unbuffed spellcrit of 7%, adding a ret-paladin for 3% additional crit and Winter's Chill for an extra 10% Frost Crit (Assuming you're not capped by the threat), you would reach 20% spellcrit while Frost Shocking.
I laughed while reading this and consequently had to explain why to my fiancee, who didn't find this nearly as amusing as I did.

If you weren't threat capped to begin with (unlikely) you sure as hell would be when you started frost shocking.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2795SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Ok, i've got a big upgrade yesterday in tempest keep (loot pinata leggings, trash bracers and solarian boots), and i was wondering what to up for now.

Cause i'm still kind of confused if i have enough hit rating for these stats.
#2796SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Mextro View Post
i was wondering what to up for now.
You're going to need to explain that one.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2797SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Well in a way of stats, do i need to keep upping attack power, or do i need more hit for the current gear i have?
#2798SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal View Post
I've recently starting leveling a shaman, planning on raiding as enhancement.
Using a shock every 5 sec with 20% crit would result in a 40% uptime of Elemental Devestation? Someone who is a bit better on math could perhaps elaborate this thought.
just for your math, the logical failure of your idea was explained previously.

the probability to crit with two shocks and 20% crit is 1-(1-0.2)² = 0.36, so you would be expecting a 36% uptime.

As for now elemental devastation is crap, especially since you can't use frostshock anyway.

In a far, far away future we might reconsider it, if and only if flametongue/frostbrand can proc it and those ap->spelldmg changes will be integrated. Then it might be possible to dual wield flametongue with ultrafast daggers and 15+ hits (incl. flameshock) in 10s to achieve an >80% uptime with 10% crit. This is purely theoretical though.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/21/07 at 8:45 AM.
#2799SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
The Violet Eye cloak is what Shabadu was referencing a couple posts ago.

What a royal PITA getting a LW 4 nethers though. Other mats are fairly reasonable, but the nethers suck. I was all set to craft a Vengeance Wrap, but may just hold out for this come Tuesday.
My bad that I missed that reference.

I just took up BS next to LW and after getting 8 nethers for my Dragonmaw I dont think it'll be that hard to get 4 more

It's an excellent cloak for someone who has cleared Kara and is just starting off in SSC\TK though, which is why I think it should be considered like the other cloaks.

Most likely if you're at that level you're running a few heroics while not raiding, so for a cloak you wont upgrade until you've killed KT, it's definetly worth getting those four nethers.
#2800SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Heh. I have been a bored 70 for quite some time now and while my guild only raids 3 nights per week i still don't find myself ever inside of a heroic. It was painful enough running Heroic Mana Tombs 21 times to get the totem.
#1726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
As for the correctness of models/sims. As previously stated my model is correct with a 5% error margin. Depending on gear and buffs the results of fights against the blasted lands mobs are around 5% higher than my model, but that is because you don't miss that mob at all etc.
Not sure how/why I missed this earlier. Nice job on that TH :-)
#1727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Toots Hepcat
Malan et al:

I believe gear levels -- when you're only talking about gear -- should always be stated unbuffed, even if sims are run with buffs considered. Talking about buffed gear is what leads to the "How do U get 2xxx AP" questions; a newcomer never knows if those numbers only include raid buffs (and which buffs) or buffs/food/some wierd combination of procs. Besides, buffs at the Kara and heroic level are hard to predict. You'll often have a warrior or a feral druid but rarely both, and a grab bag of paladin buffs.

My gear had evolved a lot since I came up to 70 with 1.8s weapons, 900 AP, 0 HR and nearly 30% crit. When I read about hit tables, I revised my gear to have 1.6s weapons, 1000 AP, 110 HR, and about 22% crit and was shocked to see my damage go down. Revising my gear AGAIN thanks to the theorycraft (and a few pieces of Kara gear), I'm now at 1200 AP, 135 HR and 26% crit and doing top five dps in raids.

I've actually been considering writing up a Wowwiki page on preparing an endgame shaman for maximum effectiveness in heroics and Karazhan: what quests to do, what instances to run and what rep to farm. There's some surprisingly good stuff to be had with minimal effort...last night I did a pair of easy group quests in Netherstorm and walked out with 2 rings with the same AEP as the Kara exalted ring.

Suggestion: at this gear level, the AEP for slots may be lower than it is for 25 man gear. It seems silly to socket epic gems in a pair of leggings that will surely be replaced within the month; a waste of gold which could be invested in 'chants, potions, primals and crafting better gear.

Finally, a question: how much emphasis should be placed on weapon DPS when plotting upgrades, e.g. how much AEP loss is an additional 10 dps on worth? MH vs OH? Forgive me if it's been discussed to death, I've had bad luck picking keywords on searches w/r to this issue.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 08/22/07 at 4:53 PM.
#1728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Finally, a question: how much emphasis should be placed on weapon DPS when plotting upgrades, e.g. how much AEP loss is an additional 10 dps on worth? MH vs OH? Forgive me if it's been discussed to death, I've had bad luck picking keywords on searches w/r to this issue.
While I don't know the exact answer to this, consider that in some sim runs, AP had a fairly constant 1AP = 0.25 dps effect.

I will not at all stand behind that comment, because:

a) it's from memory
b) the sim was a bit old
c) i never checked it against raising the weapon damage to see how much it'd take to get to the same dps.


Since tornhoof's model is accurate within 5% of game data, he should be able to tell you better than anyone else how much it's worth.
#1729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by everwatch View Post
I have a question about the concept of using Item Levels for comparisons against AP Equivalency formulas. Does anyone know how Blizzard spends the item budget? Meaning how many points = Stamina, Armor, Int, AP, etc...? If so you could easily deduct those point from the Ilvl budget and then compare the dps ilvl points vs. a AEP right? I mean, I have no idea how efficiently Blizz spends the points, or if it would match up. But it seems to me that you could form a baseline for comparison.
The link I posted to wowwiki would've answered it for you but anyway.
Confirmed by a presentation at Blizzcon: Blizzard uses a formula to calculate item level from the items stats. The real formula as far as I know is only known by Blizzard.

Rather then deducting Enhancer will sum those costs but only for certain stats (same ones used in the AEP models pretty much) and come up with how many Itemization Points was spent into "usefull" stats and then show it in tooltips. It's not true Itemization Points but when comparing two numbers for the same slot they are atleast relative to eachother assuming the reverse-engineering of the formula is correct .

Not sure how you mean you would compare those points with AEP?
Edit: I should refresh the page before posting when I hit reply and go watch Tintin with the daughter since Yo! allready answered you.
#1730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
It is not a Cobb-Douglas multiplicative function because of cross-dependencies such as Disquette posted and special game mechanics. Try to fit UR upkeep time and flurry into the formula and do not forget that you can not use averages - you need to use their specific random distribution instead, because of Mean of f(x,y) is not equal f(Mx,My). Non static speed is hardest to include probably alongside with ppm items with hidden cooldowns. This is something that Tornhoof is doing and he is stuck with these effects as far as I know. However, if You manage to get the formula - that would be godly.
Well, its not supposed to precisely describe reality, but to approximate it. Same thing could be said about the Gross Domestic Product, and yet Robert Solow won a nobel prize in economics for that (and, to be honest, was precisely my inspiration here.)

In any case, and in reply to Tornhoof's thoughtful post:
where the data comes from is of secondary importance, and it might well be that it is easier to simply pick out numbers from your excellent model. My point was precisely that it is possible, using regression, to come to a non linear that might not be extremely precise but will be close enough so that people can plug in their current values and figure out for themselves what marginal improvement to their gear will yield the best dps increase without having to run an enourmous amount of sims. But enough on my part. Im going to play around with your model and Tristan's (again, many thanks) addon and come back (time permitting, as my job is time consuming - perhaps I will convince the dean that I should teach a class on WoW and then he will give me all the resources and RAs to run with this) with something more concrete.
#1731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
I believe gear levels -- when you're only talking about gear -- should always be stated unbuffed, even if sims are run with buffs considered.
Have to say I agree very much with this. Trying to find my buffed values outside of a raid usually means I have to beg every class in Shattrath to buff me no I don't raid much atm.

Stating values as totally unbuffed and then adding the appropriate buffs in the simulation would be much much better in my opinion.
#1732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
This is something that Tornhoof is doing and he is stuck with these effects as far as I know. However, if You manage to get the formula - that would be godly.
Yeh closed form flurry expressions are the problem, the only way to properly do this is imho a higher order markov chain for a full weapon model. UR is not that great a factor, we're talking 99%+ uptime anyway. Flurry uptime difference is larger, my current model has an error margin for flurry of 0-10%, highly dependent on gear and procs.
#1733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
Well, its not supposed to precisely describe reality, but to approximate it. Same thing could be said about the Gross Domestic Product, and yet Robert Solow won a nobel prize in economics for that (and, to be honest, was precisely my inspiration here.)

where the data comes from is of secondary importance, and it might well be that it is easier to simply pick out numbers from your excellent model
There is some serious flaw in your idea from the start.
Building a model from data generated by another model will never give you the better model. At best you are going to replicate Toornhoof's formula with such aproach.
You can build better model by combining better math skills and correctly parsed in-game data. If you are going to research "How Cobb-Douglas multiplicative function can help simulating Shaman's DPS function" I have to discourage you - Toornhoof's formula is better from the start because it is not limited to that specific class of functions. And you won't get Noble Prize - no economy here, only math.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/22/07 at 6:36 PM.
#1734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Boro
A quick question on Totems and groups and although I have been a reader of this thread and others, I am not sure of the answer to this question. Even in practice it seems I can see little difference. So I thought I would try and get some opinions of readers of this thread:

Scenario is:

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.

My gut instinct tells me Windfury will still give an overall higher DPS for the group. But there is an argument that Grace of Air which would benefit all the group may be better. I worry sometimes that Hunters will be out of range of the Agility totem if I drop it anyway, especially on bosses when I am close to a Boss (max range for them is 36 I believe).

The links on Page 1 show examples for all but Hunters(or they did may have changed now).

Any thoughts or suggestions as to which way I should go?

Last edited by Boro : 08/22/07 at 7:15 PM.
#1735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Since I really don't like comparing items withouth taking stamina and/or intellect into account what do you guys think about the ratings I use for comparing items?

Sta = 0.75
Int = 0.25
Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.1
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.13
HR = 0.25

The question is not if you like my weights for stamina and intellect, that's up to you. For me stamina and intellect are very important. You just want a big amount of HP for most Bosses in BT.
The question is if there's something wrong in my maths or if my stats are correct as long as I like them. Sorry for my english, I hope you understand what I'm asking for.

Thanks in advance.
#1736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Chunk
syphon > wicked edge?
#1737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Boro View Post
A quick question on Totems and groups and although I have been a reader of this thread and others, I am not sure of the answer to this question. Even in practice it seems I can see little difference. So I thought I would try and get some opinions of readers of this thread:

Scenario is:

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.

My gut instinct tells me Windfury will still give an overall higher DPS for the group. But there is an argument that Grace of Air which would benefit all the group may be better. I worry sometimes that Hunters will be out of range of the Agility totem if I drop it anyway, especially on bosses when I am close to a Boss (max range for them is 36 I believe).

The links on Page 1 show examples for all but Hunters(or they did may have changed now).

Any thoughts or suggestions as to which way I should go?
/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
#1738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
Im going to play around with your model and Tristan's (again, many thanks) addon and come back (time permitting, as my job is time consuming - perhaps I will convince the dean that I should teach a class on WoW and then he will give me all the resources and RAs to run with this) with something more concrete.
I believe the key here, Diogo, is to make people take ownership of their own projects. If you give people students the freedom and plant the seed, they'll do it for a term project.

"Everyone needs to complete a real-life project involving the concepts learned in this class by the end of the semester. If you need help finding a topic, see me in office hours. Please pick something that interests you! Your project will be much more enjoyable for you. I've heard from others that aspects of this class are relevant in fields such as equity valuations, genetics, traffic patterns - even video games such as World of Warcraft. Again, see me if you need help picking out a project - I'm here to help"

yeah... something like that ;-)
#1739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
I'll try running that mod tomorrow -- I don't know if I can hold back shocking, could we run a command-line utility to remove all lines with "Shock" in them to fix the problem?

I also don't know how far the Cobb-Douglas function will take us, but if it can be used to get within 5% just like the sims can, that would be a step forward. It's good to see another Econ mind here, but just remember that Solow didn't win a Nobel because his models were super-accurate predictors of economic growth (for example, steady-state growth = 0), but because they contributed to the understanding of economic growth. In this case we may end up with a similar situation.
Originally Posted by Beroll View Post
Sta = 0.75
Int = 0.25
Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.1
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.13
HR = 0.25
HR way undervalued unless you are extremely close to cap and adding an item's worth of hit would cap you or something.

Last edited by Rob : 08/22/07 at 9:46 PM.
#1740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Boro View Post

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.
If you're in a group with 2 hunters and yourself, drop GoA. At that point WF for 2 rogues is probably not going to beat out GoA for 3 people. On the other hand, if your hunters are lousy at their class I'd drop WF anyways.
#2901SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I tend to agree that having secondary points in resto will still be the best (especially for totem twisting.) That said I guess it is a good thing that we are atleast talking about elemental. Though I still think any talk of Elemental devastation is absurd.

One thing I think that is being missed though is the following. Everyone is thinking purely offensively because currently that is all an enhancement shaman is. If the proposed changes go in, we will all be sitting at 700-1000 dam/healing and a quick swap to a healing weapon and healing shield will put that in the 1200+ healing range. Still not a raid healer by any means but miles ahead of where we were. The largest benefit will easily be to our healing and then searing totem and healing stream totem.

The boost to shocks will be nice but realistically our + damage is still getting butchered by the damage coefficient and cooldowns on shocks.

It is going to be pretty exciting. I have access to a rogue and already consider my shaman the best mob grinding class in the game. Give me big healing stream, and big healing waves and 30% damage reduction...
#2902SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
No, it depends on Boss' level only. From wowwiki:
Original post - Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Yes the formula is for incoming damage, so you need to calculate the armor as being a level 73 boss and you're fighting level 70 enemies.

Your armor is more effective against lower level enemies obviously.

Example:

Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 67 mob, the reduction is 68.6%.
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 70 mob, the reduction is 65.5%
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 73 mob, the reduction is 62.6%

Currently you're calculating the reduction as if the boss is getting hit by same-level enemies (aka lvl 73 enh shaman), that is obviously wrong.
#2903SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I find living without healing focus very difficult. Elemental or Enhance, it's the real dealbreaker for me. Another thing to consider about resto vs elemental, is that Nature's guidance is actually 6 points of hit: 3% melee and 3% spell. I won't consider speccing elemental secondary until I never want to pvp or farm on my shaman again.
The spell hit is really nice (especially since it's essentially free) and when I specced out of Healing Focus, getting a few adds was horrible when I was playing solo.

I will try an Ele minor once 2.3 goes through though. The added shock damage is nice, but I'm especially curious about how the extra spell damage will play with Improved Fire Totems (does anyone know if this affects Greater Fire Elemental?). 10% less elemental damage will be great for both raids and pvp.
#2904SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
#2905SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
Haha nice.
#2906SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
I apologize if this has been covered earlier in the thread, but it's not in the OP.


How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?

With Flurry alone My attack speed with Dragonmaw is 2.08.

Maybe it's the wording of the tooltip that's confusing me, but in my world, increasing the attack speed by 30% would mean an attack speed of

2.70*0.7 = 1.89.

2.08/2.70 = ~.77

which brings me to the question, does the Haste from flurry diminish like the haste from haste rating as your progress from 60 to 70? Does the same degradation affect Bloodlust?

With Flurry and Bloodlust, my attack speed drops to 1.60.

2.08*.07 = ~1.46

1.6/2.08 = ~.77

throwing Abacus of Violent Odds in the mix,

260 Haste Rating(pre 2.2) = 24.73% haste.

That alone brings me down to 2.18 attack speed

2.70*0.7527 = 2.03

All together, I get down to 1.28 attack speed.

1.60*0.7527 = 1.2

So my question is: how do these effects apply, and in what order?
#2907SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))
#2908SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))

So...

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?

>>>

2.7/ (1.003*1.003*1.45) = 1.85

Maybe I fail at math, it's been a long time since college.

What's that 10.52 from?
#2909SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?
You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.
#2910SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.


You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.


oooo.

ok.

so, 1.1, which is what I get with all the buffs.

Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
#2911SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
What's that 10.52 from?
It's the amount of haste rating it takes for a level 70 character to have a 1% haste increase on melee attacks.
#2912SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
What? If you're talking about its actual effect on your swing time (reducing it by 23%), consider that you can get over 100% haste. What happens at 101% haste as you're considering it? Negative swing time?
#2913SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
#2914SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kasi
I would love to get points in healing focus as an elemental shaman, but there is so much less wiggle room in an elemental spec then there is in enhancement. If I take more than 1 point in focus, it means losing totem range, spell hit or spell crit. All of which to me are pretty big no nos. If I could get full focus with only sacrificing 1 or maybe 2 points, than it might be plausible. but not when it means sacrificing 4 points.
#2915SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Vim
When applying AEP values to items, is there a way to weigh the value of Stam as well, or is it more of a personal preferance? Since you can easily compare strength to AP, for stam it seems to me its like comparing apples to oranges since increasing stam does not impact DPS directly, but a "dead shaman does no DPS". Some items that score high on AEP are low, or have nil stam which is less appealing to melee IMO. If there is no way to weigh it directly, is there a minimum HP suggestion for BT/Hyjal?

Last edited by Vim : 09/24/07 at 5:10 PM.
#2916SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Hello fellow Enhancers!

First time poster, long time reader (as much as possible anyway!).

I am currently applying for a pretty serious raiding guild on Executus and have found that my inappropriate "upgrades" have ended up hurting my overall DPS for end game raids. The main issue I have always had is judging which stats actually translate into the highest overall DPS gains. Anyway, whoever broke down the AEP values, thank you so much, it has helped me tremendously and with the addition of the Pawn mod, it's easy mode now on choosing upgrades.

However, on the subject of Pawn strings, I think I may found an error with the first post, which states:

Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's AEP values):

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

Technically - shouldn't the socket values be as follows?

RedSocket = 17.6 (same) 8 x 2.2 - 17.6
BlueSocket = 8.8 (+4 str - +6 stam gem) 4 x 2.2 = 8.8
YellowSocket = 16.8 (+4 str - +4 crit gem) 4 x 2.2 + 4 x 2 = 16.8

Maybe I am missing something; some additional clarity would be welcomed. Thank you.
#2917SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6

Value of various exceptions can be calculated pretty easy...f'rexample, check out my leggings...i'm missing about 3.2 AEP by using two +8 crit rating gems, but the +8 AP offsets that. And I'm losing a handful of AEP from the bracers and gloves, a tradeoff made to gain a teeny bit of stamina (which obviously i need).
#2918SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6
Oh duh! Jesus, how stupid on my part! That should have been blatantly obvious. Thanks for the clarification Toots.
#2919SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Toots Hepcat
Ahh, the Stamina thing.

Strictly speaking, the AEP of stamina is 0, because it does not contribute directly to DPS. If you can guarantee you'll never get hit, you don't need any extra health -- and if you're going to get one shot anyway, it doesn't matter what your health was before it happened. Many fights definitely have a minimum value due to AoE or cleave effects, which change depending on your raid makeup. If you group with two warriors, for example, you can effectively shave 100 +STM off your gear thanks to commanding shout.

Stamina shouldn't be in the AEP numbers, but enhancers should pick up stamina gear whenever possible. That way we can stack just enough of it to form a baseline contoured to the fight and the group, and have the rest of our gear devoted to that which maximizes our DPS.

I currently maintain two sets of DPS gear: one with a health goal of 6500 (which is a nice buffer for those bosses that have 3000 damage AoE pulses), and my high DPS set with no lower limit (and thus around 5500 health). As I push into higher tiers of raiding, I expect to push up my "survival" set's baseline to match the tougher raid bosses.

I think all of this applies to int as well. I currently have no problems with mana, but I will if I keep trading hunter/shaman/druid gear for rogue leathers.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/24/07 at 5:40 PM.
#2920SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
#2921SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3djaehns
Hi Shaman friends,

first of all a big THANK YOU to all of you guys. I've learned so much about my char by goings through this whole post.

But at the moment I've still one question. A few days ago, I had a discussion with my raidleader about the setup of the melee group. We had 2 rogues, 1 offwarrior and me.

The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.

Are there any calculations? Especially in connection with all my melee buff?
or is it a really stupid question and the answer is very easy?

thx

Miuntar
#2922SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vim
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
thx

Miuntar

Uh oh
#2923SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Bah, for quite a while I was Restoration, so I was a bit lagging behind in theorycraft about Enhancement. I didn't think much of it, but I've always socketed my gear for a LOT of crit. I checked just now and I have 32% crit unbuffed, but only 1452 AP. I started looking into my personal performance a little and I remain unsatisfied for now, really. Would my performance improve by regemming anything of my gear? I know for a fact Crit is nice, but maybe I overdid it a little. I'm not too sure anymore :E.

The Armory

Any suggestions on whether I should keep on going for this approach or not? Should I re-evaluate my sockets and value Strength a lot higher then what I do now? It's not like I completely ignored Strength, I just have a damn lot more crit :P.
I know the OP states I should gem yellow with 4 str 4 crit, but I kindly ignored that for quite a while since in the tier 5 region of gear I was in, there was quite a lot of AP/Str on the items already. Now that I've gotten some tier 6 quality gear I seem to be dropping in attack power every day :/
#2924SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.
So you're asking which is better: 3% increased damage or 5% increased damage?
#2925SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
To Illundi.

Well +8 crit is 16 AEP and 8 Str is 17.6 AEP (with BOK). So from a pure min max perspective +8 Str is just better. I have always viewed 30% crit as a good breakpoint, but honestly I just go with whatever is the highest AEP return.
#3151SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
5*15.76*1.4*flurryuptime% for rough numbers.
#3152SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Galeyra
I got a beginner's question.
I know shocks dont reset your swing timer, but a friend of mine recently told me, that if you shock when your swingtimer is ready, you just shock, and the autohit doesnt hit and is lost.
I tried to reproduce this by shocking exactly when i would be hitting, but the attacks hits always, just the swing animation often got lost.
So, is my friend wrong? And please help me to disprove him, because he insists on his opinion.
Thanks for your reply
#3153SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Sounds like you already solved the problem. Show him a combat log.
#3154SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nisall
I think you are correct in saying that only the animation gets lost. It is very easy to prove to your friend just take a screen shot of your combat log with timestamps showing that your swing and shock damage happen at the same time

EDIT: Too slow
#3155SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Can anyone provide the math for Unleashed Rage uptime in terms of Crit Rating, for both DW and 2H scenarios?
#3156SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
For DW it's something like 97%+ in any raid buffed scenario so it's pretty irrelevant.

For 2H I would think it would be something like:
% Up = 1 - (1-Crit Rating)^(10/Weapon Speed)

So for WS 3.8 and CR 30%
% Up = 1 - (1 - .3)^(10/3.8) = 1 - .7^2.63 = 1 - .39 = 61%

You know, I just realized this is wrong since I didn't consider Flurry in the Weapon Speed term -- and this is why closed-form models are so hard to create for Shamans. I'll post it anyways as a starting point.
#3157SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus:

/use The Decapitator
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
Hey, that is excellent. Thank you.
#3158SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
oogg
No Text.

Last edited by oogg : 10/03/07 at 5:17 PM. Reason: removed post since someone else clarified formulas
#3159SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Areus
One thing that may need to be fixed as well, is that for DW, the WF proc% is 36% outside the 3s rule. The 2h would still have a 20% proc rate though.
#3160SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
#3161SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Dyamito View Post
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
#3162SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
Yeah didn't see search till just now, are we not allowed to sign our posts?
#3163SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Its discouraged. You have a big huge profile to the left of the post content that tells us who you are.
#3164SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
WF totem and warrior...WTF

Alright now I know that this has been beat into the ground and WF>GoA for warriors and non dagger rogues (am yet to see anything convincing saying WF>GoA for dagger rogues post nerf), but I was flipping through WWS reports of Lurker and this is what I found

Bood - WWS - 516 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 630 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 652 dps with WF

Now that first attempt was our first time to down Lurker which is why I think its so much lower than the other 2, but in that last attempt he even had a Bloodmoon as opposed to the Lunar Cresent version for the first 2 kills. I would have expected his DPS to be much higher with WF over GoA. Sadly the rogues didn't take off their poisons even though I told them I wanted to test out WF to see the dps differences so I can't compare their dps of GoA vs WF, but Conobum (our best dagger rogue) did lose about 50dps by not having GoA.

And the reason I normally have GoA down is because our group makeup is normally a feral druid, the war (he's a 33/28 2h slam spec), 2 dagger rogues, and me. Has anyone else seen things like this or have WWS reports of a war using GoA and then using WF on the same boss to compare the difference?
#3165SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Couple random WWS report dont proof anything but bad fluke. In second try he did more slams(42) and less autos(53) than third try slams(37), auto+wf(63). Some how he have lots of misses at last try 7-10% vs 3% misses at second.
#3166SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
#3167SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2evilution
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
One thing we have still not addressed is the Stormstrike cycling. We need some modeling and/or testing to determine if the 'use it when its lit' or 'use it only when a WF cooldown has ended' is the best methodology. We'll need to know that the supposedly increased windfury procs are going to offset the 5% (or more) loss of Stormstrike damage by not using it every 10 sec.

Edit - to clarify, we've had many people talk about using the "wait till I'm off WF CD" method, but nobody has provide any sort of modeling or testing numbers to actually back it up. All we have so far is anecdotal stories.
Has anyone (Yo! perhaps) built this into their modeling programs? I have tried to search through the thread and could not find an answer.

It would be interesting to have a switch to turn this on and off within the model.
#3168SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
He's planning to do so, its a grayed out option on one of the panes. Just not implemented yet.

Simulator stuff is great, but we really need to grab the "why" of it so that I can present it in the article. Telling someone 'its better because the sim says so' will still generate a lot of responses of "well I do it this way, and its better."
#3169SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aett
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Heroic Strike consumes your auto-attack? So the number of chances to proc windfury stays the same.

Also, many warriors don't use heroic strike because it has a strong, positive threat modifier on it. So if he's threat capped (which I can't imagine he is with that dps number) then it would make sense for him not to be using it.
#3170SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Sure but Slam resets the swing timer, consumes rage, and does not proc WF.
#3171SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ fangar
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

Last edited by fangar : 10/02/07 at 11:08 AM.
#3172SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2ryakaz
Can [Fel Edged Battleaxe] be better than [Runic Hammer] for DPS because I can put [Bold Living Ruby].
#3173SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Read the first post.
Figure out if there are ANY tools linked there that may be able to answer your question.
#3174SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

That is about the rotation that is used only with WW worked in when MS is on CD and I think an extra reg attack when both MS and WW are on CD (happens every third rotation). Also he went with this spec for the extra 4% physical damage talent which helps all phyiscal damage dealers
#3175SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Some napkin math on that follows using the average hit values from Loading...

No slam, no HS:
Per 3.7 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) = 945.6
255 dps

Slam, assuming .8 average swing timer disruption (improved slam):
Per 4.5 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) + 979 = 1924.6
427 DPS

Heroic strike:
Per 3.7 seconds: 988 + (788*.2) = 1145.6
309 DPS

Slam is still superior by quite a bit if it's used correctly, and it is considerably less threat, and doesn't take away the rage generated by the white hit.
#3201SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
There's an old thread talking about it in the PvP sub forum. Title was something like "enhance and group/weapon choice" or some such combination.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3202SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ Disquette
Hm, another thought about the Ashtongue thing -

First, thanks Malan, Nite and others for bringing up the debuff portion. That makes sense.

Moreover, I think that could tie into the 89% explanation. If we have 3 events that each have a 50% chance of proc'ing the talisman, then 1 - (1/2)^3 = 87.5%.

Granted, it doesn't take into account the dodge/parry mechanics, which would make the other explanation, with a base chance of 94% work better. I do like simple explanations though, when available.

Edit - check this out:
http://elitistjerks.com/418420-post541.html

From that post listed which gets the 89% uptime, he calculates it over only attacks that landed. Looks like parries/dodges weren't an issue then. If there's no other information that has different parameters, I'd venture a guess that it's a 3 roll system that corresponds to what I found when testing my mod.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

Last edited by Disquette : 10/08/07 at 12:44 PM.
#3203SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Visionnaire
Introduction and questions.

Hello,

This is my first time posting here, and so, I would just first like to introduce myself. I am an enhancement shaman, who has progressed up to and including Gurtogg in BT.

I understand the rating system, as outline on the first page, for strength, agility, haste, etc.
Always assuming Kings
Strength = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 2
Haste Rating = 1.48
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

My armory that I logged out is my maximum DPS gear. Unbuffed, I have 8399 health, which I consider a problem. Most melee have upwards around 9100 health unbuffed. The thing is, rogues have cloak/vanish/sprint/etc, DPS warriors have high armor/gear has HP, while I really have very little in any of those departments. This is being an enhancement shaman, and I deal with it by putting on more stamina gear, such as merciless pieces, and trinkets with stamina (like Spyglass out of SSC).

Please note that I included all of my current gems and enchants in the AEP and stamina calculations.
My slots that I often switch out for stamina gear are:

Shoulders
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes]
AEP = 232.76
Stamina = 19

[Cyclone Shoulderplates]
AEP = 201.40
Stamina = 31

[Cataclysm Shoulderplates]
AEP = 191.60
Stamina = 43

Helm
[Cyclone Helm]
AEP = 236.80 (not including +3% bonus crit damage)
Stamina = 40

[Merciless Gladiator's Linked Helm]
AEP = 193.80
Stamina = 96


Neck
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
AEP = 155.40
Stamina = 0

[Worgen Claw Necklace]
AEP = 105.80
Stamina = 21

[Mithril Chain of Heroism]
AEP = 105.60
Stamina = 22


Trinket
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
AEP = 109
Stamina = 0

[Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet]
AEP = 0
Stamina = 40


Gloves
[Fists of Mukoa]
AEP = 213.76
Stamina = 24

[Cataclysm Gauntlets]
AEP = 191.60
Stamina = 34


I know this isn't supposed to be a thread of how to gear myself, but I'd just like to know some opinions on which combinations would result in decent AEP / stamina ratio out of the items I have presented. I do not wish to stay at 8399 hp unbuffed, and so I am obviously looking to up my stamina, which will obviously decrease my AEP.

Also, I do not know if this has been discussed yet, but before the patch, my three haste rating items (shoulders, belt, and gloves) brought my weapons to 2.62 / 2.62 with the tooltip saying around 10.5% haste. Now, the 2.2 patch says my weapons are still 2.62 / 2.62, but with only 6.98% haste.

Was it a bug in the tooltip for the haste? So, it seems that my haste dropped around 3.5% but yet my weapon speeds stayed the same.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Last edited by Visionnaire : 10/02/07 at 4:29 PM.
#3204SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mbuzi
How much stamina you need is dependent on both the encounter and the quality of your healers. I don't think there is any way to create a hard and fast rule that will solve every encounter. My suggestion would be to add the items that give you the best AEP/STA benefit until you find the break point where you can comfortably stay alive yet maximize your DPS.
#3205SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
How much stamina you need is dependent on both the encounter and the quality of your healers. I don't think there is any way to create a hard and fast rule that will solve every encounter. My suggestion would be to add the items that give you the best AEP/STA benefit until you find the break point where you can comfortably stay alive yet maximize your DPS.
WTB T6. Has lots of AEP and stam. Just what I need.
#3206SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ Kurisu
Originally Posted by Visionnaire View Post
stuff
How is Glad helm 96 stamina?

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed

Last edited by Kurisu : 10/02/07 at 4:54 PM.
#3207SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2MalgorTB
If you all don't mind, I'd like to apologize for the extraordinarily newbish post a page or so back where I asked about weapon speeds. At first I was a little stunned at the amount of hostility I received for it. However, after reading the last 20-30 pages of this thread, the hostility is certainly understandable!

I think the problem is that the first post is so full of yummy information, that us noobs get excited, and most of us have a follow-up question that we want to ask the enhancement shaman community. The problem is that the question has already been asked and answered about 150 million times in the actual thread.

In my (perhaps lame) defense, the original post had this to say about weapon speeds:

The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS.
Now having just decided to use a MH weapon (2.7) which was slower than my OH weapon (2.6), this made it sound like I was gimping myself. Doesn't it? Hard to interpret that any other way. My OH was faster than my MH, which was supposedly "extremely detrimental" to my DPS.

It wasn't until after I entered my data into the simulator, and changed the MH to 2.6 did I realize that it was considerably better for my main hand to be 2.7 than if it was 2.6.

I think to clarify some of the confusion inherent in the statement about weapon speeds, an addition could be something like:

Despite losing main hand WF procs by having your offhand weapon faster than your main hand weapon, you should still strive to keep your main hand weapon as slow as possible. The DPS advantage of having a slower offhand outweighs the DPS lost by having your offhand steal additional WF procs. You should not sacrifice main hand top end damage to avoid having your offhand weapon faster than your main hand.

2.7/2.6 > 2.6/2.6
It may seem obvious to the experts here, but it is not at all clear in the original post, IMHO.

Anyway, I apologize again for the newb question, and am looking forward to redeeming myself.
#3208SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
How is Glad helm 96 stamina?
Meta = 18 Stam
Other slot = 18 stam unique for JC

= Lots of stam.
#3209SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Visionnaire View Post
WTB T6. Has lots of AEP and stam. Just what I need.
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!

I have 8849 hp unbuffed and I find it unnecessary. With mark, fort, and by some miracle we have 3 paladins and I have kings I sit at ~10,500 hp; I'd go as far to say that you don't need any higher than 9k buffed hp for any encounter except maybe council, but I'm pretty sure I've been instagibbed on that fight even with high hp.

As far as the haste thing is concerned, 2.8 weapons would be faster than 2.62 with 10.5% haste, your memory is either foggy or you've swapped in gear.
#3210SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by rava View Post
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!

I have 8849 hp unbuffed and I find it unnecessary. With mark, fort, and by some miracle we have 3 paladins and I have kings I sit at ~10,500 hp; I'd go as far to say that you don't need any higher than 9k buffed hp for any encounter except maybe council, but I'm pretty sure I've been instagibbed on that fight even with high hp.

As far as the haste thing is concerned, 2.8 weapons would be faster than 2.62 with 10.5% haste, your memory is either foggy or you've swapped in gear.
Yeah, except 2.62 / 2.62 is what my tooltip said at 10.5% haste pre-patch. Was this only me then that had this bug? ..

I swapped in gear and have around 8995 unbuffed now, but with a lot less haste gear. I'd rather stay alive for new progression than die and be useless.
#3211SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by MalgorTB View Post
Now having just decided to use a MH weapon (2.7) which was slower than my OH weapon (2.6), this made it sound like I was gimping myself. Doesn't it? Hard to interpret that any other way. My OH was faster than my MH, which was supposedly "extremely detrimental" to my DPS.
Yes that is something I need to rewrite a little bit, its on my to-do list. Its really just that both MH and OH need to be slow in order to minimize overlap of swing timers past the point of exiting the cooldown.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3212SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes that is something I need to rewrite a little bit, its on my to-do list. Its really just that both MH and OH need to be slow in order to minimize overlap of swing timers past the point of exiting the cooldown.
New thread time Malan! "Enhancement Shaman: 2.6 or slower, Windfury on Both"
#3213SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mengus
Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
I know I am joining late, but can anyone can point me to posts/threads that have discussed the use of Enhancement Shamans, their builds, itemization, etc. for PvP?

On the first page, it says:
Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. ...
Can someone point me at a proper theorycraft discussion of weapons and specs for Enhancement for PvP? For instance, I've seen many recommendation of a 2H build for PvP, BG, Arena, etc. (e.g. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).

(In addition to weapons and specs, I'd be interested in being directed to any other theorycraft discussions of Enhancement for PvP also.)
I've tossed around using Gorehowl or 2x Merc Glad, and while every once in a while I find myself trying a 2H, I keep going back to DW. Part of it is that I proc UR a lot, and run with 2 MS warriors. Second, my crit with 2H isn't as high as I'd like, and I get way too many non crits with 2H. I mean, there's the occasional 10k or so SS + WF from a 2H, but for me, they are few and far between.

25-30% crit with DW is great, but pretty much blows chunks with 2H, especially with my poor survivability.
#3214SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2drats
Originally Posted by rava View Post
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!
I thought I saw on WorldofRaids blue notes that t4/5/6 was going to be re-itemized to get rid of spell stats and replace them with crit/ap/str. They didn't specify class though, which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies.
#3215SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by drats View Post
which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies
Supposedly, yes. Although they're believed to be fake notes.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3216SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shabadu
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
I've tossed around using Gorehowl or 2x Merc Glad, and while every once in a while I find myself trying a 2H, I keep going back to DW. Part of it is that I proc UR a lot, and run with 2 MS warriors. Second, my crit with 2H isn't as high as I'd like, and I get way too many non crits with 2H. I mean, there's the occasional 10k or so SS + WF from a 2H, but for me, they are few and far between.

25-30% crit with DW is great, but pretty much blows chunks with 2H, especially with my poor survivability.
I've found my arena performance slightly better using a Soul Cleaver vs using my Rising Tide/Merc Glad combo. Lust goes a long way to making 2h better, and it's not like you'll usually outlive 45 seconds against many teams.
#3217SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Supposedly, yes. Although they're believed to be fake notes.
I really doubt the validity of those notes based on the Weapon Expertise talent changes. Adding HP and a mana gain onto Weapon Expertise? Seems pretty damn silly.

But I imagine we will still have mp5 on enhance gear. My guess is it's similar to the Agi piled on warrior DPS gear. An intentional gimp placed on DPS without just straight up nerfing something.
#3218SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
@ Mengus -

I find that in arena, I swap weapons depending on what class I am fighting. The spellpushback on DW is very nice against mages and resto shaman, while the burst of a 2h is just what you need when you have them with their backs against the wall.

I change them unconciously now. This is what I remember doing in some circumstances.

Healing Priests - DW
Druids - DW
Mages - DW
Shaman - DW
Wars - DW
Rogues - DW
Paladins - DW

Shadow Priests - 2h
Warlocks - 2h
Hunters - 2h
Pets - 2h

For battlegrounds I go DW all the way.
#3219SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Torrential View Post
I really doubt the validity of those notes based on the Weapon Expertise talent changes. Adding HP and a mana gain onto Weapon Expertise? Seems pretty damn silly
Yeah, why would they want to encourage people to take a talent that nobody currently takes?
#3220SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by drats View Post
I thought I saw on WorldofRaids blue notes that t4/5/6 was going to be re-itemized to get rid of spell stats and replace them with crit/ap/str. They didn't specify class though, which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies.
They were talking about Ret pallies and it was a "rumored" set of notes (which in my mind is equivalent to fake).

They already reitemized our T4/5 to take off the spell damage, so I'm not hopeful to see further MP5 reductions on these pieces. I do believe that T6 could and should someday have the MP5 removed and replaced with passive haste or armor penetration.
#3221SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Squigg
Alright, so I could not find anything about this using the search function so im just going to ask.

Firstly, haste gear is starting to become available to me with 4 bosses down in BT, and I was wondering if it was worth picking up over crit gear. My question is with more crit you recieve a higher flurry uptime, and wouldnt that naturally equal out to haste? So I guess my main question is, is there a point were +crit on a piece of gear will be better than haste rating?
#3222SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Read the first post.
#3223SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
As for the PvP question I have found that it depends on what your fighting and at what bracket. High resil targets (generally found in the higher brackets) and against healers I found DW to be better, while against lower resil targets and when your helping FF down the main target the burst from the 2h was generally better for me.

And yes I wasn't always on the FF target. Sometimes I would get on the healer and just lock out his heals or force him to heal himself, which let my team kill theirs.

__________________
#3224SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Squigg
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Read the first post.
I did. It didn't answer my question.
#3225SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Squigg View Post
I did. It didn't answer my question.
Then you didn't read all of it. I suggest the section titled "Itemization – Haste".
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 4:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#3251SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
◊ Malan
Fixed and added a 3.8 line and corrected the uploaded image per Rob below.
Attached Thumbnails
screenshot-1.png  

Last edited by Malan : 10/03/07 at 11:45 AM.
#3252SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Rob
You uploaded the wrong SS this time

3.7 is close enough to 3.8 it shouldn't make more than a percent or two of difference.
#3253SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
There ya go, corrected the post above. Messy posting from doing this while working.
#3254SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
Malan, can you link the sheet so I can update my end to match your values. If you don't want to, let me know and I'll empty my post with the data so that it won't confuse anyone searching. I don't want to spread false ideas.

Thanks everyone for correcting and improving the sheet.
#3255SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})
Attached Files
File Type: xls UR uptime.xls (74.0 KB, 16 views)
#3256SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread but I have a question. I stopped playing before the BT patch and just started up again yesterday. I am not a blacksmith and I don't know if I have time for arenas. My current weapons are Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper. Obviously these are very fast weapons and in direct opposition of what I should be using. My question is will I be effective in a 25 man raid with these weapons or will I be fairly useless until I get some slower weapons?
#3257SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Group buffs that you can provide - Useful. Contribution to Raid DPS that you can provide - pretty pathetic.
#3258SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
Thanks. That's what I figured. Hopefully I can at least get a fool's bane or decapitator in a stray kara run. DW daggers seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it didn't but those were the only epics weapons that dropped for me while I was raiding.
#3259SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
If anyone has any extra time today and wants to look over some contributions from the WoW forums, please check out this thread WoW Forums -> Help improve the EJ Enhancement thread that I made to solicit the brain power of any latent genius that might be lurking on the official boards. Need some help figuring out if the responses are correct enough to include in the OP/Wiki.
#3260SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
Originally Posted by Thebeat View Post
Thanks. That's what I figured. Hopefully I can at least get a fool's bane or decapitator in a stray kara run. DW daggers seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it didn't but those were the only epics weapons that dropped for me while I was raiding.
It was an ok idea when you can do 5-4 Windfury without having shared cooldowns.
#3261SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})
The formulas are perfect. I don't know what you want to do with the modifier (if statement). It needs to be left the way it is to accurately reflect the mechanic.

I'll just erase my post since we have what we need now.
#3262SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
I simply moved it out of the formula because of the IF/ELSE statement adding confusion and to break up the LaTeX formula a bit, it was getting pretty lengthy. I'll just rename it to WindfuryHits or something to more accurately reflect what it is.
#3263SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2tedv
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I simply moved it out of the formula because of the IF/ELSE statement adding confusion and to break up the LaTeX formula a bit, it was getting pretty lengthy. I'll just rename it to WindfuryHits or something to more accurately reflect what it is.
You could write Modifier this way if you don't like an explicit if/else:

Modifier = WF Proc Rate * min(1, Weapon Speed / 3)

Seems pretty easy to inline at that point.
#3264SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Rob
I'd write it like this -- a piecewise function, if you will:

\text{Modifier} = \left\{<br />
\begin{array}{l l}<br />
  \text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\<br />
  \text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3<br />
\end{array}<br />
\right.

Or use the min() function as suggested above.
#3265SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Thebeat View Post
My question is will I be effective in a 25 man raid with these weapons or will I be fairly useless until I get some slower weapons?
Obviously it depends on the makeup of the raid. My guildy is an Enh, Shaman using those weapons and he does okay -- his max dps is less than mine with blue weapons, but still more than most of our DPS warriors.

Why does he wield them? Same reason you might want to wear them around town if you're looking for a tier 5 raiding guild -- those weapons are proof you've raided extensively. If you're aiming to run some more Kara, do go after Fool's Bane, the Decapitator, or the Wolf's Paw.

With this in mind, there are a number of easy farmed slow blues that'll put out more DPS in raids. Personally, I liked the [Demonblood Eviscerator] (Drop from regular Shattered Halls, pretty common) teamed with the [Boggspine Knuckles] (Drop from the first boss in Heroic Underbog, pretty common). The unarmed skill rating on the Eviscerator teamed with the Knuckles is a great pairing, and the Knuckles will carry you until you can afford to replace them with a [Runic Hammer].

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/03/07 at 5:02 PM.
#3266SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Atren
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Obviously it depends on the makeup of the raid. My guildy is an Enh, Shaman using those weapons and he does okay -- his max dps is less than mine with blue weapons, but still more than most of our DPS warriors.

Why does he wield them? Same reason you might want to wear them around town if you're looking for a tier 5 raiding guild -- those weapons are proof you've raided extensively. If you're aiming to run some more Kara, do go after Fool's Bane, the Decapitator, or the Wolf's Paw.

With this in mind, there are a number of easy farmed slow blues that'll put out more DPS in raids. Personally, I liked the [Demonblood Eviscerator] (Drop from regular Shattered Halls, pretty common) teamed with the [Boggspine Knuckles] (Drop from the first boss in Heroic Underbog, pretty common). The unarmed skill rating on the Eviscerator teamed with the Knuckles is a great pairing, and the Knuckles will carry you until you can afford to replace them with a [Runic Hammer].
Concerning Kara Violet rep exalted will prove it. Also it is like Damocles sword -- they might look that you dont know that fast weapons dont work with enhancement shaman.
#3267SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Rob your LaTeX-fu is greater than my own. I'll use that.
#3268SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
#3269SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
It's really not. Gear with the proper stats is the gear of choice. You'll still end up with plenty of mail pieces, and we don't want people ignoring mail all together in favor of leather. Paying attention to armor class is the mistake, you shouldn't be going in the opposite direction for the sake of it being Leather. Maybe "If you're looking at Armor/Intellect/Spirit/MP5/Spell Damage, STOP IT NOW" would be more appropriate.

We ninja loot from both rogues AND hunters!
#3270SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})

You should either decide to use simple formulas to describe the models or fully developed ones:

Wfproc rate for dual wield is closely approximated:
wfprocmh := 20%/(floor(3.0/wsmh))
wfprocoh := 20%/(floor(3.0/wsoh))
wfprocdw := wfprocmh+wfprocoh - wfprocmh*wfprocoh

your hits in 10sec is missing stormstrike and generic haste

your flurry calculation is not dependent on hit, since missed swings won't use a charge, additionally you'll need to add certain amount of extra swings from windfury and/or stormstrike in these 3.0s.

My current closed form formulas for weo2:
Pastey.net - paste bin
#3271SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
Leather isn't the gear of choice though. You need gear that has the stats that you're after. Now leather has a good deal of that, and having some leather isn't bad. But having ALL leather would be. This is because even though we need more "rogue" stats, we still need mana which doesn't come on leather. If you had all leather your mana pool would be so low I doubt you could last from SR to SR w/o having to chug mana pots or ease up on SS/totems/shocks, and that just wouldn't be a good use of the potion CD and would hurt your overall dps.

Also a decent amount of leather has +hit on it which isn't a stat that's as needed for enh shaman either.
#3272SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yakout
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Entry Set
[...]
Chest: Not sure, there are not a lot of easily available really good options.
[...]
Belt: Not sure, there are not a lot of easily available really good options.
[...]
MH: Tough call, but I'd say a S1 Gladiator's Pummeler, Dragonmaw, or Fool's Bane (I know this is past Curator in Kara)
Drawing on my personal experience and what I've seen:

Chest: [Laughing Skull Battle-Harness] (BM)
Belt: [Rune-Engraved Belt] (SH quest reward; it's glass cannon-ish, but easily available)
MH: [Demonblood Eviscerator] (SH) seems more realistic if we really want "entry level". It's what I entered Kara wielding.
#3273SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
You should either decide to use simple formulas to describe the models or fully developed ones:
Does it not work as an approximation? The formula are really just there for reference, to show that we didn't just pull some numbers out of our ass.
#3274SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Rezarel
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
your flurry calculation is not dependent on hit, since missed swings won't use a charge
I'm not sure for Shaman Flurry, but I just tested Warrior Flurry with a nice slow 3.6 speed Sword and Dodge, Miss, and Parry all consumed Flurry charges.
#3275SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aezoc
Originally Posted by Rezarel View Post
I'm not sure for Shaman Flurry, but I just tested Warrior Flurry with a nice slow 3.6 speed Sword and Dodge, Miss, and Parry all consumed Flurry charges.
This is also the case with shaman flurry.
#3401SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Rapid
Back on the "Entry Level" equipment sets. Around page 133, Malan you asked if there was site that could help filtering the gear? You could always try Kaliban's Loot Lists at Kaliban's Class Loot Lists.
The stat weight filters are a little coarse (unlike lootzor) and only filter by priority. That being said it was a very handy reference, and allows a new / approaching 70 to filter the gear down to questable items and 5 man instance drops.
#3402SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
So, how do I model in the +weapon skill? Can I just do a quick 5 weapon skill = 3% hit and 0.2% crit -> 1 weapon skill = 0.6% hit and 0.04% crit?

From 18 skill rating I get +4 weapon skill which turns out to be 2.4% hit and 0.16% crit.
There is a "magic" spot at 5 weapon skill.
http://elitistjerks.com/469131-post491.html
So +4weapon skill turns out to be only 1.6% hit instead of 2.4% hit. Adding one more +weapon skill on top of it is worth 1.4% hit.
#3403SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Tons
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Int and Mp5 are nearly meaningless stats. In fact, they are entirely meaningless as long as you have enough mana to sustain a 2 minute dps cycle(including totem twisting). I totem twist, and I never run out of mana. Both stats will have even less value after patch 2.3. I don't assign either of these stats any value at all. Stamina, on the other hand, does matter. I usually value each point at 0.5 AEP.

My current AEP values for the other stats are as follows:

Crit Rating/Agility - 2.0 AEP
Hit Rating - 2.0 AEP
Haste Rating - 1.9 AEP
Armor Penetration - 0.33
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it?

Last edited by Tons : 10/07/07 at 2:50 PM.
#3404SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Tons View Post
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
At really high level of gear, especially at really good crit and ap it turns out that hit rating and haste rating gets better. Using Yo's simulator with my gear I have similar AEP results.
#3405SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2vorda
Originally Posted by Tons View Post
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
I think the short answer to your question is: using Yo!'s sim you can get AEP values for your current gear.
#3406SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mox
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
At really high level of gear, especially at really good crit and ap it turns out that hit rating and haste rating gets better. Using Yo's simulator with my gear I have similar AEP results.

I was alittle shocked at some of the AEP values I got, in my current gear with 1700 AP/31.77 crit/19.02 hit (inc talents - with kings) I got:

1 - AP
2.23 - Crit (????)
2.05 - Hit
2.08 - Haste
0.32 - Armor Ignore
2.17 - Agi
2.2 - Str

Which kinda screws up my loot list as everything becomes crit gems lol :P which kinda goes against the current itemisation plans!
#3407SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Nemaa
Here are some results with Yo's sim if anyone is interested in the 2.3 changes.
Currently in a 2.2 simulation I get 1358 dps, what is pretty accurate to my ingame dps. I have 2 syphons and a Swiftsteel Bludgeon with mongoose. I made 3 simulations for 10000 hours with different weapon and enchant setups:



Mox, my values are:
Crit Rating = 2.11
Agility = 2.05
Hit Rating = 2.0
Haste Rating = 2.04
Armor Penetration = 0.33

Almost the same. It doesn't mean you have to change all your str gems to crit ones. I bet if you gain +1-1.5% crit your Crit Rating AEP will get lower than the STR AEP.
#3408SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Mox how long and how many times did you run the sim for? Yo recommends 1000 hours on the sim for AEP, but when I've done it for testing stuff I set it to 10,000 hours and leave it running for 5-10 minutes. Might give you better results that way, and always always run it more than once to make sure you get the same values consistently.

Also the idea behind the AEP values is how you should value your *next* item, not your current stuff. So don't look at this as "oh crit is worth more for me, I should redo to crit gems" because that's going to change your AEP valuation. The value you use is how you should judge incoming gear based on the gear you currently have.
#3409SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mox
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Mox how long and how many times did you run the sim for? Yo recommends 1000 hours on the sim for AEP, but when I've done it for testing stuff I set it to 10,000 hours and leave it running for 5-10 minutes. Might give you better results that way, and always always run it more than once to make sure you get the same values consistently.

Also the idea behind the AEP values is how you should value your *next* item, not your current stuff. So don't look at this as "oh crit is worth more for me, I should redo to crit gems" because that's going to change your AEP valuation. The value you use is how you should judge incoming gear based on the gear you currently have.

I set it for 15,000 hours and 10,000 hours and got near identical values (afew 0.01 differences here and there).

Yeah I understand the theory that its to enable better selection of future upgrades, but under current thinking are we actually saying that at a certain point in gear progression +hit becomes a sort after stat contrary to most thoughts?
#3410SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
◊ Rob
Basically, at low levels of DPS, Hit and Haste are worth much less than STR and Crit. As players stack STR and Crit, Hit and Haste become more valuable, so at high levels of DPS they are worth as much or more than STR and Crit. We can chalk this up to a few factors:

1) Increasing crit has diminishing returns on increasing Flurry uptime
2) Additional AP becomes less as a percentage of total AP
3) Increasing AP makes extra white hits (created by hit rating) more valuable
4) Increasing AP and crit make extra white attacks (created by haste rating) more valuable

Obviously, if most shamans increased hit and haste initially (before AP and crit) we'd have a different list of factors (increasing hit makes additional AP more valuable, increasing haste makes additional AP and crit more valuable) and we would see more people obtaining sub-1.5 AEPs of Hit and Haste.

Last edited by Rob : 10/07/07 at 1:38 PM.
#3411SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2• Igniter
Originally Posted by Tons View Post
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
Sim on the first page. It lets you input all your stats (although I have noticed no Bloodlust Brooch option) and gives you your overall dps, as well as item values for your current gear setup.
#3412SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2evilution
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Sim on the first page. It lets you input all your stats (although I have noticed no Bloodlust Brooch option) and gives you your overall dps, as well as item values for your current gear setup.
Give yourself an extra 46AP if your using a bloodlust brooch (20/120)*278

20 seconds of uptime every 120 seconds assuming you are using it every time the cooldown is up.
#3413SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Krish
Yo,

Your sim has come a long way, and is proving a very valuable tool indeed. Thank you.

One thing that seems to be off for some reason, possibly after the first time it is switched on, is the AEP ratings when 30% AP --> spell damage is turned on. As you would expect, AP becomes worth more than it was previously, so the other values go down. What seems to be bugged is that suddenly crit and agi have scaled down to ~1.29 while hit rating is ~1.69. One would expect both numbers to come down proportionately, not reverse in this manner. If I recalculate again, the values seem to come back to what they should be. I'm using 10,000 hours as my runtime currently. As I'm trying to add a pawn string to show post 2.3 values for gear choices, I'd really love to make sure they're accurate.
#3414SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2elanoria
Ok, im pretty naive when it comes to using theorycraft and so I figured I might put my ideas out for those with a better understanding to pick them to pieces.

I have two things that I've been wondering about with the coming of 2.3

1) Everyone seems to be discussing the pros/cons of slow WF/fast FT which is all great but im wondering why not slow WF/slow FT? With a fast OH with FT, theres losses in SS dmg as well as ur OH eating flurry procs which u might not be able to keep up as much anyway because you've sacrificied some crit for AP as it gives more spell dmg for your FT. Also, by using FT ur scaling better with haste effects so u would prolly have as many haste trinks/procs/pots as you can which again would result in more losses in flurry procs as ur OH takes them from ur MH, which now needs the haste as there is only 1 wf to worry about when it comes to the 3 sec cd.

2) Ive been thinking about the viability of an enhancement/elemental build. Something like 43/18 based upon getting convection, concussion, reverberation and elemental devastation. This appeals to me because of the increase dmg/cd reduction to shocks which will be pumping out more dps with the coming of 2.3 as it is but also because of elemental devastation which would more than make up for the loss in crit that will happen with me as I aim for more AP to increase spell dmg.

Ok, feel free to flame/praise or do watever with these thoughts, im just putting them out there for consideration and maybe ill get lucky and one of the theorycraft experts will give some attention to my ideas
#3415SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
rava
Originally Posted by elanoria View Post
Ok, im pretty naive when it comes to using theorycraft and so I figured I might put my ideas out for those with a better understanding to pick them to pieces.

I have two things that I've been wondering about with the coming of 2.3

1) Everyone seems to be discussing the pros/cons of slow WF/fast FT which is all great but im wondering why not slow WF/slow FT? With a fast OH with FT, theres losses in SS dmg as well as ur OH eating flurry procs which u might not be able to keep up as much anyway because you've sacrificied some crit for AP as it gives more spell dmg for your FT. Also, by using FT ur scaling better with haste effects so u would prolly have as many haste trinks/procs/pots as you can which again would result in more losses in flurry procs as ur OH takes them from ur MH, which now needs the haste as there is only 1 wf to worry about when it comes to the 3 sec cd.

2) Ive been thinking about the viability of an enhancement/elemental build. Something like 43/18 based upon getting convection, concussion, reverberation and elemental devastation. This appeals to me because of the increase dmg/cd reduction to shocks which will be pumping out more dps with the coming of 2.3 as it is but also because of elemental devastation which would more than make up for the loss in crit that will happen with me as I aim for more AP to increase spell dmg.

Ok, feel free to flame/praise or do watever with these thoughts, im just putting them out there for consideration and maybe ill get lucky and one of the theorycraft experts will give some attention to my ideas
You and you're are your friends.

OH eating flurry procs is irrelevant because you are proccing flurry more often.

Flametongue is far better on faster weapons because the way it scales with slower weapons is far inferior to the added dps you would gain by using the fastest weapon possible. Think of it this way: FT hits for 240 every 4 seconds or 180 every 1.5 seconds with 3k ap and mental quickness(rough numbers, really not sure)

Why do people think elemental devastation is good? It's horrible. Your spell crit rate is roughly 6% making this talent a passive 1% crit at best. Mana reduction to shocks is going to make convection worthless. Is losing 25% cheaper totems, 3% hit, 3% spell hit, 10 yards on totems, and 2 deep enhancement talents worth gaining 1% crit, 5% shock damage, and an extra shock once per minute? This build has been stomped on over and over, no clue why it keeps resurfacing.

Last edited by rava : 10/08/07 at 3:10 AM.
#3416SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2sarf
Clarification to elanoria:
According to what people say, FT gets 10% of your spelldamage added (not modified by speed) + base FT damage (modified by speed).

Therefore, at some itemization point, fast weapons will do more damage from FT scaling than a slow weapon will get from FT base damage.

EDIT:
Added more clarification.
#3417SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Gnus
Wandering, if anyone compare buffed [Rod of the Sun King] vs [Netherbane] as OH, with Dragonstrike in MH?
#3418SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
• Sebudai
Flametongue Weapon is not viable. Unless they change the spell in a major way in the next patch -- and so far there is no reason to assume they will -- it still won't be viable. I'm not sure if some of you understand just how bad FT is right now. It's really bad. I don't want it to be bad, but it is. Sorry!

Also, Enhancement/Restoration is superior to Enhancement/Elemental. There are many reasons for this -- most of which are completely obvious if you actually spent some time thinking about it -- and they've all been posted in this thread already. Shocks account for roughly 10% of my total dps in a raid. I want to drop 15 talent points into improving them why? Convection is a meaningless talent for our spec now, let alone after the patch when our shocks will basically cost 60% less mana. Elemental Devastation is a horrible talent. It's not even in the same realm of any of the Restoration talents. Do you guys put any thought into these questions before you ask them?

Stop ignoring the posts in this thread. Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. I know there are a bunch of people that are new to this class/spec and it's fun to explore the different options, but many of us went through this process months ago. I'm not saying you shouldn't have an open mind or try to think outside of the box, but don't be ignorant. Don't be stupid. Think about your questions before you ask them. If you use your brain you are capable of answering a lot of these questions all by yourself. Many months ago I looked at Elemental Devastation and said to myself "I wonder if that's any good..." I then spent about 30 seconds doing basic math based off of my spell crit % and came up with the following answer : "Nope."

Malan did not pull the original post of this thread directly out of his ass. These are things that we have discovered through a lot of theorycrafting and a lot of experience. It is absolutely retarded to have an endless stream of people coming here to question the most basic truths of our class for the umpteenth time. The answers to your questions have already been posted in this thread, and you're choosing to ignore them.

Stop being lazy.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/08/07 at 5:03 AM.
#3419SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Gnus View Post
Wandering, if anyone compare buffed [Rod of the Sun King] vs [Netherbane] as OH, with Dragonstrike in MH?
Less agi, less stam (you can just neglect that, imo), but 4 more dps and more ap. What do you think?
#3420SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Gnus
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Less agi, less stam (you can just neglect that, imo), but 4 more dps and more ap. What do you think?
+12 ap, +4 dps (roughly 56 ap) vs 1.1 crit (after BoK).
i.e. 68 ap vs 24 crit rate.
Match MH speed, so doesn't consume flurry procs.

Rod is better.
#3421SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Quaunaut
Just wanted to say thanks to a lot of you guys who are constantly working hard to make Shaman damage more apparent, and in general, better. I have tons of fun returning to this thread every night and poring over everything you've discussed. Because of it, my damage is incomprehensible to a few different guilds on the server, as though I'm only 68(and have been reading this thread since a month and a half before I started this Shaman) and yet I'm only 3-5% behind their Mag/SSC level Rogues in DPS(with them getting WF!) in 5 mans, and my gear isn't even that great for my level.

I'm convinced its this high because of my insistence on a good offhand weapon, focus on Stormstriking outside of the WF Cooldown, and my swapping between Flameshock and Earthshock. My mana conservation is pretty golden(I can go half an instance without water purely from out-of-combat mana regen and SR), and though I have a bit of an aggro issue, usually this is only early in a fight when I can spend half a second on another mob just to let the tank get aggro on the main mob.

In short: Thanks for the help. I cannot wait to get my Drakefist Hammer, Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, D3 Helm, Astral Winds totem, Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch just to really show people that a Shaman is not a weak DPSer. I'm having a kick being one of the best Shaman on my faction/server, even not at 70, and I'm not even in my best moments. <3
#3422SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
"+4 dps (roughly 56 ap)"

Where did u rip number 56.(I know you did count 4*14 but its wrong)
AP give dps to ur main and off hand. 56ap would give 4dps to MH and 2dps to oh.
You have count how much ap is worth of 4dps(3.7 if i counted right)
Right number would be 35ap -> 2.5dps to MH and 1.25dps to OH is total 3.75dps.
[Rod of the Sun King] is still better but its not accurate and simple count weapon dps as AEP.
Different speeds and how your mh/oh gets WFs propably mess these calc too much.
#3423SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
According to this thread [RAID] Boss armor values and this post in particular, http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html it looks like most of the end game bosses have 6200 armor and then the high value ones are 7700 armor. Most raids probably aren't using CoR except in a few cases, so we could see those reduced to 2990 and 4490 respectively.

What I found nice was this bit, for a 6200 armor mob after sunders/faerie fire/CoR-
Armor penetration (175): 15.96% - additional dmg increase for it: 1.39%
Armor penetration (350): 14.77% - additional dmg increase for it: 2.83%
Armor penetration (800): 11.56% - additional dmg increase for it: 6.7%
#3424SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Flametongue Weapon is not viable. Unless they change the spell in a major way in the next patch -- and so far there is no reason to assume they will -- it still won't be viable. I'm not sure if some of you understand just how bad FT is right now. It's really bad. I don't want it to be bad, but it is. Sorry!
I wonder if Blizzard is ever going to change flametongue or frostbrand considering that no one uses them. Maybe something like flamefury and frostfury which would work like windfury but your extra attacks would be converted to either frost or fire damage. Rockbiter would still be a dud though.
#3425SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2• Nite_Moogle
Honestly they took a step in the right direction this patch with the AP-> Dmg conversion. The major issue is that FT doesn't scale worth a crap. There are two things that badly limit the usefulness of FT/FB: the horrid 16% spell miss rate on bosses and the fact that they scale linearly while Windfury's damage scales exponentially. Improving the base DPS of the spell to be dependent on your weapon's actual DPS and raising the coefficient on FT to 15% per 1.0 weapon speed (similar to how Seal of Righteousness scales) would probably make it at least worth considering. Another possibility is to have Elemental Weapons provide a small amount of spell hit in addition to or instead of improving the base DPS. It probably wouldn't hurt to insert a shock-only spell hit talent at the top of the elemental tree to promote synergy either.

It's pretty unlikely things will change at this point, though. Windfury is good enough that any attempts to make another ability roughly equal to it is asking for trouble.
#3451SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
What were your input stats and what was your choice of weapon imbues (WF/FT or WF/WF)?


Here are my values: 1724AP, 6.21% haste, 16.93 Hit %, 27.76% CR, 175 Armor Penetration (using 4000 armor as base value, which is probably still higher than the average in BT/Hyjal).

MH: 2.6 speed 100.2 DPS, 5 skill (I'm an orc)
OH: 2.6 speed 97.5 DPS, 5 skill

Buffs: all but GoA, Trueshot, and the bottom 3, T5 4-piece bonus = on, CoE, Scorch, Misery.

Using WF/WF, Totem of the Astral Winds, Ashtongue Talisman.

I also got one AEP value for Haste of 1.0, which is very low compared to the ~2 I usually get.

One other question that I haven't found a good answer for is what I should be inputting for magical resistances. 365 seems very high to me, so I had been trying it with zero as well, which also seems wrong. Does anyone have the math behind what these values should be for accurate results?
#3452SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I thought that other than Supremus no boss in TBC has actual magic resistances other than the base chance due to level differences? Also I've been using 2990 now my boss armor value in the sim.
#3453SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
What number do I need to input for resistances to account for the level-difference based resists?
#3454SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
You shouldn't need any, that should be part of the inherent calculation in spell damage.
- Spell resist rate against bosses is 17%; only 16% of this can be overcome with spell hit [202 spell hit rating].
Boss level mobs have a 5% partial resistance to non-binary spells
#3455SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Opis
I apologize if this has been addressed in the 136 previous pages, but what kind of base model are you assigning these stat weights?

From what I understand, hit and crit rating will scale, accounting for more and more DPS as your AP increases. Or, is the scaling so minimal, as to keep these values true regardless of current itemization?
#3456SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
The problem (particularly with hit) is the Windfury cooldown creates a lot of problems in modeling things accurately. With sub-2000 AP, introducing more hits is a good deal less productive than raising crit rate or AP due to proc-ineligible swings and flurry uptime. As you gain more and more AP and crit and especially haste, your white damage starts to overtake the WF proc damage and normal hits become more valuable. The weights in the first post aren't hard and fast for all levels of gear, but they are good guidelines for the majority of shamans and if you gear in those ratios you'll have very positive results no matter what level of the game you're at.
#3457SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
The stat weights are a rough, generalized approximation based off a reasonable SSC/TK geared shaman. AEP values can change pretty wildly at very high or very low ends of gear however, so you are encouraged to use Yo's sim to help figure out your own ratings. The general form however provides a meaningful point of comparison between shaman when making general comparisons between items.

Is that what you were asking about? I see that Moogle answered something in a totally different direction from what I thought you meant.
#3458SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ztheg
itemization question

Here is an itemization question i have been struggling with.
I have two sets of gloves.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Grips of Deftness

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Gloves of Quickening (Assume max blue gems)

I do not know which one to use for a pve max dps fully buffed raid environment.
I am currently dual wielding Dragonmaw and Merc Glad's Mainhand.
Is the increased mace skill on the first gloves enough to make it my armor of choice?

Thanks in advance
#3459SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Grips of Deftness will come out ahead on AEP values once you factor in the Hit % from the weapon skill. Without even considering the weapon skill the Deftness are 112 AEP vs 120 for the Quickening, so you can be sure they'll come out on top, especially if your pvp weapon is the Mace/fist and not the axe.
#3460SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
You need 5 skill to hit the magic +3% hit -- those gloves aren't enough for that on their own. The 3.8 weapon skill is only worth 18.9 hit rating, so do your AEP from there.
#3461SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
1.2% Hit = 1.2 * 15.76 = 18.912 ---> 18.912 * 1.4 = 26.4768. Add that to the value above and the Deftness win.

Sort of related to this... Is it possible that someone could write a firefox plugin or something that would produce AEP values in tooltips from wowhead or thottbot?

Last edited by Malan : 10/09/07 at 1:49 PM.
#3462SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
Malan you said something a few posts back about not using max rank WF totem.
I've been using Max rank WF with no issue in my twisting at all. I don't generally shock every cooldown, but do so a decent amount. SR tends to keep the party going and I don't have JOW on most fights.
#3463SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Hmm. I tried it last week with the Enhancer addon and using max ranks of WF/GoA and on an SSC trash pull with no shocks my mana bar was empty way before all the mobs were dead.
#3464SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Hmm. I tried it last week with the Enhancer addon and using max ranks of WF/GoA and on an SSC trash pull with no shocks my mana bar was empty way before all the mobs were dead.
Totemic Focus helps a ton. I don't think I'd even consider doing a twisting rotation without it.
#3465SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it.
I do wish people would stop saying this. For every fight in the game which I've been a part of (through Archimonde and Supremus), I twist max rank GOA and max rank Windfury Totem with an earth shock thrown in just before my cooldowns are up for good measure. Shamanistic Rage and (occasionally if I really need it; for example, get death and decay on the melee in the middle of shamanistic rage) a mana potion is more than enough to sustain one shock per 10 seconds + twisting with max ranks. The only fight I -don't- twist or use shocks is Kaz'rogal, and that's because I frequently don't resist more than 1 or 2 Marks, even wearing some shadow resist.

Edit to add: I also frequently don't get BoW and maybe 1% of the time get JoW, so those don't quite account for it either. Also, yeah, Totemic Focus is probably the only way this can work, but even without it I imagine you'd be fine if you didn't shock at all. That Tranquil Air or GoA on some fights is going to be better for the raid's damage than a single shock.
#3466SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
"Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it."



I have always used max rank totems with twisting wf/goa or wf/ta depending on which of our tanks are there and use my earth shock/ flame shock macro the whole time and have no mana issues at all. The only fight I cant really twist on so far is Kaz'ragol for obvious reasons. We also run a Ret pally so bow/jow is always up. I don't twist for trash but well it's trash who cares.
#3467SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
It gets said because that's what the original argument against it was - that people were using Rank 1 WF Totem just for the extra attack and ignoring the additional AP bonuses on higher ranks.
#3468SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
I was using Rank2 and had light shocking usage for most of last night. I ran dry pretty quick that way on trash packs. Bosses weren't that bad though, since SR would do better for me on them (buffs were always out) and I could mana pot without feeling like I was wasting them.

It also might have helped if I were in the melee group instead of a tank group. On the other hand, that's why they had a spot for me last night. Warrior Tank and Druid Tank, I was there to twist for them.
#3469SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It gets said because that's what the original argument against it was - that people were using Rank 1 WF Totem just for the extra attack and ignoring the additional AP bonuses on higher ranks.
The fact remains that it is clearly untrue and it's just spreading disinformation to repeat it. With proper talents, twisting max rank GoA/WF is clearly sustainable even without JoW. I always used shocks based on what my current mana supply allowed and used mana pots every so often. Never have I felt that I was running dry with just totem twisting.
#3470SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
Wow tone down the aggression Aett.

Disinformation is a little harsh. Just a difference of opinion and experiences.
I usually ran with 3 in totemic focus and switched to 5 and it helps a lot and makes max ranks Twisting possible (without JOW/BOW). I think YMMV here based on mana pool and Ap for Shamanistic Rage, but it seems to work for most. It's all about finding a twist pattern you are comfortable with, which trash packs it works when to just use WF. Just takes a little attention to detail and makes shamans more interesting than the 3 button hits every 12 seconds that we are now, IMO.
#3471SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
It may be untrue and 'disinformation', but this is seriously the first time I've heard that people are not using low ranks of WF Totem, and you guys know that I keep up with every post in this thread. If its been spread, its been spread because that's what people were doing the totem twisting posted here originally.
#3472SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Can someone please let me know where I did my math wrong? I was trying to model the twisting in terms of mana, and I can't see how it would be sustainable with max rank totems and shocking every time they're up, but maybe I'm calculating something wrong or forgetting some key talents/skills.

Or maybe I'm just plain bad at math. From what I can tell, a shaman with Aett's stats will be spending 17.4k mana every 2 minutes. Given that this would be more than 2 times his mana pool, I don't see how even shamanistic rage would be able to keep this up. Though, perhaps if you got 2 full mana pools worth from shamanistic rage, and also potted for another 2k, you could skate by if you were willing to accept that you would be bone dry for part of it.

Comments? See screenshot attached.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg twist_mana.jpg (67.7 KB, 73 views)
#3473SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
I also, excitedly, tried totem twisting a long time back and said it was not viable due to GCD issues, and that's been proven false as well. It comes down to personal experience. Depending on available paladins, I will also run dry pretty quickly. If JoW isn't up on the mob (sweeping generalizations aside about how it should "always" be up) I can't make it work, personally. I think this may change come 2.3, but until then I think twisting is a personal experience thing. I don't twist, still, because I lean more to the back-up healing play style, than full DPS. Out of mana means out of options.

If Malan seems like he speaks the gospel in his tone, it's because that's usually the case. The petty bickering should be left on the bliz forums.
#3474SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Can someone please let me know where I did my math wrong? I was trying to model the twisting in terms of mana, and I can't see how it would be sustainable with max rank totems and shocking every time they're up, but maybe I'm calculating something wrong or forgetting some key talents/skills.

Or maybe I'm just plain bad at math. From what I can tell, a shaman with Aett's stats will be spending 17.4k mana every 2 minutes. Given that this would be more than 2 times his mana pool, I don't see how even shamanistic rage would be able to keep this up. Though, perhaps if you got 2 full mana pools worth from shamanistic rage, and also potted for another 2k, you could skate by if you were willing to accept that you would be bone dry for part of it.

Comments? See screenshot attached.
You can't shock every time it's up with max rank totems. I think I get 15 shocks off on a 3 minute fight, which are reduced to earth now because of arcane mages and debuff limits :\.
#3475SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
I think your math looks right. I don't think most people religiously shock as part of a max rank totem twisting rotation. I used to have a Earth Shock written into the macro to occur once every 10 seconds, but took that out as the burn rate was too much without JOW.

I know I throw in a shock here and there, but I sacrifice that DPS to enhance my party (my DPS is partly offset by the increase in crit I get while GOA is down). Been meaning to model what the difference is factoring GOA buffs, but been way too lazy.

Twisting to me is about helping the party that much more given our role. So downranking just wouldn't feel appropriate to me at least.
#3476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk View Post
"Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it."



I have always used max rank totems with twisting wf/goa or wf/ta depending on which of our tanks are there and use my earth shock/ flame shock macro the whole time and have no mana issues at all.
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
#3477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
#3478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
^, 221 with mental quickness for SS. 234? without.
#3479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
#3480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
Twisting to me is about helping the party that much more given our role. So downranking just wouldn't feel appropriate to me at least.
In argument for downranking WF Totem: The benefit gained from the extra hit is far greater than the additional attack power on that extra hit. If the downranking lets you sustain the twisting longer, or get more shocks in, I think that the downranked totem would come out on top. I don't have the math to back that up, but the AP bonus gained remains constant, and as gear scales, the important thing becomes the extra hit.
#3481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Rapparee
I swear my stormstrike is in the 200s for mana consumption.

That drops your two minute values to 14k-ish mana spent.

On trash, I spend a lot of time running, chasing ghouls, chasing dogs, standing in damn ice from shoulder-winking orcs as they saunter off, so that saves some mana.

For bosses (kaz'rogal not included, and i've not faced anyone past teron/gurtogg yet), I find that due to random heals, silences, aoe and so on, that I rarely get to fully utilize stormstrike and earth shock. I never get to cast flame shock on a boss.

So while I agree that your cycle sounds incredibly harsh for two minutes. It's not really something I get to experience in full force for 2 minutes at a time. There is always some time spent running for me at least.
On Teron and Akama, I do have to chug supermana potions as soon as cooldown is up, since I do in fact just stand in place for the most part. On most other bosses, I drink supermana every so often. In a normal night of 4.5 hours raiding, I drink between 4 and 10.

That said, I'm one of those drop max WF, GoA, SS.... randomly throw in an ES. And I don't have mana problems with my lackluster gear.

Once 2.3 hits and I start forcing ES full time, maybe i'll remember your clever trick of less than max WF totem. I look forward to being mana limited.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/09/07 at 4:15 PM.
#3482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Unaz
I've been gradually starting to twist more on certain fights where there's not a lot of movement, but typically I will do it until I am about 30% mana, and then will stop twisting and jsut keep up WF. And only ss/shocking from there until I have my mana back.

Of course, if I really need to start cranking it out, I could start chugging mana pots like other caster classes. I think most enhancement shamans now are sliding in to the comfortable zone of not having to use super pots much at all, or only in emergencies (after a res/mana drain). I know I can usually get by with just the cheap combat pots for the most part, although I have supers as well jsut in case.


Also, max rank talented windfury totem is 457 (502 with UR?) more AP then untalented rank 1 Windfury totem. Which isn't exactly a difference to ignore over the duration of a fight.

Last edited by Unaz : 10/09/07 at 4:17 PM.
#3483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
I looked into it a bit more and the values are lower. You subtract the base int as well from your unbuffed int(took off all of my gear with int to find #), so with 4529 mana and 109 paper doll int it looks like:

4529-(109*15)=2894, 2894*.08=231.52 for SS mana cost, 231.52/1.06=218.4 for SS mana cost with Mental Quickness. These values are like 2 off of the total which I guess has to do with exact #s somewhere, but going off of listed SS cost and backwards math that's about as close as I can get to the 221 it costs me to SS.
#3484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Hey, thanks a bunch rava. I don't usually do much with spell casting and mana. Obviously it shows :-\ I appreciate the explanation.
#3485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
#3486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Here is a wws for Gorefiend kill after posting the previous ones there are some down times in those due to being slept on Anetheron and not needing to drop totems or shock during Naj shield. Gorefiend and Akama are the only 2 fights I can think of atm that we have completed (Hyjal cleared working on council) that you can stand there and dps 100% of the time as long as you dont get the debuff on gorefiend and well akama is less then a min if you have a mana issue there you need to reroll. All the other fights seem to have downtime in them or you are in resist gear


Shamshokk - WWS
#3487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Yeah that WWS parse of Gorefiend is a real good example of just how much JoW shines. It seems that on most fights where we need it our paladins remember to keep JoL up but never JoW.
#3488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I had an encounter related question here, how do other Shamans experience Kaz'Rogal? I hate him with a passion and I just don't seem to be able to find a way to do better DPS on him. One time I'll go OOM, the other time I'll be spammed with Cripples.

Do others use full Shadow Res on him or? Does it help to resist Cripple? And does Living Action Potion maybe remove Cripple?

I've tried both approaches and I really am not too sure what the best one is. As far as Marks go, on the first one I use a mana pot, second one I get I use SR... And hopefully by the time I'll need it my SMP cd will be gone, shortly followed by a SR. That' doesnt always happen, though :p. Sometimes I just have to back away and stand there exploding, which obviously doesn't help my DPS...

Any tips or experiences?

Some parses:

Khaelyn - WWS
I went OOM on this one, didn't resist a lot of Marks.. That was with ~200 SR.

Khaelyn - WWS
Didn't go OOM, wore almost full SR. Resisted all but one Mark.

I just feel that I can do more DPS on a fight like that, that's why I'm trying to find out some tricks perhaps.
#3489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
#3490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
I stopped using any SR on that fight once our paladins started using JoW. Make sure you refresh Water Shield, because he activates it quite often. Your fate is sort of in the hands of the rest of the raid on this encounter. The best way to not run out of mana is to kill him really fast. =P
#3491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Illundai
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.

Last edited by Illundai : 10/09/07 at 5:58 PM.
#3492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Encouraging your feral druids to give you their innervates helps on that fight, too, if you're getting unlucky with marks!
#3493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah I seem to recall Stigmata getting 2 innervates on a fight and not knowing that he had.

Illundai you don't keep water shield up all the time anyways? It triggers constantly, almost every AoE effect (even ones that don't do damage) proc it.
#3494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
I use only my BT neck but my experience is identical otherwise. I usually don't bother twisting, but I do kick up whatever dps cycle is appropriate if I'm safe on mana. Going to try it without any SR at all this week.

Most recent parse using only BT neck for SR. Shabadu - WWS
#3495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.
WWS
WWS
WWS

I think these are the only ones I have when I'm not wearing SR. I used to use SR, but I slowly started taking more and more pieces off each week until I eventually wasn't wearing any.

When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
#3496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
#3497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk View Post
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
Thanks so much for the posts, as they help me figure out what's different between my playing and other people's.

First off, I was in the tank group, so no battleshout for me. That of course affects my SR returns.

The other thing is the twisting uptime. What I mean is - for every 10 seconds of combat, in an ideal situation, there should be one WF and one GoA totem. Here's a parse from last night of me on Morogrim:

Anga - WWS
(and yes, if you look at the other stuff, we had an abysmal time with vashj for some reason last night, pls ignore :p I'm using the anonymous parse to protect the innocent ).

The fight lasted 6min and 58 seconds = 418 seconds, so that would require 42 totem twists. You can see from the parse I had 100% uptime with 43 twists.

I'll thank my shamelessly plugged addon for making this possible I also had 3 fire nova totems in addition to a few flame shocks and the usual fire elemental and heroism mana soaks.

In the parses listed, you had:

Shamshokk - WWS
19 twists out of 262 seconds = 73% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
22 twists out of 272 seconds = 81% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
13 twists out of 260 seconds = 50% uptime

I'm not saying this is necessarily bad (I've never even done those fights, so I don't know what's appropriate), just that one of the reasons some people might not experience the same mana starvation I was having. You spent a higher % of your mana on more shocking (again, not saying it's wrong, just pointing out a difference), whereas I spent mine on twisting, and qq'ing about not having battle shout!

----------------------

Edit, for fun:
Anga - WWS
That's all the trash packs for the night.
255 twists out of 2580 seconds = 98.8% uptime.
I'm a twisting fiend. But, if I want to go on raids, I have to service the tank group, and with a druid and warrior tank, there's really no alternative but to twist to keep them both happy.

Last edited by Disquette : 10/09/07 at 7:40 PM.
#3498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Yea I looked back to try to find a tidewalker fight been a while since we were in SSC the only one I could find isone from before i started twisting but you can see the power of having our ret pally in raid and being in the melee group in the amount of mana i get throughout an 8 min fight to allow me to twist and shock with

Shamshokk - WWS
#3499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
I was pretty bad about it too, had a friend make a script for me that I use with a water shield macro:

/cast water shield
/run local f = CreateFrame"Frame" f:RegisterEvent"CHAT_MSG_SPELL_AURA_GONE_SELF" f:SetScript("OnEvent", function(_,_,m) if m:match("Water Shield") then UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("RECAST WATERSHIELD") end end)

It displays in the mid top of the screen and has been quite some help with all of the garbage I have to pay attention to in a raid.
#3500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Xoya
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
In particular, our guild has the tank standing in the middle who then gets MD'd to. Over the next one to two minutes he drags Kaz'rogal up to the taurens warriors, then across to Thrall. I'd say that between warstomps and cripples, melee lose a fair amount of damage during this time, but maybe this is made up for by getting the tauren warriors and Thrall involved.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/09/07 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
#3526SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Duuberman View Post
Alright, here is a little something I discovered a while back, and I thought i might share it with you today. Pick up a ravager, that axe off of Herod in SM Arm. Put rockbiter on it. Next time there is an AOE pull, whip that thing out and hope to hell it procs. If it procs early enough, it can be a beautiful thing. Just make sure to click off your water/lightning shield first. For some reason that breaks the BLADESTORM!!! (Yelling blades of light is kinda lame, espeically as a horde character)

Shaman AOE ftw. No AOE cap too. :P
Are you seriously suggesting this to be used at level 70?

whip that thing out and hope to hell it procs
Yah that's a great methodology to rely on.
#3527SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
It sounds retarded, but there is merit to using the Ravager to clear out large numbers of NPCs. The weapon's DPS is terrible, but you still get full AP benefit on each hit, and it can hit anything in range with no target limit cap. When there's 20-30 mobs in range, it's far from a trivial amount of damage if you can get it to proc. There aren't a lot of situations where it's useful (the last room of Auchenai crypts, for example), but it isn't something to dismiss outright.
#3528SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
With the inherent drawback that you are using a 2H that hits less than a lvl 70 dagger would, while waiting for a proc. Where the heck is anyone pulling 20-30 mobs at a time that this would be useful? The AoE packs in Solarian's room, that live for a grand total of maybe 10-15 seconds?
#3529SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
I really hope they tweak T6 with 2.3. If they would exchange all the mp5 und some of the int with agility, four pieces of the set including the set bonus could challenge the leather setups.
Why would you think that they will? The idea was brought up numerous times in the Enhancement 2.3 post and Eyonix basically said "qq, some shamans want it and it's cheaper than having the AP equivalent".

As much as I would love for it to change it won't, and the set will forever sit in my bags as makeshift pvp gear or if I ever feel ugly because I made a male draenei and need an amazing looking set to make me feel better.
#3530SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
With the inherent drawback that you are using a 2H that hits less than a lvl 70 dagger would, while waiting for a proc. Where the heck is anyone pulling 20-30 mobs at a time that this would be useful? The AoE packs in Solarian's room, that live for a grand total of maybe 10-15 seconds?
It's fun to spin around.
#3531SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Unaz
I'm not sure if it's just a PvP thing, but that axe used to proc constantly sub 60, as in several times a fight. But I tried dueling at 70 with it, and it didn't proc once over several minutes of auto attacking.
#3532SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Duuberman
Regarding the ravager, yes it is not a very serious thing, and is extremely situational, but it still is surprising regarding the amount of damage it can put out. Try it, if anything, it makes running lowbies through instances a more pleasurable experience. Personally, I use it for the laughs, or if I'm aggro capped on farm bosses(again for laughs), but you still can't deny that it hits rather hard for a level 37 axe when combined with rockbiter. ~800-900 hits, double that crits for me personally. The beauty in it is the proc and how its damaged is multiplied in aoe situations. Try it, you will be surprised by the results.

Again, I have to emphasize that you must use rockbiter in order for it to anything remotely close to respectable damage, and yes, it's fun to spin around.

I suppose I should add that it procs off itself on the last swing. Before BC, it used to proc of any swing, so if you got more then 3 mobs, it goes on infidently, but still, if you have enough mobs going down at the same time, it can be one nasty ridiculous and goofy tornado of death. I'm not saying you will out AOE a mage or a warlock, but it does more then our fire nova totem or our magma totem with no spelldamage. 2.3 might change that, but I'd rather still spin hysterically.

Last edited by Duuberman : 10/10/07 at 4:49 PM.
#3533SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Originally Posted by Duuberman View Post
Regarding the ravager, yes it is not a very serious thing, and is extremely situational, but it still is surprising regarding the amount of damage it can put out. Try it, if anything, it makes running lowbies through instances a more pleasurable experience. Personally, I use it for the laughs, or if I'm aggro capped on farm bosses(again for laughs), but you still can't deny that it hits rather hard for a level 37 axe when combined with rockbiter. ~800-900 hits, double that crits for me personally. The beauty in it is the proc and how its damaged is multiplied in aoe situations. Try it, you will be surprised by the results.

Again, I have to emphasize that you must use rockbiter in order for it to anything remotely close to respectable damage, and yes, it's fun to spin around.

I suppose I should add that it procs off itself on the last swing. Before BC, it used to proc of any swing, so if you got more then 3 mobs, it goes on infidently, but still, if you have enough mobs going down at the same time, it can be one nasty ridiculous and goofy tornado of death. I'm not saying you will out AOE a mage or a warlock, but it does more then our fire nova totem or our magma totem with no spelldamage. 2.3 might change that, but I'd rather still spin hysterically.
I might try this on hyjal trash when casters are AoEing. Bout time shaman get a blade flurry :P(joke)
#3534SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Duuberman
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
I might try this on hyjal trash when casters are AoEing. Bout time shaman get a blade flurry :P(joke)
Psh, better then blade flurry, its Bladestorm!!!
#3535SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
Nobunda, if that doesn't work, try Powa.

If you don't like that, I have a really small custom jobby I put together that's pretty much just for Invigorate.
Interested in your jobby for Invigorate... as well I have tried enhancer and I find that I dont care for it all that much. Will try power aura and avion and play with them and see what turns out to be the best for my UI.

Thanks for your help guys... as well, I got rid of my ravenger ages ago. No intention of going back to SM to get another. It was fun to play with... but thats about it.
#3536SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Bascily i let WF tick for 5 seconds without goa and goa on first refresh of totem buff.
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
#3537SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nobunda
What I typically do... spam my totem macro sequence which consist of WF, SOE, Mana Spring (in that order)... then start spamming the heck outta my twist macro shown on post 1. That seems to keep the melee group happy and when the other 2 totems are about to expire... Rince and repeat.

Going this route may seem like a mana waste cause im droping wf totem twice within a short time... but I would rather blow a bit more mana than have the WF buff come off the groups weapon.
#3538SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Why would you think that they will? The idea was brought up numerous times in the Enhancement 2.3 post and Eyonix basically said "qq, some shamans want it and it's cheaper than having the AP equivalent".

As much as I would love for it to change it won't, and the set will forever sit in my bags as makeshift pvp gear or if I ever feel ugly because I made a male draenei and need an amazing looking set to make me feel better.
Where did he state that? I only found this answer to a question about mp5 on enhancer items: "I've not done an extensive review of the item changes going into 2.3. If there is anything to address this concern, I'll let you know. Regardless though, your point is noted."

Later on someone asked for spelldam instead of mp5 and he answered: "I wasn't referring to seeking out int and mana/5, but they are on many enhancement items, affect the total item budget very little, and do help. My main point was that int and mana/5, in my opinion would be more useful than spell damage/crit."

And in the end, it's not his call. They removed spelldam from T4 and T5, so I don't see a reason, they would not be able to do this with mp5, too. Especially when we now can use Elemental Focus as an additional argument against mp5.

When 2.3 goes live on the PTR without T6 changes, we should remind them heavily about this issue on the forums and with the inGame comment function.
#3539SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
He's still letting GoA go for the full 10 seconds. He just leaves WF down a bit longer so he can more easily sustain the rotation while shocking.
#3540SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yes but the WF Buff does not last 10 seconds.
#3541SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Doctah
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes but the WF Buff does not last 10 seconds.
Indeed it does last 10 secs refreshing every 5 sec hehe. The timer however as all other wow timers rounds down the number visible so it appears to start at 9 sec.
#3542SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aknazer
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
#3543SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Duuberman
Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
Yeah, they have nerfed it a bunch, which is a shame. I used to use one when I was bored in mc back when. Good times, maybe...
#3544SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
25% more swings over half the duration of SR.
But haste doesn't affect SS/WF (much) so it's not a straight percentage. >:

Oh well, I guess it's mostly a moot point by the time 2.3 rolls around anyway.
#3545SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Gwaihir
Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
If you are using the WF totem I think you still see a momentary hop in character sheet AP when a WF proc goes off.
#3546SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Visionnaire
Eh, I don't believe in raw totem twisting.

I don't have macros set up for them simply because I find it is very situational. It depends on the fight. If I can spare the mana, I'll lay down GoA a few times for a bit extra DPS, but by no means will I put it in my rotation for DPS.
#3547SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aegospotami
I've read the main post several times and I understand the stat value of Hit Rating vs Strength and other stats, but I'm having a little trouble zeroing in on the Hit Rating range I should have to be effective.

The reason I'm asking is because I recently upgraded two blues to purples, replacing one part of the Desolation mail gear set and another item for a total loss of 66 hit rating, taking me down to only 69 hit total.

Now, I know the main post says +Hit gems are always the wrong answer, but can that be true if my Hit Rating has dipped so low? I could run Karazhan again next week when it resets and maybe some great items with +Hit will drop, but then again maybe not. My primary concern is that I might be gimping myself by equipping the upgrades I just got, because they take away so much Hit Rating.

So I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, what's the acceptable "range" for Hit Rating for a raiding shaman?
#3548SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
So I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, what's the acceptable "range" for Hit Rating for a raiding shaman?
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
#3549SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
#3550SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
20/30 = 0.667
25.5/30 = 0.85

0.85/0.6667 = 27% GoA time difference. Given that you're choosing to totem twist in the first place, why do it half arsed? Just for the ease of having a perfect 30 second cycle? Exactly what are you using those extra GCDs gained for anyway?

Even while doing a full burn rotation (SS->WF->GoA->Shock), you'll have periods of time where you have nothing to do in your GCDs anyway, plently of time for you to refresh other totems. As for shocks, you can use Earth Shock if the Flame Shock debuff is still up. None of these reasons are good enough for sticking to an artifical lower DPS cycle, unless you're having problems with concentration or focus.
#3551SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
20/30 = 0.667
25.5/30 = 0.85

0.85/0.6667 = 27% GoA time difference. Given that you're choosing to totem twist in the first place, why do it half arsed? Just for the ease of having a perfect 30 second cycle? Exactly what are you using those extra GCDs gained for anyway?

Even while doing a full burn rotation (SS->WF->GoA->Shock), you'll have periods of time where you have nothing to do in your GCDs anyway, plently of time for you to refresh other totems. As for shocks, you can use Earth Shock if the Flame Shock debuff is still up. None of these reasons are good enough for sticking to an artifical lower DPS cycle, unless you're having problems with concentration or focus.
#3552SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Visionnaire View Post
Eh, I don't believe in raw totem twisting.

I don't have macros set up for them simply because I find it is very situational. It depends on the fight. If I can spare the mana, I'll lay down GoA a few times for a bit extra DPS, but by no means will I put it in my rotation for DPS.
That's a very silly thing to say.

What do you mean, 'i don't believe in totem twisting' ?

What don't you believe in? that it boosts dps a lot more than just regular totem dropping?

How can you say a group dps boost is situational? I would say the exact contrary, not using it is very situational, as they are a few fights for which it's not really adapted. But for the grand majority of the raids, having more dps is always good. And there is no better use of your GCD than to twist these totems for the simple and obvious reason that giving this agi to your whole group is immensly superior to doing a few more shocks, or whatever your using your GCD for.
#3553SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.

Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.

You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
#3554SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.

Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.
I think we all understood that.

The criticism isn't about losing WF uptime but GoA! Basically with this rotation not only do you miss out on having GoA down and thus more critchance when you SS, but your group lose about 27% uptime on GoA (i assume previous poster calculation is correct, i'm too lazy to check on it but it sounds about right).
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
#3555SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Tristan
Originally Posted by Shakkha View Post
I think we all understood that.
If you look at what I quoted I think it's clear not everyone got it, granted the explanation was mixed up in 2 posts previous to mine but can't hurt to clarify it considering how often things get asked repeatedly in this thread. Also one of them was wrong about rounding, blizzard is rounding everything I've checked up not down.

Originally Posted by Shakkha View Post
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
That's a stupid comment, that's like saying a small improvment is worse then no improvment at all. Perhaps he can't sustain it mana wise, I really don't know his reasons.

I never suggested he shouldn't twist all out, personally I believe twisting all out would be safer, easier and better.

Last edited by Tristan : 10/11/07 at 5:43 AM.
#3556SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
#3557SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).

The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.

You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.

As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
#3558SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
I didn't even try to get any hitrating, but here I am. I have 121. =/
#3559SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.

You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
#3560SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Oteb
Originally Posted by panny View Post
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).

The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.

You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.

As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
I am always top or second on decursing done on vashij for example(killing nagas. all mages locks melee tanks are within range)
And as for dps contribution. The question is: is 20% more total uptime of goa is better than damage contribution of shocking. I bet answer is yes but only till patch. And only in perfect oe close to perftect group( we often raid without warrior or with just 1 rogue)

Last edited by Oteb : 10/11/07 at 9:59 AM.
#3561SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.
#3562SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lucentia
Oh good someone didn't screw with my browser settings

Though I think having the section titles THAT big is a little overbearing... Though it is easier to find any given section on a whim, its a bit harder to read as the titles are so attention grabbing, but then i am just nitpicking

But, on for my question, I am a newb(as the guild name proclaims), but been reading this thread for a week or so now, so much information! I have probably only read maybe a third or so of all the comments... so sorry if this has been covered.

I know in the OP regarding MH weapons, it says use the crafted mace over the crafted axe (unless your an orc, which I am not) and it seems the reason given is because of the belt which gives +25 weapon skills, but not axes...

Is the mace still better than the axe without that belt? because once I do get to 70... My guild is still going to be a long way from Vashj

Even so, I find myself slightly leaning towards the mace since the proc can push the weapon speed out of the "blackhole" between 1.41 and 1.50 which it seems Heroism + Flurry will drop any 2.6-2.8 speed weapon into (unless my calculations are wrong which is entirely possible ;p )

Last edited by Lucentia : 10/11/07 at 12:04 PM.
#3563SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
If you don't have the items with +Weapon Skill, then it doesn't matter if you use axes vs mace/fist.
#3564SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
There has been calculations about this so called "gap". It isn't detrimental to our DPS as first believed, so it doesn't matter.
For weapon calculations, it's best to use Yo's sim, as linked in the OP.

Edit: To answer your question: yes. The difference is so small that it really doesn't matter much. I believe the mace comes out a little over the axe, but the difference is really really small.

P.S. Capitalize properly please.
#3565SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lucentia
Yeah I know, hit wise it makes no difference, but I suppose it is more a matter of opinion on, which is more useful? The haste proc or static AP and CR, haste probably scales the best between the two... Or is the difference really so minimal it just becomes an aesthetic choice?

**
Hmm, yeah, using Yo's just default stats and changing between +48 ap 1% crit or the haste proc, seems to estimate the haste being better by 17dps... Being a sim obviously that can fluctuate by actual experienced procs during a given fight... So I guess it really doesn't make much difference, but the mace would probably pull ahead very slightly more often than fall behind...

Last edited by Lucentia : 10/11/07 at 12:02 PM.
#3566SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.

Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
#3567SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Vapid
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.


Sorry to nitpick, but would it be possible to scale up the table in "VIII.7.2 Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?" (or allow it to be link enlarged)?

Last edited by Vapid : 10/11/07 at 1:05 PM. Reason: clarity
#3568SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I didn't even try to get any hitrating, but here I am. I have 121. =/
Using T6 means a lot of hit.
#3569SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by drats View Post
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.

Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
Screwing up of me would be quite hard. I got a bar in my UI that shows duration of WF buff. I drop goa when it refreshes then drop wf when i reaches 0. After some practice its now second nature and i dont even think about it.
#3570SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.

Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons

Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.

Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor

Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS

This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.

This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).

If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.

If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
#3571SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.

@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.

Ok changed the link and its full size now.

Last edited by Malan : 10/11/07 at 1:53 PM.
#3572SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Question to Smiths

To any smiths with 2 Syphons:

Did you see a DPS increase switching from Dragonstrike to Syphon in the MH? I got my 2nd yesterday and beat on blasted lands mobs for 30 min periods with different weapon combinations and double Syphon is coming up 6% lower than Dragonstrike, when I run the sim with the different combinations the gap narrows to 2%.

Sims and mobs 13 levels lower aside I want to believe that Syphons are better but I just can't, any insight from those of you who have switched from Dragonstrike to Syphon if your raid dps increased/decreased/didn't change ect?
#3573SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.

@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.
Actually scaling down the DPS should not be necessary for simulation.
I know that my Windfury calculation is a bit too high in my model, but the white dps should not differ that much at all.
#3574SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Sorry, by scaling down I simply meant that he might have fixed some calculations that were making the DPS calculation abnormally high.
#3575SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.

Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons

Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.

Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor

Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS

This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.

This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).

If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.

If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see you include glancing blows here, and I believe Yo's sim has them.
#3651SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
if there was any sort of cooldown, the line between it being better than astral winds would get VERY small. The relic would have no right being purple. I double it would even be useful with a proc rate under like 20% or much of a cooldown. It shouldn't take a ton of math to prove an epic is better than a blue (although that appears to only be my opinion, not blizzard's).
They haven't removed the mp5 on enhancement tiers so i don't i think this relic will be any better then astrall winds.
#3652SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by xereva View Post
Uhm, isn't the Astral Winds totem 80 AP on each Windfury Weapon attack, while the 110 AP is on ALL attacks?
It is, but if that thing is up for more than 15 seconds per minute when you lay on full shock spam I'll be, well, shocked. I'm guessing 1 PPM, which makes it pretty much terrible for anyone that does totem twisting.
#3653SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
although that 160 number you just quoted makes me wonder if the 40% effect to WF attacks from talents affects that 80 ap per weapon number.

Originally Posted by Jyca
Stumbled across a link(which ive now lost, typical) where the stonebreaker proc had been recorded on wowhead and was stated as a 50% chance to proc.
here most likely. 50% proc rate + no cooldown is a passive 55/66 ap (depending on spec: 60/12 (2 shocks to make a proc)*110/10 (ap/duration of proc)
reverberation 60/10*110/10) I think that is the correct math.

I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.

sign me up for some of that.
#3654SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
#3655SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Wow that arena totem is amazingly bad. The only use I can think of for any of them is that they should provide junk buffs to fend off purge spam.

I am also truly disappointed in the new badge rewards. They stated clearly that the intent of the new rewards was to fill itemization holes for offspecs. Looking at those rewards every piece we would truly crave is plate and all of the mail is hunter/resto/elemental loot. I feel bad for the guys in smaller guilds that were banking on these to gear up.
#3656SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
There's not much melee mail, but there are at least a few good pieces (they do have int on them, sadly) and there's a ton of feral loot to steal.
#3657SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
The feral items though have increased armor, so even those are reduced in item points available for normal stats.
#3658SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Galeyra
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
According to a post in the 2.3 PTR changes thread, Orc Racial was changed to 5% crit (I have not verified this) and Belt of One Hundred Deaths is just going to be a 1:1 swap of Weapon Skill to Weapon Expertise.
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
#3659SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
Yes, good point, a disclaimer would have to be made that this is under best case (for the shaman's personal dps) circumstances. Though, with the changes to shock mana costs (through the crit talent) and my change in guilds depriving me of a dedicated paladin for JoW I have moved back to doing full time shock rotations. But the math still holds true if the shaman is just shocking.
#3660SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Galeyra View Post
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
Ouch, that's a lot worse.
#3661SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
berg
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but the majority of it plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get free armor that they do not use and we get nothing.

Last edited by berg : 10/12/07 at 12:20 PM.
#3662SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by berg View Post
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

For example
Rogues and Hunters both got amazing T6 and random drops to back them up.
Ferals got random pieces crafted to their needs
Moonkin got random pieces crafted to their needs
Elemental got random pieces crafted to their needs
Plate with healing on it etc etc.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but it is all plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get some free armor and we get nothing.
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
#3663SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
I am not asking for gear to say "Classes:Shaman" on it.

My point is that fury/ret could use the same gear optimally if it were mail. They dont need that AC, it is just icing to them. They would never elect to tank in that gear over real tanking items.

They do not need to dilute anything. Our dream itemization already exists, we just cannot wear it.
#3664SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Astral Winds: 160 more AP (effectively) every time WF procs, which is 10-15 times a minute.
At 12 PPM, that's 1920 bonus AP per minute
vs
110 AP on shock trinket that has a maximum PPM chance of 10 for most builds, and an optimistic probable uptime of 30% or so at 2 PPM. That'd put it at 2200 bonus AP per minute, but it's reliant on shock spam which is not as effective as twisting for most people.

Keep farming mana tombs.
How the heck are you arriving at these numbers?
If I adopt your method of tabulating things in terms of AP-swing/minute units I can arrive at your figure of 1920 for Astral Winds.

Assuming a 33% uptime for the shock totem I would come out with:
4 Windfury procs - 8 swings at 110 AP each. 880 AP
Presume 50% flurry uptime, and dual 2.6 speed weapons, is 8.7 swings with both offhand and mainhand. Accounting for the offhand penalty - 13.05 swings, or 1435.5 AP.
2 Stormstrikes in that 20 second uptime, for an additional 3 swings (counting the offhand as .5 again). 330 AP.
---------
Total AP contribution 2645 AP-swing/minute.
Not taken into account - Improved Windfury boosting the AP contribution of Windfury attacks higher
- Different miss chances for autoattack vs stormstrike/windfury
- Glancing blows

And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
#3665SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I could test all the questions asked on the previous page and even check out the new Totem's uptime... but yeah, Character Copy is down. -.-
#3666SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Hamilburg View Post
...If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Take it into consideration that it can be possible that lower rank shocks have lower procrate for the relic (or no procrate at all)
#3667SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Affect of Orc Racial change on Weapon Choice

With the new Changes to the Orc Axe Racial, will the Black Planar Edge, be less desirable then the Dragonmaw? 3% +Hit was a significant stat, but will 1% Crit not be significant enough to tip the scales in it's favor?
#3668SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
It would be a start if at last our own special T6 set had the right stats. But even this is packed with useless mp5 and too much int.
#3669SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
Question on Weapons

My apologies for interrupting the patch info discussion, and I apologize in advance if this question has been answered previously. I've scoured all 140+ pages of the thread, but my head's still spinning from the info. ; )

It's been stated that Dragonstrike is one of the 'best' MH weapons for enhancement. It's also been stated that the Merciless Gladiator <whatever> is the best OH. I'm currently wielding Dragonmaw and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, and before I invest in Nether Vortexes for the upgrade, I need some advice.

My thoughts;

Dragonstrike is .10 slower than the Merciless Gladiator OH, thus the OH is receiving the first chance for WF procs after the hidden CD.

My guild is in Black Temple, so I have access to Rising Tide. As a matter of fact, no one else wants it, so it's mine when it drops.

Would it be more advisable to go for Rising Tide as MH, and Merciless Gladiator in OH? The speeds would mean the MH would catch most of my WF procs after CD. Or does Dragonstrike, and the haste, have an inherent AEP value I'm not seeing that makes it more DPS even with the speed offset? Simply put, Dragonstrike or Rising Tide? (Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
#3670SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yo's Simulator would be your best answer, figure out the stat difference for each option and then plug them into the sim on a long time span, run each scenario several times, then compare the results.
#3671SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
@Peterbilt you prolly want to just spend some time with Yo!'s simulator before people start yelling at you

edit: Malan = ninja
#3672SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
lol ok, I will.

I get shaky and nauseous when people yell at me. = (

BBL after trying Yo's!
#3673SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Peterbilt View Post
(Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.

Originally Posted by Hamburg
And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
#3674SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
If anyone out there knows how to write firefox plugins, I would *love* an AEP calculator that would store my personal AEP values, and then allow me to input an item link from wowhead or something, and calculate the AEP value for me.
#3675SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.



Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.
#3851SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I would actually say that your results are to be expected actually, not surprising at all. Because of Dodge and Parry you're taking an overall physical DPS loss over your test, whereas FT will have almost no resists whatsoever.

We really need to stop using Blasted Lands mobs for testing, the Halaa ones would be a better estimate, although I realize the inherent difficulties in using them.
You seem to forget that melee hit chance and crit chance dramitcly rise vs lower level oponents. Another thing to factor in is that armor is level difference based.(i was getting wf total up to 4.5 which usually does not happen outside raids)

But having said that I am off to halaa to try more. go go alliance cap it
#3852SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
Seal of Righteousness actually doesn't use a normal spell hit check. It's incapable of getting fully resisted, but does suffer from the usual partial resists. Then again, it can't crit either.
#3853SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
Offtopic, but anyway . According to Paladin tanking thread, SoR is melee hit, JoR is spell hit. And blood is actually nice for ret, cause you can focus on melee stats and ignore spell damage. I cant think of a reason, why all seals and weapon imbues cant be changed to work with melee stats.
#3854SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Perhaps that's something to explore then - would it better to have a kit of weapons, fast OH for trash and slow OH for bosses?
I think this would be a good idea. I'll definitely be picking up a swiftsteel bludgeon for offhanding with flametongue for appropriate trash.
#3855SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Did the test vs halaa guards.
They are completly inconclusive. The periods of dps before i had to heal myself was too tainted by parry streaks to produce any meaningful results.

first test:
fast oh ft = 724 dps
slow oh wf= 664 dps

second test
fast oh ft= 699dps
slow oh wf=758dps

That is using same weapons as in previous test vs servants
After that i did a try with decapitator in OH and it ended up 658dps. Too streaky. Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.

PS. Decapitator proc damage when using weapon in OH is not halved.
#3856SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Did the test vs halaa guards.
They are completly inconclusive. The periods of dps before i had to heal myself was too tainted by parry streaks to produce any meaningful results.

first test:
fast oh ft = 724 dps
slow oh wf= 664 dps

second test
fast oh ft= 699dps
slow oh wf=758dps

That is using same weapons as in previous test vs servants
After that i did a try with decapitator in OH and it ended up 658dps. Too streaky. Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.

PS. Decapitator proc damage when using weapon in OH is not halved.
To test properly on Halaa guards you need to bring a tank and a healer.
#3857SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
If anyone would like to do a PTR test, I am copied onto the PvP server, alliance. For Halaa guards I should be able to fill either tank or healing position. Send me a PM, and I'll be happy to lend a hand.
#3858SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
ive been trying to get my character copied from 1st day they opened the crap, and I can't seem to get it copied... !!! ITS FRUSTRATING, AND I WANNA TEST STUFF TOO ! :P
#3859SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Ilmatar: I've got my shaman transfered over, and I've got the Ced's Carver I mentioned earlier that I could test FT with.

Edit: name on test is Lyratwo
#3860SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Azaranth
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
#3861SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Oteb, I'm not saying your tests aren't worthwhile.

BUT - it's been said before that in 2.3 using Flametongue on a fast offhand is a good choice for shaman who aren't in top-end gear.

I think you perhaps aren't accounting for the fact that you do have top end gear, but certainly not top-end buffs.

Your 1400AP in great gear is nowhere near a raiding shaman's 3000 AP when buffed and facing a boss. This distinction alone outweighs 17% resist rates of bosses in terms of boosting Windfury weapon buffs beyond what Flametongue is capable of.

SCENARIO 25manBoss: while raiding and facing bosses, slowWF/slowWF is still the king.
SCENARIO Gen.Raiding: While doing trash clears or perhaps in 10mans, it's a toss up.
SCENARIO Solo: While grinding solo mobs, it might end up fastFT/fastFT.

Of the three, killing raid bosses is the situation most of us gear towards because it results in the best rewards.... I mean normally... having fun is the best reward and that is strictly your own opinion as to what's fun.

What would be great is coming up with a personal formula so that anyone can know when their shaman has XXXAP that's when WF beats out FT on the offhand against even level mobs.... A simulator like Yos would be great for determining what you should do in those 3scenarios. Especially if we could choose the level of the creature we're fighting or have a selector (boss/regular mob)
#3862SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
I tried Power Auras and for lack of a better word, it's gross. It uses more memory than any other addon that I have and it's really ugly.
#3863SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Dukanull
I personally find power auras to be a very helpful mod, especially with how proc reliant my gear is. I don't want to be popping a haste pot unless I have my Ashtongue talisman, DST, and double mongooses up. When i was wearing t5, it really helped with the instant LHW as well.

Side note, has anyone done any testing with the ashtongue talisman of Vision on PTR? They supposedly reduced it's chance to activate, curious to what kind of value or AEP people are holding it at.

edit: apparently I had skipped p145 on back reading, 140ish aep and coming below the tsunami talisman Sad times

Last edited by Dukanull : 10/15/07 at 4:57 PM.
#3864SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Azaranth
Yeah, I dunno. Memory usage is not an issue for me, but maybe you're running a lower end PC than I am. I'm not sure how you classify it as "ugly", when it's 100% customizable. Just add custom textures if you don't like the 50+ they offer.

Once I replace another piece of t5, I might consider dropping it. In such a case, a different water/lightning shield reminder would be appropriate. In the meantime, it's a pretty useful mod for altering you when you gain/lose buffs. People using 1g of RAM beware, I guess.
#3865SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
Yeah, I dunno. Memory usage is not an issue for me, but maybe you're running a lower end PC than I am. I'm not sure how you classify it as "ugly", when it's 100% customizable. Just add custom textures if you don't like the 50+ they offer.

Once I replace another piece of t5, I might consider dropping it. In such a case, a different water/lightning shield reminder would be appropriate. In the meantime, it's a pretty useful mod for altering you when you gain/lose buffs. People using 1g of RAM beware, I guess.
I have a very nice PC, but unnecessary memory usage is unnecessary memory usage. The coding is done horribly and inefficiently, which is what the "ugly" referred to. I'm not too fond of the visuals, either, but we're getting more into preferences here!
#3866SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
I am cross posting this information from the Executioner Thread in this forum:

The consensus appears to be that the PPM/Uptime of the enchant is the same as Mongoose.


Mongoose Proc is 120 agi and 2% haste (31.52 haste rating at lvl 70). Using the AEP in the OP, this is (120 * 2) + (31.52 * 1.48) = 286.65 AEP

Executioner is 840 Armor Pen. 840 * 0.25 = 210 (low estimate) or 840 * 0.30 = 252 (my value from Yo!)

Just some thoughts on this: The AEP value I got for AP was 0.3 from Yo!'s sim. The change in AEP value from 0.25 to 0.30 netted 42 AEP. The low-gear AEP estimate is 0.19, which gets Executioner 159.6 AEP. In order for executioner to have the same AEP as Mongoose, the AEP value for AP needs to be 0.34. (840 * x = 287) Executioner's benefits are 100% gear dependent, so there should be a crossover point at which Executioner is better than Mongoose.
#3867SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
As this is a raiding shaman thread, I guess that things like Sunder Armor and CoR are already calculated when looking at armor penetration? (I am just asking as I read in the Warlock thread that -armor has increasing returns) Otherwise .25 might really be a bit low.
#3868SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Whoever has access and wants to help, please post this text as a comment about the enhancement T6(T4/T5) items with the Blizzard Feedback UI on the PTR:
The mp5 on this item is just useless for enhancement shamans. Especially with the new talent "Elemental Focus", the enhanced water-shield and the powerful mana-reggen-ability "Shamanistic Rage", a enhancement shaman will not get out of mana, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put some agility and/or armor pierce on the item instead. Some of the int could also be taken off, as there is always a lot of int on the non-set items, that melee shamans share with hunters and enhancement shamans in general don't need a lot of int. These points are also true for most other items of enhancement shamans Tier 4, Tier 5 and Tier 6 set.

T6 setbonus: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.
Idea for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Numbers count!
#3869SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
As this is a raiding shaman thread, I guess that things like Sunder Armor and CoR are already calculated when looking at armor penetration? (I am just asking as I read in the Warlock thread that -armor has increasing returns) Otherwise .25 might really be a bit low.
We generally assume at least Sunder + CoR or Sunder + FF. It's true that -armor has increasing returns (until you hit 0), but it's also important to remember that if we increase armor penetration we also increase the effectiveness of every other stat (i.e AP, crit, hit, haste). because you're hitting harder with them. When you're calculating the efficiency of armor penetration in terms of AP, this consideration mitigates (no pun intended) the effect that increasing returns to scale have on stacking armor penetration and we've seen a fairly consistent value of 0.25-0.30 AEP at the gear level where armor penetration begins to become available on items (i.e. Hyjal and BT -- for lower-geared enhancement shamans making the transition from Kara'zhan->ZA, armor penetration probably has a lower AEP).

@ SentinelBorg: I love your idea to increase the effect of Unleashed Rage as a T6 bonus. 1 or 2% would be a great party DPS improvement (equivalent to at least 20-40 AP per person in T6 gear) without being so huge that it screams "nerf".
#3870SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
@ SentinelBorg: I love your idea to increase the effect of Unleashed Rage as a T6 bonus. 1 or 2% would be a great party DPS improvement (equivalent to at least 20-40 AP per person in T6 gear) without being so huge that it screams "nerf".
Yeah, would be a really good bonus and worthy of T6. As I see, you have an US account. Would be nice, if you could copy my post from here to the US shaman forum. I'm sure, if we just "whine" enough, they will react.
#3871SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I modified your thing a bit, SentinelBorg:

The mp5 on this item is a waste of item budget for enhancement shamans. With the new talent Elemental Focus, the new and improved Water Shield and the powerful mana-regen ability Shamanistic Rage, an enhancement shaman will not go out of mana easily, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put more melee-focused stats on the item instead, such as agi, str, hit, crit, expertise, or armor pierce. Expertise especially would be a very beneficial stat since we have no talents which help with dodge/parry reduction, unlike rogues or warriors.

T6 set bonuses: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.

Ideas for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Thoughts?

Edit to add: I also submitted this on PTR. For anyone curious how to easily do this, just use AtlasLoot or having someone link a T6 piece to you. Alt-left click the item link, then click "fill out a survey". Bam.
#3872SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
Yeah, would be a really good bonus and worthy of T6. As I see, you have an US account. Would be nice, if you could copy my post from here to the US shaman forum. I'm sure, if we just "whine" enough, they will react.
My "friend" got me permabanned from the official forums since he was using my account to troll
#3873SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tambard
I didn't notice this question or discussion on it browsing back, but I was curious if it would be worth macroing my shocks to equip the Stonebreaker's Totem, Shock, the re-equip the Totem of Astral Winds. I am working on getting the badges for it, but I was curious if anyone else had tried it or would be able to try it and see if it's worth the effort.
#3874SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
Can you change relics in combat? I'd say no, but other classes equip weapons in that slot, so not sure.
#3875SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ilmatar
You can change Relic's in combat, changing them triggers the GCD (only in combat) but changing them does not respect the GCD. To put it another way, you can macro together a spell with a cast time (Such as Healing Wave) and then equip the Totem of Healing Rains, and it will work, because you are equipping the totem after the spell is cast (during GCD) but the spell is going to use the totem when the spell is finished casting.

Combining this totem with a shock won't work, because the shock is instant, so you'd need to equip the totem before casting the shock, and that swap would incur the GCD, making the shock unable to cast until the GCD is over.

Edit:

It may be possible to use both totems if you have a rigorous shock/SS rotation that you adhere to. You could do:
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/equip shock totem

For SS macro, and

/cast Flame Shock
/stopcasting
/equip Totem of Astral Winds

I think this would be a major pain in the ass, though. I have my healing spells macro'd with totems, and it is actually not as awesome as you'd think, because if you happen to miss the GCD, you end up incurring an additional GCD (from the totem swap) and not casting the spell.

Another possible solution is a plugin (similar to ItemRack's trinket queue thingy) that would let you specify spells, and hook into events like casting-completed, casting-begin, etc, but I think it would still run into GCD issues.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 10/15/07 at 7:51 PM.
#3951SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Expertise Rating -- looks like it's going to be a great way to spend your itemization. 15.6 Expertise Rating for 1% reduction in dodge and a further 1% reduction in parry (for those fights where you can't control the mobs' facing).

Seems to me it may even be more valuable than Haste Rating or Strength.
#3952SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Expertise Rating -- looks like it's going to be a great way to spend your itemization. 15.6 Expertise Rating for 1% reduction in dodge and a further 1% reduction in parry (for those fights where you can't control the mobs' facing).

Seems to me it may even be more valuable than Haste Rating or Strength.
Have I missed some items that are worth using other than the vashj belt? While I would very much like to get expertise rating I wouldn't trade either of the other two items i've seen.
#3953SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Shoulders of the Stranger will have Expertise instead of dagger rating.
#3954SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed? I'm wondering whether I should get either a RT or another Syphon for my MH (mainhanding Dragonstrike atm). I'm most likely getting a s3 axe for my MH in 2.3 unless BT weapons get buffed.
Then again, I don't know whether s3 will beat my Dragonstrike yet.. need to do some maths on that I suppose.
#3955SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
It's quite difficult to know what is the best combination, cause if a 2.6 drops to 2.0 with flurry, shouldn't you take into account haste and moongoose too ?
#3956SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed?
I'd expect a 1.5 DPS bump, but on the other hand, I'm not sure why they haven't already done that on PTRs, so maybe not.
#3957SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed? I'm wondering whether I should get either a RT or another Syphon for my MH (mainhanding Dragonstrike atm). I'm most likely getting a s3 axe for my MH in 2.3 unless BT weapons get buffed.
Then again, I don't know whether s3 will beat my Dragonstrike yet.. need to do some maths on that I suppose.
There's still alot of time due on the PTR, as well as them mentioning adding more class changes as the PTR develops. I wouldn't put it past them to give BT gear a once over.
#3958SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
I replaced dragonstrike with Syphon when I got my second then replaced the Syphon with RT when I got that, i'm sure there are arguments for any combination being better, but I think it comes down to personal preference. And I prefer RT/Syphon.
I'm with stig here, been using RT/Syphon for afew months now and am very happy with how high I can sustain my dps.
#3959SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vapor1551
T4 craftable weapons?

I was wondering if anyone has heard or seen anything about upgrading the T3 blacksmithing weapons to a 4th tier. To at least keep the damage up with the S3 weapons, otherwise would there be a reason to not DW the S3 weapons?
#3960SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by vapor1551 View Post
I was wondering if anyone has heard or seen anything about upgrading the T3 blacksmithing weapons to a 4th tier. To at least keep the damage up with the S3 weapons, otherwise would there be a reason to not DW the S3 weapons?
Since the season 3 itemization is where Tier 6 would be, you likely won't see this until the Sunwell.
#3961SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
It probably has something to do with how a 2.6 drops to exactly 2.0 speed when flurried, which is one of the sweet spots for WF proc rate.
Possibly, but what about when considering the added effects of passive haste? With the passive haste I currently have equipped, my 2.8 speed weapon goes down to 2.63, so wouldn't two 2.8 speed weapons hasted to ~2.6 be equivalent or better than 2.6/2.8? Perhaps not, if we're considering that we -don't- want the offhand to proc as often as the mainhand. They should clearly introduce a 2.9 speed offhand just for enhancement shamans.
#3962SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
2.63 doesn't cleanly divide in to 6. Even with a double mongoose proc up, you're not dead on the 2.0 sweet spot when flurried.

If you had a 2.7, on the other hand...
#3963SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Sorry why is 2.0 the sweet spot? (probably being stupid here) I would have thought 1.5 would the sweet spot.
#3964SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
2.0 would be sweet spot i guess for additional Bloodlust to stay above 1.5? Otherwise no idea really.
#3965SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Shoulders of the Stranger will have Expertise instead of dagger rating.
Great another item that cannot be gained unless you still go SSC, I hope they introduce some way for shaman to get expertise (replace toughness or anticipation) or create some new items in a decent instance.

Originally Posted by Atren View Post
2.0 would be sweet spot i guess for additional Bloodlust to stay above 1.5? Otherwise no idea really.
Not really, it has been proven that there is no overall dps loos from dropping below 1.5, it was just a hypothetical situation.
#3966SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
2+2+2 = 6, which means that if the first swing procs WF then the third swing in the sequence is eligible to proc WF the instant it is up.
#3967SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
2+2+2 = 6, which means that if the first swing procs WF then the third swing in the sequence is eligible to proc WF the instant it is up.
Anywhere between 1.5-2.0 has that chance though doesn't it?
#3968SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
WoW Forums -> Enhancement Shaman T6 needs your love.
#3969SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Have I missed some items that are worth using other than the vashj belt? While I would very much like to get expertise rating I wouldn't trade either of the other two items i've seen.
I haven't looked at all at the math, but the expertise/hit-rating trinket looks interesting.
Brooch of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft

48 stam
21 expertise
22 hit rating

That's a lot of swing-connecting love in one trinket. 1.35% of all attacks (from the expertise), and an additional 1.41% of white attacks (from the hit)
#3970SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Brooch of Deftness
Binds when picked up
Neck
+48 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 22.
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 21.

You mean neck.
#3971SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Anywhere between 1.5-2.0 has that chance though doesn't it?
If I've got a 2.0 weapon (which really means, I've got a 2.6 weapon flurried) in both the main hand and the offhand my swing pattern will look like this if I don't synchronize the attacks:

MH - 1 sec delay - OH - 1 sec delay - MH - 1 sec delay - OH
Basically, swings evenly occurring at 1.0 intervals. What this means is that as soon as WF's timer expires, you swing and that swing is eligible to proc Windfury. With an insane streak of luck, you could go MH-OH-MH-OH in the span of 12 seconds. Adding or removing any time to this introduces dead time in which you're landing swings that are either too early (in the case of Mongoose) or too late (in the case of a 2.7 or 2.8) and you aren't making optimum use of the WF timer. There's further issue introduced when you're mixing speeds, as you'll cyclically have one weapon or the other as "dominant" in their swing-first chance, which can lead to very streaky results.

Naturally the fact that Flurry isn't up all the time screws with this horribly and means you'll never really see this, but it's the reason that 2.0 is such a hot spot when you can keep Flurry up for any period of time.
#3972SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
My main intent in discussing this is to figure out why people are, in practice, seeing larger DPS gains using 2.6/2.8 vs. 2.8/2.8 so what we can decide whether S3/S3 is going to be better or worse than S3/Syphon when Arena Season 3 comes out.
I still feel that 2.8/2.6 is slightly superior to 2.6/2.8. This does assume your waiting for WF timer to SS though, but that has also been shown to be higher damage then SSing right away.
#3973SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Great another item that cannot be gained unless you still go SSC, I hope they introduce some way for shaman to get expertise (replace toughness or anticipation) or create some new items in a decent instance.
unless they fix our tier 0 (or tier 1 if you like) talents, the typical spec that would pick up both the new 5 pt talent and retain all the points we normally put in resto would be hard to maintain. A talent that good would be hard to pass up, if it was in anticipation that was changed, the basic spec is maintained while dropping guardian totems and weapon totems. In any case I would wish they would give us at least a weak version of the talents that reduce the offhand damage penalty.
#3974SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Just out of curiosity, since 14 ap == 1dps, why haven't we re-calculated weapons to include this in our AEP? Feel free to ridicule me mercilessly if this was answered somewhere back in the thread. If it's just because no one has bothered to do it, I'll take the time and make the conversions.
#3975SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
14ap = 1 dps if all you do is autoattack with 100% hit rate, 0% dodges/parries, 0% blocks, no glancing blows, 0% crit rate, and single wield weapons.
#4076SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
#4077SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by rava View Post
No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.
And shamans with full EF were getting 600 heals from crusader enchant.. good old times.
#4078SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Freyalis
Ah yes those were the days, ZHC + Ancient Hakkari Manslayer was a pretty brutal combo aswell heheh, both easily available from ZG
#4079SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Neithan
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
Interesting. Thanks for your answer.

(Time to do some more calculations).

Altough:

Coefficients
Strength 2,2
Agility 2,05
Red Socket 17,6
Yellow Socket 17,24
Blue Socket 8,8
Hit Rating 1,84
Critical Strike Rating 2,11
Haste Rating 1,94
Attack Power 1
Ignore Armor 0,32
Expertise Rating 2,484

Last edited by Neithan : 10/19/07 at 10:08 AM.
#4080SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
To the guy asking about hit rating and WF procs - I suggest you read this article. Attack tables and you - WOW Insider

I've added the weapon DPS AEP values, along with an example comparison of Netherbane vs Merciless Gladiator weapons, and updated Panny's calculations on Stonebreaker.

Last edited by Malan : 10/19/07 at 10:31 AM.
#4081SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Pitbuller
I did have some extra time today and I double checked my math with Wdps aep.
I used Base line 2*2.6s*100dps weapons(easier to compare), 30%crit, 18% hit, 1500ap, 4400 armor, 2*mongoose, totem of astral winds, RED, BoM, MotW, soe, flask of resentless assault. No shocks nor 2.3. (Those are listed that yuo can check my test result if you want. I think if you use different values you should get same result anyway.)


result from YO's simulator.
scaling Mh wDPS and AP:

AP     MhWdps   Total DPS
652     200       980
1076    150       981
1500    100       979
1924     50       979
2348      0       978
scaling Oh wDPS and AP:

AP     Oh Wdps   Total DPS
1076    200       978
1288    150       979
1500    100       979
1712     50       979
1924      0       980
All result show that 1wDPS to MH8.48aep and Oh 4.24aep is less than 1% wrong when using same speed weapons.

EDIT: finally its readable.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/19/07 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Messy
#4082SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I'm not sure I understand your chart. You may want to use the [ code ] tags to allow spacing.
#4083SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mindrila
I'm wondering why noone implemented the Wrath Card into simulations, it isn't that hard i think. (Well I have no sourcecode of a simulator available so I can't say how difficult it is)

The card is working like this:
If the hit is not a crit increase critrating by 17 for melee and spells.
If the hit is a crit return to normal critrating.

Stormstrike procs the card.
Windfury doesn't.
Shocks proc the card.

I really don't know how complex this is to integrate but I would like to see some thing of a chart like AEP over Basecritrating.
AEP would be calculated like this: (Critrate - Basiccritrate)*22.1* AEP Valuation for Crit

I would like to see someone modelling this card into a simulator (my shaman has this card and it's really hard to say if its worth it or not, so a simulation would be nice)
#4084SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Jerem
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/19/07 at 11:36 AM.
#4085SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
#4086SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.

Any update on that?
#4087SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
#4088SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
I'll have it on Tuesday but I don't test things and just run by the seat of my pants. I've heard 60 sec internal cooldown with 1ppm and I'll have some anecdotal evidence after BT on wed.
#4089SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
#4090SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
Just a thought but perhaps some value could be given to this card if you were to let your base crit fall in favor of Armor pen. 2.3 will make Armor pen pretty easy to obtain and that is a nice consistant dps boost where as crit is spikey, unpredictable and more of a threat issue. If you could get yourself in a place where the Wrath card allowed flurry/UR to be up 90-95%+ while at 25% crit you might be able to get some value there.

Of course to make all this work you're basing it off of that trinket, and in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
#4091SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.
On top of that, we have the additional advantage of having access to double Mongoose with a great AGI to crit ratio.
#4092SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Torrential View Post
in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
I think you answered your own question and speaking personally here, I have no interest in pursuing the particular mechanics of the Dark Moon card.
#4093SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Thanks, thats somewhat what I heard aswell, that'll have to do until it's being tested properly when more people get exalted
#4094SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Has the ring been changed in 2.3? Tooltip in-game still says 10 sec duration atleast so that'd be:
160 * 10 / 60 = ~26.7 AEP
#4095SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
#4096SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Yasuhiko View Post
On to my main topic: I have a question. Using enhancer, with "best possible gems," on the PTR, I get an AEP of ~250 for the Cyclone Helm, but live gives me an esimated AEP of 175. Is there a reason for this? Is it a change to RED?
Most likely you are not including either meta gems or gem estimates on Live. Meta gem slots or in reality RED in the meta slot will have 75 AEP added to it's value if gem estimates and meta gems are checked since Increase Critical Damage 3% isn't a pure stat that can't be multiplied with output from ItemBonusLib.
#4097SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Is anyone working on a definitive stat weight for weapon expertise?


I grabbed the shoulder pads of the stranger last night to see how it works out. Now to re-copy myself to test. I would be replacing the T5 shoulders so I struggle to think they would be better. On the other hand I have no Expertise rating on any other items, as with most stats, I'm sure the first couple of points will make the most difference.

There is nothing worse than seeing that MH WF proc come up:

DODGE
DODGE
#4098SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
#4099SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
Yes realized that . After doing some calculations it seems that Z'A/badge loot is close to T6.
#4100SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
Thanks for the value.

After looking at it, this makes the Shoulderpads of the Stranger a no brainer over the T5 shoulder until you can get the 4 piece bonus.

Yet another piece of my set to get shelfed for a better leather item.

WTS MP5
#4126SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
I been thinking about T6 and expertise. Since hunters do not benefit from expertise we probably will not see any random mail with it. However, T6 is class specific so it would not be 'wasted' there. It would be perfect replacement to MP5/s imo. I dont know how much would we get for the MP5/s we have altough, does anyone know the cost in item budget for expertise?
#4127SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
I have seen several comments here that refer to how much of a waste it is to pick up the T5 shoulders. I have to disagree. The stats on this item by itself, and gemmed, are about 210.6 for me. It helps me meet RED gem requirements, and until I get at least 4 BT/Hyjal pieces or 4/5 T6, the 4-piece set bonus on T5 is worth about 110AEP for me.

I have been using Bow-stitched Leggings and T5 in the other slots. Even though I have Mail of Fevered Pursuit and Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, swapping them out would still result in a net DPS loss due to losing 4/5 T5. Until I can grab Grips of Damnation and Midnight Chestguard or Cursed Vision of Sargeras, I'll be hanging on to that 4-piece bonus.
#4128SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zhanos
What about 'Hand of Justice'?

I know Hand of Justice is a lower level trinket, but chance on hit an additional attack is pretty damn sweet, it also gives 20 AP.

My shaman when enhance (like at the time of this post) really gets alot of proc's, I would say at least 1-2 every farm mob, I dont raid with him much as enhance, so couldn't tell you its quality there.

And an addional attack can yeild me 300-2500 damage, especially if WF proc's off it.
While some items are merely 'on use gain 280 ap' and such.
#4129SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Neithan
Well HoJ is approximatelly 1.33% proc chance.

Maths please!

Edit: early morning spelling suckage.

Last edited by Neithan : 10/20/07 at 4:33 AM.
#4130SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
If you have access to [Syphon of the Nathrezim], dual wield it. (Put your first one in your OH if you have an MH-only weapon like Dragonstrike, otherwise it doesn't matter which hand you choose.)
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
#4131SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
I'm not really sure that we have a convincing/definitive answer for you on that. Run the sims.
#4132SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Yo's sim give dragonstike proc way too high AEP value its about 150aep with default value. In first page its 92aep.
#4133SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'm not really sure that we have a convincing/definitive answer for you on that. Run the sims.
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.

What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.

If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.

My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)
#4134SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
◊ Kasi
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.

The first post in this thread has a T5 AEP as:

Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings)
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings)
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

Not sure on haste, since the original post doesn't have any info on that. I'm assuming from the example of belts later that it is also 1.4?

Sebudei's who I used for making a gearing list had one of:

Strength: 2.2
Crit: 2
Agility: 2
Hit: 2
Haste: 1.9 (Edit: Typo from Sebudei's post)
AP: 1
Armor Pen: 0.33

Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.

Last edited by Kasi : 10/20/07 at 2:09 PM.
#4135SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
Those values that Sebudai had match up pretty well with mine, except for Haste. I get an AEP value of about 2.0 for haste.
#4136SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Oh yeah, that was a typo there. Haste was 1.9 in his, not 1.4. Alright, well I'm glad I can use those values to work things out.
#4137SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
See, the thing is the difference in dps is really really marginal. I'd say it comes down to preference, I wouldn't mind mainhanding a Syphon or Rising Tide, but we've gotten one Syphon and zero Rising Tide in about 2 months or so. I took the last Syphon and unfortunatly now people want a Syphon for pvp purposes, so I'm not sure I want to bid that much DKP on such a small upgrade.
That and Dragonstrike looks cool! I might pick up a Rising Tide, though - just to see the difference...

And of course it depends greatly on your own AEP values, if you value Haste pretty high, Dragonstrike will get better.
#4138SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.

The first post in this thread has a T5 AEP as:

Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings)
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings)
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

Not sure on haste, since the original post doesn't have any info on that. I'm assuming from the example of belts later that it is also 1.4?

Sebudei's who I used for making a gearing list had one of:

Strength: 2.2
Crit: 2
Agility: 2
Hit: 2
Haste: 1.9 (Edit: Typo from Sebudei's post)
AP: 1
Armor Pen: 0.33

Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.
The numbers are all going to be very close, look at the difference between t5 and nearly optimal gear- .5 added to hit and .04 added to armor penetration. My results put armor penetration and crit a little higher, but if you're just starting out the t5 numbers should be an easy guideline to follow.
#4139SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Haste is there, its just detailed out a little bit lower in a subsection. I'll be changing that around before long anyways as it has some bad assumptions in it (that whole 1.4 - 1.5 valley thing) that need to be removed. Haste was valued at 1.48 for the default set.
#4140SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Yeah thing is I'm not starting out from early T5. I am in a T6 guild working through early BT and almost have Azgalor dead and I raid as elemental. However right now Elemental is looking like its going to be nerfed to hell. We also have no enhancement shaman, only occasionally an arms warrior and not a ton of rogues/hunters. I'm picking up this stuff in case the nerf goes through. So I am able to pick up gear that would otherwise be sharded.

So far I've managed to pick up a Mantle of Darkness, a Valestalker Girdle and a Pendant of the Perilous. I could have also picked up a Moccasins if I had wanted, but I figured the new rogue socketed badge boots are better. From what I can tell the mantle and girdle are basically best in game right now.

Looking at badge gear, I like the cloaks better than anything I can get pre BT (since I won't be getting the BT ones or likely the Kael one).

Shallow Grave Trousers from Badges look nearly as good as Bow Stitched (which I doubt I'd get), the Tabi boots seem to be better than Quickstrider's (maybe not as good as the Mother boots but I'm not getting those), Master Assasin's Wraps from badges also looks to be very competitive with BT drops. I'm not sure on helm though. Obviously I'm not getting the one from Illidan. Maybe the one from Illidari Council if both hunters have T6 helms from Archimonde by then.

So it looks like:
Head: Either one from ZA.
Neck: Pendant of Perilous
Shoulders: Mantle of Darkness
Back: One of the new badge/ZA ones
Chest: Shadowtooth Trollskin or Nether Shadow Tunic. Fevered Pursuit and Bloodsea Brigand's vest are both options too.
Bracers: Master Assasins Wristwraps
Gloves: Fists of Makua
Belt: Valestalkers Girdle
Legs: Shallow Grave Trousers
Boots: Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots
Rings: ZA event ring (the caster one wouldn't be better than either the BT trash one or MH rep ring anyway) + one other
Trinkets: Ashtongue one plus one other. Trinkets don't drop a lot, so it would likely be either Bloodlust Brooch, the one from ZA or something like Hourglass.

Weapons: I like the offhand from ZA since it has good stats. Would be happy mainhanding one of the two BT ones and offhanded Fury. Obviously mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding Syphon would be my preference, but Fury and Netherbane both seem passable offhand options.

Totem: Heroic Mana Tombs I guess.

Edit: Would I be right in that the boots and bracers, and to a lesser extent leggings are the best of the new badge loot?
#4141SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Just for your info:

I found the bug which caused my model to output more WF dps than it should, I accidentially doubled the the full ap for offhand, instead of only doubling the wf ap bonus.

My model is now fairly consistent with Yo's simulator, back again in the <5% range.
#4142SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Well first off I'd encourage you to look at Blink's data in the elemental threads because my understanding is that these 2.3 changes are not a nerf after all. (But lets not discuss that here) Secondly, if you have no Enhance gear to start with but will be picking up T5/T6 equivalent, than use the baseline AEP to start.
#4143SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Believe me, I've kept up on those. As Bink just said today.

"For crying out loud that's annoying.

I bet they're going to stick with the "It's a buff" argument due to the stopcast change."

It's a dps nerf bigtime. Around 6% minimum, shamans on the test realm are reporting fairly signifigant dps losses, although part of that is due to this new stopcasting "fix".

As for the AEP, I'll use Sebudei's, mainly since we're phasing out T5 and any gear I'll be getting will be either T6 or gear equivalent to T6 from ZA or badges.
#4144SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
Executioner VS Mongoose

I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
#4145SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by tzenes View Post
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
One problem, executioner doesn't stack.

Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
#4146SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
Originally Posted by rava View Post
One problem, executioner doesn't stack.

Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
This is only assuming sunders.

Executioner does not stack, however, the proc rate does. Of course this is not a linear increase. I assumed the first Executioner was an average 240 armor pen, and the second was 240*.75

Edit: this is also a lowball estimate, as the second can refresh the first, so it should come out to above the 180 I used for calculations
#4147SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
I think Haste Rating is closer to 2.0 for me too these days. Also Armor Penetration is now closer to 0.40 for me.
#4148SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Paradox
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.

What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.

If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.

My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)

Is that because Syphon being slightly slower in the OH gives you more WF procs? (on the main hand, I mean)

Personally, using Dragonstrike/Merciless OH, I find I get a lot more offhand procs than mainhand... which can't be good at all. I guess i'll grab a rising tide and main hand it with a syphon then.

Last edited by Paradox : 10/20/07 at 8:22 PM.
#4149SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yes a slightly faster MH gives your MH a slight advantage in wf procs.

And Stigmata is correct the difference between DW Syphon, RT/Syphon and Syphon/Cleaver is in the 1% range, usually the RT/Syphon combo is the best due to the above mentioned advantage.
#4150SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by tzenes View Post
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
Vestments of Hibernation is druid only ;(
#4251SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Hi, i checked and this hasnt been posted anywhere, With the new AP -> spellpower changes Wouldn't AP alot more viable then Crit, hit, haste etc in terms of AEP.

Example, flask of RA is 120 AEP, but in 2.3 it will also grant close to 37 spell damage by itself, excluding unleashed rage. Wouldn't this increase flask of RA's AEP value?

I know Shocks and fire totems are not ALOT of our damage, but they are still a fair bit.

Thanks in advance.
#4252SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Badboyrune
I created a little spreadsheet of most Hyjal/BT and a couple SSC/Tk items for easy calculation of AEP as you gain your personal AEP numbers from Yo's sim. I guess most people use some kind of addon to calculate this, but I find it pretty nice. Might help someone out

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

Last edited by Badboyrune : 10/24/07 at 11:02 PM.
#4253SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Philondra
2/45/14 for patch 2.3?

Greetings, fellow enhance shaman.

I've been lurking on this thread for several months and have used it to greatly refine my playstyle over that period of time, particularly with regards to making intelligent gearing and talent choices in order to maximize my dps. I was testing out specs on the PTR in an attempt to figure out what would be an "optimal" spec in order to put out the maximum possible dps post-2.3, and what I came up with was the following 2/45/14 build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Assume that two handed weapons is really shamanistic focus and that we are dealing with the 2.3 version of MQ.)

I understand that the current cookie-cutter spec is 0/42/19, and I agree with the current theorycrafting that even post 2.3 with our improved shock damage, it is not worth losing Nature's Guidance in resto to go down to Elemental Devastation in the elemental tree.

In a raid situation, however, past 3/3 Nature's Guidance and perhaps 1 point in Totemic Mastery, there is absolutely nothing in resto that improves our DPS. Given that in a raid situation, I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast a heal while getting hit by some incidental damage, wouldn't it make sense to drop the excess points in healing focus to get 2/5 concussion? I am well aware that shocks tend to be around 7% of my current damage, but isn't improving 7% of my damage by 2% better than impoving 0% of my damage by 0% and providing virtually no extra raid utility?

The only time I could see value in healing focus is soloing elites (trees in skettis?) or in PVP; in a raid situation, healing focus is just wasted points.

Comments and observations welcome.
#4254SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Most of us actually take Improved Reincarnation I think. (I know I do, and some of the talent builds I've seen from regular posters here)

Being able to ankh 33% faster holds alot more value for me then a 0,14% DPS increase.
#4255SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3GamingManiac
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Most of us actually take Improved Reincarnation I think. (I know I do, and some of the talent builds I've seen from regular posters here)

Being able to ankh 33% faster holds alot more value for me then a 0,14% DPS increase.
I value being able to ankh at higher HP/mana as opposed to the 40m timer. They're both great, but being able to HP pot right as I ankh and I'm pretty much rolling along like normal. Without the talent, I can die to any type of aoe that likely killed me in the first place.
#4256SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by GamingManiac View Post
I value being able to ankh at higher HP/mana as opposed to the 40m timer. They're both great, but being able to HP pot right as I ankh and I'm pretty much rolling along like normal. Without the talent, I can die to any type of aoe that likely killed me in the first place.
I'd say that with ankhing and combat rezzing you have to be very aware that no AoEs are present anyway (or have your health pot+stone ready, but you probably wouldnt have died if they were ready).

Though obviously you have a very valid point .
#4257SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes that's the way to do it. That's the same way that Yo applies things like Haste Pots and Drums of Battle - as a constant applied haste bonus.
It's not completely accurate as using cooldowns at the same time causes them to have an effect greater than the sum of their parts. Since it is simulation-based, I'm kind of surprised that Yo! hasn't added an option for some kind of consumable rotation (Drums+Haste Pot+Trinket, for example).
#4258SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He likely will at some point since he did so for the Shocks rotation. Right now adding it as a static value is the best we have available though.
#4259SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Difforgazm View Post
Hi, i checked and this hasnt been posted anywhere, With the new AP -> spellpower changes Wouldn't AP alot more viable then Crit, hit, haste etc in terms of AEP.

Example, flask of RA is 120 AEP, but in 2.3 it will also grant close to 37 spell damage by itself, excluding unleashed rage. Wouldn't this increase flask of RA's AEP value?

I know Shocks and fire totems are not ALOT of our damage, but they are still a fair bit.

Thanks in advance.
This is something that's kind of a "duh" for everyone. Obviously, you are going to see a slight decrease in the AEP of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration since shocks will be a larger component of our damage and they will scale with AP.

But to be quite specific in responding to your statement, FoRA won't be any more AEP in 2.3 -- since we shamans use AEP to stand for Attack Power Equivalence Points, and FoRA grants 120 AP, it will always be equal to 120 AEP for any gear or talent combinations. The only malleable AEP values are that of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration, and since AP is now worth more, each of these is worth comparatively less, and will receive a lower AEP value.
#4260SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Tornhoof,

For some reason, every one of your new Equipment Optimizers doesn't work for me. When I DL the program and unzip/run it, it says "The handle is invalid." Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss the explanation for this in the other 171 pages? :P

Anyone who knows whats wrong, feel free to respond!
#4261SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
This is something that's kind of a "duh" for everyone. Obviously, you are going to see a slight decrease in the AEP of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration since shocks will be a larger component of our damage and they will scale with AP.

But to be quite specific in responding to your statement, FoRA won't be any more AEP in 2.3 -- since we shamans use AEP to stand for Attack Power Equivalence Points, and FoRA grants 120 AP, it will always be equal to 120 AEP for any gear or talent combinations. The only malleable AEP values are that of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration, and since AP is now worth more, each of these is worth comparatively less, and will receive a lower AEP value.
Ah so the AEP of other stats decreases, instead of Str and AP increasing. ok.

Will the AEP values of the stats in the original post be readjusted? or is it not that big of a change to worry about?

Sry for the trouble.
#4262SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
For those who care, the season 3 onehanders now also have 1850 rating requirements.
#4263SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Luxxor
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've recently gotten my hands on the Blessings Deck and am looking for more info on its performance in a raid setting as opposed to Hourglass of the Unraveller.

The deck itself will prob fetch 1500g+ and we have Gruul on farm for a chance at the best enhancement trinket in game so I'm debating using it.

I guess my main question would be if I could fairly easily have both the 120ap and 80 spell damage fully stacked for extended boss fights. I'm interested to see the synergy between this trinket and the new AP to Spell damage buff in addition.

I'm aware that:

# [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 AEP
At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the AEP might be considered less valuable.

# [Bloodlust Brooch] 118.3 AEP = ( 72 + ( 278 * 20 / 120 ))
# [Hourglass of the Unraveller] 109 AEP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
Assuming a 0.9 PPM

Edit: Armory shows pvp gear, I'm using Brooch/Unraveller currently.

Last edited by Luxxor : 10/25/07 at 11:46 AM.
#4264SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
This was answered wayyyy back in the thread, but due to resists rate against bosses it's near impossible to get the full spell damage stack on. If you resist or mistime one shock, you lose the buff. Fire totems, lightning sheild, frostbrand, and flametounge don't proc it, so it's just shocks and bolts.

I'd suggest just selling the deck.
#4265SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Seidule
Originally Posted by drats View Post
This was answered wayyyy back in the thread, but due to resists rate against bosses it's near impossible to get the full spell damage stack on. If you resist or mistime one shock, you lose the buff. Fire totems, lightning sheild, frostbrand, and flametounge don't proc it, so it's just shocks and bolts.

I'd suggest just selling the deck.
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.

Equip: Each time you deal melee or ranged damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.
#4266SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Tornhoof,

For some reason, every one of your new Equipment Optimizers doesn't work for me. When I DL the program and unzip/run it, it says "The handle is invalid." Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss the explanation for this in the other 171 pages? :P

Anyone who knows whats wrong, feel free to respond!
Did you extract the whole zip file to one directory?
"The handle is invalid" error msg is very strange.

One common error message is missing/wrong application configuration error messages, these happen if your ms c runtime dlls (msvcr*.dll) are too old (or not for VC 8.0 SP1).
You can atleast try that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
#4267SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Bai
2.3 PTR ATM

On the PTR currently, (I am logged in right now) my spelldmg/healing (from the new Mental Quickness) are not updating correctly on the character sheet. It's been like this for weeks now. Sometimes, logging off and back on changes the numbers but they are never accurate if totems/trinkets/buffs are applied/used.

Anyone else seeing this?

Last edited by Bai : 10/25/07 at 1:10 PM. Reason: typo
#4268SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.
Sorry, I misunderstood what he was asking. I thought he was asking about the usefulness in raids as opposed to the hourglass. I guess my main point should have been that there aren't many fights where this card is useful, and in my experience it's not worth the cost. I tried using it in raids for a while (Gruul, Mag and early SSC) and decided that Broach/Hourglass was a better combo.

30% of our AP means the card gives 40 spell damage when it's fully stacked. So in the rare instance that you could get it stacked to full with both buffs, the card would give 120 ap and 120 sdmg. Due to the stacking mechanic, I still don't think this is ideal for raid encounters at SSC level or higher.
#4269SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Daler
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.
Reread his post.

I guess my main question would be if I could fairly easily have both the 120ap and 80 spell damage fully stacked for extended boss fights. I'm interested to see the synergy between this trinket and the new AP to Spell damage buff in addition.
Drats answered his question. Resist rates and the lack of spell hit create a situation that will more often than not prevent the spell damage component from reaching a full stack or keeping it up, as one resisted shock will lose the spell damage stack entirely. As such, there will be little to no synergy, not to mention the lackluster spell coefficient really won't add all that much damage from this trinket.

(120*0.3 + 80)*0.43*0.86 = 42.9 damage added to each shock, roughly 7.15 DPS

And that's best case scenario, where you get lucky and don't have a shock resisted. It's really not a great enh shaman trinket, IMO. I agree with Drats. Sell the deck.
#4270SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Seidule
Stand corrected! Apologies for the snarky "sigh"!
#4271SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Actually you both were partially correct and wrong. He asked about both parts and combined he got the answer kinda. I would not upgrade to it from Bloodlust.
#4272SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
2 questions:

1. Is there some maths for orc changes in 2.3. Especially if its still the best choice to use RT in MH?

2. How does the proc of the syphon work. I think there is no maths on this(??), but just basically?? Is it just more dps or what? I'm not yet in hyjal/bt so i can't imagine how the proc works
Searching this thread will give you the answer to 1. (heck you could just check back in 2 or 3 days and you'll see it asked again, plus you'll learn the secret to the exact amount of +hit an enhancement Orc absolutely needs in order to raid)

Question 2: Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft
Wowhead.com is not this forum, so I can understand how, when you searched this thread for your answers, but you didn't find that link.
However, you mention there is no maths, more dps, or what, i can't imagine. . . which means you did not search "syphon proc" in this forum at all.

Please feel free to search this thread, first and then not ask questions that are already answered.

In order to facilitate searching in the future:
Answer 1: ORC 2.3 patch using RT (rising tide) in your main hand is NOT your best choice to use in your mainhand. It depends on what other weapons you have available. If you only have a Wicked Edge of the Planes and RT, then WEP in MH, RT in OH. If you have RT + Syphon, then MH the RT, OH the Syphon. If you have RT + S3axe, then MH the RT, OH the S3.

Answer 2: Syphon can place a buff on you. This buff allows all of your melee attacks to steal life from your enemy. Stealing life is shadow based. Stealing life damages your enemy and heals you when it works. Debuffs on your target can increase the shadow damage done, it's normally 20damage, but i've seen 30 while raiding, which increases the healing received. Immunity to shadow damage (or random immunities to weapon based spell damage) stop this effect completely. So you won't leech any life from Void Reaver. I've noticed that sometimes Teron Gorefiend goes immune to the effect, but normally I do leech life from him. The proc activates more than once per minute for me, but not quite twice per minute. I get 10 to 12 hits while a proc is active. Therefore i get 10 to 24 *30ish damage per minute. Each syphon I wield provides approximately 5 to 12dps in shadow damage.
#4273SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Difforgazm View Post
Will the AEP values of the stats in the original post be readjusted? or is it not that big of a change to worry about?

Sry for the trouble.
If there's a significant difference from how things are now, then yes, the AEP values will be adjusted to compensate.

In terms of DPS, 1 AP will grant 0.3 spell damage. Earth Shock has a 3/7 coefficient and Flame Shock has a 15% coefficient on the instant damage and 52% coefficient on the DoT. So the Mental Quickness buff will make 1 AP will give you an additional 0.12857 + 0.045 + 0.156 damage every 12 seconds using a perfect shock rotation. This does not account for spell resists, crits, or debuffs such as Misery -- we will assume that with the lack of spell hit and crit on our gear these factors work out to be a wash. This adds up to 0.32957 damage/12 sec = 0.0275 DPS.

Depending on gear level, this may be consequential or inconsequential in the valuation of other stats with respect to AP -- remember that AP's value scales with hit, crit, haste, and armor penetration. As a rough estimate, at my gear level, 4 AP ~= 1 DPS. So 1 AP = 0.25 DPS. Since we are getting an extra 0.0275 DPS from AP in 2.3, this is about a 10% buff to AP, and we'd thus expect the AEP values of other stats besides STR to decrease by 10%.
#4274SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
muSashiSF
Quick question:

Which is best combination for a enhancement shaman Orc player in 2.3?

These are the weapons avaible for me:
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Rising tide
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Rising tide

I have read that only diffrence between all of these weapon are 1-2% dps?
But I just wanna hear your thoughts and recommendations.

BTW im using Gloves of the Searing Grip to get my weapon skill up to 354 with maces.

Last edited by muSashiSF : 10/25/07 at 8:37 PM.
#4275SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by muSashiSF View Post
Which is best combination for a enhancement shaman Orc player in 2.3?

These are the weapons avaible for me:
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Rising tide
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Rising tide

I have read that only diffrence between all of these weapon are 1-2% dps?
But I just wanna hear your thoughts and recommendations.
MH Rising Tide OH Syphon
#4301SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Gartixxar
heya, I an new to theory crafting and in the last 4 days or so I have read all 172 pages of posts or so of this thread, I have found the information and discussion here to all be very helpful. Thank you very much for this thread.

My guild is currently just starting ssc and has downed lurker and VR, and I have pretty much entry level SSC/TK gear with the exception of the pendant.

I did my first simulation using Yo's sim and this is what I came up with

Shot at 2007-10-27
I was using major agility pots,BoM, BoK, MoTW, LoTP, TSA, GoA, SoE and roasted clefthoof for this (what I normally have up) And I believe I input the right numbers.

I did 2 more sims after and here is what I got (assuming strength=2.2 and ap=1)

AEP values of 3 sims
#1
crit rating = 1.6
hit rating=1.59
haste rating=1.75
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.55

#2
crit rating = 1.65
hit rating=1.63
haste rating=1.71
Armor penetration=0.27
agility= 1.6

#3
crit rating = 1.69
hit rating=1.68
haste rating=1.77
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.64

there all slightly different.....does it matter which of these value sets I use??? or should I use the second one since it is in between 1 and 3?

those AEP values seem right to me and I am thinking I am just about avg for SSC entry gear

do you think slightly lowering these stats or tweaking them a little and putting them through Yo's would provide a good AEP base value for entering SSC/TK??

this is my armory if it helps
The World of Warcraft Armory

this was done with BoK included...its 1690 because I factored in bloodlust brooch by doing (278*20/120) which came out to roughly 46 So i added it to 1644 (since theres no choice for bloodlust brooch)

Last edited by Gartixxar : 10/28/07 at 1:33 AM.
#4302SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
My take on it is that since if you actually manage to run across gear that is so close together in those values anyway, they are pretty much equivalent under any of the results you got and its not really worth delving into it much more than that. AEP values should not be the only thing that determines if you pick up an item anyway, Yo!'s simulator can only give you information as powerful as the models behind it.

In any case, if you are using enhancer to automatically calculate these values for you, enhancer doesn't take into account the hundredths digit as far as i can tell anyway, so each of those should result in the same enhancer string anyway.

Don't take AEP as cannon, and values these similar are essentially the same anyway.
#4303SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Zadus
ive read alot of pages so far and what concerned me was the few replies about +hit. Ive noticed other high end shamans like myself dont try to cap hit. So with my hit being between 130-150 am i ok? right now im at 130 something it says in my armory.

Do you think im hurting myself from trying to keep my ap and crit high or am i in the sweet spot?

Last edited by Zadus : 10/28/07 at 2:47 PM. Reason: typo
#4304SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Xoya
The nearest attempt to cap hit I have seen by the shamans that frequent this thread is with Stigmata, I believe. If not him, someone.. I believe at some point that person detailed that their "ideal" end-game stats would include 200 hit rating. However, the first post details that +hit from gear is an added bonus and is never something we should be actively shooting for on our gear. Basically, go for str/crit/ap/agi, and any extra hit you get on your gear is just gravy.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/28/07 at 1:59 PM. Reason: sounding less hostile
#4305SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Zadus View Post
ive read alot of pages so far and what concerned me was the few replies about +hit. Ive noticed other high end shamans like myself do try to cap hit.
No they don't. If they do they are dumb.
#4306SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
sorry i had a typo i meant most DONT try to reach the hitcap like myself
#4307SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Illundai
Compared to some other Shamans, I run pretty hitheavy, I guess. 134 rating, only person higher then me that I know of on these forums is Stigmata with 200 or so?
It's the tier 6... I could go for offset items, which I'll eventually pick up, but I'm going to complete Skyshatter too.
The difference in between these two is very small anyway. Eventually I'm aiming for Cursed Vision of Sargeras in the headslot, Midnight Chestguard in chest and Insidious Bands in bracers. Maybe Shadowmaster's Boots too, but we've never seen those drops >.>.

Oh and I just noticed, they changed our s3 healing set, but they didn't touch our Tier 6... Sigh, we need more people moaning about the damn mp5 on it!

Last edited by Illundai : 10/28/07 at 3:14 PM.
#4308SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Aren't Deadly Cuffs > Insidious Bands?
#4309SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
No, Insidious Bands are like 2 AEP better. =P
#4310SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Depends on your AEP I guess, Insidious Bands come out a little better for me - but the difference is really small.
#4311SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Oh and I just noticed, they changed our s3 healing set, but they didn't touch our Tier 6... Sigh, we need more people moaning about the damn mp5 on it!
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
#4312SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
well they didn't muck up the lower tier sets as well, i think t4 gloves (pants?) have some mp5 and I know the t5 shoulders have mp5 but really its not that big an issue until you get to t6.
#4313SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patrik
Regarding that "hit issue", I've been a little confused for the last few days. I've always been supporter of "hit less important for shamans" theory based on this and previous thread, supported by my own numbers from Yo's simulator. But last week I got two upgrades, resulting with me loosing 20-30ap, gaining 47 hit raiting, which led to overall boost up to 200dps on this week's Teron. I wasn't expecting nearly as much. Right now I am having unusual 190 hit rating but feeling comfortable with it.
#4314SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
47 hit rating and a loss of 24 AP led to a 200 DPS gain? I don't know about that.
#4315SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
That strikes me as awkward too, however I've had Teron kills where I do 1100 dps for whatever reason and then other Teron kills where I do 1400. Don't forget our DPS is still highly dependant on luck, I guess.
#4316SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Patrik View Post
Regarding that "hit issue", I've been a little confused for the last few days. I've always been supporter of "hit less important for shamans" theory based on this and previous thread, supported by my own numbers from Yo's simulator. But last week I got two upgrades, resulting with me loosing 20-30ap, gaining 47 hit raiting, which led to overall boost up to 200dps on this week's Teron. I wasn't expecting nearly as much. Right now I am having unusual 190 hit rating but feeling comfortable with it.
There are pretty much a million factors in this.

A: The pieces you upgraded(previous slot and current), I find it hard to believe that hit is the only thing that you are gaining in these upgrades(haste/armor penetration/crit)

B: Yeah, you are going to do more dps with 47 hit rating than you are with 30 ap. 200 sounds a bit over the top, though.

C: Raid and group makeup. Without any WWS to substantiate this I can't really comment, but it's entirely possible that you had less paladins, more paladins, a ret paladin, an arms warrior, a feral druid, a bm hunter, a marks hunter, drums, or something else.

D: Teron can go pretty much any way, you could be lamed and have your other group contributers get ghosted early on and other times have your entire group untouched through the fight.
#4317SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
well they didn't muck up the lower tier sets as well, i think t4 gloves (pants?) have some mp5 and I know the t5 shoulders have mp5 but really its not that big an issue until you get to t6.
T4 gloves/chest/legs have mp5 (legs are the worst with even more mp5 than the Elemental legs). T5 shoulders have mp5, which make it worse than T4 for me (which means I keep the T4 helm as well, for the two piece bonus).
#4318SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by panny View Post
T4 gloves/chest/legs have mp5 (legs are the worst with even more mp5 than the Elemental legs). T5 shoulders have mp5, which make it worse than T4 for me (which means I keep the T4 helm as well, for the two piece bonus).
Guess thats why i picked up so little t4, cant remember the last time i looked at the enhancement set to be honest. Maybe if the threads started commenting more on the t4 as well it would get a better responce, if i respond to another one, ill try to throw that in.
#4319SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Just did a little test on PTR for those who are curious about how Improved Lightning Shield (+15%) and Season 2 gloves (+8%) stack.

The talent only multiples by the base value, whereas the glove bonus multiplies by the final value. (Also, the spell damage coefficient on wowwiki is wrong, it's 30% per charge rather than 33%). Stormstrike is calculated multiplicatively with the glove bonus, not additively, which makes sense as it's an extra debuff, not buff.

So, to work out the damage from a single Lightning Shield charge:
LS = [ (287*Imp. Lightning Shield Bonus)+(AP*0.3)*0.3) ] * S2 Arena Glove Bonus * Stormstrike Bonus

My dreams of ludicrously hard hitting Lightning Shields... shattered.
#4320SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
Did you extract the whole zip file to one directory?
"The handle is invalid" error msg is very strange.

One common error message is missing/wrong application configuration error messages, these happen if your ms c runtime dlls (msvcr*.dll) are too old (or not for VC 8.0 SP1).
You can atleast try that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
That DL did the trick. Thanks a TON Tornhoof!
#4321SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Currently I am mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding syphon. I sit at 1594 ap 29 crit and 134 hit.

Now if i dropped my rising tide and put on another syphon i would go up right at 1600 ap and lose 21 hit dropping my hit rating to 113. Also im losing 33 stam.

Im a tauren so the axe skill isnt a factor here.

So should i spend my dkp on another one? Would this increase my dps? Im not much of a number cruncher so I am asking kindly for help. Thank you.
#4322SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Zadus View Post
Currently I am mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding syphon. I sit at 1594 ap 29 crit and 134 hit.

Now if i dropped my rising tide and put on another syphon i would go up right at 1600 ap and lose 21 hit dropping my hit rating to 113. Also im losing 33 stam.

Im a tauren so the axe skill isnt a factor here.

So should i spend my dkp on another one? Would this increase my dps? Im not much of a number cruncher so I am asking kindly for help. Thank you.
I suggest you read the first page and use the search function. This question has been asked and replied to at least 73 times.
#4323SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Sorry, I am not big on number crunching so its hard for me to really understand it all. That is why i was posting to see if I could just get a helpful reply.
#4324SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Emaze
Still a little confused on Totem slot in 2.3. Can anyone clarify?
#4325SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Zadus View Post
Sorry, I am not big on number crunching so its hard for me to really understand it all. That is why i was posting to see if I could just get a helpful reply.
The search function still applies to those who can only read the final result.

Originally Posted by Emaze View Post
Still a little confused on Totem slot in 2.3. Can anyone clarify?
Basically the response was, get the new totem unless you totem twist and never shock (and even then if you shocked a bit while twisting, the new totem came out better). But, because they are planning on eventually fixing twisting, I think that would put the new totem positively in the lead.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/29/07 at 4:15 AM. Reason: more responses = win
#4326SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3djaehns
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
i've just started a new thread on the German shaman board. I hope I'll get some support there and not only dumb ass comments and spam. Perhaps we can change s.th.
#4327SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Kenom I'm curious how well your dps is with that hit rating? I usually raid wiht a hit rating of 134. I havent tried raiding with 105 yet which is what im currently at with double syphon's.

So how is your dps with that hit rating kenom?
#4328SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kyuki
/stopattack
/startattack
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
This will always cause your main hand to swing as long as you are only hitting it every 3 seconds or so. When you initiate autoattack, your offhand weapon has a warmup time of half its normal delay before it is eligible to swing. Stormstrike doesn't have this limitation, both weapons will hit immediately unless the main hand attack doesn't connect, in which case the offhand isn't eligible to hit. What I was referring to in the post you quoted was that Xoya was overlooking that in a normal situation where your attacks aren't synchronized, WF procs are typically cyclical between main hand and offhand and using non-same-speed weapons forces this cycle to be broken.

How would you exactly use this macro if you have 2.6ers in actual combat? And what does it do in effect exactly? Are you supposed to spam it every 3+ seconds to make sure that you're MH is getting prio or?

I'm sorry if I'm stupid or something, but I simply dont grasp the whole concenpt and it's importance.
I would like to think that it would simply increase DPS if used in a certain way (which is why I'm asking).
#4329SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
/stopattack
/startattack
How would you exactly use this macro if you have 2.6ers in actual combat? And what does it do in effect exactly? Are you supposed to spam it every 3+ seconds to make sure that you're MH is getting prio or?

I'm sorry if I'm stupid or something, but I simply dont grasp the whole concenpt and it's importance.
I would like to think that it would simply increase DPS if used in a certain way (which is why I'm asking).
You really only need to use it once after you've entered melee range. You're trying to avoid your first hit being with your offhand, since that gives slight preference to OH WF. If you start attacking and you're already in melee range, both weapons will attack at the same time.

If you auto attack and run in, your first hit will be with your offhand. If that hit procs WF, then your MH attack (which is delayed) will be ineligible for WF for another 3s.

If you run into melee range and then start attacking, your MH and OH hit at the same time, but your MH is actually hitting first. More importantly, your weapons will continue to hit at the same time, but with the MH getting priority. That means if WF procs, your MH will still be able to proc WF again once the 3s cooldown is finished.
#4330SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
In other words, don't hit the attack key until you are in melee range and then you don't need the macro.
#4331SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kyuki
all right, cheers for clarifying.

Another question though; what would apply if you started to attack a mob when you are in melee range, and it runs off for a while (i.e ranged DPS overaggro)? Would it be needed to use the macro at that point, or does the "initial" hit still be the one in charge so to say?
#4332SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I always turn off/on my autoattack just in case for that scenario.
#4333SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
My understanding is that if you are out of range for less than one swing rotation then it won't matter, since your weapons will be on cooldown from your last hit. If you're out for any longer than that, you'll want to stop/start again. I just keep attack bound to a key, and toggle it when I get back into range.

As a side note, I suppose anything that resets the swing timer will do this automatically.

Malan, I looked through the OP but didn't see anything in the WF mechanics or Swing timer sections. You might want to add something since people ask about this all the time.
#4334SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Whodi
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?
#4335SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Compared to some other Shamans, I run pretty hitheavy, I guess. 134 rating, only person higher then me that I know of on these forums is Stigmata with 200 or so?
It's the tier 6... I could go for offset items, which I'll eventually pick up, but I'm going to complete Skyshatter too.
I currently raid with 146 hitrating (Illidan on farm gear level, 1600ap, 31% crit) but I would gladly take some more, if possible without hurting other stats.

I used to have maxxed hitrating (256) while we had just finished ssc/TK and been gradually going down from there. To be honest, I dont like my current hitrating, if any good gear choises would drop, I would gladly take on a bit more +hit. I mean, as others have stated here, as our yellow attacks cap rather fast, you should not favor hitrating just because of it, but if you can get decent piece of gear that statweights posted in 1# gives decent point to wear, do it.

T6 is bad. I only have taken gloves and chest, dont think i will ever use more. Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge). Last, but not least, T6 ench chest looks like a dress! Pff!
#4336SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?
This is an argument you don't want to get into. First, saying that something is *best* for any class or spec is damn near impossible to prove, and it comes down to emotional responses from people that removes the objectivity of the discussion. In the end all they'll attempt to do is prove that its the best for their class because they want the trinket. (I'd wager that your guildies saying its best for BM hunters are in fact, hunters) Second, there's been maybe two threads discussing who the DST is "best" for, you can search by Topic in this sub forum to find them. They all diverge into stupid bickering.

Summary: Lets not argue who its best for, its dumb. Everyone wants and needs it.

Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge).
You realize that even with Kings, Agility gives less Crit than Crit Rating does? Its not an accident that Agility is weighed less on our AEP system than Crit Rating is. Strength > AP, and Crit Rating > Agility.
[e] 22.07 Crit Rating = 1% Crit. 25 Agility = 1% Crit.
As an example, 200 Agility with Kings would give you 8.8% Crit. 200 Crit Rating would give you 9.06% Crit.

Last edited by Malan : 10/29/07 at 2:23 PM.
#4337SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
I currently raid with 146 hitrating (Illidan on farm gear level, 1600ap, 31% crit) but I would gladly take some more, if possible without hurting other stats.

I used to have maxxed hitrating (256) while we had just finished ssc/TK and been gradually going down from there. To be honest, I dont like my current hitrating, if any good gear choises would drop, I would gladly take on a bit more +hit. I mean, as others have stated here, as our yellow attacks cap rather fast, you should not favor hitrating just because of it, but if you can get decent piece of gear that statweights posted in 1# gives decent point to wear, do it.

T6 is bad. I only have taken gloves and chest, dont think i will ever use more. Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge). Last, but not least, T6 ench chest looks like a dress! Pff!
I'm so confused on what to think about hit rating. I could go up to 155 or drop down to 105 and dual wield syphon's with some haste gear on. I've seen people like yourself say you would like more hit. But i have also seen people like Sebudai and he prefers low hit rating.

Very confused.
#4338SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Look, its not that Sebudai prefers low hit rating. If he could keep high AP and Crit stats while grabbing another 100 hit rating, he'd do it without a thought. Its not like anyone says "Gee I like having white attacks miss!" and gearing up around that philosophy.

The process is this:
1. Maximize your AP.
2. Maximize your Crit Rating.
3. If gear that satisfies 1 and 2 but loses some Hit Rating, oh well.
4. If gear satisfies 1 and 2, but also increases your hit rating, excellent, its like getting a piece of cake in your lunch box.
#4339SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
You are right i worded that wrong. I did not mean to say he prefers it.

Ok so to clear my confusion why is it such a low priority? How does missing white attacks get made up by having more ap and crit?
#4340SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its not that its made up by it, its that Hit Rating statistically improves less of your DPS than AP and Crit do.
If you take all Hit talents than your SS and WF attacks, 45-50% of your damage are now hit capped. No amount of +Hit will ever improve SS and WF damage beyond the 9% you get from talents.

Every bit of hit rating on your gear goes only toward improving white dps. Autoattacks make up 40-50% of our damage, but when you figure out that its only affecting less than half your damage, hit rating on gear becomes relatively expensive to AP and Crit which affect all your melee damage. Understand now?
#4341SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Got it thanks.
#4342SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Can we update the initial post to put in bold 'do not ask stupid questions about hit rating'?

Seriously this thread is crippled with dozens of post asking the same shit on hit rating. I am amazed at the number of people raiding tier 6 content with no clue on how game mechanics work.

I feel for Malan and others who constantly have to answer the same questions.

Stop asking these questions, just read the damn thread.
#4343SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its already there in the "Frequently Asked Silly Questions" section under "How much hit rating do I need".
Also in the Itemization Hit Rating section it discusses exactly what I just said above.
#4344SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?

We get just as much benefit as any of the other classes. DST is a seperate tier of trinkets and every physical dps should have one. Unfortunately, it doesn't always drop as well as it does for my guild.. I think we have had 8 or so? All but one physical dps has one.

Summary: It's just as good for you as for the others, don't get into a discussion who benefits more from it because that's just dumb. Pick one up if you can, you won't regret it.
#4345SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Emaze
Has anyone calculated the MH value of Dragonstrike? not a regular AEP value, I can see its 98. I calculated the new season 3 weapons to be 1028.973 and 479.45.

*found armor pen value

Last edited by Emaze : 10/29/07 at 2:27 PM.
#4346SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Well the weapon AEP values for DPS were only valid for 2.6 speed, so someone would need to replicate all the tests that Rob ran for 2.7 weapons to figure that out.
#4347SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
I believe a lurker was running some tests with 2.7 and 2.8 speed weapons for his Excel spreadsheet. I don't know if he will be getting around to posting that; I know he still had some work to do. But if someone's really interested, it's not too hard if you refer back to my original post for the methodology -- I just am not interested in repeating those tests now that we have a good idea of what kind of numbers to expect.

Beyond that, running tests still isn't going to provide a concrete answer like "RT/Syphon is better than Dragonstrike/Syphon is better than Syphon/Syphon is better than Syphon/RT" or anything like that -- we know that these combos are within a percent or two of each other. At that point, you first have to deal with the fact that gear differences are going to result in slightly different AEP values for the stats on these weapons. Then, the fact that shaman DPS is so prone to streaks of good or bad luck prevents us from actually confirming any theory that we come up with. Multiple sims or test runs of identical gear can come out 2-3% different, so we are unlikely to be able to say that gear which is only 1-2% theoretically different is truly superior. (Possible exception of RT being a dominant choice for Orcs due to the 1% racial.)

Last edited by Rob : 10/29/07 at 5:15 PM.
#4348SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
People have very strange theories concerning stats and gear for our class. I don't focus on any stat in particular. I determine the value of each stat for myself, using a simulator like Yo's, and then I equip the items that result in the highest total. I don't focus on attack power, or hit rating, or haste, or whatever. I just equip the best items.

It is not as though we have a vast array of items to choose from, each focusing on a specific stat. I'm not choosing between a +hit breastplate, a +crit breastplate, a +attack power breastplate or a +haste rating breastplate. We get like 2-3 options for each slot, and they all have some of most or all of those stats.

[Midnight Chestguard] isn't my breastplate of choice because it has more of my "chosen" stat than [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] or [Skyshatter Tunic]. It's my breastplate of choice because it's just designed better. It has 3 sockets, it makes good use of the item budget by having a bit of each stat instead of stacking one, and it doesn't waste its budget on stats like Mp5. I'm not going to loot it because it's a +hit upgrade, I'm going to loot it because it's just plain better than the other options.

You guys need to stop focusing on individual stats. Use Yo's simulator, determine your own AEP values, and loot upgrades. It's really simple. All of the stats are so close in value for me now that ilvl is the largest factor in determining what is an upgrade. Not which item has more +hit rating or whatever.
#4349SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Here, here.

The answer to the question "How much X should I stack" is simple: Don't stack anything. Weigh each piece against each other according to some scale, be it the static AEP, customized AEP from Yo's simulator, or some personal system that includes stam/int/feral skill/whatever nonsense you think is important.

But don't just STACK stuff. There's no wall you're trying to break through as a shaman, no "zone" you're trying to enter. We aren't mages looking to hit cap or warriors trying to become uncrittable...gear like that as a shaman and you're bound to gimp yourself somewhere.

BTW: my guild now has three active raiding enhancement shaman. Exciting to be sure, but too many for one raid. I've volunteered to swap to an elemental spec on raid nights. Anybody got a link to an ELEMENTAL theorycraft thread?
#4350SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
@ Weapon Expertise

On the test realm, I've been doing a little project. A side result is this:

Disquette - WWS

I currently have the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] equipped, giving 35 expertise rating = 2.25% reduction in dodge/parry.

My melee dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4% total.
My windfury dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4.5% total.
My stormstrike dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 2.4% total.

Looks like expertise, as far as this small test has shown, is affecting yellow damage too. I'll have to look into it further. Also, I'm going to be doing more grinding soon to get a bigger data set.

If this is correct, I'm probably going to use a back-of-the-envelope expertise = 2x hit rating for my valuations.

By the way, I'm using the Twilight Serpents in Nagrand for my testing. So, all 180 kills or so are on level 69 or 70 mobs. The test is admittedly *slightly* affected by the fact that I have 349 instead of 350 dagger rating, but I'm hoping that doesn't make it too tainted to use.
#4451SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs.

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 7:55 AM.
#4452SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.

Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important.
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
#4453SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...

Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05

Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14


So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide?
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
#4454SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
First i was really confused , but thinking on it i know what you mean , but this CAN be right and CAN be wrong. No one can really say that with low hit rating you will miss during WF cooldown and hit during no WF cooldown.

Wait , that would be interessing adon. Can anyone do this ? Adon that will show how much % of attacks you miss while the WF cooldown is ON and how much % while is OFF
#4455SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by daveqstone View Post
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
Perhaps it would help us understand your point if you wrote a small "combat simulator", maybe in visual basic, maybe in java, your choice really, to mimic combat, taking into account such things. Then you could show us the actually affect of hit rating vis a vis windfury on dps, and we could look at numbers and results instead of just feelings.
#4456SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daveqstone View Post
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.
Just to clear things up :

Against a same level opponent you have 6% miss, against a lvl 73 or boss it is 9%.

So when dual wielding it is 25% and 28% respectively (this has been discussed and proved some time ago in another thread).

So with 9% from talents you have 19% miss against a boss.


Anyway if you use Yo's simulator it doesn't speculate on the value of hit, it just simulates a (long) fight, so the benefit of hits in WF procs is already taken into account when the AEP is calculated. And all the results are showing hit is the less valuable stat for us (for example, 1% crit has generally the same AEP value as 1,5% to 2% hit).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 8:47 AM.
#4457SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.

Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic?
#4458SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
Stormstrike certainly can, and will, miss if you have 0 Hit, and it should generally be 10% of your DPS, not 16%, and its not dependent on the weapon speed. If you were using daggers I would expect the damage ratio to be 10% for SS same as with 2.6 weapons.

Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is. Increasing your hit changes the % of your total damage that WF will equate to, and that's all. The proc rate is, with some variation from the RNG, fairly constant.


The amount of absurd logic over the past 4 pages (2 days of posts) is astounding. And I agree with the poster above me. Stop bothering us with posts that say "well I feel like hit is more important." We don't care what you feel. If you don't want to accept the mathematics of the situation, or the simulated combat results that back up our findings, and even the empirical results from WWS parses, then don't. Go on your merry way, but stop posting about about it.

Last edited by Malan : 11/01/07 at 9:28 AM.
#4459SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence

But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits).


The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs.


Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is.
Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 9:48 AM.
#4460SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?
#4461SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.
#4462SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
#4463SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
#4464SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Kombinat
Generally accepted thinking is that an enhancement shaman's DPS is made up, in rough numbers, of about 40% both white damage and windfury, with shocks and stormstrike taking up the last 20%, 10% each.

Generally accepted spec is to include all the +hit talents, for 9% hit in total. This hit caps, and then some, both windfury and stormstrike. You'll still get blocks, glancings, etc, but no misses.

So, 50% as a rough number is hit capped without any more + hit from gear. Given the existence of the 3 second WF cooldown, +hit loses any real relevance. It doesn't scale as well as crit, and hitting more often isn't all that helpful if WF is on CD. Hit effects 40% of your dps, where crit and AP effect 90%.

(Figures mentioned in this post are rough, vague recollections based on my reading this thread front to back several times. Apologies for their lack of mathematical concreteness)

Last edited by Kombinat : 11/01/07 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Punctuation. I hate my OCD.
#4465SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.
#4466SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P
#4467SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Katherine
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
#4468SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
My bad, I was planning on asking for newer maths then those. As in maths from the latest PTR push, who knows whether Executioner not double stacking was intended or not.
#4469SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
#4470SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I just did a quick calc of Rising Tide for MH and OH. MH shows it better than Arena S2 weapons at 978.2 AEP vs 962 AEP, OH shows it about even with Netherbane for the OH at 444.1 vs 447 AEP. Conclusion - if you have Rising Tide and Netherbane, use RT in the MH.
#4471SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner.
#4472SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by drats View Post
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
Please look at the weapons before stating wrong information. Rising Tide only has a 313 High End dmg and MGP has 330.
#4473SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
No, he was right. Look up 2 posts where I did the calculations myself.
#4474SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Quite hard to define the real bonus of Executionner no ? As if i've understood well (and thinking of how armor works) the more you have armor penetration the more you hit harder, so with the coming of new items with armor penetration (in ZA and Arena) we would be able to have a good amount of passive armor penetration, dealing more damages when execuionner proc than someone without any passive armor penetration proccing it ? To my mind executionner can be definetely better than moongoose at some point of passive armor penetration
#4475SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Actually, I goofed on the high end damage. RT has a higher bottom end dps (208 compared to MGC 177), but a lower top end (313 vs 330). I made the mistake of thinking a higher dps weapon of the same speed would have a higher bottom and top for damage. Sorry, common sense failed me that time.

But my point of weapon dps still stands, it would takes a decent amount of stats to make up for a 3 point dps difference for a MH. For an offhand the difference is less clear.
#4476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
I have an off topic problem.

During today i arrived at page 60 reading the thread.
Is there any possibility to delete redundant posts?

There are a bunch of double questions(including mine from yesterday ) it is really annoying to read it.
But if I avoid reading it all there will be even more doubleposts.

To begin all posts I did the last days(including this one) could be deleted without loosing anything.
Make the post to 20 sites again....

I and i think most of us would appreciate this.
#4477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
I'm pretty sure all of this information will be transferred to a wiki at some point in the near future. Malan has hinted at it multiple times.

Edit: After reading the OP, you can probably just read the last 10-20 pages, then use the search feature to answer most questions.
#4478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Boethius is getting some new EJ server stuff set up and then hopefully we'll see the wiki open soon. The wiki will need more fine tuning - I didn't just copy/paste, I took it as a good time to rewrite a lot of stuff and add better documentation. I stopped updating it a few weeks ago though when 2.3 changes started rolling in, it was too much work keeping 2 pages simultaneously updated that each use different formating tags.

Are there any major tidbits of info that I have not updated the OP with? I suppose a real FAQ section might at some point be ok for some of the more minor questions, but I think that for the most part every question you could ask can be reasonably inferred from the info available.
#4479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Kyrious View Post
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap
While it's the cap per stack, there's no global cap afaik. It'd be (Unique X) in the tooltip.

I have 316 in my bank (;
#4480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
So then because I have another question after not found it with search function.
(i am sure it ws mentioned beforebut still i don't find it...)

My idea is that with every haste rating I will have to give +hit a higher rating?!
Say 50% is white damage.
With +haste only white damage will be raised so after that we'll have 55% white damage.
Do I have to give +hit a 10% higher rating then?

Any numbercrunching done for this problem yet?
#4481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Don't try to manually adjust your stat weights, if thats what you mean.

But yes that's kind of the function between Haste and Hit - the more haste you get the more valuable the extra Hit Rating will become.
#4482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Aximous
I noticed on ptr that expertise doesn't seem to scale the same way as hit rating between points and ratings. Hit rating is 15.8 rating=1% hit while according to the character sheet 5 expertise is 1 point of expertise wich is 0.25% dodge and parry reduction so 20 expertise rating would be 1% reduction in parry and dodge. I think that should twist the calculations a bit.

Proof screenshot:


This was the formula that Rob made
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (White % + Yellow %)/White %
If I'm correct then this should turn into something like this:
Expertise AEP = (HIT AEP * 15.8 )/20* (White % + Yellow %)/White %
Ignore this if I got wrong conclusion.

Last edited by Aximous : 11/01/07 at 5:49 PM.
#4483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
As I understand it, 15.8 expertise rating = 4 expertise = -1% dodge. 10 expertise rating, in your example, is equivalent to 2.53 expertise, which is rounded down to 2 expertise. So you're right that there are some discrepancies (because expertise rounds) but multiplying by 15.8/20 isn't a correct way to deal with those.

Technically, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, just to convert it into hit AEP. This gives us a really nasty problem, which is that expertise rating is not only non-linear in AEP, it's not even contiguous: a jump of one expertise rating may have 0 AEP (example: we go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating) while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have AEP equivalent to about 4/15.8*hit (we go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction).

The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.)

Last edited by Rob : 11/01/07 at 5:58 PM.
#4484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aximous
Why I multiplied it by 15.8/20 is because I thought that 20 rating turns into 1% but it seems I forgot about rounding
#4485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Weem
Loot comparison spreadsheets

With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Files here: http://hosted.filefront.com/bemory23

There are four different spreadsheets. "Pre-raid" with default values from the first page for entry raid shaman. "Low Raid" with default values from the first page. "Mid Raid" with default values being my current values. "High Raid" with default values belonging to Sebudai's from one of his posts:

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

Last edited by Weem : 11/03/07 at 6:02 PM. Reason: Fixed links again
#4486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I have updated the section on Weapon Expertise with Rob's explanation above.

It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?

Weem, checking those out now, might include them in the OP. Did you include all the new 2.3 items?
#4487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Thanks for your job Weem it's great ! i hope you'll add S3 Arena gear and other 2.3 items soon, 'cause i don't really understand how to add them by myself
#4488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
Thank for your effort.
Sockets
Blue Socket	
Red Socket	
Yellow Socket	
Meta Socket
This is how thottbot values sockets. Also you can treat weapon skill like expertise.
Thottbot dont count socket bonus like lootzor does but I prefer thottbot.
#4489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Irukandji
Yo's Simulator

Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
#4490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Glayde
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

I thought the thottbot item scoring lets you assign scores to sockets, I use the thottbot sorting to glance at gear by slot.
#4491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Donjo
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
I really appreciate it Weem, is there any chance you could make a 10-Man and under edition though? Just including PvP Gear, Kara/ZA and heroics?
#4492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He made one that says Pre-Raid right in that post.

Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
#4493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Malan: I do have all the 2.3 items unless I accidentally missed an item (I wouldn't put it passed me to do so).

Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.

Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.

And Malan is right about Lootzor. It does work fine unless your item will have expertise, haste or ignore armor.
#4494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bubbahoof
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
#4495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
With the introduction of Zul'aman, "until you're in T6 content" becomes "until you've cleared Karazhan" and so Lootzor is just a pretty weak tool overall at this point.
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.
I think the issue is/was inconsistency in including socket bonuses, and that it has bugged values for certain items (e.g. Skyshatter gloves score lower than Cataclysm somehow and the issue isn't with my scoring parameters). I'm using Thottbot, but with a firm eye towards "sanity checking" the numbers. I really wish Wowhead would integrate a tool like this, since everyone else seems to be getting it wrong somehow.

Last edited by Rob : 11/02/07 at 5:56 PM.
#4496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.
Thanks if you do it altought i hope to see those items in high raid too, as compared to some pve items they can make a good alternative. Anyway don't bother if it's too much work i can work with two different sheets if i have to
#4497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof View Post
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
That was my fault. I re-uploaded the Mid Raid but failed to update the link. Should be working fine now.
#4498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Irukandji View Post
Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
#4499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
#4500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oprahwinfury
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?
I see a missing space.

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 )

This should work
#4526SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
There is some new food from ZA that gives you 20 hit rating: Spicy Hot Talbuk - Items - World of Warcraft
#4527SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Petition threads are stupid and you're stupid for posting this.[/colbert]

It's pretty obvious that the 3 second cooldown is a poor mechanic and no one here will dispute it, but there has to be some sort of cooldown for it to work in a fashion similar to what it does. You can't lower the cooldown to lower than 1 second for latency reasons (and even that's asking for trouble) largely because the client is partially responsible for determining when Windfury procs. This is evidenced by the delay between your normal hit and your windfury hit -- if the server were responsible for determining whether or not WF would hit, the two results would come back with no delay between them. This means that with a shorter cooldown in place it'd be possible to get back-to-back WF procs on a high-latency client (or for example, a client that forcibly introduced their own lag when they got in melee rage of someone).

The ability needs to be re-worked from the ground up along with the other 3 weapon buffs, but that is not likely to happen until WLK at the very soonest since any amount of tweaking would need to be very closely observed, and by and large enhancement DPS is really where it ought to be. We're seeing improvements to talents that suck like the entire rogue Sub tree but this isn't a good time to be meddling with things that do work. This is a situation where "it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies in the sense of the end results even if the method of reaching it is completely ridiculous.
#4528SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Nite, 3 sec cooldown is devastating for 2H weapons because pretty much all of them go under 3 second with Flurry. And not to take flurry full without it is not really logical, and then remains Bloodlust which WILL take it under 3 seconds. Especially for those that raid and want to do some pvp at times too. That is where the real problem of 3 second cooldown is. PvE is fine with it, but PvP is not. I do agree about changes wont be happening before WotLK.

Concerning normalization, you would have to change entire WF mechanics and would end with something like seal of command. If you want that you might as well go paladin.
#4529SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Hey guys!

I've been working on a excel sheet that can help my guild visualize how effective armor penetration is on various End Bosses/Players. The excel file is VERY easy to use, and (hopefully) bug-proof. Check it out:

BeowolfAP.xls - FileFront.com
#4530SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3anticide
nvm
#4531SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by anticide View Post
"With CoE on a mob, Flame Shock will generally outperform the damage of Earth Shock, even with the 20% nature dmg bonus"

why compare flame shock to earth shock with 20% nature dmg bonus? doesn't windfury proc make a better use of the stormstrike debuffs anyway?
Windfury is physical damage.....
#4532SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
WF is physical attack that has no interaction with SS debuff whatsoever.
#4533SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Hey guys!

I've been working on a excel sheet that can help my guild visualize how effective armor penetration is on various End Bosses/Players. The excel file is VERY easy to use, and (hopefully) bug-proof. Check it out:

BeowolfAP.xls - FileFront.com
And unfortunately you have some errors in your calculations:
Wowwiki states that the armor formula you are using is for level 1-59 only:

Formulas:Damage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The correct formula for mobs >=60 should be:
(MobArmor - ArmorPen)/(MobAmor - ArmorPen - 22167.5 + 467.5*MobLevel)

But this formula won't help you much, since it calculates the mitigation of the mobs hits on your armor:

Basically the proper formula of you attacking a mob is:
(Armor - ArmorPen) / (Armor - ArmorPen + 10557.5)

The whole Lvl of the mob question in your excel sheet is not necessary or even wrong, the only important question is your level, not the level of your enemy.
We covered this question some 50 pages ago in this thread.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 11/04/07 at 6:52 AM.
#4534SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Astro
One question - did somebody tested what damage we can perform if use frostshock in battle with KoE and chill debuff on boss? If we don't have agro problem in this fight we can save SS debuff for elemental shammys not for our earthshock, isn't it?
#4535SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
You need to think about that one a little bit more.
#4536SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
It seems reasonable to alternate Flame Shock/Frost Shock if you don't have an aggro problem and are trying to save the SS debuff for your elemental shamans, but on the other hand, there are at least 5 seconds between your shocks with any spec, which is more than enough time for an elemental shaman to spam 2 LBs, so it's not really necessary. Just go Stormstrike->Flame Shock->Earth Shock->Stormstrike and you'll have very few problems.
#4537SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
And unfortunately you have some errors in your calculations:
Wowwiki states that the armor formula you are using is for level 1-59 only:

Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The correct formula for mobs >=60 should be:
(MobArmor - ArmorPen)/(MobAmor - ArmorPen - 22167.5 + 467.5*MobLevel)

But this formula won't help you much, since it calculates the mitigation of the mobs hits on your armor:

Basically the proper formula of you attacking a mob is:
(Armor - ArmorPen) / (Armor - ArmorPen + 10557.5)

The whole Lvl of the mob question in your excel sheet is not necessary or even wrong, the only important question is your level, not the level of your enemy.
We covered this question some 50 pages ago in this thread.
I'm slightly confused here, Tornhoof. The Wiki seems to deal entirely with player damage reduction vs mobs of a certain level, not what mobs armor damage reduction gives them. Now granted I just woke up, but am I missing something here?

For instance:

For level 70 enemies and raid bosses, this simplifies to
%Reduction vs. 70 = (Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)) * 100
%Reduction vs. 73 = (Armor / (Armor + 11960)) * 100


Note that the maximum damage reduction is capped at 75%.
This formula seems to be entirely for a players % reduction from a boss mob. Not only that, but if your formula is correct, it seems to be for a level 70 and not level 73 which is what this spreadsheet is designed primarily for.

Again, the spreadsheet is just an easy way to see how much a mob is mitigating YOUR damage, not how much you mitigate the BOSSES damage. I thought I was fairly certain they made player armor mitigate less in TBC by using the new formula. It doesn't make much sense they would also make boss armor mitigate less by also switching their formula. Maybe you could help clarify?

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/04/07 at 2:27 PM.
#4538SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Beowulf:

To quote wowwiki:
Armor reduces physical damage done against you by a certain proportion. It depends entirely on the level of the monster (or player) hitting you and your own armor. Your level doesn't matter.

In your spreadsheet you are the boss, you just care what level the player is who is hitting you.

The reason is quite simple:

You, the bossmob, have 5k armor for example, your armor is obviously more effective against lower enemies, e.g. lower players won't hit you as hard, but higher level players will hit you harder.

You'll just need to invert your idea and take the other perspective and you'll see why it is obvious why you need the against lvl 70 enemy formula.

If you would take your original formula with a lvl 73 mob it would never cover the case that if you are lvl 80 you hit the lvl 73 mob way harder than at lvl 70, neither does it cover the case that a lvl 60 player would hit the lvl 73 mob way less than at lvl 70, if he does actually hit.
#4539SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
Beowulf:

To quote wowwiki:
Armor reduces physical damage done against you by a certain proportion. It depends entirely on the level of the monster (or player) hitting you and your own armor. Your level doesn't matter.

In your spreadsheet you are the boss, you just care what level the player is who is hitting you.

The reason is quite simple:

You, the bossmob, have 5k armor for example, your armor is obviously more effective against lower enemies, e.g. lower players won't hit you as hard, but higher level players will hit you harder.

You'll just need to invert your idea and take the other perspective and you'll see why it is obvious why you need the against lvl 70 enemy formula.

If you would take your original formula with a lvl 73 mob it would never cover the case that if you are lvl 80 you hit the lvl 73 mob way harder than at lvl 70, neither does it cover the case that a lvl 60 player would hit the lvl 73 mob way less than at lvl 70, if he does actually hit.
But again, the spreadsheet shows the first box having the NPC target's level, armor, and debuffs, while the right box has your gears armor penetration and if you have the executioner weapon enchant. The final number on the left box shows the %damage per hit they are reducing your attacks by, while the final number on the right box shows how much damage gain you get when the target is debuffed with the spells and your AP gear and enchants.

Maybe I should change the title for the first two boxes? I think you are confused on what its doing, the spreadsheet shows what your targets mitigation is, not yours against the target.

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/04/07 at 4:17 PM.
#4540SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
I know what it does, and yes it is still wrong
You'll need to change the box name to player level and the whole formula
#4541SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Irukandji
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
yeah, i tried that - its some kind of java incompatibility error b/c i just get a red X in the corner of the applet.

i got it to work with my vista computer at work - still no luck w/ my xp / linux machines though.
#4542SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Just a few days ago we were told in class about java: "Write once run everywhere? more like write once debug everywhere..."
#4543SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Beowolf
Alright Tornhoof, I've muddled through this most likely, but I've modified the formulas and uploaded a new version. Let me know if this is correct across most levels :P

BeowolfAPv2.xls - FileFront.com

This one actually shows how the debuffs and armor penetration affects abilities or weapon damage:

BeowolfAPv6.xls - FileFront.com

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/05/07 at 4:45 AM.
#4544SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Updated the Low-Raid and Mid Raid spreadsheets again to include The Savage's Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. Somehow I missed it before and saw it drop tonight.
#4545SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
faight
I'm currently leveling a shaman on Blackrock, I'm in my mid 50's. I don't have any endgame experience raiding with enhancement, or shaman at all, I was previously a holy Paladin. Before reading this thread I was leveling with a slow mainhander and a fast offhander. Someone in my guild pointed this thread out to me and I've since switched to slow/slow and have marveled at my DPS increase. However today I was grinding out some turtles in Southern Tanaris to catch up on my skinning, which has fallen behind the level curve I'm at, and I was thinking about the posts here talking about the bug or glitch that gives each hand a 36% proc rate with windfury, and I wondered if it applied to other shaman enchants. So I threw Frostbrand on both weapons and went to work. I use Violation as a DPS meter, and I reset it before I did so. I was averaging around 200 DPS with WF/WF, and when I switched over to FB/FB I was, to my surprise, keeping the same DPS. Frostbrand doesn't seem to have a proc limit at all, there were times I would SS and get both weapons to proc, then normal swing and get both weapons to proc as well. Frostbrand at that level was doing 181-182 damage per proc, so that was about 720 damage right there, which is usually what Windfury hits for when just one mainhand weapon proc crits.

It seemed to me that my Frostbrand was proccing a lot, to the point where it felt like I was getting a proc every two attacks. Of course, I'm using slow/slow weapons (2.5 MH and 2.7 OH) so I don't know what this would be like with fast weapons. I was going to play around with Yo's simulator, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Frostbrand got the same type of proc rate increase Windfury does when stacked. I realize this probably doesn't have much effect end-game, since Windfury is obviously the better choice due to it's scaling with gear, but I was curious as to whether any one has researched Frostbrand to see it's mechanics and if trying to use two fast weapons with Frostbrand was anywhere near useable in any situation if the proc rate is increased. As I am only in my 50's I don't have access to much as far as equipment goes, but I was hoping there might be a 70 shaman sitting around with a couple 1.4-1.5 speed weapons who could test this out to see if it's even worth mentioning.

To sum it up:
Frostbrand seems to proc a lot. Is this viable for anything and is the proc rate increased when it is cast on both weapons like Windfury's is?

Edit: Cleaned up some muddled language.

Last edited by faight : 11/05/07 at 7:41 AM.
#4546SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Winfurae
Has anyone compared the Dragonstrike to the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver? While the Cleaver does have 6 more top end damage, 5.5 more dps and good stats, I wonder how this weights against the haste proc on Dragonstrike. I forgot to mention that Dragonstrike is 2.7 while the cleaver is 2.6, this might make a difference as well.
#4547SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Winfurae, this is a good opportunity for us to find out why people ask this sort of question. I can't speak for the others here, but I personally won't get snarky with you as long as you're willing to let us know why you have to ask this question.

Did you read the first post in its entirety?

If no, then can I ask why? Does it just feel like too much information?

If yes, did you not understand the part about the sims available to you, by which you could have answered this queston?

I'm genuinely curious why people ask questions that are either explicitly or implicitly answered in Malan's excellent data consolidation in the first post of this thread.
#4548SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Winfurae
From what I have gathered from this thread it seems that Yo's! simulator is pretty enthusiastic when it comes to the uptime of Dragonstrike.
#4549SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by Winfurae View Post
From what I have gathered from this thread it seems that Yo's! simulator is pretty enthusiastic when it comes to the uptime of Dragonstrike.
So we can assume you read the entire original post and understood everything there was to know before making your previous post?

(if not, feel free to give pionters on what would make it easier/more accesable)
#4550SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
If it's the dragonstrike proc uptime that has you concerned, I'd run the simulator two times. Do it once with the dragonstrike proc button checked, once without. From there, decide for yourself how that matches up against the S3 weapon that you'd assumedly run in a 3rd test.

I'm guessing it'd look something like this:
test1: 1000 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, dragonstrike proc)
test2: 985 dps (S3 weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)
test3: 950 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)

You can then decide for yourself if the proc is more than 35% overvalued in the sim. I'd be curious what those 3 numbers are for you when you run the sim.
#4601SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
#4602SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
The way the section is currently presented, the conclusion may lead some shaman to assume that Stonebreaker is only good if they can maintain constant shock spam. The math tells a different story, and I think it would be better to rephrase the conclusion and sample values used to more accurately reflect this.
I agree that this section is confusing as written. I took a different route to solving this problem, and determined that you need ~30-35% buff uptime for Stonebreaker's to be better than Astral Winds. Shock miss rate would obviously impact this buff uptime but it's not required to be considered as a separate variable unless we know the mechanic by which Stonebreaker's procs (PPM? Percent chance? Internal cooldown, if any?) Unfortunately, although I recall posting that analysis to EJ, and getting a response, I can't find my post, and I'm too lazy to re-do the math... feel free to search for it, but I think I must have been sleepy while posting, hit the wrong thread, and gotten my post deleted.

Last edited by Rob : 11/07/07 at 8:38 PM.
#4603SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
I guess that's yet another unclear aspect of the section then, cause I obviously misinterpreted it as melee miss rate, not shock miss rate. Still, what kind of shock miss rates can we expect as enhance shaman? Surely it's much closer to 25% than 77%, no?

Edit: Anecdotally, WWS shows my personal shock miss rate to be somewhere in the ballpark of 10%.

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
...unless we know the mechanic by which Stonebreaker's procs (PPM? Percent chance? Internal cooldown, if any?
I was under the impression that this showed it's a simple 50% chance. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft
#4604SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
You have 17% base chance to resist a spell vs a lvl 73 mob (of which 16% can be mitigated by talents/spell hit rating). With Nature's Guidance, you reduce your miss chance to 14% .
#4605SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
You have 17% base chance to resist a spell vs a lvl 73 mob (of which 16% can be mitigated by talents/spell hit rating). With Nature's Guidance, you reduce your miss chance to 14% .
Ok, so back to my original point then. A 14% miss rate on shocks leads to a required uptime of around 28%, so we're still in the general 30% uptime range.

Edit: Furthermore, the shock miss rate for enhancement shaman is going to be much more consistent from one person to the next than the melee miss rate, so it seems even more logical to use a realistic value here (i.e. 17-14% instead of 93% or 77%).
#4606SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
OK, here's a quick and dirty replication of my math. Last time I did it, I accounted for white misses but said that 50% of WF procs were MH and 50% were OH. This time, I'm too lazy. The net result of these two exclusions from the model is a higher required uptime. Real number should be closer to 30%.

In a 30 second period, we get at most 10 MH WF procs, 3 stormstrikes, 15 MH attacks, and 15 OH attacks (weapon speed = 2.6, 100% flurry uptime).

Astral Winds applies to 10x MH WF attacks. Include "Elemental Weapons" talent 40% multiplier. 10 procs*2 attacks/proc*80 AP/attack*1.4 = 2240 bonus AP.

Stonebreaker applies to everything, but it's halved on the offhand.
10*2*110*1.4 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 3080+1980+990 = 6050 bonus AP.

Solve for uptime p such that
2240 = 6050p
p = 37%
Stonebreaker is therefore superior if uptime exceeds 37%.

Complicating factors not accounted for:
* Increased white miss/glance rate (vs. yellow)
* Increased critical strike chance of white attacks (vs. yellow)
* This is a best case scenario in WF procs (you will not get 10 MH procs)
* This is a best case scenario in Flurry uptime (you will not have 100%)
By far, the largest of these factors is the exceedingly small probability of getting exactly 10 MH WF procs in a 30 second period. Therefore, this is an overestimate of the required uptime for Stonebreaker to be superior.

Last edited by Rob : 11/07/07 at 9:04 PM.
#4607SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
I'm quoting this and addressing it again, because looking at the numbers, I'm not convinced that it is spell miss rate and not melee miss rate being considered.

A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3 <====typo in the OP
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)
If it's spell miss rate, why does it only appear in the white swings term, and not every term with the Stonebreaker ap? Isn't spell miss rate most easily taken into consideration as a reduction of the 50% proc chance on the effect?

Edit: there's also a typo in the OP, it's corrected later on in the same post. the line should read:
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)

Last edited by Skiace : 11/07/07 at 9:30 PM.
#4608SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tassaros
excuse me I am not that good in maths, but in the example of the 1st page concerning Expertise, sisn't it then 1 expertise rating ~ 1.96 AEP ?????
#4609SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
In the example in section V.III.12 you get 1 expertise rating ~ 1.936 AEP.
#4610SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
OK, here's a quick and dirty replication of my math. Last time I did it, I accounted for white misses but said that 50% of WF procs were MH and 50% were OH. This time, I'm too lazy. The net result of these two exclusions from the model is a higher required uptime. Real number should be closer to 30%.

In a 30 second period, we get at most 10 MH WF procs, 3 stormstrikes, 15 MH attacks, and 15 OH attacks (weapon speed = 2.6, 100% flurry uptime).

Astral Winds applies to 10x MH WF attacks. Include "Elemental Weapons" talent 40% multiplier. 10 procs*2 attacks/proc*80 AP/attack*1.4 = 2240 bonus AP.

Stonebreaker applies to everything, but it's halved on the offhand.
10*2*110*1.4 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 3080+1980+990 = 6050 bonus AP.

Solve for uptime p such that
2240 = 6050p
p = 37%
Stonebreaker is therefore superior if uptime exceeds 37%.

Complicating factors not accounted for:
* Increased white miss/glance rate (vs. yellow)
* Increased critical strike chance of white attacks (vs. yellow)
* This is a best case scenario in WF procs (you will not get 10 MH procs)
* This is a best case scenario in Flurry uptime (you will not have 100%)
By far, the largest of these factors is the exceedingly small probability of getting exactly 10 MH WF procs in a 30 second period. Therefore, this is an overestimate of the required uptime for Stonebreaker to be superior.
I'm not sure that halving all the bonus AP applied to OH attacks is the proper way to approach this. I'm having trouble showing myself exactly why I feel this way, but it seems a bit off.

On that note, why not split the difference and say 5 MH WF procs and 5 OH WF procs, in which case your method would require halving the bonus AP from Astral Winds on OH attacks. This in turn would lower the "total bonus ap" contribution from Astral Winds to 1680.

Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
#4611SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
panny
Since the Stonebreaker Totem affects white damage where as Astral Winds doesn't, I needed to work out how much the contribution was. Therefore, melee miss rate affects the Stonebreaker Totems contribution and needed to be calculated. I am no longer sure about the hit cap and the miss rates of dual wielding Shaman, so I left it as a variable while writing out the equation.

After I did my experiments, melee hit rate (miss rate) was the only unknown I had left, so I did the logical thing and solved for it. Rob is correct when he mentions AP being halved on the offhand. However, since it affects both Astral Winds and Stonebreaker equally (1.5 multiplier on both), I didn't include it.

Alot of my calculations are relative and set based rather than absolute because there is alot I haven't verified for myself, not fully sure of and wasn't sure on how to include. (For example, WF proc rate while dual wielding, flurry uptime, hit caps, etc). In these cases, I used values that favoured the Astral Winds because figuring out whether Stonebreaker was an upgrade was my main goal. Figuring exactly how much better it was was more daunting and so I used fuzzy logic for this. I mentioned this in my original post concerning the factoring of spell resist rates (which is just taken as a simple multiplier.)

One thing I did forget to include was glancings and the different crit rates from yellow to white damage (yellow is on a two-roll system so the crit rate will be lower?). These can be pretty easily added if there are commonly agreed values for them.

B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3 <====typo in the OP
That should be B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)

Last edited by panny : 11/07/07 at 10:21 PM.
#4612SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Since the Stonebreaker Totem affects white damage where as Astral Winds doesn't, I needed to work out how much the contribution was. Therefore, melee miss rate affects the Stonebreaker Totems contribution and needed to be calculated. I am no longer sure about the hit cap and the miss rates of dual wielding Shaman, so I left it as a variable while writing out the equation.

After I did my experiments, melee hit rate (miss rate) was the only unknown I had left, so I did the logical thing and solved for it. Rob is correct when he mentions AP being halved on the offhand. However, since it affects both Astral Winds and Stonebreaker equally (1.5 multiplier on both), I didn't include it.

Alot of my calculations are relative and set based rather than absolute because there is alot I haven't verified for myself, not fully sure of and wasn't sure on how to include. (For example, WF proc rate while dual wielding, flurry uptime, hit caps, etc). In these cases, I used values that favoured the Astral Winds because figuring out whether Stonebreaker was an upgrade was my main goal. Figuring exactly how much better it was was more daunting and so I used fuzzy logic for this. I mentioned this in my original post concerning the factoring of spell resist rates (which is just taken as a simple multiplier.)

One thing I did forget to include was glancings and the different crit rates from yellow to white damage (yellow is on a two-roll system so the crit rate will be lower?). These can be pretty easily added if there are commonly agreed values for them.



That should be B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
In that case, I would change the analysis a bit. You can get the %WF, %SS, and %white from WWS logs easily enough. Taking these numbers from the largest sample of my own I have (a night in SSC) gives the following:
A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
From WWS reports over the course of an entire raid night:
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 0.255
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 0.130
Percent_of_white_Swings = 0.615

A: 28.56
B1: 39.27
B2: 14.3
B3: 67.65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
28.56 = Uptime * (39.27 + 14.3 + [ 67.65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Let Missrate = 19%
Then Uptime = 26.4%

As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 26.4%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 23.8%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.

Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.

(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)

(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3

This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds.
Edit: In the end, even tweaking the numbers around between the percentage breakdown in the OP, various miss rates, and bad spell miss rates, I always come up with a required shock frequency greater than 12 seconds (i.e. two shock cooldowns). I think that's the important punchline to the whole analysis.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/07/07 at 10:52 PM.
#4613SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
In that case, I would change the analysis a bit. You can get the %WF, %SS, and %white from WWS logs easily enough. Taking these numbers from the largest sample of my own I have (a night in SSC) gives the following:
Sure, that's definitely one method of performing the calculations and presenting the conclusions.

However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.

Also, my instinct is to avoid statistics as much as possible. :P

Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
Edit: In the end, even tweaking the numbers around between the percentage breakdown in the OP, various miss rates, and bad spell miss rates, I always come up with a required shock frequency greater than 12 seconds (i.e. two shock cooldowns). I think that's the important punchline to the whole analysis.
If your methodology is sound, I think presenting it this way is very good.
#4614SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Sure, that's definitely one method of performing the calculations and presenting the conclusions.

However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.

Also, my instinct is to avoid statistics as much as possible. :P



If your methodology is sound, I think presenting it this way is very good.
What I'd like to do is take your formula and try out basically the worst case scenario of numbers we can realistically use. This would be close to zero +hit gear and thus a high %WF, coupled with a pessimistic spell miss rate. If this still gives a required shock frequency in the 12-14 second range, I think that should be presented as the proof for the totem's superiority. Of course, eventually it would be great to see it incorporated into Yo's sim as well.

Does anyone have a swing breakdown favoring Windfury more than the one seen in the OP?
(that would be 28.8% WF, 11.9% SS, 59.5% white)

Also, if anyone disagrees with the method I used to determine shock frequency from needed buff uptime, please speak up.
#4615SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
I'm not sure that halving all the bonus AP applied to OH attacks is the proper way to approach this. I'm having trouble showing myself exactly why I feel this way, but it seems a bit off.
Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you here unless you can show me any reason at all for why you feel this is wrong -- remember that we daily have people feel that hit rating should be valued more highly. Offhand attacks do half damage. Therefore they're worth half as much bonus AP in my calculations.
On that note, why not split the difference and say 5 MH WF procs and 5 OH WF procs, in which case your method would require halving the bonus AP from Astral Winds on OH attacks. This in turn would lower the "total bonus ap" contribution from Astral Winds to 1680.
Yep, as I acknowledged, this is a "best case" for Astral Winds. What you suggest is perfectly reasonable, and I did it last time I did these calculations. I did not do it this time because I also did not factor in white misses or glances (a problem which yellow attacks do not have), and I also didn't factor in yellow attacks having ~5% lower crit rate, but it is trivial to adjust for this single factor if that's what you dislike about this analysis. As you said, Astral Winds becomes 1680 bonus AP. Stonebreaker's WF attacks are also lowered and its AP contribution becomes 10*2*110*1.4*.75 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 2310+1980+990 = 5280. Uptime required is p = 32%. Not an earth-shatteringly different result.
Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
Not sure how that is the case when you suggest that you must only shock once every 14 seconds to make Stonebreaker's superior (a result which absolutely will give sub-50% uptime) and the OP says that shock spam and 52% uptime is required to make Stonebreaker's superior.
#4616SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lethnon
got a question thats a little different...

While roaming WoW, I bumped into an enhancement shaman who claimed that STR had diminishing returns, therefore go AP. Now I know that this thread has always said STR > AP, but is there a point of diminishing returns? I know there are for crit, dodge, defense, etc... but I have never heard of one for a stat. Figured I would go to the pros and ask.
#4617SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Lethnon View Post
got a question thats a little different...

While roaming WoW, I bumped into an enhancement shaman who claimed that STR had diminishing returns, therefore go AP. Now I know that this thread has always said STR > AP, but is there a point of diminishing returns? I know there are for crit, dodge, defense, etc... but I have never heard of one for a stat. Figured I would go to the pros and ask.
Thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. Str always is 2 ap (kings yadda yadda), and 1 ap is always 1 ap. The only thing i can think of is how, from what I've heard, when itemizing stuff blizz starts applying higher weights to items that have more of one stat (ie 10 str is less expensive than 20 str but is the same as 10 str on 2 diff items) in either case the same rule would apply to ap anyway and the point is moot even if thats what he thinks he talking about.
#4618SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lethnon
I admit... I thought the guy was an idiot. But I thought I would bounce the whole "stats have a cap/diminishing return" thing off yall.
#4619SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bestpike
Sorry for the irrelevant matter, but i wanted to ask something. On the starter post of this thread, it is stated that shocks are 5-6% of total enhancement dps. Are you sure that this is right?

My calculations show that even before 2.3, and without talents at all, and with only earth shocks we have :

675 damage every 6 seconds= 112 dps. If we factor in 5% base spell crit and the resist chance on a level 73 boss we have about 100dps. Finally adding the SS debuff we go to 120 dps. Now in order for that to be 6% of total damage, your total damage must be. 120/0.06=2000 dps. Which is much higher than a normal raiding shaman can achieve.

So correct me if im wrong, but my numbers show that even in the worst occasions shocks are a lot more of shamans dps than 6%. So maybe we need to reconsider speccing elemental in patch 2.3, where the shock damage will increase greatly, while its cost will be almost free.
#4620SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Originally Posted by Skiace
Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
Not sure how that is the case when you suggest that you must only shock once every 14 seconds to make Stonebreaker's superior (a result which absolutely will give sub-50% uptime) and the OP says that shock spam and 52% uptime is required to make Stonebreaker's superior.
The bolded claim demonstrates the exact the point I've been trying to make. The OP says that you need greater than 52% uptime IF your miss rate is 77%. My whole point originally was that this is a misleading way to present the data, and would lead to people coming to the conclusion you did here.

Using the same exact formula and numbers from the OP, (Panny's method is the same one from the OP that you referenced) but solving for uptime with a more realistic miss rate of 19%, I got a required uptime in the range of 30%, which is where I got the 14 seconds from.

edit: I'm also pretty sure that Thundering Strikes now properly applies to yellow attacks, so they do not see a 5% reduced crit rate. If you have a recent WWS that refutes this, please share.


Originally Posted by panny View Post
However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.
I've found my swing percentages to vary no more than 3% in any given category between raids. This variation leads to a variation in the calculated uptime of less than 2%. If we can find some agreed upon base values I'd love to use them though. Following up on this, even if I bump up the WF swings to 30% (and reduce white swings accordingly) which is significantly higher than the OP values, I still end up with an uptime of 30% for a 19% missrate. I have to go all the way to 37% WF before the uptime dips below 12 seconds per shock. The more I look at it, the more I think 30% uptime is a good conservative estimate.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/08/07 at 5:50 AM.
#4621SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by bestpike View Post
Sorry for the irrelevant matter, but i wanted to ask something. On the starter post of this thread, it is stated that shocks are 5-6% of total enhancement dps. Are you sure that this is right?

My calculations show that even before 2.3, and without talents at all, and with only earth shocks we have :

675 damage every 6 seconds= 112 dps. If we factor in 5% base spell crit and the resist chance on a level 73 boss we have about 100dps. Finally adding the SS debuff we go to 120 dps. Now in order for that to be 6% of total damage, your total damage must be. 120/0.06=2000 dps. Which is much higher than a normal raiding shaman can achieve.

So correct me if im wrong, but my numbers show that even in the worst occasions shocks are a lot more of shamans dps than 6%. So maybe we need to reconsider speccing elemental in patch 2.3, where the shock damage will increase greatly, while its cost will be almost free.
I think shocks are closer to 8-9% in the best case scenario. That's not a whole lot. I average about 1350 dps through all of BT/Hyjal, and on the melee friendly fights between 1650-1850 dps. That number can definitely drop between 5-6%, and if you're not shocking every 6 seconds on the dot, it'll drop even lower. Regardless, elemental is definitely becoming more viable.

If Totemic Mastery is unnecessary in the Sunwell I might be tempted to try it out. Mana is going to be such a non-issue, I will be casting a shock and fire nova totem every cooldown for sure. At that point, talents like Concussion, Reverberation and Call of Flame might actually beat out Nature's Guidance. I doubt it, though. Those talents really are pretty terrible for PVE.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/08/07 at 5:37 AM.
#4622SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If you're only using one axe, it should in theory only reflect the dodge rate for that weapon, so for SS purposes you'd want the axe in your MH to get that little extra edge. Kind of depends on how they implement it though.
Actually, it looks like the orc racial applies to both weapons even if only one of your weapons is an axe. With a RT/Syphon combo and no expertise gear, my character sheet shows that I have 5 expertise, with no mention of the bonus being axe-specific. In the 2.3 changes thread, human rogues were reporting that a sword MH/mace OH gave them 10 expertise total.

Could just be a paperdoll error, and it's going to be a pain in the ass to test. For now though it looks like orcs will only need 1 axe to get full benefit of the racial, and it doesn't matter which hand the axe is in.
#4623SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
I don't think the paperdoll is supporting weapon skill specific expertise.
I think the expertise part for axe is handled purely on server, since it basically is not supported designwise. Atleast imho the whole expertise change is to simplify the whole damage calculation, since you basically save a shitload of calculations for max hit cap etc. and you can technically reuse the attack table for both hands.
#4624SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boro
DPS/Damage Done

As you know I do not often post here, but something has been puzzling me for sometime and I think I may be making sense of it so here goes. I am hoping you guys can help make some sense of what I have discovered from WWS parses.

Like all Shaman here I have used the advice and simulators to make informed decisions about gear combinations to maximise my DPS in raids. In my case the simulators always seem to give me higher DPS potential than I actually achieve. I have put this down to the variations in bosses and have really only foccussed on Bosses such as Teron (the more static bosses) to get a good feel for whether I am hitting my potential.

I think like all of us here for whatever reason it matters to be always doing your best and pushing the limits. I live in 90-100% threat land and I love it.

But....I have looked at lots of WWS parses over the months and seen many Enhancement Shaman with better DPS than mine even when I would question the gear selection and or wether the gear is even better than mine. I go to the armoury do a comparison and usually I find I have better melee stats all round or at least comparable. So i kept asking myself what can I do better where am I going wrong....you know like you do :P

I have followed a number of enhancement Shaman as I have progressed through BT and Hyjal, Seb, Stig, Tsalrioth and Grevan. (Stalking the Armoury so to speak)

So after a long intro :-) today I started looking at WWS parses and found some differences I don't understand, but lead me to believe that chasing DPS is not all its cut out to be. In fact I would suggest damage done is important to.

Since most fights are limited by a bosses HP (even ones that heal up etc) we can look at Time to death as being variable. (yes this is obvious I know) and damge need to kill the boss pretty much fixed, if it does increase then so does time to kill. Without exception the highest dps kills on WWS appear to me to be those done in the shortest time. So you see top rating WWS parses for bosses from the likes of Blood Legion and Juggernaut etc. with huge dps values.

What I did was look at enhancement Shaman in these groups and looked at their DPS, discovering that they were ususally more than my DPS for the same boss with similar gear. Some foccused more on haste than me and others more leather...but our melee stats are fairly similar, weapons the same. Closer investigation showed that most but not all are advocates of twisting, either WF/GOA or WF/TA. I do not do this often so in the parses I usually see they use fewer or no shocks whilst my usage is higher.

It was at this point I decided that there must be another reason to account for such large differences. So when looking at Damage Done i started to notice some clear differences. Boss for boss on average I was doing a lot more damage than other Shaman but getting lower DPS figures. But their kills where quicker, their raid make ups different (usually more focussed on melee).

So in summary: I discovered I was doing more damage over a longer period with a lower dps and others are doing more dps over a shorter period. This of course all makes mathematical sense at least to me. I suppose time to kill is a combination of the sum of the parts in terms of DPS potential...certain mixes will get things done quicker and DPS per individual will be higher.

Here are a couple of parses to have a look out:

Blood Legion

Wow Web Stats

My Guild:

Wow Web Stats

Loading...

Finally to conclude, does my logic make sense or am I stating the obvious? Have the stats got the better of me? Does it really matter :-) ? Just really wanted to share this as dps is just a representation of a combination of stats as of course is damage done. Its just what you interpret from them that matters. I felt that I was doing something wrong with my gear selection etc and chased around for ages trying different things.

Anyway apolgies for the long post.
#4625SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
I'm not sure I fully understand what you'r saying, but I'll give it a shot:

The sim calculated your possible best DPS. Due to the nature of shamans (SR), this DPS should be pretty much sustainable over a longer period of time.

Because your kills take so much longer, you will have more damage done then the shaman you linked. The main difference here is that your group does less damage then their group.

Say you have a mob with 100k hp and 2 dpsers.

In your case:
you - 500 DPS --> 55555 damage
partner - 400 DPS --> 44444 damage

In their case:
Shaman - 700 DPS --> 42424 damage (less then you)
Partner - 950 DPS --> 57575 damage

To clarify: DPS is not -or should not be- influenced by time, but damage done depends on the DPS of other people aswell. With a raid that does significant more DPS, your contribution in that DPS might be lower then in a raid that does less DPS.

In your raid, avg dps per person (including healers) is 667, you almost double that number.
In Blood Legion, avg dps per person is 1065.48, doubling that as shaman is going to be alot harder.
#4651SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Hey there.

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Thanks.
#4652SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Droo
Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.

Last edited by Droo : 11/08/07 at 7:45 PM.
#4653SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tchyk
What about HOJ?

Over time I've read through most of this forum, but I can't remember anyone stating whether or not Hand of Justice was still viable.

I have heard its a 1.33% proc at lvl 70 with 20 attack power. Given that the extra swing can proc WF & WF can proc the extra swing, wouldn't that be worth a fair amount of AEP?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815&xml

Although the counter-argument would be that Rogues' sword spec increases in dps because of the speed of their off-hand and the attack procing the main hand and we stack slow weapons so a low chance to proc wouldn't happen very often?

300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?
#4654SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Hey there.

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Thanks.
Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.
#4655SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?
Theoretically, the less time between WF cooling down and your next swing the better. A 1.5 second swing should be moderatly better than a 1.6 second swing (and vastly better than a 1.4 second swing) as a result. However, to the best of my knowledge the only testing that's been done was to see if going under 1.5 speed was enough of a problem to care (which it isn't). Flurry means that you won't actually be sitting in the sweet spot all of the time anyway. If you're up to spending a huge amount of time testing it, that'd be awesome, though.
#4656SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Severjanin
Here's the really, really old post you're looking for Paradox. It can be found in the sticky Informative and useful Shaman threads in the eu forums.

Originally Posted by Snorkle
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/984/untitledex3.jpg

A is the point where we are about to hit 1.50 speed, B is the point immediatelly after. As you see, the graphic is not continuous because of the immediate drop in DPS. C is the point at which your DPS is decent again (1.39 in case of a starting speed of 1.51).

Also, here are the "sweet spots" as you named them, for a few different starting speeds, as well as how much DPS you lose as you hit the danger line (in percentage):

Init.Speed - sweet spot - dps lost as you cross the danger line

1.50 - N/A - 0%
1.51 - 1.39 - 8%
1.52 - 1.40 - 7.8%
1.53 - 1.41 - 7.1%
1.54 - 1.43 - 5.6%
1.55 - 1.43 - 5.1%
1.56 - 1.44 - 4.8%
1.57 - 1.45 - 4.1%
1.58 - 1.46 - 3.4%
1.59 - 1.47 - 2.7%
1.60 - 1.48 - 2.0%
1.61 - 1.49 - 1.3%
1.62 - 1.50* - 0.6%
1.63 - N/A - 0%

* - rounding problems >_<...

Also, I've had a great idea about how to look at disphasement. I'm gonna make something about it tonight, for now I'm bloated (family lunch - boring, but lots of food) and can't think straight, need some digestion time. My idea is simple: assuming the normal mainhand speeds of 2.7 and 2.6, for each common offhand speed (2.2,2.4,2.5,2.6) check the average disphasement (distance between an offhand swing and the next mainhand swing), and with this calculate how many mainhand swings in average will be eaten by the offhand. To make it more "realistic" I just assume the chance that one offhand swing proccs wf ASSUMING that swing is not in the WF cooldown. Empirically it really seems to point out that 2.6/2.6 is BETTER than 2.7/2.6. Omg blizzard, do something :P this is getting ridiculous!

Snorkle

Last edited by Severjanin : 11/09/07 at 1:39 AM. Reason: adding how to find original source
#4657SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Leather vs Mail

I'm in the same boat when it comes to leather vs mail... It'd be nice to have some int, as well as more armor, but the leather gear is so compelling.

At the moment, I'm putting serious consideration into buying pieces of leather gear from 2.3 badge rewards:

Gloves
Pants
Bracers
Belt

And I already have a leather BP, and a mail helm with no int.... Leaving me with a whopping one item with INT, T4 shoulders (which I'd replace with Shoulders of the Stranger in a heartbeat).

Yet, with the 2.3 changes, I think I may end up going this route. I'm actually still torn between the leather gloves and the mail ones. My current AEP values the mail ones a tiny bit more, but the gloves + pants yields almost 5% haste, when I currently have none.
#4658SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.
I'm sorry to post a response that is pure fluff, but Malan, I do believe you would have been able to be a writer for Fawlty Towers or Black Adder, having constructed such a response as quoted above.

In fact, this seems sigworthy if I can fit it in...
#4659SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
This is a bit confusing/incorrect. I'd rewrite it as:

In order to convert your Expertise Rating into AEP for purposes of comparison, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again. This gives you a "hit rating" equivalency.

But expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.

As an example of these calculations, if I have 47 Expertise Rating on all my items, and a hit AEP of 1.6, that equals Floor(47/15.8) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = Floor(2.97) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 2 * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 91.008 AEP.
Ok, so I was thinking about this a bit, going back to our conversation about the 1 roll vs 2 roll system for white attacks vs yellow attacks, and how the crit% stays constant with yellow attacks as expertise changes, but the crit% decreases for white attacks as expertise rises.

We already have Hit Rating AEP accounting for this decrease in white crit % (since hit rating only accounts for white attacks, where we're not going to get any more crits). So, we now need to revalue the yellow portion of the expertise effect based on the extra crits we're going to get thanks to the 2 roll system.

clear as mud?

In algebraic terms...

W = Total White damage%
Y = Yellow damage%
C = Melee Crit %
ER = Expertise Rating
HRaep = Hit Rating AEP

The current formula reads as:
(Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage) * Expertise Rating * Hit AEP
=
[(Y + W) / W] * ER * HRaep

The more-correct formula would then be:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep


This just makes sense given the 2 roll and 1 roll systems.

Assume a 50/50 white damage to yellow damage breakdown:
If I land 3% more white attacks thanks to expertise, that's the same as 3% more white attacks thanks to hit rating because none will be crits. ER(w) = 1HRaep

If I'm landing 3% more yellow attacks thanks to expertise, and 33% of them are going to be crits, I need to value this 33% more than the hit rating line above. ER(y) = 1HRaep * Crit%

So....
to the example given in the first place, with a 40yellow, 50white, 10shock breakdown, and a new term of "30% crit rate", I'd value 1 expertise rating as:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep
= [(40*1.3 + 50) / 50 ] * 1 * HRaep
= (52+50)/50 * 1 * HRaep
= (102/50) HRaep
= 2.04 HRaep
For me, I think I'll be doing this, and valuing Expertise Rating as 2*Hit Rating

This sits with my gut much better. Please let me know if I'm being dumb in my conceptualization (or even basic math!) with this post.
#4660SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bestpike
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I think shocks are closer to 8-9% in the best case scenario. That's not a whole lot. I average about 1350 dps through all of BT/Hyjal, and on the melee friendly fights between 1650-1850 dps. That number can definitely drop between 5-6%, and if you're not shocking every 6 seconds on the dot, it'll drop even lower. Regardless, elemental is definitely becoming more viable.

If Totemic Mastery is unnecessary in the Sunwell I might be tempted to try it out. Mana is going to be such a non-issue, I will be casting a shock and fire nova totem every cooldown for sure. At that point, talents like Concussion, Reverberation and Call of Flame might actually beat out Nature's Guidance. I doubt it, though. Those talents really are pretty terrible for PVE.
In 2.3 the factors that will favor elemental instead of resto as secondary tree are devastating:

1. Free spell damage increases shock dps
2. Convection talent becoming imba reducing the mana cost of earth shock to 128 from 181 with shamanistic focus procced (its -10% off base cost)
3. Free spell damage increasing searing totem by a lot, adding to that the Call of flame talent, we have a searing totem doing probably more than 150dps with the mage debuff. Not to mention the improved aoe abilities, fire nova and magma.
4. Reverberation talent, further increasing shock dps by 20%.
5. 10% less fire,frost,nature damage as a bonus.

The only thing i will really miss from resto is 3% in spells, capping the chance to hit in pvp, and the totem increased range.

Oh and some info: For some reason if Elemental focus procs and then Shamanistic focus procs, the elemental focus buff will be lost, overwritten by the shamanistic. Thus you cant get free shocks . So if you go enhancement/elemental dont put a talent in elemental focus. Thats in PTR ofc, but i dont expect for it to be fixed/changed.
#4661SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Droo View Post
Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.


Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
#4662SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
One thing i dont get about weapon expertise is why is it divided by 15.8 instead of 3.95 as i thought conversion is 3.95 rating for 1 expertise? It kinda feels it has deen multiplied by 4 twice instead once? 15.8 Expertise rating, or in other words 4 expertise, might give 1% dodge/parry reduction. But that is 4 points, i dont see why would anything be done in 4 point jumps. I would more think it is 1 point expertise (not rating) for 0.25 reduction, or about 4 rating.

For example that rating mentioned where get 2.5 expetise, would not that be reduced to 2 expertise opposed to 0? And concerning example item mentioned in first paragraph, you get 10 expertise rating not 6.

Is this just to get better comparison with hit rating? Or what am i missing here?

EDIT: Small fixes :P
#4663SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by tchyk View Post
300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?
With a 2.6 weapon those 300 swings represent 13 minutes of combat for 4 extra attacks - and I am not certain that the HoJ is able to proc WF, I thought that was fixed ages ago? Regardless, 4 white hits over 13 minutes doesn't sound like a reasonable DPS improvement over another trinket that would give AP or Crit bonuses.

Disquette - I don't understand what was funny.

Requesting a peer review of this post from yesterday about the Stonebreaker Totem. Need a yay/nay on it. Same with Disquette's post from above about the Expertise values.
#4664SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Atren
Ok, his formula is wrong due to messup with parenthis, real one should be based on his example:

(Y*(1+C)+ W) / W * ER * HRaep

I would say C feels too big effect here for actual intuition based feeling.

Edit: Cleared post a lot

Last edited by Atren : 11/09/07 at 10:18 AM.
#4665SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He meant to write that like this -
<br />
\frac {Y \times (1 + C) + W}{W} \times \text {ER} \times \text {HR AEP}<br />

If you look at the bottom of his post where he does an example you can see that he does the calculations correctly, he just typed out the formula in a confusing manner.
#4666SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raut
Enhance OH options should be changed to include:

Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft
The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft

2.3 changes. Hardly end-game, but removes the need for Al'ar or Arena to get decent OH weapons.

(Sorry if this is already mentioned, I couldn't find any on the last five or so pages)
#4667SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
I honestly cannot remember where I saw it said that it did, or who said it...or why I think that.

But if it really does not eat the charges I'll have some happy warriors and enhance shaman...
#4668SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?

@Raut - already noted in the OP from a few weeks ago.
Patch 2.3 Update - Decapitator and Fool's Bane from KZ have been made one-hand and non unique, which will significantly improve early OH choices. Zul'Aman will also feature at least one 2.6 speed fist OH.
#4669SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Ok, on the way home from work i had some chance to ponder about Disquette formula. I think it works, altough there are some near impossible cases it is wrong. Namely if crit is higher than hit then it is wrong.

Also reminder that it is single item value with no truncation. For real use for entire gear you need to sum up and divide by 3.95 (not 15.8 imo) and truncate (i hope that is right term). Then multiply it with 3.95 and use that value in ER place in Disquette formula. That should give you expertise total AEP value over your entire gear. Due to truncation for most accurate determination you need to do over your entire gear opposed by just adding pieces AEP together.

Malan, i think he means us and warriors wont get angry warlocks and shadow priests mob after us :P

EDIT: Fixed minor mistakes.
#4670SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Sorry for the sloppiness last night - I'm glad the intent came through with the example. And you're correct that in the upside-down hit/crit case it will be wrong. I sure hope to be able to have that problem some day
#4671SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.
#4672SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
and truncate (i hope that is right term)
When you truncate a number, you are considering N digits of the fractional part of the real.

Pi truncated to 3 digits is 3.141.

No rounding is done, truncation is just chopping off the least significant digits. Floor rounds down, Ceil rounds up.

Useless tidbit: When casting a double to an int in C++, it will floor a negative value, and ceil a positive value. Use round() if you mean round, don't cast to an integer type.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 11/09/07 at 3:08 PM. Reason: No coffee yet, said float when I meant real.
#4673SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?
If it ate ISB they weren't going to use it. Now that we see it does not, they can use it.
#4674SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.
Banshees in Hyjal. I do not approve of that curse -_-.
#4675SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Toots Hepcat
Accidental double post, Firefox has some bizarre keybindings at times.

Question: I am still elemental (guild needed some more ranged to push through the hump we were in and bring down Gruul, which we did). Tuesday obviously offers me a great opportunity to spec back to my first and only love, melee support.

However, I'm just loving the DPS I have right now. My elemental gear is nowhere near as good as my enhancement gear and my max dps is lower as a result (by about 10%). However, my average DPS, and my dps time, are much higher.

I'm guessing that this is due to the amount of melee movement in fights like Gruul's. I'm wondering if any of the elemental converts out there can tell me at what point of progression into the endgame content your lightning bolts started outpacing your windfury.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/09/07 at 4:34 PM. Reason: Double posts make the baby jesus cry.
#4701SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?
#4702SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
#4703SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tokageroh
Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?
When it comes to threat the tanks we have are really good (either that or i cant generate enough threat after layen down my totems). I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.




Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's
shock rotation.
Tell that to my class leader whos suicide spec...... i do more dmg then him but he still goes on about how horrible my dmg is *sigh*
#4704SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.
Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.
#4705SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.
#4706SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3aroma
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.
We have a feral druid tanking Tidewalker and it's pretty much impossible to pull aggro from him, even without salvation. Warriors seem to have a much harder time tanking this encounter, so if you have a warrior tank you might be right.
#4707SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.
Omen might be underestimating by quite a bit. I remember old Earth Shock being a 350% modifier. It's possible that they changed it when they moved the threat bonus to Frost Shock, but probably worth testing.
#4708SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gehenna
frost shock

on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.
#4709SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
With my aggro, I cannot fathom one fight in the whole game where I can just happily frost shock. Akama excluded for obvious reasons. I'd just pull aggro, there is no way in hell I can Frost Shock on every cooldown. I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.
#4710SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.
Pretty much the only reason to frost shock ever right here. Other than Illidan parasites or demons.
#4711SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)
#4712SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Updated your link on the first post and I'll get to some of the other stuff to update on Monday.
#4713SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Thanks a bunch! By the way, one of the reasons I settled on the WS graphic that I did was your input on that other thread - there should be no doubt when you need to recast it, and hopefully it's relatively unobtrusive (yet visible, for pre-pulls) when you're at full mana but it's not active.
#4714SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.
#4715SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tufy
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.
You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.
#4716SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Flame Shock is not weaker damage than other shocks, especially after 2.3 when more fire mages around with mage damage tax removal. And unless your elemental shaman (or in this case you :P) is moving around then by time your shock cooldown is over you should be able to fire Earth Shock without taking charge.
#4717SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)
I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?


Last edited by Skiace : 11/12/07 at 2:52 AM.
#4718SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by tufy View Post
You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.
With either CoE or Imp. Scorch, Flame Shock is better DPS than Earth Shock, even if Stormstrike is up. And it's more reliable that you'll get the damage debuff effects too.
#4719SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.
Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!
#4720SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raut
(Sorry for the redundant linking of the two Kara weapons, Malan. I just checked the links and the last pages of text.)

2.x/2.y Weapon Speed Combinations
A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes no difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.
I do not completely agree. I've been trying to prove this with math, but as many others, the concept of dealing with time and two variables affecting each other has made me give up making this a final function. Instead I'll try to explain this in layman terms(since it's the best I can do).

My theory: You want the slowest weapon in OH due to it silencing the MH less. For lesser speed differences, like 2.6 vs. 2.7, the added damage from hitting harder with MH is lost due to OH silencing MH more often. I have no theory on which speed range this includes as a 2.2 speed MH will lose a lot of damage in SS and WF, but a 2.2 OH will silence the MH a lot(thus removing MH WF procs).

I did some sims with Yo! to have some empirical "proof" to point to:

Yo! run with default values, but 1000 hours, 1550 AP, haste set at 0% and both weapons set at 97.5 DPS. First value MH speed, second OH, last DPS:

>2.6,2.2 - 899
>2.2,2.6 - 899
>2.8,2.2 - 909
>2.2,2.8 - 908

Worst/best case speed scenario. Does not support my theory.

>2.6,2.6 - 920
>2.6,2.7 - 925
>2.7,2.6 - 924
>2.6,2.8 - 928
>2.8,2.6 - 930
>2.7,2.8 - 933
>2.8,2.7 - 935
>2.8,2.8 - 940

Ad hoc theory: The 2.8 swing seems to be a kind of sweet-spot most likely caused by the added damage from SS and WF-procs surpassing the missing WF swings cause by added OH silence.

I ran most of these test three or four times to see the DPS span, but nothing major came up. I don't think the guide should be updated with the table above, but maybe something better than MH speed == OH speed? If you were able to modify the swing timer on a blank weapon with the correct stats, you would pick 2.8 as speed(as it is the current max).

This theory(with it's self-destructing ad-hoc addition) may be just fluff in the grand picture as the following shows:

>2.6,2.6(+50AP) - 931

50 AP is not a lot and by using two 2.6 weapons over Syphon of the Nathrezim, you should be able to match or surpass the DPS, but 50+ AP does not scale. The 2.8 speed will. It is less total swings in a silence window and higher SS and WF strikes.

Once again, sorry if this has been brought up(as I am sure it has), but the 180+ pages are close to impossible to parse all at once. I'm not sure if any of this should affect the guide any more than the "slow is good" part that is mentioned already. What do you think?
#4721SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Since there were no objections I have updated the Stonebreaker derivation as per this post.

Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.
#4722SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Deathmvp
I have been reading this form for a long time and I want to say it is the best for info.

I do have 2 question with the 30% of ap equaling spell damage and healing though.

1) since you will get 30% more damage on your totems and shock would that make Potance (20 sts or 40 ap =12 damage and heal) better then crusader your you damage out out?

2)Unless I am reading it wrong that change will make str and attack power worth more and I will have to add like a extra .1 on the stat weight right?
#4723SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Aezoc
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?
Similar problem here. Setting alpha to 0 does work, but only until I recast water shield, at which point it displays again. It seems to be ignoring the wshieldbar setting.

Last edited by Aezoc : 11/12/07 at 11:35 AM.
#4724SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gehenna
yes

Originally Posted by Shakkha View Post
Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!

Well Shakka, I've recently joined a new guild; however, I've often played through raid content with PvP specced people. This includes frost mages, and although they may be "gimping" their overall damage doing so, they are present on the raid non-the-less.

In addition, I often raid with 0/21/40 warlocks who typically keep up curse of elements on the raids targets, whether this "gimps" their damage or not, I am not aware of. I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.

In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.

I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.

I'm not implying that frost shock is worth a raid creating this situation, just saying that it does occure withing the world of warcraft.

Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
#4725SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
Enh/elem is and always has been viable, it just wasnt, and probably still isnt, optimal. Personally though I feel that the gap has closed enough to tempt me back to it, as i feel it is a lot of fun.
#4726SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Yuck, very sorry. Please try the updated mod version (done this AM, added additional checks to respect the wshieldbar toggle).
#4727SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
Viable for what?
#4728SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.
Here's the OP:
Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8. Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. In the example above, with a 30% melee crit rate: If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40*130%+50)/50 = 2.04.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.
Our final expertise calculation is:
<br /> \text {AEP} = \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{15.8} \rfloor \times 15.8 \2.04 \times \text {Hit AEP} <br />*

*For a shaman with 30% crit. Adjust the 2.04 number for yourself per the formula above.

Last edited by Disquette : 11/12/07 at 3:27 PM.
#4729SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Ok and what changes do you want made to that?
#4730SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Oops, that was sloppy of me. I changed the OP in the quoted part to include my version. I'd love it if Rob or other people could give it a once over to confirm the wording.
#4731SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Dukanull
This whole suicide spec discussion is hurting my head, I want to get elemental devastation, but I can't live w/o the 3% hit and the totem range. I have a hard enough time keeping all 3 totem buffs on all 5 of my party members on mobile fights, and I don't even twist. I can't see this spec ever being bettter than our current enhance cookie cutter build.
#4732SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.

The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?

Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
#4733SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
The elemental shaman thread says that +Dmg is affected by Concussion.
#4734SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.

The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?

Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
I'm considering doing the same thing come 2.3. I cant justify the 3% hit for melee and spells loss and I like the extra range and melee damage change. I kind of assume that since spellhit is one of the best scaling stats for casters, it is probably better for us to pick up what we can of that rather than a few more points in the elemental tree.
#4735SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Well would you take 5% increase in shocks damge 15% in fire totems, 1 Second less on shocks Over 3% hit for spells and melee, 30 Yard totems & Improved Ankha ?

I didn't do the numbers yet but I would definitely be staying Enhancement/Resto seeing that the benefits are much more viable in a twisting raiding enviroment.

Improved Totem Range = Less repositioning totems = Less mana spent.

Improved Ankha = Used it at the last boss ? No worries it will be ready at the next one.

3% Hit = Only way to increase our Spell hit if we are going enhancement which generally means 3% increase in shock damge.
#4736SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
It's safe to say that we'll spend at least 45 points in Enhancement, leaving 16 points left over. Elemental as a second spec has always struck me as something that, while incredibly shiny, is a red herring. 5% more damage to shock spells is quite nice, but the % of your DPS that comes from shocks (~5%) is somewhat marginal. Reverberation is very attractive, especially with the new totem, however using the same logic, 3% spell hit is also very attractive.

Elemental Devastation is not, in my opinion, something which is worth going for. It's 15 points deep into the Elemental tree, and it works off of stats which we don't put any emphasis on at all. Yes, 3% melee crit is fantastic, but (and I'm judging this off my last two Gruul runs, TK last night was...horrible) I am looking at ~10% of my Flame Shocks miss, and only 3% of them crit. Speccing 15 points into Elemental so that 3% of the time I can gain 3% more melee crit is, in my mind, a waste. Especially considering that my FS miss would now be in the ~13-14% range, which would effect my use of the new totem, I don't see it as the spec for me. I'm going to probably be 0/45/16.

I think the other thing to consider is that we aren't Enhancement Shaman to wave around a nice blue-colored epeen on the meters. (Well I'm not, at least) We have a significant support roll. I don't think that a chance to get 10s of sightly increased crit rate, and better shock damage, is worth 10yds in totem range, 3% hit, and more health/mana on Reincarnate.
#4737SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Even with spell damage we have already conclusively shown that Elemental Devastation is not viable for any circumstances. The up time for the buff is stupidly low. Discussing value of shocks vs resto stuff, yah ok. That's worth talking about. But elemental devastation should just be off the table, period.
#4738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
For expertise use 3.95 opposed to 15.8 for maximum accuracy. Otherwise looks Ok if fix the formula display as its broken in post.

AEP = [(White + Yellow * (1+Crit)) / White] * [Floor(Exp_Ra/3.95) * 3.95 ] * Hit_AEP

I think thats the final formula?
#4739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shakkha
[quote=Gehenna;545198]I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.

In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.

I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.[quote]I didn't meant this in an aggressive way btw. But to explain better the situation, yes it could occure but that occurance is largely due to basically, no offense to them, other people screwing up.

Frost mage are very very very bad for raid dps. If that option is viable only because some other raid members make poor spec decision, i don't see how you can call that viable honestly, because i don't see 3 people taking advantage of COE, unless you mean you as an enhancement shaman, but honestly, the frost damage bonus is very marginal compared to the loss of Curse of Doom.

Although next patch, a bunch of mage will probably return to Fire, since the combine changed of TLC and MSD might very well means the end of the Arcane mage, which might mean the return of CoE, much to the joy of our Flame Shock damage. I am no mage, so i cannot tell if it will be a definitive change.
#4740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
One thing about expertise is that single item efficiency in it depends a lot in entire gear efficiency. And it, just like hit, has a cap. I guess best thing before actually adding is to see what everyone would like to state about expertise, i will start i guess:

Efficiency. Lets say have Vashj belt and Hydross shoulders for total of 35 expertise. That is so inefficient kinda as 31.6 is the effective expertise. Now lets add Brooch of Deftness and we get 56 expertise. While in singular it might not seem so efficient then we get effective 55.3 expertise rating.

Cap. Important to notice is 5% dodge with 1 expertise reducing 0.25% dodge gives 5 * 4 * 3.95 = 79 expertise rating ceiling for it. With orc that ceiling is actually 79 - 5 * 3.95 = 59.25 => 60 expertise rating. Extra expertise will not improve from behind, but from front parry is supposedly higher than 5% so it would still reduce that.

Another important note here is that formula assumes no parries, if we consider parry as well then AEP would be doubled until dodge is eliminated. Due to this it is by far best stat for shamans tanking by dps assuming healing wont be problem as no mail has expertise rating. That is not likely to change as well due to fact hunters do not benefit from expertise rating.
#4741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Edgemaster's Handguards - Items - World of Warcraft
#4742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Wait a moment, did they add 19 hit rating beside expertise there? Is that a bug or something?
#4743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Breathe
Hi all, i'm sort of in a twist atm and was hopeing to get a answer here or at least a little light shining on it.

It hooks up onto the GOA<>WF part of the OP and i was always following it until recently the physical DPS (melee/hunters/tanks) started asking/debating about it.
Our typical raid setup is 7/8 physical dps (1/2rogues, 1/2hunters. 1/2dps warrs, 1/2feral druids, 1/2hunters and sometimes 1 enhancement shaman (me) in any mixed and matched setup.
Me beeing Enhancement specced is usually when im either to lazy to spec back resto or when we got enough healing power.
Party setup is then me, 1dps war, 1hunter and either 2 rogues or 1 rogue and 1 feral druid (the non tanking one).
Basicly your standard recipe for dropping WF+SOE totem and lets knock some socks.

But, sometimes im paired with this one hybrid MM/SV specced hunter with 3/3 expose weakness.
He always asks for the (imp) agi totem, and he gets backuped by this one dagger rogue who seems to like his poison procs better then a wf proc and/or the feral druid.
The warrior/sword rogue combo insist on WF.
I usually drop the spelldmg totem and tell them to shut up and let me decide which totem because they are afteral my totems


Now, i'm in this selfish twist tbh.
When i drop the agi totem it gives the physical dps (and tanks) a 24.2AP (88+kings/4) buff and the rest of my party some nice crit extra.
When i drop WF totem only the DPS war and the sword rogue take a DPS buff, the dagger rogues sticks with his posions and the druid/hunter/me get nothig out of it.

The hunter has 800+agi and with elixir/food/scrolls/buffs he gets in around 1k agi wich is a almost permanent buff of 250AP for all dps/tanks (if i read the talent right)
Now, i'm not a maths master but isn't there any point at wich dropping the GOA totem for a surv hunter beats the WF totem for only the DPS war/sword rogue.


Maybe this was covered already, but i spent the last hour+ diggin thru 190pages of replies in this topic and trying the global search for "hunter+surviva+agi+totem" and "hunter+survival+goa".

For the ones that don't know the 3/3expose weakness talent a heart.

It gives the hunter a 100% chance (3/3) on a crit to apply an Expose Weakness effect. EW increases the AP of all attackers against the target with 25% of the hunters agi for 7seconds.
And with almost or more then 40% crit raid buffed you crit far more then once per 7seconds so its almost constantly up.

Atm i stick with WF totem, but when the warrior dies i switch to agi in a snap (when there is time).

is there anything conclusive to say about this or is it just as black/white as the OP says?
#4744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Jerem
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.

If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).

And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.

Last edited by Jerem : 11/13/07 at 10:01 AM.
#4745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Disquette I am updating the Expertise section now with your changes. Would it be correct if I said that in order to compare NewItem to CurrentGear, one could do this - ExpertiseCalculation(NewItem + CurrentGear) - ExpertiseCalculation(CurrentGear) ?

Would it be useful do you think to produce some graphs of how the value of Expertise changes based on changing % of Crit, White and Yellow DPS%?

Also, I would like to propose that we consider changing the term 'AEP' to just 'EP' to stand for Enhancement Points, since the term AEP was derived from the hunter/rogue Agility Equivalence Points and doesn't really make much sense.

Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 10:19 AM.
#4746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dukanull
Haste potion

Been doing some extensive searching this past week and been bugging the rogues in my guild as well and I can't seem to find an answer.

In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
#4747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
If you've got manually triggered buffs, activating everything at once is the way to go. If they're random procs you're probably going to be better off waiting for only one before using a consumable since it may take too long for all of them to be up.
#4748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Breathe
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.

If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).

And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.

I tried totemtwisting using Disquette's mod (wich is great for watching the WF timer) but in the end it costs insanly amounts of mana and time and i just didnt like it.

What i'm thinking about is is the fact of giving 9/10 ppl (7/8 physical dps+2/3 tanks) 24AP extra (thats the added value of GOA totem ontop of EW) and 5 ppl 88agi+kings (we always have kings) wich is a nice crit% for most melee classes not a better use of my totem then just 2 raiders who get extra swings (dps warr+rogue).

Ow, and i think the toothpickwielder is wrong to, but if it makes him happy.
#4749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
Originally Posted by Breathe View Post
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.
Indeed.
The calculations (that were made with WF proccing from "yellow" damages) lead to something like "depending on this warrior's stuff, WF totem will equal to between 100 and 200 more DPS for him alone" I think.
At least, it's an obscene 3-digit number that made me believe WF > GoA.

Even if that number is optimistic, it still ends up being more raid-dps than a total of 240 AP divided among 10 people. In my own opinion, that is.
#4750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah those links were removed because of the changes to WF totem making them invalid. Disquette only managed to do some limited testing on the 2.3 server so I don't think he got the full run of results he had hoped would settle this.
#4751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
It can be viable. Tanks get expertise for more TPS and we get 15% more aggro reduce. But we'll see. Anyway if there is no frost mage in the raid it's not worth using.
#4752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bubbahoof
A question about totem threat -

Flame totems generate their own threat - mobs attack the searing totem instead of the shaman casting it.

How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
#4753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Bubba: I did some non-conclusive testing and my feeling was, after it, that it does not effect my TPS. My threat is very spikey anyway, and with no +heal the totem was pretty weak. (This is why I say it's non-conclusive)

Edit: Actually, I have used it with a bunch of +heal. When we were doing some Karazan farming runs to gear some of our younglings, I was trying to see how much I could get it to tick for, so I equipped heal gear, popped ZG trinket (best trinket evar) and dropped the totem. It was ticking for >100 and I saw no noticeable threat increase for the fights.
#4754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof View Post
How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
Remember that heals are 50% threat of the effective healing done. A healing stream totem, even with 700-1000 spell damage, is not going to be a significant contribution of threat.
#4755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
#4756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0morgenday
hiyas, i use enhancer to calculate my AEP in game, just updated it today on the 13th before the patch, although i don't think it takes the new armor ignoring stat into account. if anyone knows just curious if i have to calculate that manually or if the mod does it for me. thanks!
#4757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
It reduces dodge/parry/block. Mobs can dodge, even from the back. You can take a look at WWS parses to observe this too. (I could be wrong, but I believe it's a 5% chance to dodge, 360 degrees)
#4758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Expertise reduces dodge and parry . Parry is frontal only. Boss mobs have 5.4% dodge and 5.4% or higher parry.
#4759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
#4760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
rava
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
That sounds like the lazy man's eckscuse, "they're going to nerf it so I'm not going to bother doing it". There was nothing in this patch to prevent it and I doubt there will be in any future patches until they revamp the totem system. A nerf to the duration/application of the WF buff can't realistically happen because the game in it's current form is balanced around arena.

I hardly consider twsiting a crutch, it's probably the easiest thing that you can do in a raid. It takes little to no attentiveness(hey look a purple bar), and while the "ficksing" of having wf/goa or wf/ta out at the same time will result in a net loss of raid dps I see zero reason to not abuse the system while you can.

As far as the ele/resto subbing, it will be totally playstyle/raid specific. I don't ever see myself putting less than 14 in resto, but I can only think of a handful of times(including progression) where I have ankhd. The only times I really die are when the shit hits the fan and ankhing would be pointless. If you pay attention to threat, your hp, your surroundings, and your potion/healthstone/bandage cooldown survival should be a nonissue making imp reincarnate useless.(imo!)

Last edited by rava : 11/13/07 at 3:51 PM. Reason: my ecks key is broken
#4761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ultima88
Shocks

Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.
#4762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by ultima88 View Post
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.
Run Demon and watch the debuff count. Don't flame shock when you're at 35+ debuffs. Earth shock otherwise and he can suck it up with less aggro for him. I'm sure he can catch up anyway.

There's no reason to listen to bullshit about pushing off buffs if you aren't near the cap at the time anyway.
#4763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
#4764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf View Post
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
If you guys don't want to believe what has been run into the ground please go and respec. Your loosing 6% to hit because you will loose 3% to your spell hit and 3% to melee which alows you to hit cap your melee specials so you can somewhat ignore to hit from equipment and gems. Overall dps is higher with this build. It was before the patch and it is after the patch. They have already run the numbers. This question has gotten as bad as people coming in here and asking what to hit number should they shoot for.
#4765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf View Post
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.

Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 6:01 PM.
#4766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
#4767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
I'm not saying I'm not on glue here, it's just my damage usually breaks down a little different.
50% white
30% WF
10% shocks
10% SS
1% Romeo Poison

Now this was before I read the first page here. I had 216'ish +hit and only +6% from talents. (I need to do some testing and then I'm sure I'll agree with everyone else.) It's just that I read from here that +hit basically is the last stat to work on and then I read that this patch is all about increasing shock damage.
#4768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tokageroh
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
I too had thought about this spec but I haven't had the time to do the math on it. Anyone else care to test/theorycraft it?
#4769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Xaanix
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP. In eyeballing the changes from low raid to mid raid ratings, it appears like haste rating became significantly more valuable than before.

Of all the gear that gives high raid exclusive stats (armor pen, haste), it appears that only fists of mukoa will actually outshine other high raid alternatives with normal stats like agi/crit/hit/ap.

I'm also interested to know how AP/Str will be weighted now that 2.3 is live. My intuition tells me that crit will be valuable early on, but once you have around 30% crit unbuffed, you'd probably want to favor AP a bit more because of the boost in shock/totem damage.

Based on this intuition, I intend to replace my low end crit based trinkets with AP related trinkets in the near future.

Last edited by Xaanix : 11/13/07 at 10:49 PM.
#4770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
An alternate look at the benefit of Elemental Devastation:

(Source, values for level 70)
1% hit = 15.76 hit rating
1% crit = 22.08 crit rating

3% hit = 47.28 hit rating
3% crit = 66.24 crit rating

Using the EP numbers from the first post (~T5+):
3% hit = 66.192 EP
3% crit = 132.48 EP

Without doing any further math it should be clear, at this point, that it is not going to work-out in favor of Elemental Devastation.

In order to get the 3% crit for 10 seconds, you have to crit with a shock. You will get 12 shocks per minute, with Concussion. Your base spell crit chance is 5%. (Most likely it will not be noticeably more than that with int, so lets leave it at 5%) This puts Elemental Devastation at 0.6ppm, best case, and totally ignores the effects of spell-misses.

132.48 EP * 0.6ppm * 1/6 (10sec on buff) = 13.248 EP

This is abysmal. Even ignoring n00b errors, which I'm sure I made in those calculations, it should be clear that Elemental Devastation is not a good investment of spec points.
#4771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
20% increase? I would have thought higher...

The 5 second shocks and 5% damage boost increase your shock DPS by 40%.
5 second shocks allow a 4 shock/20 seconds repeatable attack sequence with Stormstrike
(ie. [in format time/spell] 0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 6.5/ES, 10/SS, 11.5/FlaS, 16.5/ES, 20/SS, repeat]
With 6 second shocks, the rotation goes as follows:
(0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 7.5/ES, 10/SS, 13.5 FlaS, 20/SS] as the last shock would slow your SS rotation. (in general, my SS damage is higher or close to equal to my shock damage, so I would put SS as a more important rotation to keep up)
As such, with 6 second shocks, you only get 3 shocks every 20 seconds, on a repeatable attack sequence...
This added to the fact that you are getting 5% extra damage on all shocks means that you're getting the benefit of (105+105+105+105/100+100+100) = 1.4 = 40% extra damage.
Now it would depending on whether your shocks benefit you for more than 7.5% of your total DPS, and also would obviously have a lower effect on people who hold their SS's for when WF is off the cooldown. Yet again, that in itself brings about it's own mixed benefits/losses...

And if looking at a pure comparison of the two specs, then the small static extra bonus of ~10 DPS on searing totem is there too :P
#4772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Xaanix View Post
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP.
If someone wants to do the finger work of producing an Average T6 AP/Crit/Hit/Weapons set and then run a *lot* of yo's sim against those numbers then we can get some EP values for it. Otherwise, I'm content that at the high end a shaman can figure it out on their own.
#4773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Complete
Best Shaman PVE Max DPS build in 2.3??
#4774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
So with my numbers:
Shocks = 10% dps so 20% increase = 1.2*.1 = .12 + 5% more damage = .126 or a 2.6% increase in damage.
3% more hit to 50% damage (assuming no diminishing returns because of too much +hit) = 1.5% more damage from white.
3% more hit to 10% shock damage = .3% more damage from shocks.

It looks like 2.6% increase for better shocks versus 1.8% increase for more hit. Plus my comparison actually favors the +hit since I'm assuming my observed 10% from shocks. My shocks would go down without the 5 second CD. Plus I think it's going to be even more exaggerated with 2.3 when I'll get +525 to +825 bonus damage (depending on procs) from talents.
#4775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.

In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
#4826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Hello fellow shamans im posting for the first time here in the EJ forums.

I must express a complain:Now that we FINALLY have the 30% damage reduction due to new SR, why on earth do we have this noob talent called aniticipaton?or toughness (10% armor frm items YAY!)-.- ... Cant blizzard replace it with epxertise or something like that?Idont miss so often but those mobs keep DODGING all the time...Maybe blizz sould consider this?

Razzan

P.S. Im sure i clicked ''Aszune''.... :P
#4827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Welcome to a year ago? We've been complaining about those 2 talents ever since the 2.0 talent tree came out.
#4828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Hello Malan, erhm yeah i know but thought i d bring this up again for reasons like being fed up with DODGED STORMSTRIKES AND DODGED WINDURY ATTACKS.And since the OP (really good and helpful post btw)states that expertise would also affect yellow attacks,shouldnt it be a cookie cutter ability for shamans?

Razzan
#4829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cabe
Decap Vs Fool's bane OH

Is the Decapitator better than Fool’s Bane in the OH if you take into account OH penalty and Fool’s Banes Stats.

MH 1dps = 9.03
OH 1dps = 3.7 EP

Decapitator
92.1 dps
27 crit
567 damage cool down 3 min
(92.1 * 3.7) = 340.77 EP
(27 * 2) = 54 EP

[top] 394. 77 EP

Fool’s Bane socketed
87.5 Dps
28 crit
38 AP
(87.5 * 3.7)


323.75
(28 * 2) = 56
(38 * 1) = 38
= 417.75 EP

My only question is will throwing axe every 3 min be able to close the gap. And of course storm strike damages.. being that the decap has a higher top end damage even though the damage is cut in half by the OH penalty?

It’s my first post don’t flame me as I’m trying to figure out which one to use for OH
#4830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Malan
Just add the axe throw into the DPS for the Decapitator and count it that way. Since its a 3 minute cooldown its going to be fairly insignificant though, but it might close the gap some.

[e] I'm not sure if the axe On Use gets counted toward the OH penalty, if it doesn't, calculate it using the MH EP value and then add that to the total EP for the Decaptitator as an OH. If it does get counted under the OH penalty, then just figure out the dps (dmg/3min) and add that to the weapon dps and recalculate the total.

Last edited by Malan : 11/14/07 at 2:08 PM.
#4831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
The sims that I've run to answer that question for myself always ends with Fool's Bane being better even if you give the Decapitator the approximate 3 dps from the "on use."
#4832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
(513+567)/2/180 = 3 DPS
You can't just add it in to the weapon DPS, because it's not affected by attack power or melee crit rate. It is affected by spell crit rate, which we'll estimate as 5%.

You probably need to run the two combos through Yo's sim, and compare Fool's Bane DPS to Decapitator DPS + 3*1.05 DPS. Use whichever is higher. My guess here is that while Decapitator is the better MH, Fool's Bane is a better OH.

Of course, there is also some intangible value from having a 40-yard ranged attack, but that's more of a PvP/solo/5-man thing and probably minimal in raids.
#4833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
I agree with the Water Shield change. I love the change, it practically guarantees unless I'm a complete waste I will never run out of mana. But last night in The Eye, I recast it a couple times on reflex because I saw the timer so low. Not that it wasted mana, but it retarded the delivery of the free mana. It will take some time to get accustomed too.
I believe this was mentioned before, but I'll update it again since I think the mod name has changed.

I would recommend getting Avion (Formally PowerAura2)
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Avion

I setup an animated blue shield icon to appear whenever I lose the water sheild buff. Watching a 1minute timer all the time is just too much of a pain for me :P.

I also added one for my invigorate proc from T5.
#4834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Flame Shock vs Earth Shock

It looks like flame shock has a higher spell damage coefficient than earth shock. Didn't matter before, but it does now. (Source: Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

So flame shock gets 67% of your spell damage over the course of the DoT, compared to earth shock's 43%. Flame shock also has a higher base damage - 797 counting the DoT, vs earth shock's average 675.

Assuming 700 spell damage, Stormstrike, and no other debuffs...

Flame Shock: 377 base direct damage + 420 base DoT damage + 469 bonus from spell damage = 1266 damage

Earth Shock: average 675 base (658-692 damage range) + 301 bonus from spell damage, *1.2 from stormstrike = 1171 damage


So even without CoE and Scorch, flame shock > earth shock.


(I realize these numbers assume raid-buffed AP - around 2300 - but it doesn't matter. The damage from earthshock with SS debuff equals the damage from unbuffed flameshock at... uh, 281 AP. Last I checked we have more than that naked.)
#4835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Severjanin
Yeah, I'm now going back to FS ES rotation especially since I think we're gonna have some fire mages again.
I've gotten comfortable raiding with one shock button so I'll just use a /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock macro for total ezmode.
#4836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
I averaged 1079 per non-crit Earth Shock last night. I imagine that it's so low because my raid buffs were limited and only half of my Earth Shocks were getting SS bonus. (Since my high non-crit was 1281) Crit was 6.0%, average crit damage was 1703 with a high of 1848. I had 8.5% resists on Earth Shock. (Total ES damage was 205K for sample size referrence sake.)

What is my average damage per shock including crits and resists?

Non crit (100% - 6.0% - 8.5%) = 85.5% * 1079 = 923
Crit 6.0% * 1703 = 102
923 + 102 = 1025

So I averaged 1025 damage every time I hit my Earth Shock button last nigt. My Earth Shock is on a 5s coold down. So max dps I could have observed last night is 1025/5 = 205dps from Earth Shock.
#4837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cabe
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
The sims that I've run to answer that question for myself always ends with Fool's Bane being better even if you give the Decapitator the approximate 3 dps from the "on use."
The only reason i asked is in the OP it show Merciless > Decapitator > Fool Bane for OH which is false if Fools is better than Decap for OH
#4838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
That was just me making a guess sorry. I will rearrange that.
#4839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kagarr
New! Enhance dps ftw :)

Hey how's it going guys, I have read your forums for quite some time now. I am glad to see that alot of the stuff I have been doing to increase my dps during raids is supported by math and such.
2 questions, is amor pentration as good as it looks? how much aep is it worth and is it more viable then say crit or streng? Also depending on that answer, what about that new enchant. Is it better than mongoose? Thanks
~Kagarr
#4840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
frozndevl
I finally finished reading all 4841 posts of this lovely thread, and I wanted to say thanks to Malan, Disqo, Rob, Yo!, Hoof, and everyone else that has made this happen. I'm coming up on being able to hit some raids (not quite level 70) and since my guild is casual, no one there would have been able to help me out to the extent this thread has. Consider this a public Thank you and I promise I won't ask about my optimum +hit or if my 1.5 speed weapon is a good idea.

Last edited by frozndevl : 11/14/07 at 3:55 PM.
#4841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Kagarr View Post
Hey how's it going guys, I have read your forums for quite some time now. I am glad to see that alot of the stuff I have been doing to increase my dps during raids is supported by math and such.
2 questions, is amor pentration as good as it looks? how much aep is it worth and is it more viable then say crit or streng? Also depending on that answer, what about that new enchant. Is it better than mongoose? Thanks
~Kagarr
Not to be rude, but I don't think you have been reading for quite some time. There have been numerous discussions about both topics and the first post contains answers to at least one of them. Yes, I realize 194 pages is a lot to read through, but there is a fantastic tool known as "search this thread".
#4842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
Actually Rava Section V and Section VIII answer all his questions. And he signed his post. So being rude is ok.
#4843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Grogimer View Post
Actually Rava Section V and Section VIII answer all his questions. And he signed his post. So being rude is ok.
I'm willing to say be 50% rude. Expertise has undergone some major revision and even with the 15.x vs. 3.x figures sorted out, it still isn't as succinct as the other AEP values. Expecting people without a math background to understand what discontinuity and summed across all expertise values means is a bit rough.

As for Executioner, section V clearly indicates we haven't fully sorted it out but Mongoose appears to be better than Executioner particularly at entry gear levels.

So he 50% sucks for not reading the first post.
#4844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
@Mbuzi
True, Expertise has gone through alot of changes. However, he did not ask about it nor the math behind it. He asked 3 questions.
1. Is Armor Penetration as good as it looks. Since i can not physically look at Armor Penetration and we are not comparing Chris Farley in a thong to Jesica Alba in one, this is subjective on what you have currently. So both section V and VIII apply since we are not going to break it down for him by looking at his equipment.
2. AEP Value. Is in section VIII
3. Although not completly broken down he has a range he can look at that makes sense. If he is in Tier 4 or less Mongoose. In 6 more than likely Executioner.
#4845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Small typo in section VIII.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 6 expertise rating (all weapons).
Shoulderpads of the Stranger add 10 expertise rating, at some point in test this wasn't a 1 to 1 ratio? (which is why I'm assuming its 6 here)
#4846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yah it must have been at one point.
#4847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Grogimer View Post
@Mbuzi
True, Expertise has gone through alot of changes. However, he did not ask about it nor the math behind it. He asked 3 questions.
1. Is Armor Penetration as good as it looks. Since i can not physically look at Armor Penetration and we are not comparing Chris Farley in a thong to Jesica Alba in one, this is subjective on what you have currently. So both section V and VIII apply since we are not going to break it down for him by looking at his equipment.
2. AEP Value. Is in section VIII
3. Although not completly broken down he has a range he can look at that makes sense. If he is in Tier 4 or less Mongoose. In 6 more than likely Executioner.
I've been thinking more about this and decided to run some numbers to see if we could come up with a decent estimation for EP of Expertise that might belay some of the more painful questions.

Clearly the EP formula relies on estimations of hit EP, crit%, etc. This is going to introduce variability and make so we can never an exact number. I tried to found a boundary case where the floor calculation would be off by the most. At 59 Expertise Rating you have 59/3.95 = 14.94. This is the lowest expertise I could find with the largest difference between exact and floor value.

I then ran the EP calculation for Hit EP values of 1.4 and 1.5. In the most floor disparate case I came up with Expertise EP:Hit EP = 2.05:1. In a case doing floor properly I came up with 1.91:1. This is in line with what another poster came up with several pages back. A lower hit rating value would give something below 1.9:1 For now I'm personally happy to multiply my Hit EP by 1.9 for approximation sake.

It may save lots of dumb questions later to use an approximation similar to this to give Expertise Rating an actual value of 2.55 (T4) and 2.66 (T5) in VIII.1 Itemization - Stat Weights with the note to see further down for a more rigorous treatment.

ps - I understand being annoyed at clearly answered questions and my very first post here received an infraction for ranting about this. I've learned to pipe down, read, and only contribute if I have something worthwhile.

EDIT: Huge oops, sorry Malan, meant Expertise, not Armor Pen

Last edited by Mbuzi : 11/14/07 at 5:28 PM.
#4848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Wait ... what? We already have an EP value for Armor Penetration. 0.25 conservatively, and most will find that its 0.3 when they run the sim.
#4849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Wait ... what? We already have an EP value for Armor Penetration. 0.25 conservatively, and most will find that its 0.3 when they run the sim.
Corrected post, sorry, I typed in Armor Pen meaning to talk about Expertise.
#4850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
#4976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Kreltok View Post
With an enhancement shaman, to determine if his DPS is worth bringing just think like this.

Enhancement shaman might be doing 800 DPS (a bit on the low side)
But his melee group is getting 150DPS+ (200+ for fury warriors) each from having him in the group.

If you are running a melee group without an enhancement shaman, you are missing out.
Dunno what enhancement shamans you been looking at but I do 1400-1500 DPS consistantly on most bosses, upto 1700-1800 on certain bosses (Teron, RoS for example). In karazhan gear I was able to do 1000 dps, pre 2.3 so 800 is wayyyyy too low.

For well geared rogues, from personal experience they gain 5-6% extra damage from WF, which you can look at around 60-100 dps depending on fight. MS warriors actually gain less from WF, if they use a tight slam cycle they may only get 2-3% extra from WF. Most raid buffed rogues/warriors will have ~2500-3000 AP (excluding procs) so unleased rage is adding 250-300 AP minimum to the other 4 dpsers in the group. So the main benefit of a enhancement shaman is actually unleashed rage + personal DPS, whether or not this is > than the damage of one of the other melee dps in the raid is dependant on player + gear I guess.
#4977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Anyway :
An enhance chaman does ~80% of an equally geared/skilled rogue (when you put them in the same group). The chaman improves the melee's dps in his group by about 15 to 20% (windfury + strength totem + 10% attack power aura). If you take a standard melee dps group (fury warrior, feral druid, 3 rogues) and replace a rogue by an enhance chaman you will undoubtly see an increase in dps.
Thats very, very wrong. Since 2.3 our damage is way higher than 80% of a rogues, it's easily 90% on most fights, with the exception of certain fights with threat limits/clos advantage.

Just for example (hope they work), this is a Hyjal clear this week. Don't think anyone was using consumables, well I know I wasn't atleast.

Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal - He aggro'd some npcs for first 30 secs of fight screwing up everyones dps
Archimonde wipe (he had 20k hp left till 10% lol)
Archimonde kill

Pretty average clear, was just a farm raid so can't say everyone was doing thier max dps.

Oh, you can also see I was getting a 40-45% uptime on the stonebreaker totem.
#4978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Peterbilt View Post
1. AEP (or EP) values fluctuate depending on your stats. i.e. if you have 400 STR, the EP value will be lower than if you had 200 STR.
Yes, EP values fluctuate depending on stats. No, if you have 400 STR, the EP value of 1 STR won't be lower than if you had 200 STR -- because AP (and therefore STR) are the baseline stats for this system. But, if you have 400 AGI, the value of 1 AGI will be lower than if you had 200 AGI, and the same holds true for crit rating, hit rating, and haste rating. Armor penetration scales in a weird way and probably has a constant EP value for a given set of other values.
2. With that in mind, my current gear set puts me at approx 420 str unbuffed, and 178 agi unbuffed. Should I start looking for agi + atk pwr pieces over str pieces to bring agility back on par with my str?
No, that's not how you do it. Get a set of EP numbers, and then run the numbers on items that are available to you. If one item is 130 EP and has AGI/AP and another item is 150 EP and has STR, you pick the 150 EP item -- you don't care what stats are on it. I happen to have more AGI than STR, but it's not because I'm actively pursuing AGI/AP items, it's because those are the best available to me when I run the numbers. Run the numbers, there's no way around it.
3. Is there a simulator like Yo's that calculates off actual gear input instead of number inputs? I realize that Yo's gives the true mathmeticians much more detailed ability, but I'd like to know if there's something out there where you can input the gear pieces and it calculates based off that.
Tornhoof's sim (look in the OP or search) is intended to do this. It's still under development. There are also other sims that claim to be able to do this, but their accuracy sucks.
#4979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Ok I updated the DPS of searing totem to 100-150, and added a note on Stonebreaker about the 10 sec cooldown. Does that cooldown change the uptime calculation?
#4980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jamoth
DST

@Malan: some nights ago i was discussing with tornhoof about the estimation of AEP of DST as you assume it has a 1.5ppm. As DST has an internal CD we wonder what procchance DST has when beeing outofCD. So I went on the PTR with a rogue and did some testing. I assume it has an internal CD of 45 seconds and a procchance outofCD of ~10%. Prof me wrong, but 1.5ppm as you state might be wrong, 1.0-1.1 would be a better guess I think which would end in 120AEP at 1.0ppm.
(proc, 45sec cd, and about 20 hits for the next proc which is >10seconds).
#4981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Is there evidence of a 45 sec cooldown?
#4982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Ok I updated the DPS of searing totem to 100-150, and added a note on Stonebreaker about the 10 sec cooldown. Does that cooldown change the uptime calculation?
Presumably, the uptime calculation as written is valid as long as the result is greater than 10 seconds (and it's currently at ~14).
#4983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shery
This might be a rather stupid concern; but taking into account that im dual wielding the same weapon (and thus they have the same speed)... is it really relevant if I choose to enchant my MH or my OH with Moongose/Crusader? If im not wrong they should proc the same on both (we hit with our two weapons the same number of times and our stormstrike is a dual attack). Am I right on this or does the hit rating of our OH have a rather big influence on it? Thanks in advance

Pd: in the Op it says: "Some information on Executioner can be found here. Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond Executioner will be valuable to have on either hand. (It does not matter which hand you enchant)"; but im not sure if this last part is referring only to the executioner enchant or to general procs of weapon enchants.

Last edited by Shery : 11/18/07 at 7:05 PM.
#4984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vim
Mongoose MH
Crusader OH

You would be better off DW Mongoose though. The OP shows that Mongoose > Sader > Potency. Both enchants will probably be proccing on each available CD, so to be honest I doubt it really matters which hand you put either on, but use Mongoose on the weapon you will be keeping longer. Doing this also reduces the number of /w " Noob!! put Sader on OH lololol!" youll be getting from people.
#4985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shery
Hehe ok Vim; thx a lot for the advice ^^
#4986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
OH does not suffer any sort of proc penalty, so no, it doesn't matter which hand.
#4987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
#4988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
Post how it turns out for you. I've been thinking of getting it on my OH too, butttttt double mongoose procs are so nice :/

Has anyone done any solid maths yet?
#4989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Rapparee
excutioneer OH vs. MH

Since this is theorycrafting:
IF procs apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you should put executioner on your MH.
IF procs do NOT apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you put executioner on your OH.

I have no combat logs to prove this. It's simple logic applied to the game mechanics.
Scenario1 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES NOT benefit from that proc.
2. The character has non-synchronized attacks. (i.e. dual wielding, the weapons rarely strike at exactly the same time on the server. Don't worry about storm strike)

In this case, the way to get the maximum amount of main hand attacks during the executioner proc is to have the executioner enchant on your offhand. So that the offhand produces the proc giving you executioner buff and your main hand swing is somewhere in the middle of it's cycle time, not at the absolute beginning of the cycle.

Scenario2 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES benefit from that proc.
2. You don't care if you have have synchronized attacks.

In this case you naturally want the executioner enchant on your main hand, since your main hand will receive the full duration of the proc for atacks.


Scenario3 assumptions:
1. You use synchronized attacks. Both weapons are always the same speed and you don't screw up the out-melee enter melee range with auto-attack on playstyle.
You simply shouldn't care what hand has the proc, since both weapons are always striking at the same time, you will either receive the full benefit or miss out on an entire swing timer's worth of the benefit of any proc.

Scenario4 assumptions, only one enchant of mongoose is available to me:
Mongoose gives 120 agility and some haste, that means you already "hit" or "crit" in order to produce the proc, therefore the hit/crit itself gains no critical strike bonus from any new source of agility. Since you're not a rogue or hunter and gain no AP from agility, your damage will not be increased on the hit that produces the proc regardless of whether it should.
Therefore if for some reason only one of your weapons has mongoose, you should always place it on your offhand, so that your main hand will spend the maximum amount of time under the duration of the mongoose proc.

Naturally if your mongoose enchanted weapon kicks the crap out of your other weapon, then put it in your main hand.


FINAL NOTE: Disquette says (in a few posts) that the hit that created the Unleashed Rage proc never benefitted from UR. Therefore, scenario1 is probably the safest way to think about the situation. Thanks for that information Disquette, sorry that my post was confusing.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/19/07 at 3:44 PM. Reason: editted for clarity
#4990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Executioneer should go on the MH, since it will provide the biggest return in terms of damage from a main hand hit.
The buff affects both weapons why would it matter what hand you put it on?
#4991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
I'm currently using Executioner on my MH. I put it on my Decapitator the first time I saw someone offering the enchant and again on my Netherbane (which replaced the Decapitator). I like it enough where I'll always have one of my weapons with it. I don't have any sort of math or WWS to prove whether it is really better or not. But it seems to be doing well and that's good enough for me.
#4992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
All I can tell you is how it feels. I cant be very objective here because of several factors.
1) I got it the day of 2.3 which had a ton of buffs.
3) I got 2 new items that day (chest/syphon (the new executioner weapon))

It feels like a superior enchant on one weapon, I set several new records on RoS the next day with it. However that is only to be expected given that mongoose does not actually give higher damage numbers, just more crits. In any case my thinking on it is that its approximately the same proc rate, bonuses to crit (basically all mongoose is to us at ~5% crit and 3% haste) have less degrees of return the more of it that you have. However something like executioner works exceptionally well with other armor penetration items anyway so you can only go up with an enchant like executioner.

again however this is just my viewpoint on this and there is no real fact here.
#4993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
Totem Twisting Addon

There used to be a mod that would aid in totem twisting, it's no longer on the first post. Can someone give me the link to that mod pretty please? Or is it no longer functional and thus removed for good?
#4994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Its still there, its Disquette's mod. Look in the Useful Links section.
#4995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
It's in my sig, Ecomix. Twisting is turned off by default. do /dqd twist to enable that bar.

Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Thats very, very wrong. Since 2.3 our damage is way higher than 80% of a rogues, it's easily 90% on most fights, with the exception of certain fights with threat limits/clos advantage.

Just for example (hope they work), this is a Hyjal clear this week. Don't think anyone was using consumables, well I know I wasn't atleast.

Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal - He aggro'd some npcs for first 30 secs of fight screwing up everyones dps
Archimonde wipe (he had 20k hp left till 10% lol)
Archimonde kill

Pretty average clear, was just a farm raid so can't say everyone was doing thier max dps.

Oh, you can also see I was getting a 40-45% uptime on the stonebreaker totem.
You may be suffering from a lack of performance of your other raid dps (from gear, talent builds, playstyle, whatever). I've done 1440 dps on Rage Winterchill (compared to your 1580), and you have much superior gear to mine (I've upgraded since then, and I still have no BT or Hyjal loot). On a fight like that, our rogues who are geared in BT/Hyjal just destroy me, usually in the 1800 to 2150 dps range. 1800 dps compared to your 1580 is a 14% increase. the 2150 dps compared to your 1580 is a 36% increase. The 2150 isn't standard, I realize, as he has the twinblades legendary set, but even our lesser Hyjal/BT rogues pull 1800.

Here are the only 2 wws's I see easily available.

Wow Web Stats
(the 1700 dps rogue is pvp spec'd :p )

Wow Web Stats
(note - this was the one week we didn't have an enhance shaman in raid, top rogue dps is still 1984)

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm guessing you really know how to play well, and your dps shows it. The rest of your raid may need to step it up some, however, for you to see the same sorts of ordering that many posters here are used to.

Also, I know you said since 2.3, but do you believe that you are doing 15% more damage than you used to pre-patch?
#4996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mkael
Hi first post so I assume you should expect the normal ignorant stuff but lets hope I surprise you.

Ok I have followed this thread a long while and followed most of the recommendations to the letter, I also always specced into resto for the 3% hit bonus (as well as increased range and totem cost).

In a deluded moment after I got the Stonebraker totem I thought "hey this is 10sec cd 50% chance so why not see how much uptime I can get by speccing into reverberation.". Now as you can imagine its a silly thought the increased uptime is minimal but hey was a thing of the moment.

Anyway I raided SSC with it (Wow Web Stats) and when I looked at the WWS log after I started to wonder how much the shock damage increase was compared to what 3% hit would give me.

So I calculcated the 3%hit value out of the melee damage (afaik wf and the rest is hit capped so 3% hit doesnt mean anything for those given your base hitrating is enough) and compared it to the increased amount of shocks by their average value and I always got more dmg out from shocks than from the hit.

Calculation example from Mkaels try on Morogrim.
Melee damage= 202317, 15.2% misses
Earth Shock damage= 26900, 24 hits, avg=1120
Flame Shock damage= 45223, 29 hits, avg=1559

For ES we get 24 hits on 5 sec CD which gives 120sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 20hits.
Thus for ES we gain= 26900-20*1120= 4500

For FS we get 29 hits on a 5 sec CD which gives 145sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 24hits.
Thus for FS we gain= 45223-24*1559= 7807

These combined gives a total of about 12300.

For the 3%hit we just do (202317/(100-15.2))*3= 7157

Granted this is a bit simplistic, the extra hits and the potential impact from them isnt included but its hard to track also it isnt a huge impact and also correspondingly we dont take into consideration the increased shock damage (5%) or fire totem damage (15%).

I looked over several WWS logs linked in this thread and come to the same conslusion in all the ones I looked at.

So plz tell me what I am doing wrong here or is the 2.3 changes so good that speccing elemental for the increased shock value such a boost?

/Mkael
#4997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
It feels like a superior enchant on one weapon, I set several new records on RoS the next day with it. However that is only to be expected given that mongoose does not actually give higher damage numbers, just more crits. In any case my thinking on it is that its approximately the same proc rate, bonuses to crit (basically all mongoose is to us at ~5% crit and 3% haste) have less degrees of return the more of it that you have. However something like executioner works exceptionally well with other armor penetration items anyway so you can only go up with an enchant like executioner.
Since you relate your records to RoS, I'm going to assume you'r talking about p1?
The armor level of p1 has been calculated to be 0, which would mean that your new records are only because of your new weapon.
#4998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Mkael,

I'm not totally convinced that for a personal dps scenario, elemental isn't competitive, or even better (I'm going to leave imp ankh and totem radius alone). However, don't forget that the 3% hit from nature's guidance also applies to spell hit, so your shocks will be resisted more as well.

I actually am inclined to think that the elemental build would do better, but there are four things preventing me from playing with it much:
1) I value the totem radius more than the extra couple % the elemental build would add
2) I haven't followed all the math that closely where people have gone over this. My own feeling is that it's more dps, but many of the posters here who I hold in high regard I believe have expressed doubt that reality would match my gut feeling. That's a big incentive for me to stick with the resto side.
3) In pvp and heroics, I end up casting healing wave a reasonable amount, so the utility from resto as a non-raider isn't trivial.
4) It's just different, and until I see some very clear data (sims would be fine, if they're comprehensive), I tend to stick to tried and true.

To be quite honest, once damage meters start incorporating fire totem and assigning it to the person that dropped it, I suspect many shaman will indeed change to an elemental build for superior personal damage parses.
#4999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Since this is theorycrafting:

I'll go with some assumptions, that I hope I'm remembering correctly.
If an attack produces a proc... you receive the benefit of that proc on that hit, when it makes sense.

So if the proc is 320more haste, you don't get any benefit on the hit that produced the proc. Haste makes no sense since the attack already landed.

If the proc gives 120 agility, that means you already "hit" or "crit" in order to produce the proc, therefore the hit/crit itself gains no critical strike bonus for agility. However if you get AP from agility, your damage will be increased.

If the proc gives an armor reduction, that means you will do more damage, as long as the target had any armor as you hit it.

CONCLUSION - straight up theory, i have no proof that the executioneer proc will adjust the damage of the hit that created the proc:
Since an offhand weapon is reduced in damage done... Given two equal weapons, shaman and warriors should always put mongoose in their offhand first. Since mongoose does nothing for them on the hit that procc'd it.

Executioneer should go on the MH, since it will provide the biggest return in terms of damage from a main hand hit.

Rogues have to figure out if the AP bonus from mongoose is better than executioneer for the main hand... I'd wager a guess that if the mongoose is better for their main hand they'll just double mongoose anyway making this part of the post moot.
I'm sorry if this is quoting too much text, but it's all relevant, I believe to my response. When you attack and proc unleashed rage, the attack that proc'd it doesn't get the UR benefit. This is how I recall it working from way back when, when I was first building my simulator and I was swinging at servants in blasted lands with 0.9 dps weapons (low damage range) for the express purpose of seeing how things like this worked.

As a result, I'd say you'd actually want executioner on your OH so you don't have to wait a full main hand delay before the main hand benefits from it. Conversely, if mongoose is worth more to you, then you'd want mongoose on your OH so that the MH would benefit from the added crit sooner.

If you have rock solid data to prove me wrong, that's fine. Anyone can test this with unleashed rage, however, using exactly the method I mentioned above - get a low damage range weapon, wear your normal gear, and swing away for a few procs with a combat log running.
#5000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
We're doing Teron -> Illidan tomorrow most likely, so I'll get back with a parse with Executioner on my OH.
#5026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Yo, if you're out there -- I need Expertise Rating, Executioner and Stonebreaker options, buddy. Pretty sure [Shifting Camouflage Pants] are the best thing since sliced bread but would like confirmation before I burn 75 badges. PS: you need a tip jar, too!
#5027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Wow Web Stats

WWS for Teron -> Illidan with Mongoose / Executioner.
#5028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Skiace
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Yo, if you're out there -- I need Expertise Rating, Executioner and Stonebreaker options, buddy. Pretty sure [Shifting Camouflage Pants] are the best thing since sliced bread but would like confirmation before I burn 75 badges. PS: you need a tip jar, too!
Maintaining decent shock spam on a long stationary fight (Tidewalker, and I never got graved) I got an uptime for the stonebreaker buff around 35%, so you can crudely add a static 38ap for it in Yo's sim. Yo's sim is not going to be able to model anything but perfect shock spam anyway, so I don't think much is lost by including it in this manner.

As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them. Unless you're already stacked with really high amounts of armor penetration, I don't see the mail beating out the leather badge rewards.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/19/07 at 7:43 PM.
#5029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Finally got our WWS updated. Here's a few of the more melee dps friendly encounters:

WWS - Teron
WWS - Kaz'rogal
WWS - Shade of Akama
WWS - Reliquary of Souls
#5030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Stop attributing all the fire totem damage to you, you cheat. :P
#5031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Not my logs! I'm not sure how many he's attributing to me.

Actually I think the only fight I might have gotten more than my fair share was RoS.
#5032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
All 'Searing Totem', 'Fire Nova Totem', 'Magma Totem', 'Greater Fire Elemental Totem' and 'Earth Elemental Totem' damage count as 1 entity each (as in all the damage ALL Searing Totems do are merged into 1 Searing Totem).

So, all of them!
#5033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
I know they do, and they're all mine. Except on RoS. Please explain the finer points of WWS to me.
#5034SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Not my logs! I'm not sure how many he's attributing to me.

Actually I think the only fight I might have gotten more than my fair share was RoS.
To be fair, the only one I checked was Teron where it was just an extra five Searing Totems.
#5035SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Sebudai
Actually I forgot to account for the Searing Totem crits so I'm probably being attributed a decent amount of extra damage on average. Anyway, the purpose of us all posting these WWS was to illustrate the affect 2.3 had on our shock damage. That's pretty much all that has changed for me, other than Shamanistic Rage being completely overpowered on a lot of fights because of the 30% damage reduction. Mana wasn't an issue for me before, and it's even less of one now.

It's pretty fun having infinite mana. The rotation we can use requires much more focus after you start working in totem twists and Fire Nova Totem's. I still mess up the shocking quite a bit and lose a decent chunk of damage from that.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/19/07 at 11:27 PM.
#5036SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I need to work on my e-sarcasm it seems . I was merely saying that the amount you'd gain from another Shamans' totems would be so awesomely overpowered that we totally shouldn't add the damage to ours! It's so totally cheating! Nevermind me, long day and I'm tired :P.

On a more serious note, I don't think I regret enchanting Executioner on my Syphon, seems to be better than double Mongoose anyway, but that's just a gutfeeling as its very hard to compare them really.
#5037SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Yeah, I don't think the other shaman keep it down nearly as consistently as I do, in fact I'm willing to bet they probably cast it only once on a fight like Teron where it just dies quickly, but even then Searing Totem is going to be a decent chunk of dps. Especially after 2.3. I think I'll have him only attribue Fire Nova Totem to me from now on. Or just have the other shaman not drop fire totems for the sake of seeing how well it actually does.
#5038SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
What kind of rotation do you use? I actually still only use Searing on fights unless there is some AoE component (Reliquary, Akama, Illidan, ...)
#5039SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vingumminr9
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
Maintaining decent shock spam on a long stationary fight (Tidewalker, and I never got graved) I got an uptime for the stonebreaker buff around 35%, so you can crudely add a static 38ap for it in Yo's sim. Yo's sim is not going to be able to model anything but perfect shock spam anyway, so I don't think much is lost by including it in this manner.

As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them. Unless you're already stacked with really high amounts of armor penetration, I don't see the mail beating out the leather badge rewards.


Okay .. i know this aint about this discussion ^^ But how do you get the a link that shows the item when u "mouseover" it ?
#5040SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by vingumminr9 View Post
Okay .. i know this aint about this discussion ^^ But how do you get the a link that shows the item when u "mouseover" it ?
["item"]Mace of Awesome["/item"] but without the quotes
#5041SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Desall
As I'm the other shaman in Khaels (Illundai) logs.
I've been popping searing on Gorefiend, Bloodboil, RoS, Illidan.
In retrospect I could've done so on Shahraz and council as well but forgot.

I'm pretty sure Khael has a way better uptime as I'm often distracted by healing.
#5042SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
The whole Fire totem ownage thing should be fixed with the new combat log API in 2.4. Instead of text strings that have to be parsed every time, addons will be getting well structured data. This should also greatly enhance threat and damage meters.

The combat logging mechanism is completely overhauled with explicit data instead of text strings delivered to the UI. See slouken's post below for a sneak-peak at some of the current details. Highlights include detailed flags indicating relationship of involved units to player, unique identifiers for units with the same name within the combat log -- great for log analysis.
#5043SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tana Umaga
Um, this may have been talked about before, but the forum has soooo many pages... and now that it came out...

Do you use Fire Nova on bosses? Or any other Fire totem? I use Searing Totem when there´s no problem with adds being unsheeped, unfrozen and the like, but never thought on using Fire Nova. Not even bound xD

And of course Fire Elemental (although sometimes i am a bit afraid... does anyone knows if the elemental is subjected to proximity debuffs such as wrath of the astromancer?).

Thank you guys, this thread is wonderful, i´ve learnt a lot about my class.
#5044SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shakkha
I have a question about Ring enchants, i don't believe it has been discussed before.

Right now i use +2 dmg on both my rings, but i'm having a hard time trying to figure out how those are to be considered in terms of AEP, to compare with the now easily accessible +4stats enchant.

Does anyone know which would be the best to use? Or just how many +2dmg enchant can be translated in terms of AEP. I assume it would depend on weapon speed, i'm dual wielding 2.7 weapons.
#5045SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Thanks a bunch for the reply. It would indeed be interesting when people are going all out, what the ordering is. On the other hand, Yo!'s sim *should* show our max theoretical dps. Similarly, the rogue dps spreadsheet from their forum thread should show theirs. I'm in a rush now, but it might be interesting to see how the dps comparison *should* be given similar gear and effort.
Yo's sim gives me a theoretical dps of 1658, with only the normal group buffs/raid buffs (Battle shout, motw, might, kings + flask) using 3000 armor. I think it may actually be an underestimate, altho it's hard to say exactly how much armor bosses have now days with all the debuffs active, on teron this week I had 1560 dps without a flask/excluding totems but I have no idea what the armor was (full sunders, CoR, FF etc).

On RoS phase one I'm able to do 2200-2400 DPS, but ofc the boss has no armor in that phase so again it's alittle unrealistic.
#5046SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
+2 damage to both weapons.(no oh penalty)
So AEP value for 2.7speed weapons
2 *(2 / 2.7) = 1.481481wDps
Using 8.48 Aep per wDps +2dam = 12.56Aep

Stats is superior.
16.8Aep + 4* stamina, int & spi.
#5047SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Wow Web Stats

WWS for Teron -> Illidan with Mongoose / Executioner.
I'm not exactly sure how to work out if executioner has provided any benefit or not, the numbers you get are pretty much in the same range as mine for those bosses so it doesn't *look* like any advantage.

On a different note, you guys still using your ashtongue talisman? I've gone back to my brooch (waiting for the ZA trinket to drop) as I was getting a really lame uptime with the other, with SS dodges and stuff it felt like it was only up every 20-30 seconds :/
#5048SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
On the stonebreaker totem, from my logs I've got:

Rage - 39% proc rate (9 procs from 23 shocks) with a uptime of 39% (90 seconds of 226.8 seconds combat)
Aneth - 35% proc rate (11 from 31) with a uptime of 28%
Archimonde - 42% proc rate (16 from 38) with a uptime of 39%
Archimonde 2 - 47% proc rate (18 from 38) with a uptime of 43%

(sorry if this has been said before) The problem with the totem imo is that you will always use a shock during when its active, so efftectively its only available to proc from 50% of your shocks at a 50% proc rate (however I feel this may be higher) since when I do shock it nearly always procs, feels alot more like 75% proc rate, anyone else?
#5049SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Icon of Unyielding Courage - Items - World of Warcraft Icon of Unyielding Courage where would this come on the trinket charts?
#5050SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vykromond
Using the values in the section "VIII.1 Itemization - Stat Weights",

[Icon of Unyielding Courage]

Entry Raid: (1.34*30)+((600*(20/120))*.22)= 62 EP
T5 Raid: (1.4*30)+((600*(20/120))*.28)= 70 EP

It's pretty bad. You'd be better off with the Hourglass and Abacus from other 5-mans.
#5051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok this Executioner discussion is getting stupid. "Oh yah its great here's a random WWS parse which does nothing to illustrate how good/bad it is!"

Come on. Use the tools we have available. We have an EP stat weight for Armor Penetration. Yo's sim can be easily manipulated to test it as well. Figure out the estimated passive -Armor benefit that execution provides and add that in the sim to your -Armor stat, and remove mongoose from one weapon. Run the sim. Compare against running the sim with double mongoose.

I cannot fathom how we've now got 2-3 pages of people asking the same shit over and over about "has anyone tested Executioner yet????"

@Pitbuller - you just used an EP value for a 2.7 weapon, while the ones we have available are only for 2.6 speed. Did you calculate a 2.7 EP value recently? If so, hand the values over!
#5052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Pitbuller
8.48 and 4.24 is EP values for all same speed weapons(assuming equal wf procs). Purely theory based. Only thing what mess things up is how windfury procs divided beetween mh and oh.

EDIT: Yo's simulator give same dps to 12.56ap or 0.741dps to mh and 1.482dps(no oh penalty) to oh.
EDIT2: The whole wDPS is now 10% higher than its should be becouse of mental quickness.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 11/20/07 at 12:07 PM.
#5053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
#5054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them.
Not quite at T5, so whatever badge pants I get will be a substantial upgrade. Assuming T4 doesn't drop tonight (my melee would love +12 STR).

I was thinking [Shifting Camouflage Pants] would be nice for when Executioner procs, but comparing them with my personal EP factoring in Executioner as a full time buff (for s&g), [Shallow-grave Trousers] are still way better.

Sigh...was hoping I'd have at least one mail upgrade with this patch.
#5055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
The leather badge rewards are pretty superior to the mail ones overall. Slightly annoying since none of the leather I was considering as an in-between upgrade had any -Armor on it, but all the mail does (but would be a downgrade in most cases).
#5056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
The only reason my parse is there to illustrate the proc rate, which is the important part for a lot of people I presume? I might be dumb or retarded, but since when can you run the sim and add a value for a proc without knowing it's uptime? From what I can read in the Executioner thread, no one even knows how much PPM it is, or how much the proc chance is. It wildly varies, not to mention all the people in that thread are warriors or rogues.

So for those who didn't really pay attention to my parse, my Executioner had similar amount of procs to Mongoose, however the annoying part is that the refreshing of the buff isn't counted by WWS, so yah it's probably best to assume same ppm and procrate as Mongoose. And if you haven't read the other thread, the proc % is estimated to be about 5.1% - 7.4% and a ppm of 1.09 - 1.51. But they have wildy different numbers in between tests with weapons with different weapon speed, and so forth.

Pretty much means that it's very hard to calculate the difference between Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner. From personal experience, it's not worse at least. If it's better or not is going to depend on your own EP values and preferences. I think I'll be sticking to it, just only for the glow already!
#5057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
Wdps EP isnt for comparing different speed weapons.
If you use faster but same speeded weapons your dps will fall but ep value for ap isnt change same thing goes for Wdps ep.
#5058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?
Mongoose Proc is 120 agi and 2% haste (31.52 haste rating at lvl 70). Using the AEP in the OP, this is (120 * 2) + (31.52 * 1.48) = 286.65 AEP

Executioner is 840 Armor Pen. 840 * 0.25 = 210 (low estimate) or 840 * 0.30 = 252 (my value from Yo!)

Just some thoughts on this: The AEP value I got for AP was 0.3 from Yo!'s sim. The change in AEP value from 0.25 to 0.30 netted 42 AEP. The low-gear AEP estimate is 0.19, which gets Executioner 159.6 AEP. In order for executioner to have the same AEP as Mongoose, the AEP value for AP needs to be 0.34. (840 * x = 287) Executioner's benefits are 100% gear dependent, so there should be a crossover point at which Executioner is better than Mongoose.
#5059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?

You also have to consider the benefit of gear on mongoose too, using my values from Yo's sim I get 315.16 for mongoose and 302.4 for executioner.

Malan, assuming same proc rate as mongoose what would be the constant passive -armor for executioner? (useless at working that stuff out).
#5060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
If executioner have same proc rate than mongoose. Uptime is then 37%(with Yo's simulator default values)
0.37 * 840 = 310.8 passive armor penetration.
#5061SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Since armor penetration gets better the more of it you have, I don't think you can fairly consider Executioner in terms of a constant passive amount. +840 for 20s per minute would be ever so slightly better than simply +280 straight up (although to be honest, it takes a ton of AP to move my stat weights significantly in simulation).

I picked up Executioner yesterday (out of convenience -- had no enchant on my upgraded hammer, no guildy has Mongoose even though we've brought down Moroes a hojillion times but we got Executioner on the first kill). I can only say it beats the piss out of Crusader.
#5062SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.
#5063SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
I agree that the procs shouldn't be reduced to a passive benefit before comparison, but if the proc rate is the same, and the buff duration is the same, can't we directly compare the enchants? If not than my post was dumb, but if so there should be a point at which Executioner > Mongoose. The stat weights for your gear would need to be determined via simulation, but after a bit of sim runs with people picking up -armor, we should be able to come up with a general rule about when it is better.

This is my noob attempt:

Mongoose: 120agi, 2% haste (31.52 rating)
Executioner: 840 -armor

a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor

They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
#5064SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Well even using the standard EP values that makes Executioner better.
#5065SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
#5066SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
ed.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:50 PM. Reason: Double posting again (why does it do that?)
#5067SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor
Since what we really want is to solve for the minimum EP value for armor penetration that will make Exec equal Mongoose:

(4a + 1.05h) / 28 = p(equal worth)

Plugging in the T4 EP:

(4*1.74 + 1.05*1.28) / 28= p
(6.96 + 1.4144) / 28 = p
8.3744 / 28 = p
.29 = p

Lo and behold, that's higher than the T4 EP for Armor Penetration (.22). For T5, it works out to .34

Looks like I made a bad choice.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:57 PM.
#5068SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Thanks for the fixes. Apologies for the errors. I just wanted to move the Executioner vs. Mongoose debate in a more constructive direction.

Moogle mentioned, in a previous post, that off hand was the better choice for the enchant since the hit which procs the effect does not gain the benefit from that effect. This is a bit from a WWS parse:
03:44'31.400	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 654
525	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
907	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 313
947	Astromancer's Molten Armor hits Ilmatar for 75 Fire damage
03:44'32.291	Ilmatar gains Lightning Speed of NULL
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1056
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1057
306	Ilmatar gains 124 Mana from Water Shield
306	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
713	Ilmatar gains Haste of NULL
719	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
It appears that the Lightning Speed (Mongoose) proc occurs before the Windfury hit. So I am thinking that, if you want to mix enchants, it actually doesn't matter which hand has the Executioner proc, with regard to the next windfury hit. It still stands to reason that a normal melee hit will not gain the benefit.
#5069SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bargle View Post
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
Correct. Which means that the "Low End EP" numbers would list Executioner as *worse* than Mongoose. Makes sense because there is no other -Armor at that level to use. Early T5 values (Our standardized EP value) list it as pretty damn close to Mongoose. And once you're hitting T6 content the -Armor EP value in the sim hits 0.33 for almost everyone, and at that point Executioner becomes better.

[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)

Last edited by Malan : 11/20/07 at 9:07 PM.
#5070SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)
I think that the banshees are unique, because even with the magic immune shell you can still ES their curse to interrupt it. Could have been changed but on test I went out to SMV and shocked that banished demon for about 10 minutes straight without seeing a proc.
#5071SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
#5072SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
er.. yea

We took the week off of raiding for the holidays and I'm already slipping.
#5073SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I did notice that it still procs off Rank 1 shocks which is nice.
#5074SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Hm. Is there a fixed amount of AC on bosses or at least a common amount on most bosses? And does the damage reduction from AC on a boss scale like on a player?

Just wondering if a boss can have a large amount of AC, it gives a scaling damage reduction like on players and thus removing a fixed amount of armor will be very in-effective on high AC bosses, and very good on AC light bosses.
#5075SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
On the first page of this forum: [RAID] Boss armor values
#5226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gromthak
Orcs and their precious axes

I recently made the big step into Black Temple and picked up a Rising Tide. What I was wondering is if my current offhand (Netherbane) would outperform a syphon?
I tried working with Yo!'s sim but it sadly does not include expertise yet. Running the sim without including expertise put syphon ahead of netherbane by 0.5% dps.
So if anyone could help me figure out which weapon would be better would be greatly appreciated.
#5227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
@ Sebudai

Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things.
I disagree. Why isn't it comparable between different guilds? If the logs are taken correctly, WWS is a great tool for this purpose. Its useful because of its subjectiveness.

One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days?
Thanks. It just depends on the fight. We swap the raid around for each encounter, but on average I'd say we raid with 7-8 healers.

With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter.
To get the whole fight you just need multiple people logging, preferably from a variety of classes. You can also extend the logging range pretty far using addons etc. All of our logs get sent to Grimx who does the trimming, which basically involves cutting out all the pre/post-fight buffing. The logs start when the first attack of the encounter is landed, and they end when the "<Boss Name> dies." line appears in the combat log.

-----

Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P
There are very good reasons for WWS to calculate DPS in this way. The reason we care about the DPS statistic in the first place is because it helps us evaluate what kind of damage output a certain class is capable of. Due to the random elements involved in many encounters, players can lose "DPS time" for non-class specific reasons, and under your criteria their DPS would drop and the statistic would become less meaningful as far as its ability to help tell us how well a player is playing. For example, what would happen if a particular mage was Doomed 3 times on Azgalor? Under your criteria his DPS would be terrible, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing anything wrong at all.

Calculating DPS in this way allows us to get a good idea of how each class stacks up despite all of the random events going on in a lot of encounters that can just randomly affect some players much more than others. You are correct that this can be abused, but it would be fairly obvious just by looking at DPS time and other information the WWS provides for us. It's not like I have 20% DPS time and I'm popping all of my cooldowns every time I "joust" the mob. I have 90%+ DPS time in pretty much all of these parses. Many of your comments are borderline accusatory and insulting. Do you honestly think I'm intentionally attempting to abuse the way WWS calculates DPS just to inflate my numbers so I can impress some random shaman on the Elitist Jerks forums?

So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.
This is not true at all. The way WWS calculates DPS is just as likely to affect mine in a negative way as it is to inflate it. What happens when I pop Bloodlust on Archimonde only to have half of my group Air Bursted with my Flame Shock ticking away?
#5228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.

b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.

Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.
So what? I said I wanted to know how much the benefit of AP has increased because of the new Mental Quickness? This question in the beginning has nothing to do with the fact, that we use AP as a fixed-value in the EP system. We could also use crit instead. But because we use AP this way, I calculated how much I have to reduce the other values to take account for this change. This should be a valueable information for other shamans, that are still using the EP values from Yo's sim without MQ, because of the instability with the MQ option activated. So why the flame?
#5229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
I am asking again, for the people who are playing enhancement shaman in raids and are using few elemental talents instead of the typical restoration ones..

isn't the loss of 3% spell hit from nature's guidance affecting your shock total damage? Don't you have lots of resists, or maybe even partials?


PS Any way to add the damage from your totems (searing, magma and nova totems, well fire /earth elemental's too) to your damage meter?
#5230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
#5231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.

All factored in a 10 second Frame :

2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD

2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD

Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD

Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.

Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)

Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.

You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.

So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.

Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.
#5232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Don´t forget that you "have" to drop Firenova on CD and Searing after that, which is not on a 10 sec timer, so it will throw you off anyway. Besides waiting for you WF cooldown pre SS is going to do way more damage anyway ^^ ...
#5233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Didn't include them seeing that you will be dropping them once every 2 mins.
#5234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Scribbles
Originally Posted by Malan
VIII.3 Itemization – Haste
Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS. Prior to patch 2.2 Haste Rating became the superior stat, but the 2.3 patch reduced its EP value closer to that of Hit Rating.

Modeling indicated weapons hasted between 1.51 and 1.41 speed will actually experience a sharp decrease in potential Windfury DPS. The range of 1.51- 1.41 speed was believed to cause the main hand to always finish a swing just before the end of a WF cooldown, making you wait longer for the next eligible swing that can proc WF. If hasted in this period for a long duration, you could expect WF DPS contribution to decrease. However, you'll also experience many more white swings during that time, and so the loss of potential WF procs should be offset by the increased white DPS. It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.

I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available? I tried using the search function, but after several pages couldn't seem to find much for it.

Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)

As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.

Last edited by Scribbles : 11/25/07 at 6:59 AM. Reason: Post Clarity
#5235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Scribbles View Post
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.

I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available?

Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)

As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.

However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.

Haste and armor penetration are things that get progressively good as you stack them. However, with the items available in the game right now, I do not think it is feasible to completely stack haste/Ar.P at the cost of other stats and come out with better stats.
#5236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Scribbles
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.

However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?

Edit:: Just seen the last paragraph. Thanks for the quick response.

Last edited by Scribbles : 11/25/07 at 7:30 AM.
#5237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.

Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?

Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.

If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.
#5238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Hi all. I play as Fury DPS Warrior in raids, and I know how important a shaman really is for us, not only for pure DPS purposes but also for smoother rage generation. Now, I've been used in earlier SSC/TK raids with previous guilds to have an Enhancement Shaman almost always in party and that helped me stand on par and even ahead better geared DPSers, even rogues on certain encounters; I know that an Enhancement Shaman can boost a Fury Warrior by about 220DPS with everything talented, and this is just amazing, I literally fly in damage but most importantly in the fun-factor when I have one in my group.

However, I decided to migrate on another server and now I find myself in a guild which attempts to attune the very last people before entering the Mount Hyjal/Black Temple's journey. Unfortunately they have no Enhancement Shaman, and they didn't even have a Fury Warrior before me; they just used to ran with 3 rogues and such. I already had a chat with the GM trying to talk with him of the importance of shamans in raid(Self-resurrection, Heroism, and in our case invaluable party buffs), but in order to really persuade him I'm in need of some raw data comparison.
How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.

Thanks in advance.
#5239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yo!
Originally Posted by Scribbles View Post
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?
Read more about EP system from first post. All stats are assigned the value based on your total current stats so you can compare gear.

a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.
Those "secondary" stats (EP to % of dps increase, etc.) depend on your current stats just like EP values of stats, It is interesting to know indeed and I plan adding "dps gain per EP" line to the sim. Thank you for the idea.

How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.
You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.

Last edited by Yo! : 11/25/07 at 7:59 AM.
#5240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.

All factored in a 10 second Frame :

2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD

2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD

Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD

Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.

Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)

Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.

You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.

So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.

Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.

But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.

For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.

The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
#5241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight..
I would like to see your wws with totem twisting and shocking as you claim.
#5242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post



You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.

Any other can provide some numbers?
#5243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by Mano View Post
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.

Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?

Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.

If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.

Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.

Last edited by Mox : 11/25/07 at 9:30 AM.
#5244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
#5245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
This was what I was thinking too, all the totems that have a visible buff icon can be tracked and shown.
#5246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yo!
Originally Posted by Danath View Post
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3

EDIT:
Sebudai was replaced by caster-shaman for totems so the group still gained WF totem (but not improved), Str (not improved), no AGI (from totem twist) and no UR. Also the war woulld be more affected by shaman's change if DW.

Last edited by Yo! : 11/25/07 at 12:24 PM.
#5247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Stupid internet connection went down...
#5248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.

Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).

Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.

Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
#5249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3
Fact is that Warrior is 2h Arms, and Arms get the lesser benefit now. Fury Warriors gain far and ahead the most benefit out of shamans right now. Also I believe that other boss fights would better show how much of a consistent gain an enhancement shaman can be for melee group, am I correct?
#5250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mkael
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
This was already brought up before that post in http://elitistjerks.com/552989-post4997.html, same maths and all so nothing new. Even comments from Disq about it...

I would also assume a lot of peeps will switch when 2.4 hits due to better logging...

/Mkael
#5251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
ok, thanks. I'll try it out.
#5252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Revdarian
It must do a buff check, the totems it doesn�t display are those that do not put a buff over the player but instead pulse an effect, like for example Poison Cleansing, Disease Cleansing, Tremor Totem, etc.
#5253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.

Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).

Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.

Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
#5254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
This is kind of a 'duh' post but there are too many wws comparing posts and I think I is important for people to consider these ideas when looking at wws parses.

1) You cannot just click random wws reports and compare their shaman numbers with your own. You must also compare total raid dps on their side with your own raid dps. Assume a 4M HP boss. If their raid has 16000 dps and yours has 12000 dps that means their fight was done in 250 seconds and yours in 333. So they were bloodlusted for 16% of their raid and you were bloodlusted for 12% of yours. Your guildmates can have a profound on your dps and it needs to be taken into consideration when analyzing wws parses.

2) Also please remember that there is large variance for enhance dps. Load up Yo's sim and put in all default values and a simulation time of 1 hour. After clicking simulate 10-15 times I had a minimum result of 901 and a maximum result of 951. This is after one hour of simulation meaning this data should be far tighter than anything we would see against a boss. DPS swings in the 5-10% range are to be expected, do not get worried about them.
#5255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
#5256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
It hasn't been updated in over 30 days according to the version I have installed on my local machine. The problem w/ chaman is that it is actually named something else: "TotemManager" (on Curse<-- that is a link btw, because I can never see them on the EJ forums), the folder is just named chaman.
#5257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
#5258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
Chaman2

Edit: Too slow
#5259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Totemus can also be set to track how many of your party members are in range of your totems. I can't remember the name of the option, but it's the third setting on the slider at the bottom of the timer configuration window. Doesn't track windfury or pulse totems but it does track SoE/GoA/healing stream/mana spring.
#5260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
Which is why I didnt see it :P
#5261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.

For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.

The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
#5262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
#5263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Garlik View Post
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
I think this thread is pretty much dedicated to PvE, but I'll answer anyway.

Without throwing around any numbers:

Assume Mongoose and Executioner are very close to equal in terms of plain vannilla dps increase.
Mongoose increases DPS through crit, which is mitigated by resiliance (crits do less bonus damage).
PvP gear now has passive armor pen, Amor Pen is better when you've got more of it.

Executioner doesn't increase your dodge though. Dodging helps you defensivly against warriors(somewhat) and rogues when they can't get behind you.

I'm going to assume that Mongoose/executioner is your better pvp option for most cases.
#5264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Dodge helps against rogues while you are not stunned, only exception being with 41 combat talent finishers cant be dodged i think?
#5265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:

EP calculation unstability when using 30% ap to spell damage talent option
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
#5266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bdatik
Originally Posted by justinr View Post
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:

Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
#5267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by justinr View Post
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:



So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
#5268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Bdatik View Post
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:
Ah thanks.

To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
I was doing my comparisons on some badge gear to replace some old items for things I haven't been able to get the best items for yet. Just something to keep me busy outside raiding. :P (like leather badge pants vs T5 that I haven't gotten bow stiched to replace yet)
#5269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Danath View Post
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
I meant that having an enhancement shaman in the group with the rogues seemed to provide about 100 dps extra than having a non-enhance shaman (but still a shaman!) in that group. This comes partially from UR, partially from higher WF access uptime and enhanced melee totems.
#5270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0JulianMaiev
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
#5271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Psibeast
Having reached 4 piece T5 and the awsome set bonus that comes with it I was looking forward to what T6 has to offer and it seems very bad compared to the T5 set bonuses. Each piece by itself is an improvement as stats go, but the set bonuses are much worse.

I wanted to ask other shaman who are doing MH/BT and had 4 pc. T5 bonus, did you go for T6, or did you stick with 4 pieces of T5 to keep the bonus and just upgraded other slots? Is it worth losing the set bonus for the extra stats on the T6 gear?

Thanks
#5272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by JulianMaiev View Post
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
There was significant discussion of this very topic within the last 10 pages or so.
#5273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Abakus
Originally Posted by Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
It depends on which bracket you are playing.

But for most matchups, i would recommend exec/mongoose, as crits result in many beneficial effects on most classes. More to purge means you might miss that one important BoP/BoF.

As S3-Gear has some armor pen on it to stack with exec, imho just go exec/mogoose
#5274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
Don't forget the mana gains of Shamanistic Rage!

But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
#5275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by panny View Post
But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
#5276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
refused
Gladiator Fist Weapons

I spent this weekend accruing honor points to get some decent weapons and a shield. I was reading through this post and I tried reading though some of these follow up posts but over a hundred is kind of hard ;) , so I apologize if these issues have been discussed already.

All I saw discussed was using the Gladiator maces/axes set for duel weilders. My question is why not get the Fist set? Is it better to have the consistant range of a higher base hit and lower top end damage weapon like the maces/axe set or would one want to get the fist set with a lower base range and higher top end damage to hopefully get bigger number hits/crits? They are both the same speed so with WF on them it wouldn't be a difference in that respect. This would be in regards to BOTH PvP and PvE.

In PvP I didn't see anything said about using a sheild against warriors/rogues/hunters/pallies - stun classes (in general there was no mention of what sheild to grab in the list of items for us). I always thought that should be a rule of thumb but am I wrong here? (I should mention that 1/2 my gear is rogue epic Kara gear at the moment until I get better mail gear). I'm having a very hard time with those classes at the moment and I can only win if they have sub-par weapons/gear.

Some thoughts about these two questions would be great. Thanks in advance!

Last edited by refused : 11/27/07 at 11:15 AM.
#5277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by refused View Post
I spent this weekend accruing honor points to get some decent weapons and a shield. I was reading through this post and I tried reading thru some of these follow up posts but over a hundred is kind of hard so I apologize if these issues have been discussed already.

All I saw discussed was the Gladiator maces/axes set for duel weilders and my question is why not get the Fist set? Is it better to have the consistant range of a higher base hit and lower top end damage weapon like the maces/axe set or would one want to get the fist set with a lower base range and higher top end damage to possibly get bigger number hits/crits? They are both the same speed so with WF on them it wouldn't be a difference in that respect. This would be in regards to BOTH PvP and PvE.

In PvPA I didn't see anything said about using a sheild against warriors/rogues/pallies. I always thought that should be a rule of thumb but am I wrong here? (I must mention that 1/2 my gear is rogue epic Kara gear at the moment until I get better mail gear). I'm having a very hard time with those classes at the moment and I can only win if they are undergeared than me it seems. Some thoughts about these two questions would be great. Thanks in advance!
The main reason that people did not go fist is because it was MH only. Alot of us prefered to get One hand weps so that if we upgraded our MH wep, we could use the old one in the OH. As for the range difference, it really dosnet matter. Your just as likely to have someone live because you hit with the low end, as killing them with the high end. Its all preference on the look of the wep, or racial skills.

As for the shield, you should be swapping to the shield as soon as you are focused by a hunter/war/rogues. Even with SR up you often need the defense you give, especially when your going to be stunned for 1/2 the fight anyway so it wouldnt matter if you had a OH out.
#5278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
refused
Originally Posted by Tsalrioth View Post
The main reason that people did not go fist is because it was MH only.

In the test server I saw it was MH and OH just like the maces/axes set so I'm confused here - did it get changed?

Also, would someone mind linking to a page that posts best talent sets to be used in PvP and PvE? (Curious if my instincts are right in what I currently use) Thanks!!!

Last edited by refused : 11/27/07 at 11:32 AM.
#5279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
berg
Originally Posted by refused View Post
In the test server I saw it was MH and OH just like the maces/axes set so I'm confused here - did it get changed?

Also, would someone mind linking to a page that posts best talent sets to be used in PvP and PvE? (Curious if my instincts are right in what I currently use) Thanks!!!
The right ripper is main hand only. There are 2 left rippers with slightly different names. One is fast and one is 2.6 speed.

So the claws are a pretty legitimate option now. This is not like season 2 where there were superior weapons like rising tide and syphon right around the corner. I would not worry about replacing these weapons any time soon as sunwell is still 2-3 months away.

Last edited by berg : 11/27/07 at 1:14 PM.
#5280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brum
Mental Quickness quirk

Discovered this before 2.3 so it may be fixed now. Fixed or not, it's not hugely important, and probably not even front page worthy. But for the sake of completeness:


Mental Quickness works as you'd expect it to on non-totem instants
Spell cost = untalented cost * (1-.02*points in mental quickness)

Name - Untalented cost => 3/3 MQ cost
wf weap - 190 => 178
es - 535 => 502
fs - 500 => 470
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Totemic Focus works as you'd expect, when you have 0 points in MQ:
Totem cost = untalented cost * (1-.05*points in TF

With 1+ points in MQ you use this equation:
Totem cost = untalented cost*(1-.05*points in totemic focus)*(1-(.02*points in mental quickness/(1-.05*points in totemic focus)))

With full MQ and TM, equation simplifies to:
Totem cost = untalented cost*.75*.92 = untalented cost*.69

Why two equations? If you have TF and any points in MQ, the effect of TF magnifies the effect of MQ. If you have 5/5 TF and 3/3 MQ you get .06/.75 = 8% off totems from MQ, instead of the expected 6%. In addition to the 25% from TF, for a total of 31%, when you'd expect 1-(.75*.94) = 29.5% off. This bug works out to be a whole extra 1.5% off totem costs in our favor! Woo. Equation derived from:

Name - Untalented cost => 5/5 TF cost => 5/5 TF + 3/3 MQ cost
goa - 310 => 232 => 213
soe - 300 => 225 => 207
wf - 325 => 243 => 224
fire elem - 680 => 510 => 469
#5281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsaeb
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
I did the same last night, except I maintained it for the entire fight. Nearly full shock rotation, slowed once or twice because of threat. The only time I used SR was when my health dropped and HS/Pot were on cooldown. Don't recall using a mana pot at all.
#5282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Tsaeb View Post
I did the same last night, except I maintained it for the entire fight. Nearly full shock rotation, slowed once or twice because of threat. The only time I used SR was when my health dropped and HS/Pot were on cooldown. Don't recall using a mana pot at all.

You should SR near the end when damage / healing gets tough, to help your healers out.
#5283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Rapparee
Garlik: (your question was pvp related, not enhance shaman theorycraft, but not the thread's dumbest question)
The first post points out that this isn't the greatest location for enhance shaman in pvp. There's too many different situations in PvP, grounding totem is the most awesome totem ever when you've got it out just as some AP+PoM+Pyroblast is flying at you. However, against akama... it's not a good totem.

With all that said, I'm saving some gear for arenas... I'll put 20agi on my weapons.... far too often I get to take only 4 swings at someone before they're dead or i'm completely CC'd. Mongoose enchant would do nearly nothing for me as it'd proc and i'm be in my 2nd cyclone wasing most of it's uptime, by the time I get out of that cyclone and catch up to the guy, mongoose proc is gone. That's my personal experience in arenas, others have different experiences where they are convinced that mongoose will allow them to kill their opponents faster and they're probably right about themselves. But that's not my experience, I'm taking the guaranteed increase to my ability to crit that comes from having 40more agility all the time. If there was a resilience or stam weapon enchant, I'd think about them.


Mano: (your question was playstyle related, not exactly on topic, but a good independent question)
I use Chaman2 and GRID. Both of these tell me who has totems on them.
Chaman2 as others have said, by default shows the number of people in your party benefiting from a totem buff. If the totem does not provide a buff icon, it doesn't help.

GRID you have to do some setup of your own and add in the names of the totem buffs. I did this and applied them to the corner icons of GRID. I made each corner a specific color and specific totem type... so earth totems are all brown color and in the lower right corner.... i hope i remembered that location correctly.

I heal a lot... mainly on trash fights. Having GRID out, i can count how many healers are dead. So in Hyjal if one of the tanks is sucking ass and letting a ghoul slaughter healers, I'll know it before it gets out on vent. I'll also know if 3 healers are dead, and the rest are out of range of us melee... I start chain-healing the melee, or healing waves on the feral.... So GRID offers a lot more awareness for me on trash than chaman2.
On a boss fight if 3 healers are dead and the boss isn't at 1 or 2%, it won't end pretty regardless of whether I heal or not. However, several times on archimonde, one clump gets airbursted, while the other two clumps are cut off by doomfires and myself + the melee decursing druid are the only ones healing the tank for upwards of 8 seconds. If I didn't have GRID showing the tank not getting healed, I'd have no clue to spam HWs on him. (p.s. we use the 3clumps method for ranged)

Psibeast: (your question was item related, you could have done the math yourself. You chose the lazy route, so I answered in a way that avoids much of the theorycrafting done in this thread to keep in practice with your avoidance of the theorycrafting. Your question wasn't dumb, just kind of lazy and dependent on factors that we can't theorycraft, such as whether your guild would allow you to bid on leather items at all)
The cataclysm tier5 4piece bonus is awesome. When should you change to the tier6 4piece bonus or should you get the non-set items?
To be honest I thought you could use Yo's sim to get a definitive answer to this question without needing our help. But I might be wrong and the sim isn't accurate enough anymore or possibly you don't have confidence in it. So now you have to have confidence in me....
Having 4 pieces of tier 6 is an obvious upgrade to keeping the tier 5 items that they'd replace. However, that's gonna take a hell of a lot of clearing. And at this point it's also extremely dependent on you getting to Illidan before the expansion. You can't get 4pieces of tier6 until you're actually doing attempts on Illidan. If you just got to BT/Hy, there is actually a chance that you'll not beat him before the expansion. I'm not trying to deride you, just saying that you're kind of on the hairy edge. So you'll have to factor that in as welll. It might be time to adopt the WDF (whatever drops first) philosophy in gearing. If a piece of gear drops that beats out the tier5 item in that slot, bid on it. If your guild is very cut-throat on DKP, hoard yours until a week comes when you are killing enough bosses that you could replace 2 or 3 of your tier5 items, then you bid like crazy on any item that is a reasonable replacement. Cross your fingers that you get to replace 2 or 3 tier 5 items in a one or two week period and you'll happily have beaten out the 4piece bonus.

This is how I had to determine what gear I bid on:
We have 4 rogues who can raid (only 3 come to a raid at a time). And Archimonde has still not dropped the midnight chestguard. With 4 rogues, the non-set leather items are in fierce competition. So Rapparee will likely never win the midnight chestguard and would spend massive dkp for other leather items. Rapp's 2nd choice for chests is the skyshatter, which is essentially guaranteed to drop from Illidan. Once I realized that this was my fate, I re-did my math on what the 4piece bonus of 70AP meant in regards to tier6 set beating out non-set items. The skyshatter legs, for me, are beaten out by the Bow-Stitched leggings. The other 3 pieces, when I factor in 1/4 of 70AP for each win as best-in-slot. So it's a no brainer for me at this point. I'm replacing my tier5 with bow-stitched leggings and the rest as my tier6 set. As soon as I had 2 pieces of skyshatter, the upgrade in stats was enough for me to break the tier5 4piece bonus.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/27/07 at 8:48 PM. Reason: added a response to Psibeast
#5284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
gladiator fists or maces/axes people, i want to get my weapons!! there didn't seem to be a straight response really. lol
#5285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Rapparee
Originally Posted by refused View Post
gladiator fists or maces/axes people, i want to get my weapons!! there didn't seem to be a straight response really. lol
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway:
HIGHEST DAMAGE: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]
2nd highest damage: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]
3rd highest : [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
the chopper only has a max damage of 349, which is why wielding two cleavers does more damage.
4th highest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Left Ripper]
sorry but it looks like fist weapons are in last place according to my rankings.

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/27/07 at 8:40 PM.
#5286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway: [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.

wow.... i see how this site got it's name. this is my first time posting here with my initial questions and for one say this is the stupidest possible question, is ... well, i think i'll be classy and not finish that statement. i'm just a woman playing the game for fun and not half as serious as a lot of people here when it comes to getting into the math of things because to be honest - i'm a creative right brained woman and although i have a college degree and always kicked ass in school, i still hate hate hate hate math. lol. i like how the initial poster broke things down for everyone to understand - even those like me who take the way-side when getting into the semantics of mechanic breakdown.

my emoticon was not mitigating and i was not "yelling" - i'm simply excited to get my weapons and the question wasn't fully answered. it was a fully lighthearted request that i followed with the emoticon to be sure no one took it any other way. imo, taking it any other way IS clearly stupid.

now that is out of the way -- in this formula you used, you said if i ran all three choices the maces would come out to provide the most damage. why run the axes AND maces. they are the same weapon, just different look. are you by any chance talking about different items? i expect you won't answer because my follow up question is just as "stupid," but i'll throw it out there anyways.

-a non-elitist jerk.



apparently you edited your post while i was making mine. so they are the same weapons, but still you have the same stated maces and axes as different rankings which i don't understand. call me stupid.
#5287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway:
HIGHEST DAMAGE: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]
2nd highest damage: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]
3rd highest : [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
the chopper only has a max damage of 349, which is why wielding two cleavers does more damage.
4th highest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Left Ripper]
sorry but it looks like fist weapons are in last place according to my rankings.

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.
Either I'm stoned or you are. All of the weapons have the same damage range, dps, hit rating, crit rating, attack power, speed, and armor ignore.
#5288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
actually they are different weapons. the ones i was talking about are the ones available for honor today. the fists have a higher top end and lower base then the maces/axes (both the same weapon stats but have a higher base and lower top end damage stat).
#5289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
Originally Posted by refused View Post
they are the same weapon, just different look.
You quoted my response which indicated that the weapons are identical.
The weapons are very similar, but there is a key difference in game mechanics:
the mace is one hand.
One axe is one hand
One axe is off hand
One fist is main hand
One fist is off hand

Your question can be stated as follows:
Should I buy a clue with a $5 bill, five $1 bills, or 20 quarters?

The obvious answer is to buy the clue with the $5 bill. Sure it's identical in value to the other two choices, but it's easier to carry in my right hand or left hand and I like the looks of it.
#5290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Visionnaire
I like the quarters for doing my laundry, though.

So, I pick the 20 quarters.
#5291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Rapparee, for orc shaman axe beats others by a mile. Also, wowhead links for all do show all stats equal which would kinda hint for all other races it is personal preference. You do not need 2 one-hand weapon for freedom of choice really, so One-Hand + Off-Hand is economic way to go (2.6 speed OH).

By your example lets say you got to do 2 jobs. You got the joice of 2 tools for it -- one that is suitable for both jobs and other that is only suitable for second job. However that latter one is also considerably cheaper. Do you buy two tools suitable for both jobs or one of each tools?
#5292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
Judgement of Wisdom is huge. On PTR I ran ZA with a ret paladin who was keeping up JoW on everything, and I was able to keep up a full WF/GoA twist on the bear boss while shocking every 5 seconds. No interruptions, just SS-shock-WF-GoA-shock the whole fight. That's as 16/45/0, with no Totemic Focus, no Convection, no 2pc T6.

On live our guild doesn't use JoW much, and even as enh/resto I can barely manage WF/TA plus flame shock.

I'd imagine that's why half the people in this thread say totem twisting is unsustainable, and the other half say it's easy and everyone should do it. An enh shaman with JoW has almost twice as much mana to work with as one without.
#5293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Tana Umaga
Well anyway there´s still the possibility of wearing 2 onehand axes, and someone said there is actually a 2.6 off-fist, so i see no point in wearing the faster one...

For me, i got to say i hate arenas soooo much that i am happy with my Fury. Now heading on to get Rage xD

edit:Well actually i see your 2nd damage option was 2x VG cleaver, second to 2x pummeler. As i said I hate arenas, so i better keep my trap shout xD

Last edited by Tana Umaga : 11/28/07 at 6:03 AM. Reason: review
#5294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Ok this is curious - I was doing a speed KZ clear last night for badges and [Grips of Deftness] dropped. I grabbed them just to take a look later and see if they worth using because of the expertise. My guild leader was in the raid and linked [Gloves of the Searing Grip] which on the live servers had the exact same stats (which basically made the Grips of Deftness a hell of a lot better) but you'll notice that the tooltips on wowhead show them as different. Can someone else check on that in-game?

[e] nevermind, see below.

Last edited by Malan : 11/28/07 at 11:40 AM.
#5295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Tristan
@Malan
Here's what they look like on wowarmory, I'd expect it to be accurate to in-game.

Grips of Deftness 
Binds when picked up
Hand
228 Armor
+29 Agility
+34 Stamina
Durability: 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 15
Equip: Increases attack power by 60.
Gloves of the Searing Grip 
Binds when picked up
Hand
252 Armor
+33 Agility
+37 Stamina
Durability: 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 18
Equip: Increases attack power by 66.

Last edited by Tristan : 11/28/07 at 11:32 AM.
#5296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
[e] Ok it seems maybe I had some bugged out tooltips or something, the druid in my raid said they weren't the same stats when he saw them.

Last edited by Malan : 11/28/07 at 11:40 AM.
#5297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Try nuking your itemcache.
Attached Images
File Type: png deftness.png (122.1 KB, 22 views)
#5298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Surprisingly though the Grips of Deftness have very nice EP now, they're definitely worth picking up over the T4 gloves for anyone in that content, and they'd probably last you all the way into Hyjal. They're only like 25-30 EP short of my Hyjal gloves.
#5299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grundar
Hi 2nd post here.

At the risk of being called stupid or lazy I will say that maybe some of us that don't do math much are not stupid or lazy. Many of us are not computer confident. Any time we download we are scared of a virus or something going wrong. I have had a virus and I had to have my hard drive reformated. Not a good time, something I really want to avoid. We just don't do that much with computers in RL. We turn them on and hope they work. Messing with them like some people did with cars is not our thing. That does not mean we don't apprecaite those of you that do. We do. I have read each and every page on this thread. The work here staggers me. It has helped me more than I would have believed.

That said there is a LOT of contradictory information on weapons on this thread. Basic to enhance shaman is "slow is good" and many posts on triggering windfury with the OH and getting less damage. Posts on how slower harder hitting weapons are better but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.

Is it possible blizzard, along with a WF cooldown bumped the % up for the next swing to keep the rate consistent? I dont know.

I do know that to get the inital arena weapons for honor is huge for many of us. Huge.

But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
#5300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0McGrady
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
You quoted my response which indicated that the weapons are identical.
The weapons are very similar, but there is a key difference in game mechanics:
the mace is one hand.
One axe is one hand
One axe is off hand
One fist is main hand
One fist is off hand

Your question can be stated as follows:
Should I buy a clue with a $5 bill, five $1 bills, or 20 quarters?

The obvious answer is to buy the clue with the $5 bill. Sure it's identical in value to the other two choices, but it's easier to carry in my right hand or left hand and I like the looks of it.
You still don't make any sense, I don't see how axes or maces or even the offhand axe are any different from each other. Unless you are an Orc, the maces and axes (+offhand) are identical in everything except one-hand/off-hand. I don't see why anyone should be paying another 1.5k honor to get a one-hand axe that is identical to the off-hand for their 2nd weapon.
#5401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That post is also just referring to the Enhance addon/model, so yah, not too helpful I'm afraid. What I'm trying to figure out is when 3 normal sockets beats 1 socket + Meta. I'm trying to figure out if some of the new ZA/Badge helms are worth taking over my T4 helm and not having much success in deciding.

My hunch would be no.

On my latest hyjal attempt crits made up 36% of my total dps.
meaning the 3% bonus crit damage made up 1.05% of my total dps, on top of which I'm getting 12 agil also out of the meta socket.
at my aep values 12 agil ~= 10 str
and 1.05% of my total dps on that fight was about 10dps
so the 1.05% of your total dps would have to be less than whatever you were putting in that third socket for the 3 socket to beat out the 1+meta.

However, you also have to take into account the difference between the ep of the two helms.

So, assuming you're socketing BT/MH gems, the 3s ep - meta ep > 1.05% of your totaldps - 10str

It should also be noted that I have about 30% unbuffed crit chance, and I've been stacking it every since I picked up the prism of inner calm. For example I've been using greater agility over 120ap flasks; while I lose some dps, the tps lost is even larger.

edit: changed aep to ep to compile with the latest convention

Last edited by tzenes : 12/04/07 at 1:32 AM.
#5402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
#5403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
using 3.70 ep for the off hand (which is not accurate for Syphon)

Syphon has 370.74 ep
and
Rising Tide has 370.74 + 73.4 ep

Now the Syphon ep for off hand should actually be greater than 3.7
To be better than Rising Tide it would have to be 4.43 ep about a 20% increase.

Now I don't know what the ep is for a 2.8 speed off hand, but I would assume that it is less than 20% off of a 2.6 speed
#5404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
Originally Posted by rava View Post
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
Ugh, it's retarded that PVP weapons end up being the best weapons for PVE. Oh well...

I tried the search thing twice and couldn't find what I was looking for, probably just search-dumb.
#5405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0urotas
Originally Posted by Foxx2405 View Post
Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions
I'd like to ask a few more things about the windfury vs grace of air in extreme group setups

In the example, we had a shaman, druid, warrior, BM hunter, BM hunter group and the question was whether it would be more beneficial to use grace of air or windfury. This was an odd raid setup with no rogues, and personally I'd rather put a hunter in a melee group, than a mage/warlock who'd be losing wrath of air and a shadow priest. Would I be correct to assume, that the old "if there's a warrior in the group, drop windfury" would be more accurate as "Drop windfury, if there's a warrior in the group and at least one other benefiting from it"? Or would windfury still generate more dps for the whole group in this situation too? I'm also interested in knowing what would be the correct totem to use for maximum raid dps in some of the more borderline situations. For example:

Shaman, sword rogue, sword rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, sword rogue, dagger rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, retri-paladin, rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter

Could anyone point me to any threads with some more detailed theorycrafting on the benefits of windfury and grace of air to different classes? I know grace of air adds 121 attack power and 4% crit to me as a feral druid, which according to the ToskksDPSGearMethod calculator would increase my theoretical dps by a bit over 50. However, I don't know how accurate this is, and I have nothing to compare it with.

A rogue or a hunter would gain 107 attack power and something like 2.4% critical chance from an enhancement shamans grace of air if I calculated it correctly. How big of a damage increase would this be compared to windfury on a rogue/warrior for example? I would appreciate if you could point me to the correct information source.
#5406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Rob
Without a doubt, drop Windfury if 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues > Feral Druids + Hunters.
Without a doubt, drop GoA if Feral Druids + Hunters > 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues.

This leaves the theoretical borderline case where the sides of the equation are equivalent: e.g. {rogue, rogue, hunter, hunter, enhancement shaman} or even the {warrior, feral, hunter, enhancement shaman, caster/healer} that might occur in a 10 man group. Either way, there frankly is no 100% definitive answer for this situation: it will depend on how well-geared and well-played the various classes are; and if the Warrior in your group is tanking, whether or not he would benefit more from threat/rage generation or avoidance.

Last edited by Rob : 12/04/07 at 5:56 AM.
#5407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Vulajin's math on WF vs GoA + Instant Poison for a combat sword rogue: Windfury Totem Change

His math shows about 60 DPS from GoA + IP, 80 from WF.

for me, I got about 35 DPS out of GoA last time I checked. That was in T5 gear but I think Vulajin's calculations are for an approximately T5-geared rogue.

A druid friend of mine ran the numbers through some druid spreadsheet or other and got 45 DPS in T5-ish gear for GoA.

I'd expect a T5 ret paladin to gain 150-200 DPS from WF. Not only does it straight-up give them 20% more white swings, but as I recall the extra swings give them 20% more judgement procs. I'd assume they'd gain about the same as enh shamans from GoA.

I've never seen real data on hunters, mut rogues, or warriors.

The problem is warriors. A warrior's DPS gain from WF is going to be hard to calculate because of rage generation, and I've never seen any reliable math on it. If I remember right though, GoA clocks in at under 30 DPS for a T5-geared warrior.
#5408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Jerem
Using Cheeky's excellent spreadsheet, on a 7700 AC level 73 Boss (I selected Morogrim, because this is usually the fight for which my WWS parses are the closest to my spreadsheet-simulated DPS) :

With standard raid (damage) buffs (BoK, imp. BoM, LotP, GotW, Scroll of AGI, AGI food, flask of relentless assault) for me, and for my cat pet (obviously, same buffs, minus the flask, and agi food replaced by STR food), my simulated DPS is :
Hunter : 1043.23
Pet : 475.8
= 1519.03
[my stats, with this setup, are 2307 AP, 34.63% crit, 100% hit]

If I add an improved GoA Totem and an improved SoE totem (benefits the pet's PA), the simulated DPS becomes :
Hunter : 1088.07
Pet : 541.04
= 1629.11
[my stats then are 2404 AP, 37.05% crit, 100% hit]

This is with a never-wearing-off hunter's mark, 5 Sunders and a Faerie Fire on the boss (I didn't factor in CoR).

The 1500 DPS number might be a little "over the top". I think the best I ever did on Morogrim (that means never being bubbled, and being extra lucky on crits, etc) was around 1200 (I probably forgot some obvious stuff in the spreadsheet's settings, but can't seem to find what).
I have a T5 (or equivalent) gear, and I'm BM-specced (41/20/00). I use a standard auto-steady rotation, and replace Steady Shot by Arcane- or Multi-shot whenever they're up (I consider mana a non-issue : our Paladins maintain JoW, and I use mana pots every cooldowns). I use trinkets, Bestial Wrath and Rapid Fire whenever they are up, as well as drums (Battle/War).

To fully evaluate the benefits of GoA for a BM hunter, you would have to consider that more AGI for the pet means more
crits, hence more FI uptime (I think my FI uptime is about 96 or 97% currently). That contributes to the added value of GoA for the group's DPS.

Hope it helps ...

Last edited by Jerem : 12/04/07 at 8:49 AM.
#5409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
[e] Wow I somehow missed all the posts between this and the one I replied to, this was at the guy asking about all the weapon combos.

I think you missed the other part of the OP where it says that RisingTide/Syphon is almost exactly identical to Syphon/RisingTide, and same for any other weapon combo. Its really not a big deal which hand you put which T6 weapon in.

Last edited by Malan : 12/04/07 at 1:27 PM.
#5410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Goldthorn
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.

Last edited by Goldthorn : 12/06/07 at 10:30 AM.
#5411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Teran
Originally Posted by Goldthorn View Post
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money lol! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
#5412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yuma
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
To determine my weighting for the meta socket, I always assume that I'm going to socket a RED, and then take the value of my Yo! simulated APEP for agility adding 20 for the increased crit effect, which is what I believe the rogues chose as a value on another thread on these forums.

Last edited by Yuma : 12/04/07 at 2:30 PM.
#5413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
http://elitistjerks.com/566730-post300.html
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
#5414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Teran View Post
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
I would have to find it again, but I believe there was a post about the Tier 4 blacksmithing plans being available from The Sunwell. Don't take this for gospel truth, but it seems somewhat likely as the weapons available to us in Black Temple and through Season 3 make the money and time invested in our Blacksmith creations worthless. If I can find the post again I will link it.
#5415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Like I've said, I repeatedly get 40%+ uptime with a single executioner enchant. 75% doesn't seem unreasonable at all with two of them.
#5416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
@ Tornhoof:

I downloaded the latest version of your simulator today, and I also managed to get my hands on the Berzerkers Call from ZA. I was using DST and TT, but now I'm using DST and BC. According to the main article, BC is worth about 10 more EP than TT. However, with BC and DST equipped, your simulator is showing me LOSING 20 DPS. Is there an error with your calculation, or is the loss of hit and crit really affecting me that much? (I only have 13.75% hit, 1600 ap and 28% crit now). Just thought I'd check.

Also, is your simulator taking into account armor penetration? I'm up to 420 passive + executioner enchant now.
#5417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

And I believe it was 310 static armor penetration for executioner, something like that anyways, it was posted a few pages back.
#5418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
#5419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Difforgazm
Sorry if this is already known but a new site is working on building an Enhancement item database type thing.

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

just thought id point this out, as it seems like a fairly easy to use good site.
#5420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
No Flurry bug fix in 2.3.2:
Originally Posted by Blue Poster in Warrior boards
* The off-hand Whirlwind attack does not proc flurry when it crits.
* If you have one charge of flurry remaining and crit with that attack, flurry does not proc/refresh
Both bugs will be fixed in a patch after 2.3.2
#5421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I added a small section at the bottom of the post for raid leaders. Just some basic info on how to examine WWS and the Armory to decide if an Enhance shaman is up to snuff.
#5422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
I did some math on it and found it to be worth ~313 armor penetration, assuming 36% uptime on the buff. I'll link the spreadsheet if I can find it later.
#5423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Original data on value of Str/AP vs. Agi/CR?

I have carefully read the entire OP, and the first 20 pages following. I do not think there are enough hours left in my life to read the entire thread. However, what I'm wondering seems to have been assumed (or demonstrated) before the first post. If anyone can point me to a good discussion of this I'd appreciate it.

My question is about the initial assumption that Str = 2EP, while Agi is = 1.8EP (give or take, and ignoring Kings). Here's a first cut at comparing the two.

Assume I do N% non-crit and C% crit hits. My total dps would be on average D * (N+2C), for some D (right?). WF, flurry, UR, and item procs will mean that D has multiple possible values during a fight, but overall it should average out to some number that is the same for crits and noncrits. (Maybe not entirely, due to +AP procs on crits, but I think it's very close anyway.) Since additional crits mean fewer noncrits, increasing crit chance by 1% (25 Agi) should increase your total dps by D (it goes up to D * ((N-1) + 2(C+1)) = D * (N+2C+1)).

The averaged "D" will be something close to your weapon dps plus your fully buffed AP, multiplied by the effect of flurry (say an avg. 25% for my toon, a little more or less depending on your crit rating, and see my closing caveat), multiplied by the effect of WF (an additional 36% less any inefficiencies in weapon speeds (?), plus an extra 475AP which I'll again leave out to simplify things), multiplied by (nearly) 10% for UR. I'm leaving out mongoose and other procs for now, and ignoring fights where you can't do constant damage, both because I think they have no impact, and because I want to keep this simple.

Let's also ignore the OH weapon entirely, since both AP and crits will be subject to the 50% reduction, and therefore it's immaterial to the analysis. Similarly, I'll ignore stormstrike. So if M = my main hand DPS, then for my toon this is my simplified non-crit dps:
D = (M + AP/14) * 1.25 * 1.36 * 1.10 = (M + AP/14) * 1.87

Now, recall that my overall DPS is D * (N+2C). This means that increasing my Agi by 25 (crit rate +1%) should directly increase my DPS by D. On the other hand, if I increase my Str by 25, the increase is:
(M + (AP + (2*Str))/14) * 1.87
------------------------------                     which reduces to
      (M + AP/14) * 1.87
14M + AP + 50
-------------
  14M + AP
With (for example) 90dps and 1500AP, the change is (1260+1500+50)/(1260+1500) = 2810/2760... which is a 1.8% benefit, and totally shocking to me... I thought the benefit would be much smaller when I started typing this. Probably my original mistake was not realizing that the various multipliers (adding up to *1.87) produced equal benefits to +crit and +AP. High M versus AP will reduce the relative benefit of Str, but now it looks like that would have to be unreasonably large to tip the balance in favor of crit.

Of course I've left out a lot of things... flurry uptime, UR uptime, add'l on-crit procs (if you have them), plus other things I've probably forgotten. These bring the equation closer to parity for Agi - but by how much? I have to believe someone else has already modeled this... which brings me back to my original question, can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?

Sorry for the long-winded post, it wound up producing unexpected results due to poorly-thought-out original assumptions. :-(

-W
#5424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?
Strength is worth 2.2 because 1 Strength = 2 AP = 2.2 AP with Kings. 1 point of Agility was valued using simulation to determine the change in DPS from steps in agility vs the same steps in attack power.
#5425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Malan -- great info. I don't get the bit about "flasks vs elixirs" being a reason for big differences in damage; Relentless Assault has only 10 EP more than Major Agility but on my server costs ten times more. Any non-progression raid where I intend to wipe fewer than 10 times, I use Major Agi.

In my experience, dps time is also a big determining factor in damage fluctuation, possibly equaling group makeup. Shamans who are talented runners, knowing exactly how far to run to escape some effect and when to run back, are going to put out more damage simply because they put in more time.

I'd probably throw something up there about weapon speed (since I still see a lot of unenlightened shamans running around with epic daggers, and yes I was once one), and probably a blurb about off-specs as well (Elemental having slightly higher personal DPS and Resto making for better versatility).

Question about DPS time: on fights with a lot of running, I generally hit Flame Shock as soon as I'm in range, then jam Stormstrike when I get close enough for that. This obviously increases my overall damage (since the shock cooldown is usually ready to go shortly after engaging the mob). But does it decrease the DPS stat? If I were "auditioning," would I be better off saving that first shock until after I had entered melee range?
#5451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
Doing math is hard.
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*35)^4.4))*100 = 84.97
Yeah, way off.
#5452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
beetlejuice
About me not giving numbers, i meant i hadn't any saved numbers to give when i made the post.
Also my raid dps has increased from 2xmongoose to mongoose+executioner, the comparison with my raid rogues had nothing to do without it. I am constantly top2-5 after the executioner.
Also, i found out that my raid rogues are mutilate spec the last two raids and i falsely believed that i was outdpsing the combat sword/dagger rogues of my guild.

I do believe critical rating is a wierd stat and the poster with the critical table where more critical will start giving less increase in dps, somehow proves my feeling.

However, the times i had a feral druid in my group instead of a 3rd rogue, were happy hours for me, as i had increased damage output.

Seeing Bragor doing such nice dps in winterchill, i promise to edit this post in the upcoming sunday/monday and give some wwstats for my winterchill fight. We have some similar gear, i lack some ap critical and hit rating compared to him but i am a bit more hasted and have some armor penetration gear.
A question abour your fight Bragor. I see you did just 2 earthshocks the whole fight? is that true? Seeing 24 stormstrikes 16 flameshocks and 2 earthshocks seems like you could fit in , say , 8 more flameshocks and 22 more earthshocks idealy speaking. Was it slacking ? Or was it totem twisting? nope it wasn't totem twisting, no GoA totem placed during the fight

Last edited by beetlejuice : 12/07/07 at 3:46 AM.
#5453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Say it's just trying to keep alive on winterchill.. had like 4~6 death & decays on melee.

My first respone is to do Flame shock first & By the time I get back to him I rerun my normal routine of Stormstrike first => Flameshock => Earthshock.
#5454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Man you need to Earthshock, Chain Lightning if you had to run out of it ^^ That is an absolute must 8)
#5455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
Yes, that behavior is in the game since some time. I think it started with 2.0, but was enhanced with 2.1. Searing is a great tool and it's idiotic that elemental shamans have to dump it for the crit totem, they should have made that an earth totem.

Regarding high end shaman dps, I reached some pretty high numbers in the run yesterday: Wow Web Stats. 1913 at Rage, 1700 at Anetheron/Kaz and 1800 at Teron.
#5456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Just a heads up, Blizzard is taking ideas for talent reviews now: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280012&sid=1#0

This could be our chance to get rid of shield spec and toughness (and anticipation for those of you that don't like it).
#5457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by drats View Post
Just a heads up, Blizzard is taking ideas for talent reviews now: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280012&sid=1#0

This could be our chance to get rid of shield spec and toughness (and anticipation for those of you that don't like it).
When I arena I actually take Toughness and Anticipation. Mostly for a lack of better talents, but a 10k+ armor target when I have a shield on and SR up makes a big difference when I get assist trained.

The real loser talents are Guardian Totems, Earth's grasp and Shield Spec. Cutting Healing Focus down to 3 points to be in line with the other healing classes would make a lot of sense too, considering how many points we put into resto.
#5458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes I posted in that thread this morning, it was already at over 15 pages though, who knows how much they'll read of it.
I mentioned the Relic and Armor itemization issues, Tier 1- Tier 4 talents being largely useless, and also mentioned that the Windfury tooltips really need to be fixed to indicate the cooldown.
#5459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0robertsmb
Hello forum. I just registered today and this is my first post, but I have referenced your site many times in the past regarding my class information, and I must say that you guys really know how to lay down the law when it comes to gaming. I will try to keep this as coherant as possible,... and I can only hope to understand this as well as you do.

Ok,

My main is a Draenei Shaman. 0/47/14 Enhancement Spec. My gear is what I consider to be "low raid", but all epics. Teir 4, Heroics, Kara mostly, and Gruul. Armory can be found under the character "Moorah" on the garona server. I currently am the only raiding shaman in my guild, so I get every mail epic that drops. I have experienced every raiding spec with full epic gear at or around the level of the instances I described.

The weapons I currently use swap constantly because I have collected so many drops. My armory should currently show the Decaptitator (With Mongoose) and the Merciless Gladiators Hacker (1.5 speed, yes its fast but it was the only thing i could afford with 1000 arena points). For a slow offhand, the only option I have is the Boggspine Knuckles from Heroic Underbog. I have them enchanted with Crusader.


Ive been referencing this "enhancment bible" and messing with Yo's calc. I had 2 small questions about Haste and DPS, and the effect of white damage on my overall DPS. For this test I will assume that the slow offhand is the best DPS choice of my current gear, and will be using the Boggspine Knuckles for the offhand, and changing my 2 main hand weapons to see results. See below.

I was assuming that the calculator will not emulate the in game results 100%, and its more of a baseline tool to use to tweak what effects a gear's upgrde's would have on your overall dps. All the same, I questioned some results, and wanted some smart people to help me justify them.

Firstly,

I followed the directions on the calc and imput my personal stats as requested. Weapon information, enchants, talents, and all buffs that I normally have in my 10 man setting... using the Decapitator MH with mongoose, and the Bog Knucks OH with Crusader. I also checked the option to run the AEP and set the hours to 10,000. I even felt leet and decided to dedicate one complete part of my dual core processor to running the app. =) After 4 or 5 mins, the DPS showed 919, and the AEP showed me that haste rating would best benifit my DPS increases. I did this run with the haste rating at 0 and the haste potion (50 static haste) turned off. My trinket on the calculator was the Hourglass of the Unraveler, but I also have the Abacus of Violent Odds (260 haste)

With that in mind, I knew I had The Bladefist in the bank. Which gave me an idea.

I did some quick research that showed me that the 180 haste proc on the bladefist is up about 65-69% of all fights, and has a proc rate of 3ppm according to testing using procwatch (Wowhead: Not soulbound. Share it with your friends!). After some fancy math that I didnt understand, the site said that it was about equal to having a standard haste rating of 90. 90 haste rating is about 5.7% haste using the formula for calculating haste found on the Yo's calc directions.

I imput the stats for the lower DPS Bladefist (83.3 compared with 92.1 from the decap) and added the adjustment to haste and slight adjustment to my crit for loosing the decapitator. I also have Crusader on the Bladefist, so I loose my mongoose, but I adjusted that weapon buff as well. The DPS jumped up to 936 from 919, with a lower DPS weapon. This is an increase of 17 DPS from using a lower DPS weapon with no more mongoosee enchant.... so loosing that 4.8% crit from mongoose.

Also, on the AEP side of the calc, it now showed that haste rating was not as important as hit rating.... actually hit was now double the AEP of haste. =) LOL.

Can someoen explain how this works, or what would be my next step in determining what weapon combo woudl most benift me? How does adding all this haste affect my Windfury proc cooldown? Is it better to add haste or not? Would it be better to use the Bladefist or the Decapitator? Haste Pots?

What would be the benifit of the slight mongoose haste buff on the bladefist or popping the trinket (abacus)? Dual Mongoose haste buff?

Question number 2.

About hit rating.

From what I gather from this post about hit rating,.. its nice to have, but not necesary. The Yo's calc theoretically breaks down what percentage of your DPS comes from what type of hit..... Im sure this is uniform for everyone, but for me it showed 48% of my DPS comes from white dmg. Windfury and Stormstrike, my 2 specials only amounted to 44% of my total dmg output.

This is my confusion.

I read this post to understand that specials would be the majority of my damage output in fights, and that getting the 9% from talents would be enough +hit to max those specials.

This evidence suggests that white dmg is more of my dps than windfury and stormstrike (and even shocks) combined, and that hit would be more benificial to have.

Please advise.

Thanks for the great information guys. Keep up the good work.
#5460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Darkkow
Hello,

I have been a long time reader of this forum, and thought I would pass along some webstats if anyone wants to take a look at them, and garner what information they can from them. I joined Pinnacle on 10/04/07, and had dual mongoose on both weapons at all times, until 2.3.0 patch came out. As of any webstats posted after 11/14/07 that I am in, I have had a mongoose/executioner enchant on at all times.

I am hoping that this can be used to help parse some information. If there is anything else that I can help in contributing, please feel free to contact me, Darkkow on Llane. I am always up for gathering information for a good cause.


Thanks!

Wow Web Stats
#5461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Skiace
Originally Posted by robertsmb View Post
This is my confusion.

I read this post to understand that specials would be the majority of my damage output in fights, and that getting the 9% from talents would be enough +hit to max those specials.

This evidence suggests that white dmg is more of my dps than windfury and stormstrike (and even shocks) combined, and that hit would be more benificial to have.
This thread never claimed that yellow melee would make up the majority of your damage. The bottom line on the hit discussion is that it's not as important to enhance shaman as it is to rogues and fury warriors (which is where we were getting initial cues on how to dps from, and where the "hit is king" idea came from). There are three primary reasons for this.

The first is that we get 9% hit from talents which caps yellow attacks.

The second is that white hits make up a smaller percentage of our dps than it does for raiding rogues. We see white around ~45% of our dps, while combat rogues see ~60% of their dps from white hits. If white hits are 45% of your dps, then +hit past 9% from talents will improve 45% of your dps. AP/crit, on the other hand, will improve both white and yellow damage, which combined make up ~90% of your dps.

The third reason (and the one that's often most overlooked) is that we do not have a white->yellow feedback system like rogues and fury warriors do. Rogues have combat potency, fury warriors have rage generated by white hits. When either class sees more white hits, it translates into more energy/rage available for more yellow hits. In this way, +hit for these two will improve their yellow dps even after their specials are hit capped.

Then again, everything I've said up to this point is already stated clearly in the OP.


As for your personal results from the sim, everyone's gear is different. In progressing from 5-man blues through kara and now T5 (working on vashj), Yo's sim never reported my EP for hit as low as the 1.4 that other's have seen. At one point around the end of kara, I was running over 190 hit rating, now I'm at only 87. I didn't make a decision to dump hit, I just used the average values from the sim and took gear upgrades accordingly.

Last edited by Skiace : 12/07/07 at 5:43 PM.
#5462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
We do have white->yellow system. Windfury. Its have have cooldown but its not instant with timer. Going for 0 to hit to hit cap also give 10% more wf damage and also raise flurry uptime to 80% from 78%. This means that 18% to hit give to 10% more WF procs. All these numbers come from YO's simulator using base values only modified hit%.
#5463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Darkkow -- welcome brother!

Data is great but it does need some context. Did you have any substantial gear upgrades between, say, your black temple runs on 10/7 and 10/14 (I don't see any Expertise gear or badge rewards)? Are you generally in the same sort of group every week?

A quick glance at the average damage from your melee attacks looks like you're doing about 5% more melee damage with Executioner (which may have something to do with your crit rating being so high)...but more context is needed to determine if that's from Executioner alone.
#5464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Darkkow
Toots -- Thanks!

Expertise gear was not available until the 2.3 patch, so I have kind of been waiting to see the data from all the theorycrafting to see if it really will be more benificial to us. As for loot upgrades, I had some along the way:

10/02/07 -(my apologies, first raid not 10/04) - Band of Devistation, so slight Haste upgrade
10/03/07 - Shadow-Walker's Cord - gear upgrade as well as haste
10/04/07 - T6 gloves from Fist of Mukoa
10/04/07 - Forest Prowler's Helm - HUGE upgrade from T4
10/10/07 - Sofstep Boots of Tracking from Star-Strider boots

As for the group makeup, it usually consists of 3 sword rogues and 1 fury warrior, with the very rare occasion a feral druid thrown in for one of the rogues. Part of the variances you see are also based on some rogues trying out Hemo, a warrior trying out Blood Frenzy, a Paly trying out Ret, but for the most part they were only for 1-2 raids.

If you need some more information, I am a lucky to have 2 Syphons, 1 with Executioner and 1 with Mongoose, to go along with my Rising Tide with Mongoose. I also have a Dragonstrike with Mongoose on it. So if you need some data, let me know, and I will run a couple hour test in the blasted lands for people to parse thru the information. Always glad to help out.
#5465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
This has been the behavior for a while now. The problem is that if it starts charging up the shot before the mob is sheeped, it will not "cancel" its cast if the mob is sheeped. So it can break the sheep, once it's broken it will be a valid target, rinse & repeat. You still have to be careful using Searing on multi-mob pulls (personally, I just don't use it on anything other than bosses.)
#5466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes still not sure how the heck I managed to miss that change though. Oh well, its definitely improved Searing Totem usage by the shaman in our raids after I informed them about it. 4-5 of them up on every trash pack now.

Rob if you have some spare time, how would you feel about figuring out the RED EP value on Yo's sim?
#5467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Az-
Anyone know of a site like Lootzor that is updated with haste and ignore armor?

Been looking but not having much luck.

Till next time...
#5468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Thottbot has a similar system its just annoying to use.
#5469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0djaehns
Originally Posted by Az- View Post
Anyone know of a site like Lootzor that is updated with haste and ignore armor?

Been looking but not having much luck.

Till next time...

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

The problem is that this guy hasn't finished the enhancer yet. But perhaps this is good news for us, we could support him with the knowdledgo of this thread. I think this could be a nice tool then.
#5470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
To Malan.
With your gear RED is 86ep.
#5471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
To Malan.
With your gear RED is 86ep.
Well crud that eliminates damn near every helm that I could replace it with easily. =\
#5472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

The problem is that this guy hasn't finished the enhancer yet. But perhaps this is good news for us, we could support him with the knowdledgo of this thread. I think this could be a nice tool then.
Does he have any clue what he's doing? Does he show his work? I don't like the thought of trusting a closed source dps application. We've all had major errors in ours - Pater's, mine, enshamulator's Yo!'s, that were found through peer review.
#5473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
LazyJoe
Just quoting myself :

Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
I'm currently having ~30% crit unbuffed, let's say my average crit rating in raid situation is 40% (pretty easy to reach with kings, MotW, the feral aura and double mongoose enchant.... if i drop GoA i have more than 50% when the two mongooose proc, yes i'm a crit lover )

So my attack table on a boss looks like this :

13,3% miss
5,6% dodge
25% glancing blows
16,1% regular hit
40% crit

To simplify things, if I assume a regular white hit to be 100 damage, we have :

16,1% * 100 = 16,1 dps from hit damage
25% * 0.7 * 100 = 17,5 dps from glancing blows
40% * 2 * 100 = 80 dps from crits

so 113,6 dps, with a very significant part coming from crits

now if i have add the RED effect, crits will do

40% * 2 * 1.03 * 100 = 82,4 dps

This leads to a total of 116 dps with RED.

116/113,4 = 1,021 so the RED is a 2,1 % dps increase in my situation
You can easily replace your own values in the math to get your own RED contribution, but it should be at least around 2% for any well-geared shaman in a real raid situation (may slightly vary if you stack lots of hit/expertise). But even with crappy gear in a non-optimal situation (ie no feral aura) it will at least be around 1.5%, so it is always a very solid dps increase, you have to gain a lot of EP (80+ seems accurate) if you change your helm for another one where you can't put an RED.

EDIT : forgot about the new mental swiftness, which should lower a bit the results, just like it changed the EP value of crits.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 12/09/07 at 12:56 PM.
#5474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Az-
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Thottbot has a similar system its just annoying to use.
Yeah I am starting to work on that but for some reason I can not get it to save the values I put in so it always pulls up the items they have defalted to. Will have to play with it more as I get time.

Till next time...
#5475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Weem
I stumbled across this site this evening: Loot Rank. It allows you to input your EP values much like Lootzor. Has separate options for each gem color as well as meta gems. Even has expertise and armor pen (but not haste). It even has the ability to save up to 5 different sets of values. I noticed a bug with critical strike rating not being calculated properly and mentioned in the forums as well as the lack of a melee haste option. If he gets those two working it seems it'll be an excellent Lootzor alternative.
#5501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Quizzle View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
Wow Web Stats

We certainly arent top DPS when equally geared, but we arent useless as DPS either!

(p.s. if you look at the bloodboil kill im so low because im eatting bloodboil debuffs due to a lack of casters and we didnt want our healers to have to move much!)
#5502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Ok seems I was really slow on answering here so I deleted it ...
#5503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
T4 Helm Upgrades

Another viable option is the Leather Badge helm, and also the Engineering Helms are noteworthy, especially if you occasionally respec. HAving 3x T5-level helms isn't bad at all.
#5504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quizzle
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
Wow Web Stats

We certainly arent top DPS when equally geared, but we arent useless as DPS either!

(p.s. if you look at the bloodboil kill im so low because im eatting bloodboil debuffs due to a lack of casters and we didnt want our healers to have to move much!)
Well then, it seems my gear is very much lacking. I have trouble pulling 700 dps in SSC (we're just starting). I must say, 1600+ dps is a pretty impressive number, and I've got some work to do!
#5505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
bottom [Cyclone Helm] = [Grimgrin Faceguard] = [Coif of the Jungle Stalker]
midfield [Mask of the Deceiver] << [Deathblow X11 Goggles] < [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] < [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] = [Cataclysm Helm] < [Skyshatter Cover] < [Forest Prowler's Helm]
top [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]

S3 helmet is so easy to get, 2-4 weeks of 1h each for your 5on5 leeching team and it's done.

1600 dps seems to be a lot, but he has a good amount of support besides his haste potions and battle shout:

The mob has low base armor and
- curse of recklessness
- fearie fire
- hemorrhage
- expose weakness
- sunder armor

And it's a static tank&spank fight. It's a shame he didn't even try to twist totem on this fight.
#5506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
bottom [Cyclone Helm] = [Grimgrin Faceguard] = [Coif of the Jungle Stalker]
midfield [Mask of the Deceiver] << [Deathblow X11 Goggles] < [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] < [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] = [Cataclysm Helm] < [Skyshatter Cover] < [Forest Prowler's Helm]
top [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]

S3 helmet is so easy to get, 2-4 weeks of 1h each for your 5on5 leeching team and it's done.

1600 dps seems to be a lot, but he has a good amount of support besides his haste potions and battle shout:

The mob has low base armor and
- curse of recklessness
- fearie fire
- hemorrhage
- expose weakness
- sunder armor

And it's a static tank&spank fight. It's a shame he didn't even try to twist totem on this fight.
Personally I dont try to totem twist anymore. Its a pretty interesting point and I am certainly interested in other peoples thoughts on it, but I am happier with the DPS output of perfectly timing shock rotations and stormstrikes right on the nose of a WF CD. My DPS certainly could have been higher but its only the 2nd time my guild killed that boss so I was a bit more focused on complaining about incompetent tools who cant hit 5-4-3-3-3-3-5-4-3-3-3-3.

Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
I made a grand total of roughly 200 melee attacks on the boss, so hemo added what? 1400 damage total? assuming 100% uptime!
Definetly had CoR, despite much(retarded) complaining from the healers.
the haste thing you see in the WWS is from DST, not haste potions though, im too poor to spam those down the drain :/.
#5507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aftershocks
your dps?

I don't think you realize the reason we are brought to raids... not for our own dps you could bring another rogue to out dps us... we add anywhere between 1k-1500 dps to our group...

Anyway, reason I'm posting is I had a pertinent question regarding the best rotation for max dps you have seen or experienced while still Totem twisting. I used to SS (using this Cool down as my reference for when to begin the rotation again) then WF, GoA, FS and repeat. Then I began using this rotation which also comes out to you needing to repeat once you have finished your rotation to keep WF on the group but it's WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES making sure you start attacking first before you start this rotation or you will gimp your dps for about 5 seconds. You can easily switch FS and ES in that rotation to accommodate having an Elemental shaman as you are indeed there to boost your raids dps not your own.

If anyone has a better rotation, a more inventive or imaginative one that you purpose may up the dps of the enhancement shaman as well keeping your groups OP buffs up please do respond.

#5508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Hemorrhage(Rank 4)
35 Energy	                         5 yd range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 125% weapon damage
and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any
Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 36.
Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Analyzing Traker wws hemorrage contribution.
36per charge. Crit % multiplier. Wf 1.4 multiplier. I think there isnt Off-hand penalty.(tell me if I'm wrong)
With 100% Hemorrhage uptime(definetly way high, its bugged now and spells eat debuff)
Melee 118hits 34%crit = 5692 damage added.
Wf 65 hits 31% crit = 4291 damage added.
SS 30 hits 36% crit = 1469 damage added

Total 11451damage or 47dps.
#5509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Hemorrhage(Rank 4)
35 Energy	                         5 yd range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 125% weapon damage
and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any
Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 36.
Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Analyzing Traker wws hemorrage contribution.
36per charge. Crit % multiplier. Wf 1.4 multiplier. I think there isnt Off-hand penalty.(tell me if I'm wrong)
With 100% Hemorrhage uptime(definetly way high, its bugged now and spells eat debuff)
Melee 118hits 34%crit = 5692 damage added.
Wf 65 hits 31% crit = 4291 damage added.
SS 30 hits 36% crit = 1469 damage added

Total 11451damage or 47dps.
You are completely right. I wrote my post while walking out the door :P I thought hemorrage only amplified damage by 7! No real clue where I got that number from, unless it was the value at level 60.

The problem I have with totem twisting is that the easy way to do it is to tie it in with the stormstrike cooldown, but I like to save stormstrike to proc windfury, and i'd rather just keep WF up 100% than risk 60-80% WF uptime+ increased GCD tension for 60-80% uptime of GoA.
#5510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
I checked when the ZA loot was first posted and it pretty much rules out all helms with no meta socket. Very annoying, it also made T4 shoulders worth an extra 24 AP (26 AP with kings) and I was stuck looking like some Karazhan reject for ages. S3 helm is pretty much the best upgrade but it looks even worse than T4.
#5511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!

As far as rotations, I usually shock before re-dropping WF/GoA if the cooldown coincides with them fading. I've noticed the WF Totem buff seems to actually last longer than it's 10 second duration, so I usually prioritize it as follows: Stormstrike > Earth Shock/Flame Shock > Totems.
#5512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I only recently started twisting, since I had huge troubles keeping up with the mana usage before 2.3 (Paladins sucking at keeping JoW, I suppose). I'm having some troubles doing it and keeping up with shocking every cd though, I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?

Do people use a macro to twist or do they do it manually? I presume a lot of people use Disquette's addon (so do I) but maybe there are some tricks and tips to it that I'm just missing. All help is appreciated, really.
#5513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0wirbelwind
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Tsunami Talisman] have 10% chance on your crit hit to increase attack power , when all raid buff I have 40+% crit , up to 4+% chance to increase attack power .

Quote: VIII.8 Itemization - Relic Slot
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8

16.8 * 6 = 100.8 ≈ 100 , means every min I have 4+ chance to increase attack power .

[Hourglass of the Unraveller] 264 EP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 4 / 60 ))

[Tsunami Talisman] 316.66 EP = (( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 38 * CritRating ) + ( 340 * 10 * 4 / 60 ))
#5514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Oscarvil
The spot you put your procrate is determined by the hidden cooldown of each of the trinkets, not your critrate.
#5515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Retaliate
I've perused this post for probably 2 hours now looking for the breakdown of why WF is better in a certain group than GoA, or why WF is better for rogues/warriors than GoA.

I'm sure the math is here somewhere, I just cannot locate it. Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction?
#5516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Having bit same issue with Malan, hard times replacing T4 helm. Grimguard from ZA should be upgrade for T4 helm even bit marginal along shoulders from bear boss in ZA. However T4 2p set bonus while being in melee group overshadows pretty much every other gear choices there is. 5x12str + 10% from BoK is raidwise better than any other combo available if I'm right.

Soloing, random heroics or kara badge runs(depending grp setup) grimguard + pauldrons of primal fury are bit better...

What comes to earlier discussion about shaman dps at my level of gear I managed to put out around 1050dps on Morogrim in SSC + searing was hitting over 210 on each tick. Managed to be #1 for our run (thanks for grp setup had agi totem :p). But looking class potential I should be doing somewhat less dps later on than rogues. I really wish that devs will change combat logging system along totems soon so can get my totem damage visible. Those fire totems do significant amount of damage.
#5517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Originally Posted by Retaliate View Post
I've perused this post for probably 2 hours now looking for the breakdown of why WF is better in a certain group than GoA, or why WF is better for rogues/warriors than GoA.
direction?
I'm following simple rule if there is 3+ classes in my team benefitting more from WF than GoA then I'll drop WF otherwise GoA.
#5518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I only recently started twisting, since I had huge troubles keeping up with the mana usage before 2.3 (Paladins sucking at keeping JoW, I suppose). I'm having some troubles doing it and keeping up with shocking every cd though, I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?

Do people use a macro to twist or do they do it manually? I presume a lot of people use Disquette's addon (so do I) but maybe there are some tricks and tips to it that I'm just missing. All help is appreciated, really.
I tried making some time lines a while ago to figure out the optimum rotation and there is just not a way to get in a shock every cooldown while keeping wf/goa up(short of dropping wf/goa earlier than every 10 seconds, and there is no way in hell you will be able to sustain the mana for this).

I tried free twisting for a while by watching timer bars and I was having issues keeping the totems flowing due to various raiding distractions and switched to a macro that I could spam. It is entirely lazy but pretty stress free giving me assurance that the group will always have wf/goa at the cost of sub.5% of personal dps. You have a little bit of leeway as mentioned above, the WF buff takes longer than it lists to fade but I would only recommend halting the cycle if the cooldowns are right on top of each other, waiting any additional time to keep the totems going is a waste(all imo, of course!).

As for the water shield change, I don't really see it alleviating any of the GCD stress I have. So many things proc water shield in fights and I rarely get the full 1 minute tick off on any sort of occasion that it would save me a GCD with a 10 minute timer.
#5519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0mek
Originally Posted by Mulgero View Post
I'm following simple rule if there is 3+ classes in my team benefitting more from WF than GoA then I'll drop WF otherwise GoA.
This is completely backwards. WF is one of the most powerful buffs in the game, and due to its scaling it wildly outstrips the potential of GOA in a level-capped situation when everyone's all done up in purples. If anyone in your group can benefit from WF, it's likely that you should be dropping WF.

Which classes benefit from GoA over WF?
  • Hunters and their pets (especially survival hunters in a 25man setting, GoA buffs their expose weakness)
  • Feral druids
  • Yourself
  • Poorly-geared rogues (or possibly mutilate rogues in a 5man setting)
  • Tanking warriors in a situation where threat is irrelevant
This is already a small section of the population. More importantly, the benefit of GoA remains static; WF is a multiplier. It can also significantly increase the threat generation of a warrior, and consequently everyone's dps ceiling. The MT group is not dps optimal for you, but it frequently is for the raid.

Generally, if there is one warrior in your group, whatever benefit GoA may give the rest of the group is outweighed by WF's benefit for them. And you should ALWAYS have a warrior in your group, as their battle shout does way more for you than your GoA would - it's a tradeoff you should be happy to make. If you're so thirsty for that extra crit, you should look into twisting.
#5520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Lujaar
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?
It is as 16/45/0. SS-shock-WF-GoA-shock-repeat. Without totemic focus you'd need a ton of incoming mana to sustain it, but it's doable.

As enh/resto you get into a logjam with the global cooldown if you try to shock every 6 seconds.

0.0s - WF
1.5s - GoA
3.0s - shock
4.5s - stormstrike
9.0s- (shock is up, but shocking will push back your next WF totem)
10.0s - WF
11.5s - GoA
13.0s - shock
14.5s- stormstrike
19.0s- (shock is up, but will push back your WF totem)
20.0s- WF
21.5s- GoA
23.0s- shock
24.5s- stormstrike
29.0s- (shock is up, but shocking will push back your next WF totem)
---cycle starts over---
30.0s- WF
31.5s- GoA
33.0s- shock
34.5s- stormstrike
....

If you recast your air totems every 10 seconds exactly, you shock every 10 seconds maximum.


EDIT: If you're willing to accept a half-second of no WF totem once every 30 seconds, you can thread in a 4th shock and shock about every 7.5 seconds. Probably worth it if you've got the mana.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/11/07 at 7:00 AM.
#5521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales with gear, but so does GoA to some extent. Added crit to any AP class scales. You have 1500 AP and the added crit gives you X added damage. 2000 AP and the added crit gives you Y added damage where Y > X.That being said, I agree that WF probably is the best totem to pop in most groups where one class can benefit from it. I don't agree with this being the only option as DPS warriors can be threat capped and you have three hunters in your group drooling over GoA and dropping their threat at alarming levels.

Old and pretty boring discussion, I know. I'm at "I ask the group". Some warriors even ask me to pop tranq once in a blue moon.

One thing to add to the list, mek: GoA for avoidance. In fights where the boss/mobs hits like a train or the tank is under-geared.
#5522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vernius
Fantastic thread.

Great job to all those who've spent the time, crunched the numbers, and had enough love for this class to figure out how the heck enhancement shamans can be great contributors to a guild.

Although I just registered today, I've been reading this thread for quite a while. I have to say I got kind of >sniff< emotional, when I first stumbled into here, and found a whole damn herd (apologies to my fellow Tauren) of enhancement shamans who could understand the different issues I had been dealing with in order to be viable.

Since then, this has been an inexaustable resource for all of my concerns and questions, and acts as my own personal WoW Dear Abby. Once again, to all of you who've help my toon be more deadly in PVP, and get pretty high on the who-do-we-want-in-the-raid chart,

/salute
#5523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Got an ideal group last night (Rogue, 2 Warriors, Druid). Broke 1000 dps for the first time. Thanks to everyone here for helping me get strong through maths and impeccable grammar.
#5524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Boethius changed the LaTeX module for the forums last night and it broke a lot of my equations, bear with me while I get them fixed over the next few days.

This is in preparation for the Theorycraft Think Tank (the wiki project) to open which should hopefully be very very soon. I gave up trying to keep the wiki article updated at the same time as this one about 2 months ago, so the wiki article is horribly outdated right now and might be in bad shape when the wiki goes live.
#5525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
My best on teron was 1755, using everything available. Though I think there was no CoR on the boss. The next time there was no feral druid and his faerie fire, I didn't reach more than 1500 doing the same thing (might be possible that it was because the randomness of our dps). Traker, shout at your druids if they don't do their job.
#5526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
My best on teron was 1755, using everything available. Though I think there was no CoR on the boss. The next time there was no feral druid and his faerie fire, I didn't reach more than 1500 doing the same thing (might be possible that it was because the randomness of our dps). Traker, shout at your druids if they don't do their job.
#5527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Myul View Post

Is Grimgrin really this bad? I calculated the AEP values and it seems like its one of the best options in the game. Certainly better than T4 or the Coif, no?

I suppose the real question is: What is a good estimate for AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond given T5ish gear? If its not over 50, then the Grimgrin is even better than T6 according to my (probably horribly wrong) math.
#5528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
I hate that this post seems over simplified and on the border of reportable, but the following is the best way I can figure to say it.


Meta = win.

You should be critting enough that the 3% is a pretty huge upgrade, there are similar talks going on in the feral druid thread, but yes, the meta is that good.

Ok, there I think I explained it enough to make it not sound like a bullshit post.
#5529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Regarding Twisting, GCDs and Shocks:
I've been trying twisting with GoA/Tranquil and I've been pretty pleased with the results. DisquoDice is pretty damn good. I have been running into the same issues with shock timing. Encounter mechanics usually prevent a perfect twisting situation, which is standing in one place, and hitting something. I've been getting better at it, and the only advice I can give is: make every GCD count.

Firstly, it's best to drop the twisted totem right after Windfury. This means you need 2 GCDs to refresh the Windfury buff and restore the twisted totem. Using DisquoDice, you can look at the shock/SS bars and see about how soon they will be available, relative to each-other. You can also take a look at the WF cooldown bar. SS and Shock frequently come up near each-other, so usually you need 2 GCDs to keep those up, too. What you want to avoid is a situation where you are delaying abilities due to the GCD on others. Windfury totem is critical, Stormstrike is damn important (other people use my SS charges), and shocks are also important to proc the totem. The least important thing on the list is the twisted totem. If you need an extra few GCDs, leave Windfury down for another 5s to get another pulse (Pulses every 5, buff lasts 10). The situation you want to avoid most is leaving down the twisted totem and letting Windfury fall off, so if you are looking at DQD and it looks like there is a GCD-cluster-f**k coming up. Drop Windfury early, do your SS/shocks, refresh other totems or whatever, and then keep twisting.

In the end it's playstyle and practice. I try to lay non-twisted totems while moving, if the encounter mechanics allow for it. Example: Void Reaver, when stepping back out of the pounding, refresh mana/str/searing. It's just a matter of trying to not let the abilities that need refreshing stack up on you.
#5530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0inomen
Hi, I am having some trouble getting the most out of my guilds enhancement Shammy. he is one of the highest attendance members in the guild and I'd like to have him included in our Kael fight but his DPS is just to low to merit the spot while we learn the fight. SSC WWS here is the most recent clear of SSC and Kael WWS is the most recent attempts on Kael with him there. A few things to note about him; he tanks the mace in Phase 2, he does the dagger debuff on Thaladred in Phase 3, and he does twist totems. Here is his Armory, I would like any advice you have that you could give him to improve his performance in the Kael fight.
#5531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
Im not really sure what you want from him. You have him doing a lot of different rolls, of course his dps is gonna be pretty low. Especially with totem twisting you have to factor in how much he's giving the rest of the group(if its a well placed melee group with warrior and rogues itll be several hundred dps at least, probably more around 1k),

He'll also do very minimal dmg on thaladred. Do you not have another warrior who could apply the dagger? Its a really rough job for a shaman, especially since you want him giving melee totems.
#5532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I took a look at his actions on Kael attempt #9, using the Browse Combat Log, and you've got some problems here.

There's a good chance that your log is bad, there seems to be a lot of shit missing from just the first page of it. The log shows him doing brief damage to Thaladred, a few hits on Sanguinar, Flame Shocks on Capernian (you should brow beat him for being in range of her, that's really fucking stupid), and then suddenly jumps to him hitting the Cosmic Infuser.

Either your log is bad, or your shaman went afk for huge stretches at a time.

His DPS is going to *drop* from using the dagger. Have a Rogue or a Warrior handle that role. It doesn't look like he had Battle Shout the entire attempt. That's bad.

[e] Good god he was meleeing Capernian as well. Good grief, you need to have a talk with this guy. The further into the log I browse its definitely a combination of the log being fucked up, and him running around not knowing what to do apparently.
#5533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0inomen
Yeah we tried to cut town on the number of tanks in there, we run 3, so he tanks the mace. I guess I'm wondering if 500 dps is good or is there something I can get him to do to improve his damage or would it be worth having an extra prot warrior in there to do the same jobs as well as dispelling MC's and helping pick up the birds. and as for him being afk, for Phase 1 none of the meele really does anything.
#5534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
No he should be doing a hell of a lot better than 500 DPS on that fight with the gear he's got.

I hear what you are saying about Phase 1, however, there is no record of him even hitting Telonicus in phase 1, and barely any record of him hitting Sanguinar (like 5 hits... that's it). Either he DCd off an on during the fight, or he was afk, or whoever did your logging doesn't have their log set to 200 yards. One or more of those things are true. Either way he shouldn't be meleeing Capernian as that's just asking to die.
#5535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
Also, you said you run 3 tanks, that should be good enough for all the weapons. He shouldnt have to tank something, but if you have him tanking something, thats fine, just prepare to have his dps be slightly lower during that part(only if hes smart and using watching his hp, pots and healthstones). But for the most part he should be able to do dps then. More then likely I have to agree with Malan, and say your combat log is screwed.
#5536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hamilburg
I'm also going to go out on a limb here and guess that your Shaman is throwing on a shield for tanking the mace. Cutting to just phase 2 of attempt 9 - Wow Web Stats
all of his hits and crits are in the same damage range which certainly seems to indicate 1h weapon activity.

So to recap - Phase 1 - subject to all the woes that melee are, only being able to DPS 2 of the 4 bosses
Phase 2 - tanking, 1h and shield
Phase 3 - chasing Telonicus
Phase 4+-..?
Wow Web Stats
Doesn't seem so bad to me.

Bar issues with meleeing Capernian and being stuck on a role that he is VERY poorly suited for (dagger on Thaladred)
Hiplainsdrif - WWS
(Being unable to get any sort of runspeed buff makes switching targets atrociously hard)

Here is a cut of my own raid's second Kael kill:
Wow Web Stats
My DPS shows decently
Looking at specifically phase 4 (may not have clipped it exactly so some of Phase 5 is in there)
Wow Web Stats
Your shaman's DPS when given free reign to DPS is in fact better than mine. If you're worried about his DPS I can say reasonably that it is because you are squashing his DPS on portions of the fight where he can contribute rather than having him just stick with melee for totems/Unleashed Rage. (Also note, my parse cuts out phase 1)
#5537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Have your shaman tank the staff, not the mace. The mace hits for almost 1k more from what I remember. The staff is easily tankable without a shield and just full burning it with late-cast interrupts.

Don't grab any of the weapons. The dagger is a dps drop, and you hurt people a lot more when dispelling MC then a rogue or warrior would. The axe gives some big numbers and isn't better then normal DW.
#5538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Lujaar
Your shaman seems fine in SSC. As for kael...

I notice your rogues don't do a lot of damage to Telonicus either. I also notice your shaman is barely under your rogues, despite being given a couple jobs where he couldn't fully dps.

The only time I can actually find him meleeing Capernian appears to be while a wipe is in progress. Looks to me like he's committing suicide, which is exactly what he should be doing. 27k damage on Capernian is probably the 5% of his damage that's coming from lightning bolt/chain lightning. Edit: nevermind, Malan's right, he's trying to melee Capernian. And not dying every time he does it. There's no justice in the world.

By the way, having your shaman put on a shield in phase 2 and then keep the dagger debuff on Thaladred in phase 3 is going to absolutely fuck his mana. He's blowing shamanistic rage in phase 2 when he doesn't have an offhand equipped, and then he's not getting enough melee presence to get a good shamanistic rage off in phase 3. He'll do a lot better if you take him off one of those jobs, or just let him tank the mace without a shield. My guild used a similar setup to control the mace, only I didn't have a shield on and the rogue was throwing stuns. Tell Vasher to stunlock the mace (which he's not doing according to WWS and I can't imagine why not) and tell Hiplainsdrif not to put a shield on and I think it'll work out better.

You're posting a WWS of your guild wiping on the melee-unfriendly portion of Kael'thas, you have your enh shaman in a utility role that gimps his DPS for most of the fight, and you're saying he doesn't do enough DPS. It's like bringing an OT prot warrior to Lurker for the adds, and then dropping him when his dps on Lurker isn't high enough. Unless I missed something your shaman is doing his job, it's just that the job you've given him doesn't involve dealing much damage. Edit: Well, he's doing his job except that he's meleeing Capernian, so yeah, you should probably smack him in the head a few times before you bring him back to Kael.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/12/07 at 9:23 AM.
#5539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
The only time I can actually find him meleeing Capernian appears to be while a wipe is in progress. Looks to me like he's committing suicide, which is exactly what he should be doing. 27k damage on Capernian is probably the 5% of his damage that's coming from lightning bolt/chain lightning.
Negative, check attempt #9 in the first 5 minutes of the fight, and he's meleeing on Capernian in Phase 1, and that attempt goes well into Phase 4.
#5540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
I have been doing a lot of research looking at other shamans weapon combos, trying to figure out what I should do next, if anything. Currently, I use Dragonstrike/Syphon. A second syphon would go to me, next time it drops (more than likely), but one other warrior is interested in Rising Tide, but I would get that if he wasn't around that night. Granted, I am talking about if I want them.

I did some testing on blasted lands mobs just to see my proc ration of MH to OH windfurry with the Dragonstrike/Syphon combo. I did this by just tallying the WFers as they procced manually. After all that testing, it rounded out to about 3 MH procs to every 4 OH procs, so in other words, I am getting a decent amount of OH procs.

So, here is the real question....for those of you that are this anal about testing this stuff, whats your ratio of MH to OH procs? I don't like getting more OH procs than MH, but I don't want to freak out about it. And if so, what would be the best combo to go with? I see and read a lot of people here that use RT/Syphon, but some people also use dual Syphons. I understand that by using a slightly slower weapons speed in your MH, you would achieve more MH procs, but with a 2.7/2.8 combo like I am using, I am not getting that so far.

My dps on fights like Terron hang around the 1300 range (last Terron kill). My group is almost always two rogues and two DW warriors.

Thoughts? I know this question has been tossed around a lot, just want to get as many peoples opinions as possible.
#5541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Karok(EU)
I've been an avid theorycrafter but lately I've begun to notice something odd.

While putting in my stats in Yo!'s sim and I allways seem to get absurdly high AEP values for Hit rating.

The stats in question: (totally unbuffed, not even totems, kings not added either)
1636 AP 30,1% crit, 6,53% hit (103 rating), 4,31% haste, 175 ArP, Dragonstrike + Rod of the Sun King and Ashtongue trinket (see armory link..)
In the buff section I assumed BoM, MotW, SoE, a flask and +20str Food)

The gear is mostly MH/BT gear with some residual t4/5 items.

The AEP values I get are:

AP: 1
Crit: 2.21
Hit: 3.88
Haste: 1.8
Agi: 1.95

Whilst all stats appear to be reasonably within bounds of the suggested AEP values of the first post the hit rating jumps out considerably. So either I am messing up with the input, the sim is wrong or hit rating does increasingly become more valuable as the other stats go up (which doesn't sound all that illogical actually).

Do other "end-game" shamans get similar results?

Edit: *Facepalm*

Ok now getting :

AP: 1
Str: 2
Crit: 2.08
Hit: 1.88
Haste: 1.82
Agi: 1.84

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/12/07 at 12:36 AM.
#5542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Do you have the AP->Spell damage setting turned on? (could be a bug)
Also, are you entering your hit % into the sim including your 9% from talents? If you only enter what your actual rating from gear is I could maybe see the sim saying "whoah this guy needs hit rating bad."
#5543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
I've been an avid theorycrafter but lately I've begun to notice something odd.

While putting in my stats in Yo!'s sim and I allways seem to get absurdly high AEP values for Hit rating.

The stats in question: (totally unbuffed, not even totems, kings not added either)
1636 AP 30,1% crit, 6,53% hit (103 rating), 4,31% haste, 175 ArP, Dragonstrike + Rod of the Sun King and Ashtongue trinket (see armory link..)
In the buff section I assumed BoM, MotW, SoE, a flask and +20str Food)

The gear is mostly MH/BT gear with some residual t4/5 items.

The AEP values I get are:

AP: 1
Crit: 2.21
Hit: 3.88
Haste: 1.8
Agi: 1.95

Whilst all stats appear to be reasonably within bounds of the suggested AEP values of the first post the hit rating jumps out considerably. So either I am messing up with the input, the sim is wrong or hit rating does increasingly become more valuable as the other stats go up (which doesn't sound all that illogical actually).

Do other "end-game" shamans get similar results?
I don't. Hit is either on the same level or a tiny(.05-.1) better than the 2ish that crit/str/agi/haste for valued me.
#5544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Disquette
Just a random thought I had on the drive home from work, brought about from the fact that I wanted to justify using the [Brooch of Deftness] instead of [Pendant of the Perilous]. (and yes, I know that's a horrible thing to do - start with a conclusion and then build support for it :p ).

Anyway, expertise is a smidge better than we have it listed now because of the stormstrike bug. To illustrate, take the following reductio ad absurdum example in which a mob has a 50% chance to dodge you.

Assume:
50% will be dodge/parry
main hand and offhand have same weapon. MH averages 2dmg, so OH averages exactly 1dmg.

Thought experiment:
swing 100 times. How much damage will you do?

50 Main hand stormstrikes will land for a total of 100 damage
of the 50 MH hits, 50% of the OH SS's will also be dodged, so you will do 2 * 50 * 50% * 50% (OH penalty and dodges) = 25 damage.
For a grand total of 125 damage.

Note that if you had no dodge/parries, this would be 2 * 100 + 1 * 100 = 300 damage.

Because of the stormstrike bug in which the OH only swings if the MH lands, increasing expertise has a "coefficient-greater-than-(1+critRate)" effect on yellow damage compared to white.

Does it matter much? Meh, not really, but in the interest of completeness I figured I'd throw this out there as another "shaman mechanics are pretty screwed up" note. It's probably something like .01 or .02 additional value we should assign to the expertise rating, which is beyond the rounding most people use anyway.

Last edited by Disquette : 12/12/07 at 9:11 AM.
#5545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
The idea is not that far fetched, Disquette. Me and my resto kin are gathering heavy haste and +heal gear alongside "normal" +heal/mp5 gear for when we have the need for insane HPS or if we have a shadow priest to suck mana from. Potentially there could be fights where a boss had some parry/dodge bonus where AEP values would differ a lot from the norm. Food for thought.
#5546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Negative, check attempt #9 in the first 5 minutes of the fight, and he's meleeing on Capernian in Phase 1, and that attempt goes well into Phase 4.
Eww.

Yeah, I missed that. I just checked the Capernian deaths and went back a bit. I guess I've never actually tried to melee Capernian when I wasn't trying to speed up a wipe, but I just assumed that he wouldn't be able to do it and live.
#5547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ambika
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
Have your shaman tank the staff, not the mace. The mace hits for almost 1k more from what I remember. The staff is easily tankable without a shield and just full burning it with late-cast interrupts.
this is what our guild does for Kael. We shove the shaman to help the warrior pull the staff down and handle interupts. From there he does nothing but beat on stuff with full dps gear on for the rest of the fight.

Then again we run with 4 tanks+1 dps warrior who throws on a shield for part of that fight to 'tank'.


Don't grab any of the weapons. The dagger is a dps drop, and you hurt people a lot more when dispelling MC then a rogue or warrior would. The axe gives some big numbers and isn't better then normal DW.
once phase 4 hits it's all the other warrior/rogues job to run around stabby stabby the mind controlled people. Let the enhancement shaman burn full bore on kael+eggs. If you have spare shamans have them throw down earthbind to slow other folks down (might work, just thought of it now). Let those with intercept/sprint/stuns handle the MC folks. Might cut into their dps but rogues>shamans for this thing as the dagger will more than likely be a weapon they choose instead of one for the shaman which is a big downgrade.
#5548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
You have a shaman who's out-damaging ALL of your rogues, a guy who never once died early and you're wondering if he's pulling his weight?

Yeah, his numbers seem a little low, but damn, you want to work with this guy. He's obviously a good player.
#5549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Originally Posted by Acks View Post
Is Grimgrin really this bad? I calculated the AEP values and it seems like its one of the best options in the game. Certainly better than T4 or the Coif, no?

I suppose the real question is: What is a good estimate for AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond given T5ish gear? If its not over 50, then the Grimgrin is even better than T6 according to my (probably horribly wrong) math.
Ignoring the RED, Grimgrin Faceguard is slighty worse than Forest Prowler's Helm and slighty better than Skyshatter Cover and Coif of the Jungle Stalker.

But just tell us what's your EP for? I use a regulary a "2,2 Str 2 Agi 0 Stam 0 Int 2 Crit 2 Hit 1 AP 2 Haste 0,3 Arp" string for comparison and all sockets are epic.

Using lower assumptions will not bring such a different result that it's worth considering Grimgrin Faceguard.

RED should be anywhere between 40-80 score points. With "2,2 Str 1,5 Agi 0 Stam 0 Int 1,5 Crit 1,4 Hit 1 Ap1,5 Haste 0,25 Arp" the score difference between T4 and the ugly leather mask is ~ 65 for rare gems.

And please notice that you should substract between 0,1 and 0,2 from the non-ap/str values to simulate the worth of your Mental Agility Talent.
#5550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0adversary
should i trade in my double syphon maces for the new season 3 weapons?
#5551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Fola
Originally Posted by adversary View Post
should i trade in my double syphon maces for the new season 3 weapons?

I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.

Last edited by Fola : 12/12/07 at 2:16 PM. Reason: spelling
#5552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mengus
Note, [Deathblow X11 Goggles] are not an option for Shaman, as Mail wearing engineers can only make the MAIL items

Last edited by Mengus : 12/12/07 at 4:05 PM.
#5553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nemaa
Originally Posted by Fola View Post
I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.
DW Syphon's proc damage is about 3000-4000 damage on an 5 minute fight. It isn't a considerable amount of damage.

edit:
Log from today's ~3 minute Teron fight 2315 damage

Last edited by Nemaa : 12/12/07 at 4:50 PM.
#5554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
#5555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
#5556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by spanko View Post
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
Add 150 to your AP for [Berserker's Call] and [Band of the Eternal Champion]'s passive proc is about 26.6 AP, add it as well to your ap.

Yo: Thanks for the update!
#5557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0adversary
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Use the simulator and see if it's an upgrade? Christ. You don't even deserve those weapons...
i think i deserve my double syphons more than someone that is dumb enough to use the 40 critical strike trinket, rather than the 80 atk power trinket for pvp. :P

but anyway i think im going to probably do MH syphon and OH s3
#5558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Ok the Wiki is supposedly going live on Monday. The wiki article that I labored on months ago is horribly out of date and I really don't feel like bringing it back in line with this thread. So I'm going to just copy this over it and change everything over to the wiki format.

That said, I need to know how people feel about things, whether I should move/rearrange content around to flow better. Basically do things make sense organizationally?

Also note that over in the wiki I will have Moderator status and can delete stupid posts.
#5559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Awesome! Thanks Yo!
#5560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Oscarwilde
I'm interested in validating some AEP results from Yo's simulator for my shaman. as a reference, here are his stats:

Power
1322
Hit Rating:
134
Crit Chance:
26.61%
Expertise:
0

armory: The World of Warcraft Armory


what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.

cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP? IE: am I reading/using the numbers right, or not taking into account the value of crit through flurry and UR ? :P

Last edited by Oscarwilde : 12/12/07 at 6:35 PM.
#5561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
#5562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
I'm only getting a 1 dps (mongoose > executioner) difference with 399 armor pen on a 3690 armor mob(7700-800-610-2600). When I switch my ring/trinket out for more optimum ones executioner takes the lead by 1 dps.
#5563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Yo,

Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
And perhaps the new badge totem aswell?
And ofcourse thanks for the update

@ Oscarwilde: Its in the nature of %'s to scale. So the more AP you get the more valuable crit, hit, expertise, armor penetration (reduces enemy damage migitation by a % depending on its current armor) will become.
2k AP unbuffed will be quite high I recon, even in BT gear. However in a raid you can add a huge portion to that from raid buffs, procs, consumables and ofcourse your own str totem .
#5564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
#5565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Oscarwilde View Post
what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.
This is not surprising. AP/Strength has consistently been one of the best uses of item budget for enhancement shamans. Patch 2.3 only improved the value of AP/Strength by making it affect our shocks as well as our melee damage. While the 2.2 version of Yo's sim told me that without BoK, crit rating was superior to strength, the 2.3 version is telling me that strength is superior even without BoK.
cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP?
Run both numbers through the sim, find out which has higher DPS. Evaluate upgrades using EP numbers the sim gives. As your gear improves, I would expect you to reach about 1600 AP and 30% crit, at which point you'll start seeing crit rating and haste rating being nearly as good as Strength.
#5566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Great to see you're back in action. Thanks for this latest update. I'll make a couple functionality requests in order of importance to me:
1) Support expertise/expertise rating, both in DPS calculation and EP calculation. (When you do, I'd enjoy some commentary on how you're calculating EP as well.)
2) Allow people to select the number of talent points in Reverberation, Concussion, and Elemental Devastation.
3) Add Stonebreaker's Totem to the totem selection options. (Yes, we could just manually add 35 AP to our AP, but I'd rather use the interface.)
4) UI clean-up. This is the least exciting task probably. I'd suggest going to something like this:
Tab 1: "Stats & EP Values"
Tab 2: "Enchants & Procs" (move shocks/min to Tab 1 and move Talents to its own tab)
Tab 3: "Talents"
Tab 4: "Buffs & Debuffs" (allow us to set boss debuffs such as CoR, FF, SA on this page... probably move Boss Armor input here too, though I'm not 100% sure what makes the most sense from a design standpoint)
Tab 5: "Import/Export"
Tab 6: "Forensic Report"

Obviously, any improvements you're able to make are always welcome, and thanks again for your service to the community.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
Technically, this only works nicely for the AP use trinkets... for Abacus, you'd want to take the haste percentage over time and add it as a static value. Not a really big deal though. Definitely at the bottom of my feature request list.
#5567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Edit: Posted one too many times. Delete.
#5568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
There must be a bug in the UR calculations. Disabling it, only decreases my DPS by a small value. I discovered it a few days ago, before the new version, but it hasn't changed.

I used following values for the simulation (5000 hrs):

Stats top to bottom: 1700, 32, 21, 2, 4000, 250, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 3, 6
Procs: Dual Windfury and Mongoose, DST and Tsunami, no Totem, T6 4pc, no shocks
Buffs: Default with no Potion and active Battleshout

With UR I get 1331 DPS, without 1324. If I manually add 200 AP it results in 1392 DPS.

Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented.
#5569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.

Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim.
#5570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Malan
How are they calculating that stuff?
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas
There's the page with their formulas.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but look this bit from the Windfury DPS code.
$procRate = ((1/$MHspeed)+(1/$OHspeed))*.20;
For 2x 2.6 weapons that means $procRate = 0.1538, which doesn't seem right.

[e] Ok I sent the site author an email and asked him to post here explaining how his system works. Its quite clear that he's not doing a combat simulation but his item rankings are *spot on* with what Yo's sim is giving me.
[e2] If this is really as accurate as it *seems* to be at first glance, this guy has discovered some magical formulas that might actually enable us to just use a spreadsheet instead of a sim.

Last edited by Malan : 12/13/07 at 9:06 AM.
#5571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
That sim seems to be undervaluing armor penetration, to me. Anyone else noticed this as well?
#5572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Armor Pen on it looks fine to me, its saying with my stats that 10 armor penetration is a 7 DPS increase, which is much more than any of the other stats it shows. The item lists line up almost exactly with what my simulator EP values give.
#5573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Xoya
That's 100 armor pentetration, not 10.. when I divide the numbers out for my gear, I get:

1 str = .615; 1 armor pen = .0738

If we extrapolate into EP, where 1 str = 2.2, then armor pen = 0.264.

For comparison, my numbers are what's on my Armory profile:

1560 AP, 118 HR, 31.48 crit, 37 haste, 3500 boss armor, 168 armor pen, 0 expertise rating, and 468 magic damage, with everything but Totem of the Astral Winds checked.

Edit to add: in addition, if I increase my armor penetration to 1000, then armor pen becomes worth 0.28 relative to strength.

Last edited by Xoya : 12/13/07 at 10:32 AM.
#5574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Well note that the MaxDPS page is using 3500 as the default boss armor but Yo has it set to 4400, so the comparison might be off from that too.
#5575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
The main problem I've found with armor pen on maxdps is that it doesnt increase dmg from more armor pen based on how much armor pen you already have. So even if you get the boss to 0 armor, armor pen is still worth the same as having him at 3500 armor. Its just a static value based off your other stats.
#5626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it? Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds?
#5627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?

I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.
#5628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
xkaziex
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference.

As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights.
Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul.

It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while.

Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though)


I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.

Last edited by xkaziex : 12/14/07 at 11:10 AM.
#5629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Gruul is a terrible test fight. Even if all you do is dps, with all that running, avoiding cave ins, trying to stay below the second tank, you're never going to be doing your best.

You want to test your DPS, go to the bear boss in ZA, go to Kara and beat on Attumen. High armor, high health, pretty much tank & spank. A big sample set smooths out strings of luck.

By the by, I'm down to 63 hit rating, 28% crit, 1464 AP. JUST NOW is hit rating approaching the value of crit rating on Yo's (1.58 vs 1.64). I miss all the time and my rogues laugh at me. The ones who out damage me, anyway.
#5630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by rava View Post
As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing).
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.

[e] Grr just realised the shoulders are BoP LWer.. thought they were same as the bracers .. Oh well that screws that plan guess I'll stick with the T6!

Last edited by Mox : 12/14/07 at 2:11 PM.
#5631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Areus
Malan: From what Yo! posted earlier I believe he said the Executioner was the same procrate as Mongoose.

From my own experiance with +hit, I run around 90HR+talents, its nice to have, but only if you dont sacrifice anything else to get it. You will almost ALWAYS see better returns when adding AP/Crit/Armor pen to your gear. From the melee group that my guild runs, we are ussually the top5 for damage and I fall in there under the rogues right with the furywar and retpally and I miss a good percent of the time. If the gear would allow me to get more +hit I have no doubt that enh shaman would own on damage.

Another good baseline for DPS/Damage is if your guild is Morogrim if your guiild is still running SSC. While the water tombing can get annoying at times, it is a pretty static tank and spank type of fight that can allow for gear comparissons week-to-week if you are keeping logs of your damage done.
#5632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
#5633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by xkaziex View Post
a lot more words
Without some WWS I'm skeptical to believe that composition is the same, dps time was the same, and that the fight length was the same(read: the longer a fight goes the less dps you do). You may not click on Mag but that doesn't alter the fact that banished time varies and quakes throwing you everywhere. With Gruul you deal with cave ins, slams, silences, and a much higher threat cap; I stand by my original statement that these are terrible fights for DPS samples.

The best thing I can suggest is to run combatlog and upload WWS to get a better idea or look at your DPS in relation to your raid if it is as consistent as you say. Until blizzard puts in a +3 fully debuffed unlimited hp dummy that doesn't move sims are the best because of their controlled environment.
#5634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
#5635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by xkaziex View Post
if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.
Actually, a quick run on the simulator shows that the value of hit rating DECREASES relative to other stats as your attack power decreases. It isn't by much.

Look, just know your stat weights. I can't stress this enough. Knowing how much each stat is worth compared to others allows you to quickly evaluate gear, find out which upgrades offer the biggest bang for the DKP and not waste your time grinding useless stuff.

Being an Enhancer is easy. If a piece is an upgrade, it's an upgrade. There's no magic levels to maintain. No need to shift gems around. Just know your stat levels and you're good to go.
#5636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Skwat
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|

Last edited by Skwat : 12/14/07 at 6:41 PM.
#5637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Skwat View Post
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
#5638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
Well, you can't NOT get 100+ hit rating if you are getting the best shaman gear available...

I'm at (with kings) 1866 AP/34.18% crit/19.91% hit/301 AI, with procs active I'm riding 3k+ AP/40% crit in raids... at that point hitting becomes ALOT more valuable to me than an extra 20 or 30 AP that I could have had from other gear choices.

Last edited by Mox : 12/15/07 at 12:57 PM.
#5639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skwat
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
I may be wrong, but the discussion was about getting more AP or Hit, so my point was just to get both if you want to. Of course you won't be able to have everything. I wasn't here to tell you what is the best stuff.
And for the template, it was just a test. I read this topic and i know that enh/resto is still the best template, but again it was not what i wanted to talk about.
Sorry for that poor reply, won't happen again.
#5640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
#5641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
He said can't not, meaning that with the best gear you will have over 100 hit.

@Skwat: Apologies, but to me it was someone I've never seen linking a ctprofile of a shaman with t6 equiv gear when the discussion was about dropping AP for Hit. I do realize that you had good intentions, however.
#5642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
to
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
Add the x's back into latex
#5643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
A few things about this set;

Most of TBC bosses in this game have major raid-wide damage, and with no CloS/Evasion/Sprint/exploits I am very wary of items with zero stamina on them. Thus I don't plan to pick up boneweave girdle/supremus neck until noone else in the raid needs it.
I also don't see myself getting the S3 Arena Weapons for...well...lets just say a long time...
From the simulations ive run at least right now, berserker's call is > madness of the betrayer (I particularly like it because it can be used simultaneously with Shamanistic Rage).

You are right though, I hadn't really looked at the final hit rating of my optimal set but I was just surprised how low my hit had actually fallen (when I replaced my S2 arena weapons with Syphons, and a few other changes) and overlooked a few things ill be picking up even within the immediate future to pump my hit back up.
#5644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Quigon View Post
LaTeX stuff
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
#5645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Problem actually is Malan instead showing formula atm it just shows notice Latex failed.
#5646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
That's because I haven't fixed it yet.
#5647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
For all of my equations that was the only fix.

Here is your last change:

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

I guess it parses out carriage returns as /br(reaks). Also your right parenthesis was off, just copy and paste that line.
It gets hectic without white space now, some of my latex codes for the calculus section on armor returns are 3 solid lines of characters. Better here than a PM though - perhaps it'll help another person with latex in their posts.
#5648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Courn
To miss or not to miss

Hello @ all,


newly signed in, a few minutes ago. Thank you for the information in this thread. Nice work! Frees me from some misunderstandings.

I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-)

As far, as I can tell my Recount addon says my miss numbers are reading under 10 % against lvl 70-71 normal mobs when in melee. I'm partially PvP (Veteran-Non-Set-Epics), Arena and T4 equipped and do know, that a DWing Enhancer has a base chance of 24 % of missing.

Further, I can provide some Webstats of our tries against the 'Leerhäscher' at The Eye.
at url: Courn - WWS

So my question in this matter is, does my leader read and interprete his numbers correct?
Is there a magical miss-percentage for any Enhancer out there to keep his misses below?

Some stats unbuffed: AP 1258, hit rating 86, Crit 27,21%

If you need additional information, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
#5649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tambard
I have the Cataclysm Helm, and I recently picked up Coif of the Jungle Stalker, which all AEP weights say is about 8AEP better (assuming you're valuing hit at 1.4). But when I put it into simulators, no matter what buffs I add or remove, the Cataclysm Helm comes out ahead. Now, I noticed I don't have a set value for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, so my question is...

According to Rogues I've spoken to, their AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm is 42. And I know that it varies by crit rate, but with an approximation of 30% crit, what would the AEP from this metagem be? I was thinking of taking their AEP and subtracting the 12 AP they get out of the AGI on it and valuing it at 30, but I wasn't sure if anyone had posted a more accurate way to value it that I had missed. Thanks for reading and for the thread as a whole!
#5650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Scan back a few pages and you'll see the discussion I had about this as well. You need almost a 60-80 EP upgrade before the meta gem can be phased out. Basically if you already have a meta gem helm, there's no way to replace it with a non meta gem helm.

Quigon, thanks mate!
#5751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?
10k is just the standard we use in this thread. Yo! suggested a while back in it using 10k hours anytime you calculate EPs. 1k is the minimum for somewhat reliable results but will still vary from run to run. 10k is stable from run to run.
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
You need to add the impact of BoK to your AP and Crit. Since Yo's sim doesn't have fields for STR and AGI, you must add 0.2*STR to AP and AGI/250 to crit %.
#5752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
Ok, say i have 3 weapons.

60 dps, 2.5 spd (A)
62 dps, 2.3 spd (B)
85 dps, 1.8 spd (C)


Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.)

I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
#5753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
#5754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:

swords rogue
daggers rogue
mm hunter
bm hunter

Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal)

a) GoA
b) WF
c) who cares?

In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party
#5755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it.
The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on.

You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues.
I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting.
#5756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
#5757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by alexandertheti View Post
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
Windfury always outperforms Flametongue on your main hand weapon and you should never have a dagger there. Windfury almost always outperforms Flametongue on your off hand weapon (you'd need huge amounts of AP and a faster-than-1.8s dagger to change that).

I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded.

Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 10:16 AM. Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks.
#5758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
@Toots

I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS.

As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges.

Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time.
#5759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
#5760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draegan
Armory Links and/or WWS Links

I'm looking for Armory and WWS links for Heroic/T4 Geared enhancement Shamans and T5 Geared enhancement Shamans for comparison.

If anyone could take the time to PM your own links, I'd appreciate it. Thank you in advance.
#5761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by alexandertheti View Post
I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination.
Any Boss NPC is going to have a 10% higher resist (or more) rate than anything you just listed here, which makes any "sort of close" comparison go to "Windfury is better".
#5762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Yeah I was just wanting to get a bit more accuracy because our last Teron I was over 1700dps while Yo's! sim put me around 1500.
#5763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Int deserves a small EP value

I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.

I have been treating Int and Stam as secondary stats for the last month, with the result that I'm picking up more ZA and badge leather gear to replace my mail. (I'm keeping the mail in case Bliz fixes itemization later in some way.) But I've realized that Int does have a quantifiable impact on DPS: It increases spell crit %age.

Therefore, it's easy to see what Int EP should be... But since I don't have the Int-> crit or crit multiplier numbers handy I'll leave it to someone who does.

I'm not sure this will change anything significantly since IIRC shock dps is around 10% of your overall dps in most fights, give or take, but it might make it clearer that a certain mail item was actually not worth "upgrading" to a comparable leather item, for example.
#5764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Inamorata
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.
A little fast math, probably off by a little but will give you a picture. 80 int = 1% spell crit.
1% spellcrit ~0.5% more shockdamage.(probably less due to flame shock gaining so little)
0.5% more damage from shocks is roughly 0.05% more overall damage.
So you need 20% spellcrit to gain 1% damage. 20% spellcrit = 80*20 = 1600 intellect.
20 melee crit rating will also roughly increase damage by 1%.
If we have 1 Crit rating at 2 aep 1 intellect would be 0.025 (2/80) aep.

Even if my numbers probably is off you can see that intellects value is extremely low and you need 40 intellect to get the same increase in damage as 1 ap.
#5765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
We get 0.0125% spell crit/1 intellect. (I derived this by comparing the difference in spell crit and intellect between my PvP and PvE sets.) Our spells crit for 150% and not 200%, and the DoT portion of Flame Shock does not crit. With self buffs you've got about 500 +damage/heal, and a base value of 661-696 for Earth Shock which has a 43% coefficient and 377 for the direct damage of Flame Shock with a 15% coefficient for the direct damage. Let's suppose raid buffs take you up to 650 damage/heal. I am too lazy to consider Misery and Scorch so somebody else can do that if they want. If they do, they had better also factor in resists (spells should be two-roll, so a crit spell can be resisted. At least shocks are binary resist so you don't have to worry about partials...)

1% crit would give you an extra 0.01*0.5*((661+696)/2+650*0.43)/12 seconds = 0.005*(678.5+279.5)/12 = 0.399 DPS on Earth Shock and 0.01*0.5*(377+650*.15)/12 seconds = 0.005*(377+97.5)/12 = 0.198 DPS on Flame Shock. Let's call that 0.6 DPS in all for 1% crit. 0.0125% crit/Int*0.6 DPS/1% crit = 0.0075 DPS/Int. If we say 4 AP = 1 DPS then Int gets an EP of 0.03. An item with 40 int gets an extra 1.2 EP.

In other words, we don't really need to take Int into consideration. (It's nice to see that the previous poster, using a different methodology, comes up with a similar solution.)

Last edited by Rob : 12/20/07 at 8:11 PM.
#5766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
that someone came up with the same solution is simply due to the fact that the value is so small ist does not make any difference. 0.025 / 0.030 is a 20% diversion. ^^ I mean a 20% difference in anything like maybe crit or so would result in anything between 1.6 and 2.4 for crit rating. Thats the sole reason 8)
#5767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tristan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
If you are expecting BoK you should run the sim with BoK to get proper numbers.

Yo! has kindly made the values in the import string un-BoKed again for me to use in Enhancer so I can display both with and without BoK.
#5768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ardonomus
Don't know if you still want WWS parses, regardless, here's two!

Kael + first three in Hyjal
Wow Web Stats

First four in BT
Wow Web Stats

I don't think they'll be up for long though, since we're doing it the easy way with WWS 2.
#5769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
#5770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Gnus View Post
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.

Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.

Last edited by Stopokingme : 12/21/07 at 7:41 AM.
#5771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Crit cap for me - when 100% attacks are flurried. Maybe i'm wrong.
Question is about yellow sockets, for example my new T6 shoulders have only yellow sockets, so 10str gems are not good due to socket bonus.
#5772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
You don't have to go after the socketting bonus if you don't want to.

For T6 shoulders, it boils down to knowing whether 20 STR is better than 13 STR & 10 CR.

I guess it's another way of saying "convert both stats into EP, using the coefficients Yo!'s simulator gave you, and go with the highest EP benefit" ?

The only reason I could see that "forces" you to socket a gem-color that gives you lower EP values would be metagems activation.
#5773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
You can forget about getting 100% of your attacks flurried, the only real way of that happening is having a 100% crit rate. And yes, replace those 10 crit with 5 str and 5 crit, they're superior. Your gem choices for sockets should always be (if you want socket bonuses that is) Red: 10 str, Yellow: 5 str 5crit, Blue: 5 str 7 sta. The only exception to my knowledge being the jewelcrafting only 12 crit gem, which comes out superior to 10 strength.
#5774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
What do you guys think about talon of the phoenix?its a nice weapon and i thought about ''breaking the rules'',so i use it with rising tide for OH.I am satisfied by my DPS its over 1k in most of the boss fights.i use exe/mongoose for that combo,and i would like to know if mongoose x2 is a better enchant for this weapon combo.Thanks in advance.
#5775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Press009
I have been searching through this thread for a while and I still haven't really seen it mentioned yet. Is there a difference when starting out in a entry lvl raid enviroment, when selecting between the gladiator's axe/mace for MH compared to the glad's MH first wep? Since the stats (EP) are the same, and the only true difference is dmg output/gap on the high and low ends of the wep. Is it just a personal choice of choosing which one I like better or does it make a huge difference in the long run?

Last edited by Press009 : 12/21/07 at 12:21 PM.
#6076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grzzt
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Grzzt -- you have encountered my only problem with Yo's sim, which is that it requires Java 1.6.
Ahh, ok, thanks for the clarification! Unfortunately I'm stuck on OS X 10.4 for the foreseeable future. The weird thing is that the "Windows" build I was trying was actually Parallels. My image does indeed have Java 1.6 installed, but Yo's site still doesn't work, so I'm assuming it's some weirdness with Parallels.

In any case, I can run the site just fine on a genuine Windows box. Thanks!
#6077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fearlezz
I think we should wait till 2.4 when Blizz is gonna chance combat log mechanics so we can include totems in our damage too. But still, even now as enhc/restro spec shocks are around 10% of my damage (average, varies from 8-12% depending on the fight, really have no idea about my totem damage)
#6078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
The proc is just for kicks I guess. It did like 5,000 dmg over a full hyjal clear I think, its not a big deal. The syphons and rising tide have higher DPS though, raising the average damage done.
Sorry to resurrect this post, but I've been curious about the Syphon proc since I won this mace. I sometimes see procs for up to 42 leeched HP. I know it is shadow damage and thus buffed by shadoweaving, misery, etc, but 42? Thats more than 2x the original proc.

Here's our WWS from last night: Gnipgnop - WWS (please don't freak out at my dps. I completely overhauled my UI and it was a lot more difficult to manage than I anticipated :P)
#6079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Comments on WoWHead indicate it's a 20dmg proc, effected by debuffs.
Your averages were 24 on Trash, 25 on Supremus and Teron, 26 on High Warlord, and a whopping 35 on Shade.

I am guessing that you hit the 42 on somewhere Shade, and that the proc can crit, getting +50% of the effect damage. That's where the 42 came from, probably a 34dmg proc that crit.
#6080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
About Elemental spec....

I didnt find any satisfying reasons as to why Ele/Enh is worse than Resto/Enh.

Asuming just from the Enhance tree w/o any other points spend:
white dmg 40%
WF 35%
SS 15%
Shocks 10%

Restotree: +3 hit to melee/spells:
40% * 1,03 = 41,2% (the hit will increase the white dmg for about 3%)
35% * (1+(0,8*0,03) = 35,84% (about every fifth hit is from SS, so we have 2,4% more hits to procc WF)
15% = 15% (SS is capped w/o restotree)
10% * 1,03 = 10,3% (Shocks will hit 3% more)

41,2+35,84+15+10,3= 102,34% compared to nothing but Enh-tree


Eletree: +5% shockdmg, *20% faster CD
90% will be unchanced
10% *1,05*1,2=12,6

90% +12,6= 102,6% compared to only Enh-tree.

If you factor crit in both examples (which I'm to lazy for, since point is proven fr me now), the impact of crit will lessen even more, since in a one-roll system it wont raise the dps by one 1%.


Please prove me wrong, or help me to find a post in this overly huge thread which shows me better math (than my bad try at it).
#6081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Please take the Elem vs Resto discussion to the newly created thread for that purpose. That way we can restrict such discussion there so that people actually have a searchable/readable reference point for it.
#6082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
#6083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge View Post
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
Swapping totems causes global cooldown as well as swing time reset (This one im not sure), so it may actually be counterproductive
#6084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
Equipping relics doesn't trigger the GCD indicator on Quartz, but I did notice there was a pause when trying this out (equipping Totem of Healing Rains for Chain Heal). It's definitely a full GCD and swing reset then?

Spamming SS/Shock buttons a second before cooldowns are up would resolve that to some extent. But it depends how much GCD juggling you're doing at the time I suppose.
#6085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge View Post
Equipping relics doesn't trigger the GCD indicator on Quartz, but I did notice there was a pause when trying this out (equipping Totem of Healing Rains for Chain Heal). Spamming SS/Shock buttons a second before cooldowns are up would resolve that to some extent. But it depends how much GCD juggling you're doing at the time I suppose.
Swapping relics works quite well for spell casting when there is a cast time involved (healing spells), but relic swapping doesn't work with instant casts in my experience.
#6086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aknazer
Something I just noticed is that if my attacks land at the same time and neither crits then it only eats 1 flurry charge. Also if only 1 crits then it refreshes flurry to 3 and the other attack doesn't eat a charge (generally its assumed that when both hit at the same time the first attack is registered first, followed by the OH. Here if the MH crit the OH doesn't eat a flurry charge even though it's after the crit). Although if you manage to get your attacks to land at different times (I'm not exactly sure how it happens, but sometimes my attacks get out of synch even with same speed weapons) then it starts eating flurry charges normally.

Has anyone else noticed this behavior?
#6087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0mek
Yes, it's a well-known flurry bug (or "feature", it's been around a long time). As you've noticed it's difficult to control so it's hard to value the dps increase, but it is there.
#6088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Blazingwater
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
#6089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by testthewest View Post
Please prove me wrong, or help me to find a post in this overly huge thread which shows me better math (than my bad try at it).
Prove it yourself for once. I've seen this question talked about at least five times in the thread. As you can imagine, most of the discussion would be near the part of the thread when we received talent changes.
#6090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
Nope, still there. Is said to be scheduled for a fix in a "future" patch. T_T
#6091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Urstroyer
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge View Post
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
You can switch the item in relict slot while casting a spell and works well for healing spells from my experience. Have anyone tried this already? Does the Stonebreaker Totem AP Buff stay if you switch back to Totem of Astral Winds and is the weapon swing timer affected?
#6092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Redback
You should probably add a mention of Lootrank - Its basically an updated version of Lootzor, with support for haste, expertise, and it doesn't seem to have lootzors irritating bugs, like gems that don't exist.
#6093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2mek
Originally Posted by Urstroyer View Post
You can switch the item in relict slot while casting a spell and works well for healing spells from my experience. Have anyone tried this already? Does the Stonebreaker Totem AP Buff stay if you switch back to Totem of Astral Winds and is the weapon swing timer affected?
Any buff generated by an equipped item will be removed when that item is removed.
#6094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Simian LeSinge
Originally Posted by mek View Post
Any buff generated by an equipped item will be removed when that item is removed.
Not true. Tested that with Stonebreaker's yesterday. Why attempt to shoot down ideas with incorrect assumptions?

edit - at least, the buff remained shown on the Blizz UI after switching Stonebreaker's out. Possibly the pic was there and the AP removed, I didn't check, but that doesn't sound right.

Double edit - Looking at the Feral druid thread stuff about switching relic slots, it looks like the swing timer reset would be the main issue with this. Does switching totem definitely reset swing timer? If so then it's likely david0259 is correct in saying it could well be counter-productive. Aw well, at least I won't have to farm mana tombs.

Last edited by Simian LeSinge : 01/08/08 at 12:05 PM.
#6095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mox
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
I was pretty bored while clearing hyjal earlier in the week so watched my flurry buff for awhile and saw it tick down to 1 then back upto 3 on multiple occasions, don't have any logs though so could have been lag/multiple hits very close together.
#6096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Disquette
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.
#6097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
I was pretty bored while clearing hyjal earlier in the week so watched my flurry buff for awhile and saw it tick down to 1 then back upto 3 on multiple occasions, don't have any logs though so could have been lag/multiple hits very close together.
I checked it out just today in ZA and it was still bugging for me. Crit on the last charge did not refresh Flurry T_T.
#6098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
I know I've said this in this thread...

Equipping a totem will trigger the GCD, but does not depend on the GCD. This means that a macro like so:
/cast Healing Wave
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
Will result in a Healing Wave, cast with the benefit of Totem of Healing Rains with one button. However:
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
/cast Healing Wave
Will equip the totem, trigger the GCD, and prevent Healing Wave from being cast.

Making a macro like this:
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
/cast Flame Shock
Will not work.

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
#6099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Redback
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.

Admittedly I had never used your mod before today, but I installed the new version and it seems to work fine.
#6100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2cerberos
Hello all,

I pretty confused as the last days 2 very good drops, dropped for me

At first, we did a Zul Aman Raid and dropped [Fury]. I put on it Executioner and have it. Then some hous ago, we did a farm raid on Al'ar, and [Netherbane] dropped. I couldnt leave it so i took it too...
Now my other weapon, is [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]. On it i have Mongoose.

As i read in the first post, Merciless > Fury. So according to first post, i have to use Merciless + Netherbane as offhand. Is that true really? I am pretty confused of what weapons to play, from these 3

Ps

Some say that having executioner in Offhand, is not so good. Do u agree on this statement? As Netherbane have executioner and merciless Mongoose.

Ty in advance, ok i dont complain they are very good loots for my level atm, (although the dkp cost is enormous !!)
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2automatica
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS
Works fine for me.
#6202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ChaguraED
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS

this is the template I used Loot Rank Forums :: View topic - [template] - Enhancement Shamans
I found that installing the latest version of Java solved this problem. It may help you out too.
#6203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
You are correct and not your guild mates. Not only is Mask of the Deceiver better than T4, the quest reward Helm of the Claw is better as well. Regarding the gloves, you are also correct. T4 is comparatively worse than many other items available.
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
#6204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2lizard
alrite so im veryvery sorry if the following question has been asked already but i didnt have the patience to search through the entire thread. my question is the following:

if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all.
#6205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
+ 12 AP for each rogue & cat
actually its about 30 AP for a cat, so many people do know so little about Druids, they also get 2 AP from 1 Str but with talents they can push that to about 2,47 ...
#6206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Jumbotron
I suppose I have a terribly noobish question, but I could really use some help.

I'm starting to accumulate some T5-level gear and Yo's calculator is valuing hit rating at 1.98 EP, yet according to this thread and my current understanding of enhancement shaman, hit rating should be a less valuable stat. Should I continue to gear and gem according to Yo's calculator or is something amiss?

My current unbuffed stats are 1448ap, 27.22% crit, 8 expertise(not rating), 138 hit rating, 30 haste rating and 168 armor penetration.
#6207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Nothing is amiss. All that is being said is "don't go out of your way to get +Hit." Ever seen a rogue get a new item? He has to juggle gems and old gear around to make room for it to make sure he's not dropping too much +Hit. We're saying that you don't need to worry about that. Don't gem for it, don't go replacing items that have less AP/Crit but have more Hit. Its still valuable, its just not a priority.
#6208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mbuzi
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.

Q: What stats do I need to input?
A: Stats from your paperdoll when out of raid buffs. That is stats from gear + "naked" stats + stats from talents. Use buffs page to select your buffs. The exception is Blessing of Kings (if you expect it) - you need both to input your paperdoll stats increased by 10% and turn BoK "on" on buffs tab. If some buffs are missing - input them directly to stats. Boss armor - reduced by all expected debuffs.
#6209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blargenheim
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
#6210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Illundai
Is getting a decent group an option? If not, twist totems :P.

On a serious note, I'd drop WF I think.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/14/08 at 9:38 PM.
#6211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2iah
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
#6212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
Another thing to remember is our 'Enhancing totems' talent, which put the bonus to an effective +14 STR, making it even more valuable
#6213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
#6214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
Top end just means you get the occassional big hit, always consider the average hit before you look at top end. Put the one with higher average hit in the mainhand, in this case it's Pummeler (237 average hit) mainhand and Bane (227.5 average hit) offhand.

More than for not running the sim, you deserve a /bonk for bringing up an age old Rogue myth.
#6215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Blargenheim View Post
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
#6216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Illundai
Originally Posted by iah View Post
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?

Edit: If Mutilate really ends up closer than it used to do, I stand corrected - I only read the first few pages on most Rogue threads and there the conclusion was that it was ~200 dps less than Combat Daggers.
By the way, personally I'd twist my ass off in a group like that, due to it's uncommon nature - get the best of both worlds T_T.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/15/08 at 8:08 AM.
#6217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
panny
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?
Can we not jump to Official WoW forums vitriol here? From the threads around here, Mutilate is comparable to combat daggers and not far behind combat swords. Anyway, Mutilate does gain from WF (it's better than IP or DP) but it's a marginal gain. In that particular group, given equal skill/gear, I would use GoA.



I tanked heroic SV the other week but forgot to post my report in here. Anyway, I did it with using mostly PvP gear. In Vindicator's PvP gear, 3 pieces of Vengeful Gladiator's and a Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall, I have 12.2k health and 11k armour. Adding in a food buff and Kings, I have 13.3k health and am crit immune from resilence. Since I was constantly being hit, Water Shield meant that I had infinite mana and so instead of using Shamanistic Rage for regen, it was purely a defensive measure. Party makeup was: Elemental Shaman, Fire Mage, Fury Warrior and a Holy Paladin as a healer. The Elemental Shaman was undergeared and the Fury Warrior was offhanding a skinning dagger because he hadn't levelled the right skill for his new weapon. The rest of us are T5 geared.

An Enhancement Shaman that wants to tank needs a Paladin because we get Parry through Spirit Weapons, which comes attached with threat reduction. Without Salvation on your DPS, they'll have to hold back alot, and I thought 5% Parry was too valuable to give up for survivability. My healer never had to pot, so I actually think it'd be better without it Spirit Weapons, though my Fire Mage said he was deliberately being difficult and the Shadow Priest was PvP specced with no threat reduction talents. I frequently forgot to wait for Shamanistic Rage to cooldown before tacking rough pulls and bosses, but it seemed to work out fine.

Spec used was 0/44/17 with a PvP slant (Guardian Totems over Enhancing Totems) but your average raiding spec should be fine anyway. The other noteable choice talent might be Shield Spec over Ancestral Knowledge, which I usually go for anyway, since the mana gains from AK are minimal.

My pull technique was to Chain Lightning and run over an Earthbind, letting me Chain Lightning again before closing in for melee, with spare Frost Shocks on loose mobs to hold them over heal aggro. This was enough to hold aggro most of the time, though Earthbind helped give me time to recover if I did lose it. AoE pulls were also a problem threat-wise, though no one died. I used Windfury Weapon on a Merciless Gladiator's weapon with Mongoose (for the dodge).

The toughest pulls were the Bog Overlords, which required the Elemental Shaman to help heal me, and for some of the heavier pulls, we had the Fury Warrior tank one mob, but since another class with Humanoid CC would've made this unnesscary, I didn't consider this to invalidate the experiment. :P

The first boss (Hydromancer), was a bit tough at first due to the fact we had no banish, and the Elementals are immune to the only threat heavy attack we have, Frost Shock. We ended up having the Fury offtank one Elemental (simulating a banish) while I focused on the other, and kept Frost Shocking Hydromancer to hold her over healing threat. We killed my Elemental, then the Warrior's, then the boss.

Engineer and Warlord were pretty easy, though I had to help DPS water tanks.

Last edited by panny : 01/14/08 at 11:37 PM.
#6218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
frozndevl
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?

Edit: My bad, I was reading off of the item link which still says main hand. Goes to show what happens if you trust the interweb.

Last edited by frozndevl : 01/15/08 at 10:33 AM.
#6219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Sebudai
They changed Fool's Bane to One-Hand semi-recently.

Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
GoA of course.
#6220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
It's not, it was changed to One Hand in a recent patch.
#6221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?
In the Vindicator's gear (Neck/Bracers), I had [Steady Talasite]. In my head, I had an RED and a STR gem. Merciless Shoulders had double Solid Stars. Chest was full DPS gems, all enchants were DPS enchants except for boots, where I use Boar's Speed rather than Cat's Swiftness. Fairly standard PvP gearing. Shield was +stam of course. The Paladin healing me actually commented that it's harder to heal some PuG warriors.
#6222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
+ Added "wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown" option. While it shows that it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS, remember that you may miss or be forced to postpone some other abilities due to global cooldown, though you may be able to perform them while waiting with SS. I guess you'll need to substract 1-2 shocks per 2 minutes to simulate that but not sure about it
+ Corrected Grace of Air buff to 88 agi, not 97 like SoE
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
Correct.
#6223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
#6224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2masso
hi, ive gotten 4/5 of the season 3 enhance gear now. and the stats there are pritty nice, but i was just wondering since my guild does TK/SSC, is the gear there better then season3 or aint it that big difference?
#6225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS.
#6276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2DarthCliche
It was a strange group make-up for sure and ended up only lasting for one boss before more melee came in, so I hadn't ever had the situation come up before. I just wanted to make sure I'd exhausted every option for determining that the course of action I took was indeed the correct one. My thanks for the quick response.

I don't intend to bother with totem twisting, but I think I'll research it just for personal edification.
#6277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Mengus
I'm faced with a similar dillema regarding our plethora of hunters.

Unfortunately, they all whine that they want to milk the benefits of the ENH Shaman (AP and AGI), but as mentioned in previous posts, MELEE is the group than ENH Shaman buff up the best.

It's hard to find a spot for a hunter in the Melee Group, as you're ideally running with:
Enh Shaman
Combat Rogue/Ret Pally?
Combat Rogue
Fury Warrior
Feral Druid

We'll often toss a Resto Shaman in that group if there's no ENH available, and rarely would we raid with 2 ENH Shaman, unless it's on farm bosses..

For an Ele/Enh specced additional ENH Shaman, maybe the ideal group would be:

Ele/Enh Shaman
Feral Druid
Hunter Surv
Hunter BM
Shadow Priest
*I think a mutilate rogue might do well there, but Shadow Priest should have at least 3 mana users imo.

Any thoughts on this rare, but possibly interesting possibilty where GoA would be ideal

Last edited by Mengus : 01/17/08 at 4:27 PM. Reason: Nuking Post
#6278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bargle
Hunters get very little benefit from being grouped with an enhancement shaman compared to any melee class. Unleashed Rage does NOT give ranged AP, so the only benefits they're getting is mana spring, agility (assuming GoA totem--meaning 1 or less rogue/warrior/retadin in the group), and some strenf for their pet. Hunters should never replace melee in an enhancement shaman's group, they should only be filler.
#6279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
For an Ele/Enh specced additional ENH Shaman, maybe the ideal group would be:

Ele/Enh Shaman
Feral Druid
Hunter Surv
Hunter BM
Shadow Priest
*I think a mutilate rogue might do well there, but Shadow Priest should have at least 3 mana users imo.

Any thoughts on this rare, but possibly interesting possibilty where GoA would be ideal
Is this a joke? There's nothing about that group that's even remotely ideal.

Whether a shaman is restoration sub-spec or elemental sub-spec doesn't change their group synergy capabilities one bit. Stick with the full melee group.
#6280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mengus
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
Is this a joke? There's nothing about that group that's even remotely ideal.

Whether a shaman is restoration sub-spec or elemental sub-spec doesn't change their group synergy capabilities one bit. Stick with the full melee group.
This was postulating that you had a 2nd ENH Shaman, and conceivably the Melee grp is already ideal, but you now have a 'ghetto' grp that you don't know how to outfit. Hunters always seem to get the short end of the stick, and they can really put out some dps with a shadowpriest...
#6281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
This was postulating that you had a 2nd ENH Shaman, and conceivably the Melee grp is already ideal, but you now have a 'ghetto' grp that you don't know how to outfit. Hunters always seem to get the short end of the stick, and they can really put out some dps with a shadowpriest...
If you're serious, then sticking the elem/enh shaman in with hunters that, more likely than not, are going to outrange his 20 yard totems for the majority of the fight would be a bad idea anyways.
#6282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rapparee
Mengus:
the best filler group if you have two enhancement shaman.... is to stick the crappier enhance in the main tank group.
He's only responsible for keeping windfury (agi if you have a bear MT), str and UR up on the tanks.

That gives everyone else in the raid a larger threat gap. I may be missing something here, but any 10man and up, the 2nd enhance shaman best serves the raid by buffing the tanks.
#6283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Very bad group syngraty (Sp ?) there. Best shaman to put with hunters is always a resto shaman. They benefit more from his mana tide then our str totem + unleashed rage give to his pet plus he's gonna be dropping agility totem for them.

Best group for Enhancement shaman to be utilized to his fullest potential is:

1x Fury Warrior.
2x Combat Rogues.
1x Enh. Shaman.
1x Hybrid Buffer (Feral Druid/Retri Pala/Another Warrior).

And Yes my current guild runs with a standard Retri paladin & we find them invaluable in healing/Mana intensive fights.
#6284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Sebudai
First of all, hunters don't need a shadow priest to do great damage. Second of all, how ironic that these questions are popping up just a day after I was complaining about them in the EJBB.

Rogue/Rogue/Hunter/Hunter/Shaman is a retarded group. And personally, I'm not interested in theorycrafting the exact math for it. Do it yourself. I don't even have to theorycraft for that group though, because the answer is obvious. One of those hunters is Survival, drop GoA. Duh. Or you could just totem twist. There are a hundred different retarded group compositions we could theorycraft for, but they're retarded, so we don't. Are we really going to get questions like these every time some guild has wonky attendance and has to build a weird group?

Non-retarded group compositions:

Rogue/Feral Druid/Retribution Paladin
Rogue
Rogue
Arms/Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shaman

BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Survival Hunter
Feral Druid
Restoration Shaman

If you have a 2nd Enhancement shaman, put him in the MT group unless you don't have a restoration shaman for the hunter group.
#6285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tristan
Originally Posted by Sengiratolom View Post
sorry if this asked before.

i was wondering if it was possible to make a macro that resets when either of these criteria are met: target switching, out of combat, you press shift together with your macro hotkey

and that build into

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/atack
/castsequence reset=10 Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock

thanks alot
This:
#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/startattack
/castsequence reset=10/shift/combat/target Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock
Should work, not sure how it's affected by having the attack start before the cast sequence but I guess you'll have to test it with and without.
#6286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
Hello. I always read this thread when i have a doubt, and usually solves it.

Now according to some other sites (maxdps) the best pieces for enha shaman, (i'm trying ssc and tk with my guild) are in leather, it's this probably true?
#6287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Myul
The difference between wearing full T6 to best (leather) pieces around is a difference of around 30 attack power and 3% crit (rounded).

Have a look by yourself and check > this profile <.

Putting the values in Yo's Sim (battleshout instead of lotp, 19 shocks pm), T6 is around 1475 dps and the "best" gear avaible around 1550 dps, a possible gain of 5%.

If i would have to make the choice again between letting all rogues/ferals hating me for bidding on leather and simply pick up 5 tokens i would chose the tokens these days.
Stamina heavy, a lot of int to backup unlucky shamanistic rage usage and the droprate is fixed. Compare it to all the mail and leather random drops, i was very lucky to pick up my gear in a small time window.

Last edited by Myul : 01/18/08 at 9:53 AM. Reason: added dps numbers
#6288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Zula
Deleted

Last edited by Zula : 01/18/08 at 10:19 AM.
#6289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Myul
Well, that's easy. Put your stats into Yo's Sim and get your AEP. Then do the maths.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] with a 4 str/4 crit gem:
50 ap
04 str
24 crit
17 agi

[Vindicator's Linked Bracers] with a 8 str gem:
33 str
21 crit

Crit is slighty less worthy then ap point per point. But the badges ones will net you much more crit.

Don't try to compare %, simply compare the aep.

For simply compare, use ap = 1, crit = 2, agi = 1.8 and str = 2.2.

50 ap * 1 = 50
04 str * 2.2 = 8.8
24 crit * 2 = 48
17 agi * 1.8 = 30.6
137.6 together.

33 str * 2.2 = 72.6
21 crit * 2 = 42
114.6 together

Difference of 23 or over 16%.

Hint: It's [ ITEM]ITEMNAME[ /ITEM].
#6290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
Say you have only 2 palidins in your raid. Do you take salv and kings or salv and might? I know might gives far more AP, but does the increased agil make up for the lost AP? I guess it really depends on your gear, but it would help me if you could answer this.
#6291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Myul
Blessing of Might is 220 ap untalentated, 264 with talents.

your strength / 10 * 2.2 + your agility / 10 * 2.

With SoE, Roosted Clefthoof, MotW and your base statpoints you can break 600 strength and maybe 300 agility.

That's only less then 200 aep. If you don't need the +stamina and don't want a slighty bigger manapool, go for blessing of might.
#6292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
according to Yo's simulator the ep value is different from the one Kenji provides in first post,
High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
Yo's gives:
AP: 1
Crit: 1.29
Hit rating: 1,48
haste rating: 1.34
Armor Penetration: 0.23
strenght: 2.2
Agility:1.25
Expertise:2.71

So isn't Yo's no more good? in Yo's Hit>haste>Crit in this:Haste>Crit>hit
#6293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
As a guess, you didn't input buffs correctly or run the sim nearly long enough, not to mention that those numbers are an average of 7 10k hour sim runs.
#6294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
Ok i use lootrank with the number you Provide, feel good
#6295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Tambard
Recently, I have just stopped evaluating hit on items to find the best in the game, stats-wise. Given this, I've come to find myself at 68 hit. Wednesday night, [Forest Prowler's Helm] replaced my [Skyshatter Cover] (down to 48 hit). Thursday night I was a bit worried, so I used [Spicy Hot Talbuk], and I jumped from being around 7-8 on damage to Top 4 on every fight in Hyjal. Next week, I'm going to use [Roasted Clefthoof] and compare results... I noticed a few pages back that people were discouraging others from dropping below 100 hit, so I just thought I'd throw up a realtime counterpoint to those claims. I was also wondering if anyone else pretty much itemizes via pure stats or if they use the somewhat lofty hit values. Seems to me that the op contradicts itself in valuing hit so high, when it clearly states not to choose hit over stats.

Last edited by Tambard : 01/18/08 at 3:15 PM. Reason: Clarity
#6296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
Seems to me that the op contradicts itself in valuing hit so high, when it clearly states not to choose hit over stats.
Incorrect, you are misreading things.
#6297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jwwpua
@Yo: Resilience option for simulator?

@Yo:

Hey I've been using your simulator and it's really helpful. I was wondering if you would add an option to input target resilience, so that I could see how my stat weights in PvP. It would also help choose Mongoose or Executioner on 1 or both weapons.

On the one hand, 400 resilience will decrease chance to crit by ~10%, making me think it would value crit higher, but on the other hand, it decreases crit damage by ~20%, so I'm not sure how it would weigh out.

Anyways, just wondering, I understand it's for PvE dps but figured I'd ask!



thanks
#6298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Chutoi
Hey guys--I seem to have missed (if it is written up) what conversion rate may be used to compare EP (for stat weight comparisons) to actual dps. Thus, is a 10 EP upgrade a 1 dps upgrade? I suppose my question relates to how much of an upgrade a 2 EP item might actually be in terms of damage output.

Thanks, and sorry if I just missed it!

Chutoi

Last edited by Chutoi : 01/18/08 at 4:51 PM.
#6299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jwwpua
Originally Posted by Chutoi View Post
Hey guys--I seem to have missed (if it is writting up) what conversion rate may be used to compare EP (for stat weight comparisons) to actual dps. Thus, is a 10 EP upgrade a 1 dps upgrade? I suppose my question related to how much of an upgrade a 2 EP item might actually be in terms of damage output.

Thanks, and sorry if I just missed it!

Chutoi
If you choose the option "Find EP Weights", it will show you on the top right how much 1 EP equals in terms of DPS.

For example, mine shows 1 EP = 0.2333 DPS. So 10 EP = 2.333 DPS for me.
#6300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Chutoi
Thanks, Jwwpua. Apparently, I'm slower than normal today. I didn't see that!
#6326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
Any chance you can post spell rotations with the 0/45/16 build and the 16/45/0 build? I know what my spell roation is with the resto sub-spec, but I'm sure people would want to know a roation with totem-twisting or the ele sub-spec. Thanks in advance.
This is still being worked out and hotly debated in the other thread.
#6327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2qualia
Originally Posted by Nobunda View Post
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????
For us, the Feral is the one that gets switched out. He benefits the least from BL I think.
#6328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Sebudai
I always swap out the feral druid for Bloodlust. Or if the group has 3 rogues instead of 2 rogues and a druid I'll swap myself out. I don't like swapping our warrior out because it removes Battle Shout(at least temporarily.) As far as I know Bloodlust is still great for an arms warrior. It affects the cast time of Slam and reduces the global cooldown.
#6329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
reduces the global cooldown.
This was proven to be false a few months ago. It does not change the GCD.
#6330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Atren
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
#6331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
No, no, NO!
It has been proven, and it is a simple test, that bloodlust does not change the GCD.
#6332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Galine
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close, and was starting to think on how to improve my gear. The only thing I'm hesitant on is giving up my pure str stats for gear with higher AP - since, in raids and almost every group I am in, I have kings and salvation (we have a hell of a lot of paladins). Once I get my Vinidicator's neck with a str/crit gem, I'll be gemming up my T4 shoulders with an additional 8str gem. Also as was mentioned earlier, the T4 str bonus to the totem makes a huge difference with me, and I find that pretty valuable. What are your opinions on this and should I worry that much about the T4 bonus, or just go with the rogue badge rewards (other than the boots as I'm a pretty big fashion whore and they look really dumb on females).

Edit: Spelling... these keyboards at work suck, lol.

Edit 2: Forgot to mention, we're currently stuck at a cleared Kara, and can clear the first chest in ZA, with the 4 avatars down, as well as High King Maulgar... so, that's pretty much where my gear choices generally fall in to place.

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 2:43 PM.
#6333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
We have a fair amount of evidence showing that it does not affect the GCD.

If you have proof to the contrary, document it and post it, otherwise stop posting claims like that.
#6334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Galine View Post
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close
Really? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up much on the thread but I can recall multiple discussions of the T4 2 piece and it's value within the last week. I'm glad that you found the thread and are trying to improve your character, but please take some time to use the "search this thread" function in the top right hand corner so the same question doesn't get asked for the thousandth time. If anything is unclear after that I'd be happy to help and answer you to the best of my ability.
#6335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Galine
Edit: Yeah, I did find something, more or less gear suggestions for replacements and values for the set bonus which I wasn't exactly aiming for. The T4 set bonus wasn't really the main factor I was trying to address, more along the lines of the potential gain from kings. Guess I'll have to try the simulator later to see how much potential loss/gain I get from swapping out my other Str gear for AP pieces... too bad the site can't be proxied to at work. Math is really not my friend, at all... heh.

I'll post again if I'm confused, haha... thanks =)

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 6:17 PM. Reason: I'm dumb.
#6336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Odd AEP numbers

My alt is an Enhancement Shaman and I am currently working on making him raid worthy on the off chance we end up needing another. I have been following this thread since before I even rolled him. My gear is middle of the road. Some Kara pieces, Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, Swiftstrike Shoulders and several instance blues. I was using Yo's simulator to try obtain my current AEP values. I got some very unexpected results based on what I was expecting from the first post.
  • Crit - 1.4
  • Hit - 1.19
  • Haste - 1.19
  • Armor Penetration - 0.19
  • Agility 1.24
  • Expertise Rating - 2.21
I wanted to find out if these numbers were accurate or if I had entered something wrongly on the simulator. I took paper doll AP, Hit rating converted to % + 9% from talents, Haste % went with the base 4400 Boss armor. I ran the simulation with no buffs besides GoA and SoE. Since the DPS I got was substantially higher then what I see in game and I had the odd AEP values I feel like I must have done something wrong.


I'll include an armory link for reference. I know I can get better DPS by switching some +4 Str +6 Stam gems out, and that I need to get an enchant on my off-hand. Kaltad
#6337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
That makes sense, your AP is still pretty low. The low AEP is really just highly rating AP/str. Generally AP is universally useful and its only the difference between hit/crit/haste that really determines gear choices. You really dont find crit/hit becoming highly rated until over 1600 base AP.
#6338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Thank you for the quick reply. That makes sense. I just thought it was a little odd considering the entry level AEP's given on the front page. Now that I think about it, a lot of the shamans (starting Kara) I've been seeing around have AP equivalent to mine but with much lower crit and hit ratings. So the simulator is basically telling me that crit/Agi is becoming much less valuable as I approach 100% UR uptime and 75% flurried hits.
#6339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
The added value of crit from proc uptimes is less than the value of the dps from more critical strikes. It's not going to
cause a major fall-off in the value of any one stat.

It all comes down to buffs -- most of our simulations include BS and BoM, which together add 667 AP. You, in turn, have added 3.52% crit that most simulations don't factor in. More crit and less AP will devalue crit and value AP, which is exactly what you see.

People tend to ignore buffs when they list their simulation values, and I wish they'd stop it. Buffs change EP values dramatically.

Your stats aren't that strange, and if this shaman is for farming or PUGs you've actually got the right EP numbers in front of you.
#6340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Fast FT dagger OH

Yeah like we haven't discussed this before...

I use the gladiator 2.60 1h mace (~91dps) as main hand with windfury and until I get another one for my off-hand I'm using a 1.8 ~80dps dagger with flametongue. Now, what if I went for the 1.4 ~91dps dagger instead?

The WF proc is 20% which means that after the 3 sec CD I will get a WF effect every five hits. Here's the thing: with 2.6 speed I will only "waste" one hit during the CD and that will make an average of 6 hits per proc. I've used recount (ace2 addon) and found that my average WF proc is around 1300 dmg (don't laugh^^) Now six hits with flurry = 6x1.82 sec = 10,92 sec average per WF proc which means WF will add 1300/10,92 = 119 dps

My flametongue off-hand adds roughly 80 dps (recount). Total dps buff for my current WF / FT ~ 200dps

If I go for WF / WF instead this will happen: After a proc I will have three hits within the CD (if MH procs it'll be OH, MH, OH)

The WF proc rate when dual wielding is supposedly 36% (according to this thread) which means I will have 3 hits within the CD then an average of three hits before I get another proc. That next proc has a 50% chance of being a MH one. If it's an OH proc it'll be much lower (~700 says my recount when using the mace in OH).

(1300+700) / 2 = 1000 average proc when dual wielding. This will happen every sixth hit (3 hits within CD, three on average for the proc). With flurry that's 6x0,91 = 5,46 sec. Rendering the total WF dps buff 1000/5,46 = 183 dps

Because of the fact that the off-hand eats half of the procs it seems better to just use WF on the MH and always get the 100% WF effect and use FT on a fast OH instead.

Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
#6341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
2



Extra



Hits

If you could imbue your johnson with Windfury, it would boost your DPS, even if it stole both MH and OH procs.
#6342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Dariusx
dont forget about stormstrike - which will have much more benefit if your 2 weapons are slow.
and the better your gear the better wf will scale - ft not.
#6343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2drats
Originally Posted by Tuili View Post
Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
If by 'someone' you mean 'section IV of the original post', then here's the link: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

--

Just out of curiosity, does the WF cooldown affect WF totem hits as well? If not, my idea is that someone could make a mod to remove MH WF during the cooldown and drop the totem, then remove the totem buff and reapply WF when the cooldown was over. Just for fun that is, I don't think it would be feasible at all in raids.
#6344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
#6345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
That isn't what he's saying. He is saying that inside of the 3 second cooldown remove WF from your weapon and drop a WF totem, then reapply WF after the cooldown is up.
#6346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
♦ Toots Hepcat
This is an insane concept that infuriates and intrigues me.

Some things to think about
- you'd have to not be GCD when WF procs.
- you'd have to be within the rare window where you neither have an SS coming, a shock coming or a totem to drop in the next 3s, else you'd be reducing your damage from other areas.
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
- you'd have to be able to manage these two actions and their GCDs within the confines of a 3s window.

My cycle is complex enough as is, thanks.

Also, fast daggers suck, mate. Just ask all the fast dagger shamans I've annihilated on the meters. Your math is flawed in a couple ways...for one, 3 hits between WF procs is not the average with dual WF. Your chance of getting WF the first hit outside of the cooldown is 36%, in one of the first two hits is 59%. Thus your "average" hits before proc outside the cooldown is going to be less than 2. For another, single WF has an outside of CD proc chance of 20%. By going WF/FT, you may actually decrease the WF dps from your main hand.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/21/08 at 6:23 PM.
#6347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Ok I'm convinced. I'll just go grind those extra nine thou honor I need for the unfairly expensive off-hand (one hand) mace Thank you for the info!
#6348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
It can be clicked off. I've made the mistake of forgetting to reapply the weapon buffs while clearing trash before. Drop my totems and see the phase "Extra Attack!" on SCT. Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.

But as Ilmatar said, the totem is only 1 attack, the weapon buff is 2. More damage = better, that's the whole point of this thread, right? If the totem affected the offhand, it would still be worse than the weapon buff.
#6349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stopokingme
Originally Posted by stabbymcgee View Post
Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
#6350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Kirion
Originally Posted by Stopokingme View Post
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
It's easier to use macro with /cancelaura. I don't think you can cast weapon buff fast enough without macro and i don't know if you can cancel wf totem buff.
#6376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
With my stat weights [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is a lot better than [Boneweave Girdle]. I didn't double check with your stat weights, but they are only a little different from mine, so I'm pretty sure it'd come out on top for you too?
Yes, with his values...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] = 237.52 EP
[Boneweave Girdle] = 211.71 ((I was generous and included hit))
#6377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
As I had previously noted, I'm not a big fan of including hit... So, I've been investigating the Haste Options, and the Bindings of Lightning Reflexes are 140.07 with your weights... And Insidious Bands are 148.22 with the hit included (20.52 of which is hit)... I dunno if the 12.35 EP worth of pure stats is worth losing for the hit.
Why aren't you a fan of including hit?

Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I included the socket bonus in my math, is it still not better? I must be missing something.
Lets see if I'm messing up.

Insidious Bands
28 Agility: (1.67*28) = 46.76 EP
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
Socket Bonus: 2 Agi (2*1.67) = 3.34 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (46.76) + (19.6) + (3.34) + (20.52) + (58) = 148.22 EP

Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 12:38 PM.
#6378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
#6379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Not messing it up, Deadly Cuffs come out by 2 AEP for me too. I have picked them up, just not quite sure what gem to put in it (we're running low on Pyrestones T_T)
#6380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
With my stat weights [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is a lot better than [Boneweave Girdle]. I didn't double check with your stat weights, but they are only a little different from mine, so I'm pretty sure it'd come out on top for you too?
Ah yeah, Vashj belt is the best, sorry. I copied my list over from my guilds forums and since we don't raid SSC anymore I didn't include that belt on my original list. Edited my post to include it.

Originally Posted by ikillyouheal View Post
I let it be at 4400(as standard), and I can't really remember the EP for it, but I have -399 ArPen on my gear, can't run the sim from here.
It should be lower than that. I put it at 2930, which is the fully debuffed average between the two common boss armor values.
#6381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Why aren't you a fan of including hit?
No, you're 100% right in your calculations. I, personally, prefer to calculate based on pure stats. If they're within approx 4 or 5 EP, depending on the item, AND one has hit on it, I'll go with that; however, I don't like the concept of sacrificing 12-15 EP for Hit, when it doesn't make much of a difference.
#6382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Jamor
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
Yes, with his values...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] = 237.52 EP
[Boneweave Girdle] = 211.71 ((I was generous and included hit))

Do you seriously not weight hit when you are comparing loot for yourself?


EDIT: Sorry, you answered the question when I had the compose message up.

IMO you discount hit a little too much. White damage still makes a up a huge chunk of damage for a shaman.

Last edited by Jamor : 01/22/08 at 12:42 PM.
#6383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
I wouldn't, but I'm sure a lot of people would. If you use a Spinel instead then Deadly Cuffs end up being .46 EP better than Insidious Bands.

Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
No, you're 100% right in your calculations. I, personally, prefer to calculate based on pure stats. If they're within approx 4 or 5 EP, depending on the item, AND one has hit on it, I'll go with that; however, I don't like the concept of sacrificing 12-15 EP for Hit, when it doesn't make much of a difference.
There's nothing wrong with hit rating and it would be a mistake to discount it. It has an EP value just like any other stat. It's just barely worse than crit rating for me(as you can see by the EP values I posted previously.)

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 12:50 PM.
#6384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
I don't understand why you'd socket that with a pyrestone. It's simply better to go with the spinel and no stamina. As has been stated multiple times; stamina is a nonissue for most t6 content since we have enough on our 'best' gear as is.
#6385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tambard
Originally Posted by Jamor View Post
Do you seriously not weight hit when you are comparing loot for yourself?


EDIT: Sorry, you answered the question when I had the compose message up.

IMO you discount hit a little too much. White damage still makes a up a huge chunk of damage for a shaman.
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-

Edit: I still have a lot of the same final gear choices.

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger] or [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] ((For non-LWers))
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Midnight Chestguard]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Fists of Mukoa] / [Grips of Damnation]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (([Don Alejandro's Money Belt] otherwise))
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Dragonstrike] / [Syphon of the Nathrezim] ((I don't like to PvP))
[Syphon of the Nathrezim]
[Stonebreaker's Totem]

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 1:36 PM.
#6386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
I don't understand why you'd socket that with a pyrestone. It's simply better to go with the spinel and no stamina. As has been stated multiple times; stamina is a nonissue for most t6 content since we have enough on our 'best' gear as is.
There's a few reasons I personally didn't socket mine with a Spinel, but I agree most people will. Considering the list I posted is supposed to be the "best" gear as far as damage output, I'll go ahead and switch it to include Deadly Cuffs.

Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-
That is some very flawed logic. What makes you think hit is being highly over-valued?
#6387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Strygwyr
For Tambards list, you might want to include that Wicked Edge of Planes and Rising Tide would be better for an orc shaman.
#6388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
I've updated my original list once again to include [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] since I had missed those. The list should be completely accurate now.
#6389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-

Edit: I still have a lot of the same final gear choices.

[Mail of Fevered Pursuit]
I know you're undervaluing hit, but even so how do you get the Mail of Fevered Pursuit over [Midnight Chestguard]? Due to the heavy itemweight of MP5, my EP for the Mail is considerably lower than the Chestguard.
#6390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
There's a few reasons I personally didn't socket mine with a Spinel, but I agree most people will. Considering the list I posted is supposed to be the "best" gear as far as damage output, I'll go ahead and switch it to include Deadly Cuffs.


That is some very flawed logic. What makes you think hit is being highly over-valued?
The T6 stat values put hit even with Agility. If you're going to tell me that I should be evaluating gear with a stat that is widely regarded as a lesser stat to a decent one, you're crazy. I'm not saying that I'd go all crazy and run with no hit whatsoever. I'd prefer to be around 75 (But I cannot seem to get the hit drops to come). There's no reason to do say...


Softstep Boots of Tracking
AGI = 45.09
Crit = 44.72
AP = 76
Hit = 29.07
____________
194.88 (165.81)


Shadowmaster's Boots
AGI = 50.1
Sockets + Bonues = 26.76
Crit = 29.24
AP = 76
____________
182.1


You're gonna sacrifice 16+ EP for some hit? I'm not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, with your weights, even without hit... Midnight Chestguard is a better choice...
(My original Math on this was done before established weights came out for T6)

Midnight Chestguard
Sockets+Bonus = 60.6
Hit = 49.59
Crit = 79.12
AP = 106
_______________
295.31 ((245.72))

Mail of Fevered Pursuit
AGI = 81.83
Crit = 49.88
AP = 108
_______________
239.71

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 1:40 PM.
#6391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Ok, here's a question for you: Would you take 1 strength over 20 hit rating? Remember, strength is our best stat and hit rating is a "lesser stat".
#6392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Ok, here's a question for you: Would you take 1 strength over 20 hit rating? Remember, strength is our best stat and hit rating is a "lesser stat".
It would depend on the outcome of the stats... If the difference was just that 2.2 EP vs. the 20 hit... No, I wouldn't. But to lose 16 EP for 17 hit... Not worth it in my opinion. If I were to give hit a value and try to evaluate stats with it... I'd say MAYBE... .75 But for me, I really just look at the outcome. If an item is way ahead in raw stats, I'm not giving that up for hit. I just don't see any justification for it.

Another Note: In my final setup (if you're using Shoulderpads of the Stranger), a Shaman would have 9 Expertise and 124 Hit. which even the pro-hit fiends would enjoy.


Edit: I'm not saying that I want to avoid hit at all costs... I'm just saying that sacrificing a large portion of stats for hit seems highly flawed to me. Especially when I've experienced in the game how little having low hit effects my DPS.

Or check out the belt you're using due to lack of SSC...

Boneweave Girdle
AGI = 63.46
Hit = 29.07
Crit = 41.28
AP = 76
____________
209.81(180.74)

Don Alejandro's Money Belt
AGI = 48.43
Socket + Bonues = 41.6
Crit = 32.68
AP + 76
____________
198.71


Worth the hit? :-\

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 4:13 PM.
#6393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Is it possible for you to get a WWS log of a raid or 2? You said earlier that you "get top 4 on dps", however with no numbers that means very little. For example you could be getting top 4 dmg with 1200 dps or top 4 dmg with 1800 dps and thats a huge difference.

If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers.
As I said, I was mainly just posting due to my personal experience with Hit Rating. Malan wants to talk about simulators and this and that... Using information from YOUR THEORIES to further prove YOUR THEORIES is clearly better than realtime trials. I don't really care if my findings are widely accepted, as I've seen and discovered them to be accurate, but when Malan is clearly stating in his OP that "hit is just less important than the others[stats]" and then wants to justify that the OP is correct in it's ridiculously high value for Hit makes no sense to me. As my itemization on the previous page shows, I'm not running all over looking for items without hit. I'm doing what is suggested in the OP, and picking up the highest PURE STAT items in the game and picking up whatever hit comes along the way. I'd like Malan to show exactly how it's possible that, for a Shaman, Hit can possibly be worth as much as Agility... It makes no sense whatsoever, and I will never itemize as such.

If you guys want to, go right ahead! If it somehow makes sense to you, I fully support you, and I hope it works out for ya; however, I'm not just going to read a site and take what it tells me as fact until I can see some in-game evidence. And from everything I've experienced... As I swap hit items for stat items, DPS increases substantially.
#6394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
If that's not you saying hit rating is a lesser stat, then I don't know what is...
By your same monkey logic I guess we can conclude that Attack Power is also a 'lesser stat' and we should stop including it on EP values as well since its only worth 1 EP. May as well drop Haste off of it as well.
#6395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Wow... lagged like crazy.
#6396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Thanks a lot for the help, Sebudai. I have to go over the list and see what my options are.

Tambard: Since you are such a fan of theorycraft, do you agree that your white damage misses? And if it does, do you agree that increasing your hit rating will make you gain DPS by more white damage? Thus hit rating is a valuable stat, right? It may not be of equal value to str, AP, crit or ag, but it matters.

You should be very careful to claim stuff based on observations. Observations are seldom enough data for empirical evidence. And even if you do, look at your SWS data and figure out how much DPS gained you have from, say 5 AP or 20 hit rating. It should be doable to reverse engineer your attacks to apply the two additions. I expect you to see the hit gain come out on top.
#6397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
lol, as I said a few pages back. You guys can do whatever you want. Good luck with it! Using simulators with your theorycrafted information to further prove your theories is pretty nice. I was just noting what I had experienced in the actual game content and questioning how it's even fathomable for hit to be worth the ridiculous amount it's listed at. You're on a righteous crusade to defend the OP, when you won't even address the fact that you're defying your own written words, Malan. THAT is amusing.
#6398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
There's nothing special about damage ranges for us, so weapon choices boil down to:

dps
weapon speed
stats

don't worry about a 100 - 200 weapon versus a 50 -250 weapon. They'll do identical damage over time.
Possible benefit in PvP? The higher burst potential might be worthwhile... but as Disquette mentioned, for PvE, speed > damage range assuming equivalent dps.
#6399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Also keep in mind that the more haste gear you're sporting, might mean expertise and hit being more useful than it otherwise would be. Also, keep in mind that when raid buffed, you might possibly see some diminishing returns in the benefit of AP/STR over other 'minor' stats. I mean, if you're rocking out at something like 5K AP buffed, hit might be a more substantial investment. Also, keep track of your percentage of white damage... if it starts climbing higher, hit might become more important.
#6400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat."
Okay... OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others.
What do I win?
#6451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Darganis
Originally Posted by Iku View Post
First, those are probably fake patch notes. Second, even if they were valid (which would suck), every enhancement shaman already has the Elemental Weapons talent. It's the prerequisite for Stormstrike.
I sure hope they are fake.
#6452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Darganis View Post
I sure hope [the patch notes] are fake.
Me too. But those notes are awfully complex and comprehensive. They look real to me.

If they are real, then Bliz is really screwing us. Not because the changes are necessarily bad themselves, but because it looks like they think that the ghost wolf thing will solve our problems with CC. Maybe it'll help a bunch in PvP (imp GW will be mandatory), but it does nothing for us in PvE, where we need some sort of CC. Instead, they let rogues sap even in combat. Because everyone knows rogues don't get enough love, and they need more CC...

That aside, I have no problem with WF being less bursty. I'm generally smart enough now, and careful enough with Omen, to not die in the first 5 seconds of combat due to too-lucky crits with WF and SS... but it would be great not to have to think about that. It'll also help a lot for riding close to 110% threat, which is usually too dangerous right now. This all assumes that they don't nerf our total DPS- but sadly, I don't trust them at that either.

OTOH, if they totally got rid of the 3-sec hidden CD on WF, that would be a huge gain for us, because many more weapons would become tenable. Slow would still be better for SS, but it wouldn't be the huge issue it is today.
#6453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
There is no point to further debate about the 'patch' notes until the PTR goes back up. For rampant speculation please use a different threat, namely the sunwell thread.

edit: stupid typos
#6454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Unaz
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Once again, I'm sorry to ask such a horribly cliché of a question, but I don't have a base set of gear to figure out my upgrades from. Most of T6 content is a huge upgrade for me. Is there a shaman's profile or list I can base my project on?
I tried to compile a list here to answer this question. Some of the pieces need a bit of tweaking, but they are generally all the best-in-slot armor pieces, in order of power. The main area I'm sketchy on would be gloves though.

Running the sim on your own gear may change the priority slightly, but you won't go wrong by just following that list.

Most of the slots generally have a badge or pvp option in there to get you started.

Edit: Argh ignore this, this is what I get for leaving a browser window open at work from last week and not paying attention.

Last edited by Unaz : 01/23/08 at 3:45 PM.
#6455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hothgor
I appologize deeply if this has already been posted. That being said, the current but where flurry does not refresh itself if you crit with 1 charge left will be fixed after 2.3.2 (or has been fixed this last patch?):

WoW BlueTracker: [Warrior] Flurry / Whirlwind Bug Fixes?
#6456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I wouldn't, but I'm sure a lot of people would. If you use a Spinel instead then Deadly Cuffs end up being .46 EP better than Insidious Bands.
Erm, so I picked up a Spinel tonight, thinking I'd socket it on my Deadly Cuffs, but then I did some calculations...

These are my values:

AP = 1 AEP
Crit = 1.97 AEP
Hit = 1.77 AEP
Haste = 1.76 AEP
-Armor = 0.37 AEP
Strength = 2.2 AEP
Agility = 1.91 AEP
Expertise = 3.26 AEP

So, let me know if I'm messing this up. I don't want to waste a Spinel, so I'm doublechecking.

Deadly Cuffs + Bold Crimson Spinel

Str = 10 * 2.2 = 22 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
Crit = 28 * 1.97 = 55.16 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP

[top] 156.4 AEP

Insidious Bands + Inscribed Pyrestone

Agi


30 * 1.91 = 57.3 AEP
Str = 5 * 2.2 = 11 AEP
Crit = 5 *1.97 = 9.85 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP
= 157.39

Deadly Cuffs + Pyrestone ends up on 155.25 and Insidious Bands + Spinel ends up on 154.7 AEP.
I probably dropped the ball on some of my maths, but after second glance I didn't see any errors. Obviously your AEP values are going to be different, but I didn't think it'd tip the favour of Insidious Bands with a Pyrestone really.
#6457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Fully depends on one thing I guess, having kings, or not having kings. That might explain the difference?
#6458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm pretty sure Sebudai includes Kings, as did I. I never, ever not have Kings, so no reason to leave it out.
#6459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Gentlemen:

It's less than 1 EP either way. Let it go.
#6460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
When comparing AEP values, I'd say if there's less than 5% difference, either item will be fine.

I picked 5 out of the air, feel free to use a lower value. The above case is a 0.6% difference.
#6461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Erm, so I picked up a Spinel tonight, thinking I'd socket it on my Deadly Cuffs, but then I did some calculations...

These are my values:

AP = 1 AEP
Crit = 1.97 AEP
Hit = 1.77 AEP
Haste = 1.76 AEP
-Armor = 0.37 AEP
Strength = 2.2 AEP
Agility = 1.91 AEP
Expertise = 3.26 AEP

So, let me know if I'm messing this up. I don't want to waste a Spinel, so I'm doublechecking.

Deadly Cuffs + Bold Crimson Spinel

Str = 10 * 2.2 = 22 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
Crit = 28 * 1.97 = 55.16 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP

[top] 156.4 AEP

Insidious Bands + Inscribed Pyrestone

Agi


30 * 1.91 = 57.3 AEP
Str = 5 * 2.2 = 11 AEP
Crit = 5 *1.97 = 9.85 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP
= 157.39

Deadly Cuffs + Pyrestone ends up on 155.25 and Insidious Bands + Spinel ends up on 154.7 AEP.
I probably dropped the ball on some of my maths, but after second glance I didn't see any errors. Obviously your AEP values are going to be different, but I didn't think it'd tip the favour of Insidious Bands with a Pyrestone really.
Instead of running sim to get EP values and evaluating 2 pieces (sets) of gear with them, it is faster and more accurate to run sim twice with those 2 items' (sets) stats and compare DPS (and do not check compute EP values while doing so to speed up).
#6462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well yes, but doesn't the sims DPS vary too much to compare for just one item?
#6463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Well yes, but doesn't the sims DPS vary too much to compare for just one item?
DPS vary much less than EP values. DPS becomes stable at 1000 hours and is dead-stable at 10k. DPS is what you are looking for, and items that have same EP may have different DPS contribution if one item has more spreaded, more "balanced" stats and another is focused solely on 1 stat. EP total for the item is not accounting how balanced stats are on that particular item. The difference is not really significant so that if the item is 10 EP more it will produce more DPS for sure but, if you want to go all the way in choosnig between 2 identical items from sim's point of view - comparing dps is correct. Well I am sure that dps will be the same too , but what I wanted to point to is how to compare 2 items without having to run lengthy calculations of EP.
#6464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macked
I don't know if this has been mentioned or covered or not. I've tried in tests with myself, and if I drop windfury totem, and instnatly dropped the agility totem. Once the windfury totem's buff runs out, i still have the buff for anywhere from 3-5 more seconds, can anyone confirm if this is actually happenning? If so, wouldn't it increase the amount of time we'd have to work with when totem twisting?
#6465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
So, i know this was already covered some times, and that the weapons are almost equal, varying like 1% or less, but...
Every time i input any of the high-end weapons, besides Dragonstrike, i get much less DPS then any other MH.

Is anyone getting same results with their AEP values?
#6466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Macked, Blizzard's code behaves weirdly. I think what you're seeing is akin to the flurry bug, by which we get more attacks flurried than we should. Or maybe not. But I know what you're talking about. It's like the server knows that the buff is gone, and your client knows that your buff is gone, but until the server tells your client that it knows it's gone, it hangs on your screen (and possibly your stats).
#6467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Macked View Post
I don't know if this has been mentioned or covered or not. I've tried in tests with myself, and if I drop windfury totem, and instnatly dropped the agility totem. Once the windfury totem's buff runs out, i still have the buff for anywhere from 3-5 more seconds, can anyone confirm if this is actually happenning? If so, wouldn't it increase the amount of time we'd have to work with when totem twisting?
I'm a little confused by what you mean here. Do you mean the WF buff lasts longer than the 10s if you don't have the totem down? I see this as well, mostly when I forget to refresh WF and need to do it in battles. I've also noticed if I'm using CTbuffmod and refresh WF as soon as the WFT 10s is up, I'll have the buff name WFT but with a 30m timer.

I usually pay more attention to the timers on DQD (thanks Disquette!) than what the server tells me, because if I wait for CTmod then my rogues will complain about not having their WF buff. (Our rogues are pretty on the ball, if they see a string of hits without WF they yell at me in vent.)

If you're really having trouble refreshing WF, you can click off the WFT buff. It's been pretty responsive in my Barrier Hills test, but I haven't ignored WF long enough lately to try this in raids. (If you have WFT down and WF runs out, SCT will display an 'extra attack' pretty quickly. It lets me know when I'm zoning out.)
#6468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
So, i know this was already covered some times, and that the weapons are almost equal, varying like 1% or less, but...
Every time i input any of the high-end weapons, besides Dragonstrike, i get much less DPS then any other MH.

Is anyone getting same results with their AEP values?
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
#6469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Paradox
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
How can you get this information? I have a dragonstrike, just tell me what addon I need to get and how long I need to sit whacking Servants for to get accurate data.

Also

"wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown"

The way that is worded greatly confuses me.. I just don't understand what that sentence means, but I know what you are trying to say with it...

Last edited by Paradox : 01/24/08 at 5:49 AM.
#6470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
it means if your wf is on cooldown you CAN wait for it until you use ss, which could theoretically deal more dmg. breaking your rotation just to wait for a possible wf (which could also procc on the swing just 0,2 sec before you hit that damn ss button) is in my opinion not a good option, but if you want to maximise your possible dps you may think about it.

regarding dragonstrike: the procc seems to be very irregular to figure out about a proc. if it is somethink like 1 ppm you may consider it (212 x 1.82) / 6 = 64,3 (I'm using t6 aep value, not my own), what makes it equal to syphon without it's procc (in other words: worse). on the other side, i don't know the exact ppm. so you may want to guess about that :P
#6471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Marsius
Originally Posted by blakest View Post
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but according to whats said in the Itemization for MH and OH weapons, wouldnt the season 3 axes/maces/fist weapons (assuming you got the 2.6 speed varients) be the best enhancement shaman weapons in the game? (Im new to posting on this site, so ill just write out the stats, sorry no link):
As annoying and sad as it is, generally the PvP weapons are the best for many classes. Ex. I'm coming from a Demo Sac/SnF warlock. This is a pure raid DPS spec and leaves my idea of PvP stuck as hiding somewhere and sniping with shadowbolts. My chances of great arena success? Very, very low. The best I can get for a main hand? Requires an 1850 rating.

And then I rolled an enhancement shammy where I will undoubtedly see great PvP success . . . or just enjoy a different playstyle. You know. Whatever.
#6472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
The irony is, PvP weapons HAVE to be good to penetrate all that high resistance PvP reward armor.

The weapons are the only PvP gear that are really good for shamans in PvE content. There are pieces (vindicator neck/ring, for example) that are great upgrades for many but hardly beat the best of T5. An enhancement shaman looking for full set upgrades in PvP is going to be let down (as I'm sure many are when I obliterate them in the battlegrounds).

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/24/08 at 2:13 PM.
#6473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zinzoo
Originally Posted by Marsius View Post
As annoying and sad as it is, generally the PvP weapons are the best for many classes. Ex. I'm coming from a Demo Sac/SnF warlock. This is a pure raid DPS spec and leaves my idea of PvP stuck as hiding somewhere and sniping with shadowbolts. My chances of great arena success? Very, very low. The best I can get for a main hand? Requires an 1850 rating.

And then I rolled an enhancement shammy where I will undoubtedly see great PvP success . . . or just enjoy a different playstyle. You know. Whatever.
Edit: I'm an idiot.

Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:42 PM.
#6474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
For what it's worth, when I was testing stuff around the time of the haste changes I used to get an in-game uptime around 35%(it fluctuated from 30-40) over numerous 30 min sessions on BL mobs using WF+SS, there was no internal cooldown. I don't know if there's been any changes since then.
#6475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Zinzoo View Post
I would like to note though. That I did not include the stat gains from the weapons, the only thing that was considered was the haste proc on dragonstike. So I may be a little biased there.
If you looked up five posts you'd discover that the Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the simulator. Even if it wasn't overvalued, ignoring the stats on the rest of the items makes your results meaningless. Why would you even use a sim to test whether a 97.6 dps, 2.7 speed weapon was better than a 97.6, 2.7 speed weapon that also has a useful proc?
#6476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zinzoo
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
If you looked up five posts you'd discover that the Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the simulator. Even if it wasn't overvalued, ignoring the stats on the rest of the items makes your results meaningless. Why would you even use a sim to test whether a 97.6 dps, 2.7 speed weapon was better than a 97.6, 2.7 speed weapon that also has a useful proc?
Then completely disregard my previous post. I try and keep track of this thread but I don't have enough time to read every post that is written (poor excuse I know). Seeing Yo post himself that there was an issue with the proc being valued too high in the simulator is news to me. I should not have posted my finds, it was my error. At the time I thought the proc for Dragonstrike had already been establish.

Edit: As for ignoring stats gained from other weapons, I worded that really poorly. Crit, AP, and Hit gained from the other weapons were included, it was weapon procs that I did not include, since the only one in this case was the Syphon's drain life proc (which I believe an accurate PPM still has not been established for).

Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:48 PM.
#6477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
totem twisting clarification

Quick question to clarify my understanding. I just started totem twisting and have the cycle down pretty smooth. I've asked the rogues in my group and our raid leader if they see a difference with twisting, and none have been able to quantify it, myself included. Based on the community and basic math, it's doing something obviously, just don't know how much of an increase.

We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.

I'm looking for confirmation on what I'm seeing and making sure I'm not accidentally lowering dps for my group. As windfury weapon imbue has a 3sec cooldown, does WF totem have a 9sec cooldown? If i left WF totem down the whole time, would the group still only have 32 procs, or would the buff refresh itself and be used more than once in 9 secs? I'm assuming it wouldn't or there would be some mention on these forums and twisting wouldn't be as useful.

I know this seems obvious, guess i'm just looking to make sure my thinking is correct.

WWS - WWS Teron Gorefiend
#6478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vim
While the Totem Imbue is on the party members weapons, they have a 20% chance to proc WF. Having it down all the time as opposed to twisting will not raise the number of procs. On the other hand, you have to be right on top of the twisting cycle so you always have the WF imbue on party members weapons. Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time. WF totem buffs are actually refreshed every 5 seconds, (periodic trigger) so I dont think that they are missing out on any procs unless you dont have WF down as soon as those 9 seconds are up.
#6479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by calem View Post
We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
#6480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
#6481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Emaze
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.

Last edited by Emaze : 01/24/08 at 11:05 PM.
#6482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
There is no 9 second cooldown. It doesn't "consume" any buff or anything like that. Windfury Totem pulses a weapon buff immediately when it is cast and every 5 seconds after that. The buff has a duration of 10 seconds and gives each player a 20% chance to gain one free attack with bonus attack power every time they make an attack with their mainhand weapon.
#6483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Manifesto
There's something which has been irritating me for a while and no one has addressed it...
The front page references Searing totem as a great way to add 70-100 dps, when crowd control isn't an issue. (I actually doubt it's really that high for Enh)
What about the maths on Magma Totem? (Specificlly if you don't twist)

You're always at the bosses feet, so mobility isn't an issue on 9/10 fights. Mana should not be an issue, providing you're not twisting.

I know that Magma Pulses exactly every 2 seconds...
Searing, I believe, has a 2.5 second cast time, however sometimes it waits a little before firing... it can sometimes average a 3 second cast time.

Here's my attempt at some very quick maths...
700 spell damage from AP

Searing Totem 50-66 base damage, 8% spell damage coefficient. 2.5 second cast.
700x0.08 = 56, 106-122, 114 average, every 2.5 seconds. = 45.6 dps.
Call of Flame, 114 +(114x0.15) = 131.1 = 52.4 dps.

Magma Totem 97 base damage, from wowwikki, spell damage coefficient 66.7% (untested, across the entire DoT)
700x0.667 = 466.9 over a 20 second period. 10 pulses in 20 seconds. 46.69 dmg per pulse + base damage.
46.69 + 97 = 143.69. every 2 seconds. = 71.845 dps.
Call of Flame, 143.69 +(143.69x0.15) = 165.24 = 82.62 dps.

This doesn't include crit or resists... we'd also need to finalise those spell coefficients. (Before reading WoWWiki I was under the impression that Flametounge weapon, Searing and Magma totem all recieved 10% per pulse/hit)

Where did the alledged 70-100 dps from searing on the main page come from?
Um, diregard most of the above... Searing must get a significantly higher than 8% coefficient.
Also, I can confirm the cast is actually 2.2s!
EDIT: I got home and did some testing ingame...
With my 1630 Unbuffed Attack power, which obviously fluctuates in raids with procs.
It hits for about 170 ever 2.2s, Magma pulsing for 149/2 sec, So searing gets much more benefit from spell damage... and would scale very nicely.

Boy to I feel silly for all my Magma spam...

Is anyone interested in doing math for maintaining Searing, and dropping Fire Novas every 15 seconds?

Last edited by Manifesto : 01/24/08 at 11:25 PM.
#6484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
I'm not going to do a bunch of math but I will say my searing totem hits or a lot more than 131. With raid buffs it shoots for around 250 and according to Thottbot World of Warcraft: Attack it's a 2.2s cast. With the same buffs my magma totem ticks for about 170.

If we're only hitting one mob it seems pretty easy to figure out which one is better.
#6485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Smokestomp
Originally Posted by Emaze View Post
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
This doesn't look right. Why is crit and agility so valuable? It was my impressions they couldn't surpass Strength or AP as the primary stat. Interested to see more, as that ring would be upgrade for me if I could run the sim and achieve those values for expertise, atleast.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?

High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
#6486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Smokestomp View Post
The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?
Even with kings crit rating is slightly better than agi for pure dps, most consider the extra dodge from agi to cancel out the meager difference though.
#6487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Emaze View Post
Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
#6488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
Is there a way to update the mouseover on these forums?
I was very confused why we would want something with dagger skill and feral combat rating.

Also, my expertise value comes out at 2.5, that seems low relative to other peoples, but I do have 8 expertise already.
#6489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Monkeyfun
Ring Enchant

Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
#6490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Monkeyfun View Post
Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Amazingly, using the "Search this thread" function in the upper right with the terms "enchant ring damage stats" yields many applicable results, including one that directly answers your question. I will decline linking it for you, "Feed a man a fish..." and all that jazz you know.



Use search, really
#6491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Extenze
The Crystalforged Trinket, a Revered rep reward from Ogri'la, has an EP value of 134 (98 [+7 dmg = 98ap] + (216 * 10 / 60))

That would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.

Last edited by Extenze : 01/25/08 at 1:30 PM.
#6492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Vim View Post
Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time.
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of GoA considered as 3% of their white damage, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/27/08 at 8:56 PM.
#6493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Extenze View Post
The Crystalforged Trinket, ... some bad math ... that would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.
+7 DAMAGE = + (7/weapons speed) DPS
2x 2.6s weapons: +2.69 MH DPS, +2.69 OH DPS = ~32 EP + 36 proc = 68 EP.

That trinket is garbage and if you'd searched the thread, you'd have seen that.
#6494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Good mathing, Toots. I don't have the time to poke at it right now, unfortunatly, but knowing how much slip-time I theoretically have, when twisting, is good.

I try to keep slips to below 2s because that is >~MH speed of my sword rogues and ret pally. Worst case I want to keep their un-WF'd hits to a minimum of 1 for totem switches. That's how I've been estimating slip-impact.
#6495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

...

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Equally interesting, your math shows that you still increase DPS by twisting even if you miss by 2 seconds (since the largest benefit to your rogues was 7.2% from WFT). This does, of course, neglect the impact of missed shocks on group DPS, but I would tend to argue that number should be vanishingly slim if you are dropping totems 2s late regularly.
#6496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Subpar
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
#6497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bargle
Originally Posted by Subpar View Post
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
Run the sim.
#6498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)
You should take off-hand specialization into accounts and edit numbers to include that. Rogue Oh do 0.75 Mh damage and warrior Oh do 0.625 Mh damage.
#6499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stoneclaw
Concerning meta gem selection:

After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
If the RED gives roughly a dps boost of 1% given a crit rating of 30% or more and the BED gives 2% less threat, would that not in theory give a shaman the ability to do 100% damage at 98% threat (I know the calculation becomes a bit less accurate once you factor in Spirit Weapons and BoS, but hear me out) instead of 101% damage at 101% threat? Taking into account that at least some work is going into keeping threat down, there would be potential for dps that may be freed by using the BED.
Of course, this only makes sense if you need to actively decrease threat. But if you do, is it viable?

To finish with a table of what I mean:

If the damage is the limiting factor, not normalized:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 98% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 101% dmg - 101% threat

If the threat is the limiting factor, normalized to 100% threat:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 102.04% dmg - 100% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 100% threat
#6500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Stoneclaw View Post
After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
Sure, if you are threat capped. However, more often, threat is not the limiting factor. If it is, you can always twist Tranquil Air, or if the tank's in your group, you can put Enchant Cloak: Subtlety on an old cloak and keep your RED.
#6601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine). Still, the effect of SS timing on Windfury should be similar to the effect of hit rating on Windfury -- if stacking hit rating isn't a huge buff, then slipping SS shouldn't be a huge hit.

Of course, if what we're talking about is folks with some zany cycle that is going to result in the sacrificing one ability or the other, then yes, this will add up to less WF. (I didn't realize this was the suggestion; I thought we were discussing the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s). With WF being such a feedback system, and considering that picking shocks vs strikes doesn't look like it'll have a 1% benefit in either direction, I'm going to shut up and wallow in my own wasted math.
#6602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
I don't know about this 31 second cycle with shock/stormstrike colliding. For me its occuring damn near every time SS comes up. Teron is a good example of that since I can just stand in one place for 4-5 minutes (if not ghosted) and focus completely on hitting shocks and SS as soon as the cooldown expires, and every single time that SS is off CD I have a shock coming off at the same time.
#6603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.
This is actually not true, even though the character screen says you gain 5 expertise when wielding one axe, doesn't mean it's also applied to your other non axe weapon. The character screen just can't display expertise per hand (yet).
#6604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Toots Hepcat
Malan: Well, research done from this post actually shows two interactions cycling every 31s; the actual interactions occur at 13s and 31s:

0s   FS (CD up at 6s)
1.5  SS (CD up at 11.5s)
6    ES (CD up at 12s)
11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13   FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s)
19   ES (CD up at 25s)
21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s)
25   FS (CD up at 31)
31   ES (GCD up at 32.5)
32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD, then continues as at 1.5s above)
This is using a method we could call "Prioritize whatever's first" (first a shock, then a strike) for a total loss of 1s per cycle per 31s.

If you were to prioritize strikes, you'd see a different cycle resulting in the loss of 2s of shocks per 20 (or 1 whole shock per minute):
0    SS (CD up at 10s)
1.5  FS (CD up at 7.5s)
7.5  ES (CD up at 13.5s)
10   SS (CD up at 22.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13.5 FS (CD up at 19.5s)
20   SS (CD up at 25s)
21.5 ES (off by 2s due to GCD, repeating as 1.5s above)

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/31/08 at 1:13 PM.
#6605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Now try it with a 50ms lag on each end of button push + notification of something being ready, and lets say another 0.75-0.5 sec or so of realizing that something is ready to be pushed.

(Also did you mean to write ES twice in that 2nd example?)
#6606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.
I like.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine).
...
the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s
Yeah, it would be expected that it's 1/5 of your WF procs if you have 2.6 speed weapons and about 75-80% Flurry uptime as well (rather than the 100% I assumed), even before accounting for misses.

I can understand the tendency to want to model everything, but this is (to me) one of those cases where it just doesn't work out. You're essentially dealing with the interaction of two different overlapping timers (SS and shocks), which is easy, but you've also got to take into account another overlapping timer (autoattack) that has a semi-random duration (due to Flurry gaining/fading) which randomly procs another three-second timer. Oh, and don't forget that if WF is on cooldown, that ten second SS timer extends until WF is off cooldown. The fact that there are so many decision points influenced by random variables makes it so that we're not really talking about a simple ten-second timer anymore, and I think the modeling falls flat on its face at this point.

Now, obviously, if WF is on cooldown and shock and SS are both up at the same time, hitting shock is the best idea (since we know that delaying SS for WF to be off cooldown is a DPS increase). However, if WF is not on cooldown, hitting SS is the best idea, because you are looking at more potential damage from that SS. I think we can probably all agree on this, and it makes the discussion (which ability to delay?) rather moot.
#6607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Can I solicit someone to give me an initial/rough writeup that covers Flametongue + Frostbrand?

Oh and also maybe a "brief intro to enhancement" that would cover 'what we bring to the raid' and basically explaining how we're highly tied to gear choices, procs, etc.
#6608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kalamadea
So if it can't be modeled, what's the priority list for Max DPS?

I think from reading WF totem buff > all the rest of our abilities (correct me if I'm wrong).

However, should you drop WF totem but delay dropping GoA for a shock or SS? Or does GoA > personal DPS at that point?

If SS and Shocks are up at the same time and WF is off CD, which should I do first? Which plays into the next question..

If WF is locked out, and SS is up and shocks are going to be off CD at the same time WF is off CD, should I go ahead and SS then shock? Or delay the SS and the shock to get a SS/WF combo?

If I have a moonkin/ele shaman in the raid, should I SS then ES immediately to use my debuff, or FS and let him use up both charges? (I think I know the answer just don't want to give up my 20% dmg boost. >.< )

If I can't model it, at least I'd like to know which is most important to keep up the highest damage.

Edit: Changed an on to an off.

Last edited by Kalamadea : 01/31/08 at 2:33 PM.
#6609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
Malan, did you want it to be an intro to enhancement for new shamans, for raid leaders or explaining the abilitites we possess? I've already started, but I think from a raid leaders perspective they just want a quick and dirty explanation, whereas new shamans might want more in depth stuff.
#6610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Quick and dirty. More like a "so you are considering rolling/taking an enhance shaman ..." sort of thing, 5-10 lines. Literally just an intro for the wiki article.
#6611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
So you’ve found some crazy internet fiend to play an enhancement shaman in your raid. Great, they provide passive AP/Crit buffs from totems and procs, as well as the sought after Windfury all the rogues cry over. They are a HIGHLY proc based class that possess very few active abilities. They can replenish their mana pools based on Attack Power however, which is why you will see a lot of enhancement shaman in leather gear, increasing their crit rate to improve proc rates and increasing their attack power to return more mana per attack as well as straight DPS increases. What you can expect from an enhancement shaman is WF totem (sword spec + AP on a higher proc rate), 90 agility, 100 Str, 10% AP bonus to their group when they crit and a melee class that can heal themselves in a pinch. They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game, are good at kiting single targets that can be snared and are highly versatile in group compositions.

How's That?
#6612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
I agree with Sebudai completly. Theres no reason why you should shock before ss. Look at it this way...

SS has a 10 sec cd and does roughly 1000 damage non crit (500 for each hand)
1000/10=100dps

Flame shock does more damage so we'll use it.
It has a 6 sec cd with about 500 inital damage non crit
Then about 130 damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds(4 ticks)
For a total of 1020 in 12 sec and 760 in 6 seconds.
760/6=126.777dps
1020/12=85dps

Sure the raw dps is greater, but now consider that SS can proc WF and that should be plenty of evidence that SS > Shocks.

In short, if you have your SS and shocks come off of cd at the same time, SS first.
#6613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
#6614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
are good at kiting single targets that can be snared
I actually ended up kiting a ROS blue ghost around the bloodboil trash area for about 2 minutes while my guild screwed around with loot. When I pulled aggro I thought I was toast, but I was able to sheild/SR/earth elemental and get far enough away to start the kite. It was the most fun I've had in BT in weeks, I hope blizzard implements something like that in future raid encounters (more of the tin-man, I guess).

As far as the twisting macro is concerned, I've stayed away from them. There are times when I get behind in the rotation due to lag/reaction speed/etc where it's easier just to skip 3.5s of GoA in order to get a quick heal/warstomp or some other situational thing. An important part of being an enh shaman is maintaining your personal DPS and situational abilities, totem twisting shouldn't interfere with either of these things.
#6615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.
After maintaining an enchant thread for both of the guilds I was previously in, I learnt the wonders of multi-posting things.
Layout looks nice, and I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
#6616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
I like that idea.
#6617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game
Since 2.2 it's not really true, our physical dps (~85% of the total) has the same aggro as a rogue's one. There's always the risk of some big windfury proc right at the first strike, but holding back a few seconds is enough for the tank to generate enough threat.
#6618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
Thanks for the advice, I'll just live with shocking when I can and try and find my own rhythm.
#6619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
#6620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
#6621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
Sure, I just use my base armory stats with DS(since it doesn't add any passives) then add in the appropriate passive stats and adjust the DPS/speed for whatever I'm testing.

AP 1782
Crit 32.77%
Hit 22% (resto sub-spec currently)
Haste 2.35%
Armor pen. 126
Str 201
Agi 332

Buffs/Debuffs
Imp GOTW, FF
Imp Hunter's mark, Expose
Imp scorch
BoK, Imp SotC, Imp BoM
Misery
SoE, GoA, No SS
CoE, Malediction, CoR
Imp BS, Sapphire, SA, BF
Flask, No pots, Clefthoof

The results have been very consistent over several months with many gear changes.
#6622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
#6623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by poofypajamas View Post
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
Because hit rating value is related to your crit rating and AP values. The more you increase crit/AP, the more valuable hit becomes.

edit: about the values, you can always consider using Yo!'s simulator and get your own personalised values
#6624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons.

This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy.

That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago.
#6625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.
Um... isn't this blindingly obvious? WF is not normalized, so you get more WFs per white attack with slower weapons. This is the basis of "shams need slow weapons". Given this fundamental tenet, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the more WFs per white, the more chances to flurry. Or is there some other issue I'm missing that complicates this?
#6651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
#6652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.
So why does the Talon beat Syphon at my gear level?(T6) I'd be really curious to see if someone can post their stats where Syphon ever comes out on top in the sim. Also the stat differences you list in your post are wrong.
#6653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Time to stock up on [Enscribed Fire Opal] and [Shifting Tanzanite].

EFO > Inscribed Noble Topaz already. EFO > BLR if your value for crit is greater than 1.65.

(Given their awful drop percentage, and also how annoying Mana Tombs is, I doubt I'll be stacking either one).
#6654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
The oddball str/agi Coilfang gem will be best for blue sockets(though it already was), don't think anything else would change.
#6655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
#6656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
Ok, but those stats corrected would show it not losing, which is right. I'm just trying to figure out why something that performs better in the sim(which we base everything off) and more people have access to is being passed off as second class. The stats you listed aren't quite right for RT either and also neglect to take weapon speed into account, which is a significant factor.
#6657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
2H haste

Would the DPS be viable for a 2H during with a large amount of haste?
I'm looking to get a torch of the damned. 3.8 atk spd (with 50 haste). If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion the atk speed would be close to 1.75 (plus flurry) dont know exact numbers. with the highest top end in the game and that attack speed would it be viable dps while the haste buffs are up? It also seems that when i have all of my haste buffs and add dragonstrike 212 haste to that for my DW, the speed wastes a lot of white hits while wfcd is up.
#6658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by vaynous View Post
If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion
So you're asking if you'd be viable for 30 seconds every 10 minutes?
#6659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
ya 30 seconds every 10 min
#6660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I mean, you realize how ludicrous that is right?
#6661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
i use all of those items anyway. its either better or worse. what is your opinion?
#6662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
btw im DW when this isnt going on btw. just incase u think im using a 2H the whole time
#6663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
plus flurry and UR would be up when i switch from DW and i have all of my haste buffs
#6664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Hm. You stated you saw this, but I couldn't find the data points. Can I have the combat logs? I'd love to add new data, especially with your consistent low ping, to the thread.
First, a good place to test this are the mobs in the Blasted Lands. Go all out for a while, then let someone taunt. You run ooc. Now you have alle the time you want to attack from behind .

2.6speed, MH 100dps, OH 5dps, 4m:15s runtime, ~50ms (at night I get <30ms )
It's so synced, the hits even swap places sometimes. Two instances, where the hits were 0,4s apart (at 5403+5408). I blame lag. Some mongoose proc were in there too.
5319,465	You	hit	183
5319,767	You	crit	1156
5321,726	You	hit	183
5321,967	You	crit	977
5323,830	You	hit	183
5324,052	You	miss	0
5325,917	You	crit	378
5326,178	You	hit	534
5328,379	You	miss	0
5328,700	You	hit	550
5331,018	You	crit	376
5331,396	You	crit	974
5333,240	You	hit	183
5333,551	You	hit	556
5335,410	You	hit	183
5335,642	You	hit	499
5337,869	You	crit	377
5338,230	You	hit	560
5340,058	You	hit	183
5340,357	You	hit	472
5342,407	You	crit	378
5342,797	You	hit	497
5344,686	You	hit	182
5344,921	You	crit	924
5347,100	You	hit	183
5347,475	You	hit	563
5349,705	You	hit	183
5350,087	You	miss	0
5352,335	You	miss	0
5352,716	You	crit	1029
5354,717	You	hit	183
5354,955	You	crit	1010
5356,786	You	miss	0
5357,138	You	crit	1088
5358,862	You	crit	377
5359,245	You	hit	539
5400,969	You	hit	183
5401,298	You	hit	500
5403,271	You	crit	377
5403,706	You	hit	525
5405,464	You	miss	0
5405,810	You	hit	472
5407,857	You	crit	378
5408,320	You	hit	441
5410,072	You	hit	183
5410,437	You	crit	1125
5412,468	You	hit	183
5412,841	You	crit	989
5414,700	You	hit	183
5415,000	You	hit	468
5416,860	You	crit	377
5417,084	You	hit	443
5419,365	You	hit	183
5419,660	You	crit	938
5421,816	You	hit	183
5421,929	You	hit	547
5423,888	You	hit	183
5424,019	You	hit	471
5426,280	You	miss	0
5426,452	You	crit	976
5428,629	You	crit	377
5428,663	You	hit	547
5430,702	You	hit	183
5430,751	You	hit	542
5433,135	You	miss	0
5433,184	You	hit	518
5435,728	You	hit	184
5435,822	You	hit	472
5438,338	You	hit	183
5438,418	You	hit	489
5440,942	You	hit	183
5441,130	You	hit	521
5443,646	You	hit	183
5443,710	You	hit	543
5446,189	You	hit	183
5446,221	You	hit	474
5448,836	You	miss	0
5448,852	You	miss	0
5451,381	You	hit	468
5451,413	You	miss	0
5454,042	You	miss	0
5454,076	You	hit	533
5456,585	You	crit	1097
5456,618	You	miss	0
5458,670	You	hit	183
5458,702	You	crit	1053
5500,758	You	miss	0
5500,791	You	crit	1015
5502,842	You	hit	183
5502,876	You	hit	459
5504,924	You	crit	377
5504,957	You	hit	553
5507,438	You	crit	1126
5507,472	You	crit	377
5509,720	You	hit	530
5509,738	You	hit	182
5511,791	You	miss	0
5511,825	You	hit	183
5514,333	You	crit	993
5514,351	You	crit	377
5516,628	You	hit	183
5516,661	You	miss	0
5518,701	You	crit	376
5518,735	You	hit	478
5521,121	You	hit	182
5521,153	You	crit	1142
5523,271	You	hit	183
5523,305	You	hit	543
5525,423	You	crit	377
5525,457	You	hit	453
5527,894	You	crit	1162
5527,927	You	hit	183
5530,042	You	hit	184
5530,060	You	crit	915
5532,637	You	crit	378
5532,655	You	crit	1122
5534,877	You	hit	184
5534,895	You	hit	493
5536,961	You	hit	183
5536,980	You	crit	1010
5539,113	You	hit	183
5539,147	You	crit	1006
5541,197	You	crit	377
5541,215	You	crit	1127
5543,273	You	hit	183
5543,292	You	hit	476
5545,358	You	miss	0
5545,377	You	crit	376
5547,477	You	crit	378
5547,494	You	hit	555
5549,557	You	crit	376
5549,575	You	crit	939
5551,638	You	hit	183
5551,659	You	crit	996
5553,719	You	hit	184
5553,738	You	crit	935
5555,801	You	hit	183
5555,819	You	crit	966
5557,945	You	hit	183
5557,962	You	miss	0
5600,018	You	hit	501
5600,052	You	hit	183
5602,535	You	crit	1005
5602,568	You	hit	183
5604,773	You	crit	378
5604,792	You	crit	1061
5606,856	You	hit	183
5606,874	You	hit	504
5608,922	You	crit	985
5608,955	You	crit	378
5611,006	You	crit	971
5611,040	You	hit	183
5613,100	You	crit	377
5613,119	You	hit	532
5615,232	You	miss	0
5615,253	You	crit	1034
5617,671	You	crit	1112
5617,704	You	crit	376
5619,866	You	crit	990
5619,885	You	crit	378
5621,901	You	hit	183
5621,934	You	hit	516
5623,941	You	crit	378
5623,976	You	crit	997
5626,033	You	hit	182
5626,066	You	crit	988
5628,075	You	crit	377
5628,108	You	hit	527
5630,121	You	hit	183
5630,155	You	hit	474
5632,624	You	crit	1042
5632,641	You	miss	0
5634,701	You	hit	183
5634,767	You	hit	477
5636,827	You	hit	444
5636,827	You	crit	377
5638,840	You	crit	1130
5638,859	You	hit	184
5640,871	You	crit	961
5640,904	You	hit	184
5642,990	You	miss	0
5642,990	You	crit	378
5645,403	You	hit	183
5645,403	You	crit	1083
5647,578	You	hit	183
5647,595	You	crit	1009
5649,606	You	hit	184
5649,640	You	crit	999
5651,643	You	miss	0
5651,685	You	hit	465
5653,733	You	crit	1111
5653,752	You	crit	377
5655,849	You	hit	182
5655,882	You	hit	503
5657,929	You	hit	447
5657,961	You	miss	0
5700,366	You	hit	472
5700,399	You	crit	377
5702,614	You	hit	535
5702,632	You	crit	376
5704,697	You	hit	543
5704,761	You	hit	182
5706,820	You	hit	554
5706,854	You	hit	183
5709,463	You	hit	503
5709,463	You	hit	183
5712,101	You	hit	464
5712,135	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	447
5717,321	You	miss	0
5717,338	You	crit	946
5719,554	You	hit	183
5719,573	You	hit	559
5721,668	You	hit	182
5721,701	You	crit	1138
5723,768	You	hit	183
5723,786	You	hit	553
5725,831	You	crit	378
5725,867	You	hit	530
5728,268	You	hit	184
5728,301	You	miss	0
5730,924	You	hit	183
5730,926	You	crit	1047
5733,118	You	hit	183
5733,151	You	crit	971
5735,198	You	hit	183
5735,231	You	crit	1080
Link to Log (Excel)

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 02/01/08 at 4:21 PM.
#6665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks much for the link. Downloading the Office 2k7 compatability pack now to open the xlsx file.
#6666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Oh, I forgot about Excel2007. I changed the link to 2003/97.
#6667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
It's no prob, I needed to install the converter anyway. Get with the times, all that stuff ;-)

So, I opened it, and I guess the part that makes it difficult for me is that I can't see the flurry or mongoose or other procs. I'm sure you did a fine job in taking those into account, but with the raw data missing, I have trouble reconciling what you're seeing with what I saw in that other thread.

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
#6668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
Uh, look at the bottom. The original is there too.
#6669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
My question above was not thorough enough.

I am DW for the encounter and for a short period of time, i.e. when flurry and UR are proc'ed and when i have used a haste potion 400 haste (10 second duration), Drums of Battle 80 haste and Bloodlust is it viable to switch to a 2H weapon such as Torch of the Damned 3.8 atkspd with 50 haste rating. Considering that with Dragonstrike proc adding an additional 212 haste rating, that would result in too many white hits. Basically is the 2H fast enough with the haste buffs? Or do the added white hits still outweigh the possible dps of the 2H with the increased speed? (I understand that this is a very short amount of time, I'm bored and I was just curious).
#6670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rapparee
I too am confused on your theorycrafting about the torch of the damned if fully hasted out the wazoo.....

On the front end it looks like you're just high. So let's look at some math and see what we get.

General assumptions: you kick it new-school with either S3 weapons or Torch of the Damned.
You have enough haste with Torch to hit 1.75s speed (for 30seconds, you've got double length haste pots and a horseshoe up your ass, whatever it takes).
Your S3 weapons instead of 2.6 would be 2.6/1.4(bloodlust)/1.25(flurry-it's permanent due to that horseshoe for luck)/**whatever haste -50 **

Near as I can tell, Your torch set of gear would have to be 378haste.
3.8/1.4/1.25/1.2411 = 1.75
24.107% haste *15.68ish = 378ish haste

Your S3 weapons are rolling in 50 haste slower or...
2.6/1.4/1.25/1.2092 = 1.23

Supposedly you instantly switch weapons to the Torch of the Damned as you cast lust + all that other hulabaloo... but I'm going to go ahead and say that you lose 1.75seconds + 1.23seconds of attacks out of a 31.23 second due to weapon swaps upsetting your swing timer. Perhaps I'm totally wrong on this count and you don't really lose these times. But I'm going to go ahead and assume that the swing timer resets.
Naturally the S3 weapons lose no time, since you would not be switching them around for that scenario.

TORCH OF THE DAMNED:
You get 17 hits, first one at 1.75 seconds, last one at 29.75seconds.
You get 3 stormstrikes (5% miss rate, out of your 20hits, i'm taking 1 away)
You get 4 windfuries, sorry buddy, but at 20% chance and only 20ish possible hits, 4 is your max.

S3 -VENGEFUL WEAPONS OF FAR TOO GOOD FOR PVE:
You'd get 25MH hits, 25OH hits, first two at 0.615seconds, last one at 30.135. I did the first hit at halfway through a hasted swing cycle, since you didn't switch weapons and the last hit is that free hit that not switching weapons gives you.
You get 3 stormstrikes (i'm going to say you miss 15%, so instead of 28MH, 28OH, it's 24 each)
You get 6 windfuries (roughly 48 chances at 20% is 9.6 WFs, There must be collision due to 3.0seconds so I took away 3 and truncated just to be brutal, we'll make 3MH, 3OH for simplicity)

Let's assume that there's no additional procs going on... no double mongoose of the executed dragonspine tsunamis.
You've got 3000 AP
Torch average hit = 496.5+814, 1310.5. average WF = 623APbonus so 1479.6
S3 average hit = 268+557, 825MH 412.5OH. average WF = 940.7MH, 528.2OH (the WF's AP is not halved for OH hits, as far as I remember)

TORCH TOTAL= 19*1310.5+8*1479.6 = 36717
S3 VENGEFUL TOTAL = 24MH*825+24OH*412.5+6MH*940.7+6OH*528.2=38519

Sorry, but that's 2000 damage in 30seconds... roughly speaking it's 5% more damage to stay dual wield. with my goofy assumptions.

shoot someone caught me while i was editting in some miss chances... i added in some miss chances to make it slightly more realistic. (as if 100% flurry was realistitc)

Last edited by Rapparee : 02/01/08 at 5:53 PM.
#6671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Isn't this all based on the idea that the 2H would hit on every attack as well? You have to factor in that you're losing 6% hit because you aren't dual wielding any more. Wouldn't one miss pretty much ruin the potential DPS benefit?
#6672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
Thank you kind sir.

Although I am not high, I would much rather be high than be on speed and PCP which is very obvious you are.
#6673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
I'm confused as to where this is going. Dual wielding does more damage than using a two-handed weapon regardless of the amount of haste you have. I don't see how haste somehow scales better with a two-handed weapon than it would while dual wielding.

Maybe I'm dumb. Please explain.
#6674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
#6675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krom[Fenris]
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.

Last edited by Krom[Fenris] : 02/01/08 at 8:32 PM.
#6678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sancho
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
At my current EP values, 5 crit is about equal to 4 str, and I'd much rather have the stam than the mp5. I don't think its worth noting.
#6679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.
Yes.
Yes.
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
#6680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3CeNo65
2.8 vs 2.6

i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
#6681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by CeNo65 View Post
i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
#6682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by rava View Post
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
#6683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
#6684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
#6685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
'lo,

our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings,
We had a semi-decent try at it this week (but got unlucky with who got ghosts, so DPS dropped significantly ) and I was wondering after reviewing our WWS about trinket choice.

Khaelyn - WWS

This is the WWS. I had 3 Tsunami Talisman procs with Fury of the Crashing Waves and 4 DST Procs (-2 Haste buffs from Haste Potions).

The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
#6686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
That wasn't the intent, but I thought it was a given. I had my weapons in the first few days and it was hell, something that I am definitely not looking forward to whenever S4 hits. The system is amazing imo, not being limited by boss drops or weapon selection is just fantastic. If only they'd move bosses to a pure token system so the 3984892th zhardoom and 834292th cursed vision aren't de'd while we're sitting on 2 skulls, 3 rings, and a single offhand glaive after nearing 7 months of farm. /rant

Anyways, back on topic! The comparisons were to show the silly man that ignoring stat gains on weapons is retarded and leaving out xyz variable will give improper results.
#6687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
With a decent team with the right matrix(war/pal/sham, druid/x/sham) 1850 is really easy. But finding a team already at 1900~2k, and playing 30ish games(winning most) will get you 1850 in a few hours; it's what I ended up doing.
#6688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
'lo,
The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
I use a BC for that exact reason, so i can pop it when i use other cooldowns like haste pots, heroism, drums etc. Personally stacking buffs like that give me really good results, which is why I doubt i'll bother getting a MoTB/TT. The next trinket I'll get will be the sunwell one with expertise and on hit AP inc (If those loots do actually turn out to be true).
#6689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Question for twisters concerning the overlapping shock cd/wf reapplication.

I've been trying a different rotation to see a DPS improvement(SS, WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES, WF, GoA, FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES, so on) and I had one of the rogues yell at me that WF fell off their weapon. I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock. So here's the math I did, tried to explain everything as best as I could.

Rogue DPS gain from WF:
Looking over a WWS, keep in mind this is without kings/battle shout/blood frenzy/flask/food so number is higher, but this is the only reliable info that I have.

max hit = 906(number is actually lower, but this is the closest thing to an actual WF hit I can get)
21% glance = 65%
6% dodge = 0%
36% crit = 200%
5% miss = 0%
32% normal = 100%

100 hits

21*906*.65 = 12366.9
+36*906*2 = 65232
+32*906 = 28992

= 106590.8(total)/100(# of swings) = 1065.9 damage per swing average

1065.9*.2(WF proc chance) = 213.18 dps(wing)

2.6speed mainhand/1.35(snd with 2 piece t6) = 1.92 so you are outside of <1.5 window where 2 swings could occur during the global

213.18*2(# of rogues) = 426.36

Warrior DPS gain from WF:
Have to go back a ways so numbers may not be entirely accurate here, our warrior has been busy with school/job so he hasn't been raiding. This is without flask/food.

max hit = 1590
29% glance = 65%
2% dodge = 0%
38% crit = 200%
8% miss = 0%
23% normal = 100%

100 hits

29*1590*.65 = 29971.5
+38*1590*2 = 120840
+23*1590 = 36570

= 187381.5(total)/100(# of swings) = 1873.81 damage per swing average

1873.81*.2(WF proc chance) = 374.76 dps(wing)

3.5 speed weapon/1.15(33/28 spec, 3/5 flurry) = 3.04 speed, well outside of the window

using 15d/4c+fs/2 = 15(1873.81)/4(274.7) + 3.5*3.5/2 = 31.77 rage, going to go with a single extra heroic strike, I'm pretty sure 2+ would delay the auto slam ms auto slam ww thing

1623 average hit hs
38% crit
5% dodge
57% normal = 2158.59 average damage, which changes 1873.81*.2 to (1873.81+2158.59)2, or 806.48dps(wing), but this is where I get tripped up. There's a >50% chance that missing the global on WF won't have any bearing on the warriors DPS, so do I halve this number?

If so I'm looking at 403.24 for a warrior, bringing the total of 2 rogues + 1 warrior to 829.6 dps from WF. This does not take Sword spec into account because I am entirely too lazy to try and figure out the math on that and obviously the rogue DPS would be a bit higher with a sensible group. If I were to ballpark the DPS gain from 829 to 1000(170, 85 dps per rogue) with blood frenzy and shout would that be sensible? Even then I'm seeing shocking as a better alternative to WF for that global as my average ES hovers around 1300 and FS around 825/267 ticks.
#6690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings

I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
Definitely, you're looking to push that fight down to 2-3 minutes so you'll want to shed trinkets that have a long internal cooldown.
#6691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well, the reason I was wondering is that I had more Tsunami procs than I would have BC activations. I was doubting - maybe the stats of TT would outweigh BC's extra AP I'd get.
#6692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Hi all, didn't see this discussed in here (and maybe it shouldn't be, but we'll get to that later). However, it's certainly something that I feel would be worth some intense theorycrafting. I also chose to ask in this forum instead of the elemental forum because of everyone's familiarity with enhance gear.

I also think that this is probably not a viable option for raiding, but I've been curious ever since the mental quickness change.

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

I became curious about this from hearing some elemental shamans that I know (who do very good dps) complain about the difficulty in breaking 1000 spell damage, and my own experience as enhance still having over 700 spell damage buffed in pre-T5 gear.

With all of the buffs to AP that can be applied to a shaman, is it possible to break 3333 AP?

Barring that, what would the dps be of a person in melee range, with melee weapons, using WF and auto attack (prolly it would be MH + caster dps off-hand OR a 2H weapon) who was spamming LB?

How much DPS would they need to achieve from auto-attacks in order to make up for the lost dps from not speccing fully into elemental? How much DPS would they need from their lightning bolts in order to make up for not speccing fully into enhance?

Would it be possible to make a character with this spec viable for raiding? (I expect this to be a no, but I'm still very curious)

Seems to me that the gear would need to be max STR and AP, have just enough hit to break the yellow damage hit cap (5% I think), and the play style would have to allow for melee and caster dps at the same time (assuming an auto attack in between every lightning bolt or every other lightning bolt, depending on weapon speed).

Obviously, you can get more +spell damage from wearing all caster gear, but then your melee attacks would hit for nothing (and most casters don't melee ever anyway). The point of this spec would be to have melee still be a significant portion of the dps of the character (LB would still take the lion's share though - I imagine). Likewise, you could gear and spec for full enhance, but then you'd be enhance and not melemental. There, I've created a good name for the spec, too.

Additionally, and I think this would probably be the biggest factor killing the spec: Would it be possible to sustain dps without completely running out of mana? Would threat be an issue without spirit weapons (and having to fight in melee range)?

I'm thinking that if you can do 2/3 of the damage of an ele shaman with full enhance gear on, that your melee auto-attacks with WF would easily make up the additional 1/3. But I haven't tried the spec and I don't really have the full STR + AP gear that would allow me to maximize a melemental spec.

Anyway, have fun with this one.
#6693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Unaz
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
Anyway, have fun with this one.
You either won't have the AP to sustain the spell damage, or won't have the mana to sustain the lightning bolts. And if you're meleeing in between while waiting on mana, your melee will run dry with that few points in Enhance.

You also won't have Totem of Wrath, or Unleashed Rage. Which are major reasons for having a shaman in your group.

Edit: Or weapon mastery, or DW unless you meant 28/33 instead of 33/28

Last edited by Unaz : 02/02/08 at 2:24 PM.
#6694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
# of procs themselves is great, but you also need to consider buff duration. BC is 20s, Tsunami is 10s, so now you'd need at least 3 TT procs to give about an equal amount of AP/s as well as modelling the other stats the items give. Assuming the items both 'go off' at exactly their CD end AND right @ 0:00 you can model an ideal situation (with everything else being equal) and if you want, take a sample and create a % proc coefficient for TT (BS would be 100% since its an on use trinket). No you're never going to get 2 boss attempts ever to have all things being equal to start building a statistical database, so all the theorycraft goes out the window and we come round to it being totally chance based and reliant on TT going off ASAP.

EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
#6695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

Anyway, have fun with this one.
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
#6696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Nor would you have the mana pool or regen to sustain it.
#6697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ frmorrison
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
Also if you cast a spell made instant (via 2 Tier 5 or Nature's Swiftness) that is not normally instant, it also resets the swing timer.
#6698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Felt like messing with Google Spreadsheets and I made a spreadsheet template for using Yo's simulator that does the averages for you and formats an enhancer string with the averaged values. I think the permissions are set so you can copy it and use the template for yourself.

Google Docs - AEP Averager
#6699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
Alright, thanks. I ran it 6 times at 10,000 hours each and came up with the following:

AP 1 / Crit 1.91 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.91 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.20 / Agi 1.85 / Expertise 3.40

I'm going to guess 6 runs of it is enough but I could be wrong. Currently my haste is valued the same as crit, very interesting.
#6700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by rava View Post
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
You left out the syphon shadow damage, which is somewhere between 0 and 5DPS per syphon (my average is 3.5ish). Which tips the favor to Syphon for high AC mobs. But like you said, as soon as one tacks in another item or two with more AC reduction it swings even more in the favor of the vengeful weapons.
#6801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
The problem is that the non-set is better at every step of the way. T6 only comes close when you add in the +70 AP set bonus. So for every piece of gear you grab until 4/5 T6, non-set is a lot better choice, then at 4/5 T6, non-set is a little better, then once you are in Sunwell and start losing T6, non-set is a lot better.
#6802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
The looks was just a joke...

Disregarding that, I prefer Tier 6 because it offers me more survivability for a little drop in DPS. It's also a hell of a lot easier to keep up Twisting with the added intellect. Don't get me wrong, I know you can sustain Twisting with the other set too (I've done it before) but the t6 gives me a little more leeway with it in case we have no Ret Paladin with us and JoW falls off. All in all it depends on my mood. If I want to break DPS records, I'll use nonset. If I want a calm evening with a little more leeway to survive AoE damage and whatever you want to name, I'll wear Tier 6.
#6803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
I talked about the small difference between FIVE piece t6 + mail drops (teron boots, ros belt) and all the random leather gear (hydross shoulder, vashj belt) a few pages back, with "perfect" gear in a perfect situation, the difference is around 5% dps or 60-80 dps.

Comparing the raw stats, you could think it should be a much bigger difference. But i did several (about 8-10 each) 50.000 hours simulations to proof this.

WoW Digger Profile

-Mail-
AP 1730
Crit 31.55
Hit 14.84
ArP 350
Haste 0%
Exp 0%
(+ ~ 3.000 mana to spent for twisting and +1.21% spellcrit)

-Leather-
AP 1828
Crit 34.41
Hit 11.54
ArP 350
Haste 2.35%
Exp -2%

Comparing items, which are on the same itemlevel but on our ep comparisons 20-30% better/worse and have in the end only such a small impact on your possible max dps makes me sad. There is no real need to buff tier 6, nor a season 3 over a bt weapon or cursed vision over tier 4 helmet improves our dps by such a wide margin like it does for other dps classes. It might feel better from looking at the back of your character and seeing differend shoulder design every few month, but my dps didn't jump like mad since i got my t4/t5 gear, but our rogues/fury ones did. Don't understand my wrong, i don't wand to make this post a whining post, just wanted to support Illundai claim by a personal note.
#6804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Also, look at my avatar and tell me I'm sacrificing looks for dps. Non-set has the total package, pal!
http://i30.tinypic.com/1onb5y.jpg > uggo orc

I am totally a replacement healer on raids. Every eye beam went on one side last week so I got to spam chain heal for 4 minutes. The beauty and glory of the yellow beams was overwhelming. Almost as overwhelming as a plastic bag,
#6805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.

PS: Raevii?
#6806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.
Misunderstanding from both sides, which is okay. Maybe marginally small is exaggerated, but I honestly think it matters very little - it's personal flavour. Do you like the extra stam/int? Or do you not care and want to push DPS all the time? It's a bit like the Ele vs Resto discussion.
#6807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bragor
Looking like a clown > Looking Cool

Coming up as 2nd-3rd on Dps > Looking Cool

Huzzah !

P.S. Just for kicks

Pics of My own

Last edited by Bragor : 02/07/08 at 2:59 PM. Reason: Resizing
#6808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
I know this isn't theorycrafting, but damn Bragor, that is really a clown suit.
Wish I had some actual numbers to support/disprove T6 as a replacement. But all I've got is the same thing I harp on all the time.

STAMINA: tier 6 swims in the stuff.
Tier6 offers a gigantic bucket of stamina over the best non-tier pieces, and it reduces the cost of your shocks. These two benefits make it very appropriate for fighting the Illidari council where you won't get anywhere near a full shamanistic rage's worth of mana back.

YOUR RAID: our loot rules and raid luck have left me in non-tier healing pieces, ymmv.
Your raid's luck and loot rules will influence whether you wear cursed vision and midnight chest much, much, much more than whether non-set provides 100DPS more or just 20DPS more than taking tier6.
We've had 1 cursed vision drop and zero midnight chestguards, we only killed vashj 6 times or so, zero belts/shoulders but dammit we literally got 7 cobra-lash boots out of 6 kills (ok, that's an exaggeration).

Pretty soon, you'll get 3 tier6 tokens, but Archi will drop the same damn 2handed sword and bow again... week after week. Your rogues already 2 bristles each, but there it is again... If it wasn't for attunements, you'd have sold Archimonde slots to pug hunters because the bow will drop.... sorry for the rant.
#6809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Whodi
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
#6810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
WFT is the best hostage ever.

With the new talents the t6 2p is pretty much useless, I'm hoping the 6.5 itemization will be a little better.
#6811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by drats View Post
WFT is the best hostage ever.
QFT. Since we mostly just do 10-mans, our "melee" group is really me, tanking warrior, feral druid, sword rogue, hunter. The rogue and I get along wonderfully, but I still threaten to take WF away from him when he does something stupid. It works every time.
#6812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
I have a question here. I have used the simulator but apparently cannot get the answer I want.

I am looking for a comparison between these two helms.

[Storm Helm] -- This is socketed with 3 [Bold Living Ruby] and the CE head enhant.

Overall Stats with helm equipped:

Strength: 359
Agility: 302
Stamina: 593
Intellect: 247
AP: 1550
Hit: 125
Crit: 30.49%

VERSUS

[Gladiator's Linked Helm] -- This is socketed with 1 [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] [Inscribed Noble Topaz] and the CE head enhant.

Strength: 373
Agility: 314
Stamina: 623
Intellect: 219
AP: 1534
Hit: 125
Crit: 31.33%

Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.

Thank you for your help.
#6813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
It's rolled twice. I have have on more than one occation dispelled 3 buffs with 2 casts. (1 first time, 2 more second time).
This is regarding purge.

EDIT: Learn to refresh
#6814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.

His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."

He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.

Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
#6815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
I am looking for a comparison between these two helms.
Hey, it's cool if you can't figure out tools like the simulator, because there are even easier tools that don't involve us doing your math homework. They're much less accurate, but they're easy. Go to MaxDPS.com - Enhancement Shaman DPS Gear Rankings and enter your stats. Notice how the one helm is really far down the list, and the other is sort of near the top? Guess which one's better!
#6816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.

Thank you for your help.
The Gladiator's helm with the meta will provide superior DPS. Even without the 3% crit damage, the overall AP/hit/crit stats point toward better damage with the Gladiator's helm. Add in the additional effect from the meta, and it gets even better. Hope that helps.



Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.

His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."

He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.

Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
Have him kindly point his raid leader to this thread and some math showing how to determine what gear is better than others. If my raid leader didn't trust that I know what I was doing upgrading from [Beastmaw Pauldrons] to [Wastewalker Shoulderpads] before I had ZA shoulders, I'd be Looking For Guild. Similarly, if his raid leader doesn't understand that an enhancement shaman brings his actual DPS + the sum of the DPS from buffs he gives his group, and that sometimes he is willing to sacrifice his own damage for the betterment of the raid, I'm very surprised they've gotten as far as they have. I'd also be Looking For Guild.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/07/08 at 5:35 PM.
#6817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Ballpark "dps" for end-game bosses

Hello everyone. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to maybe add ballpark sustained dps figures to the wiki or this post for various end-game boss fights for people to use as a comparison.

Given average T5/T6 gear, and using the idea melee group listed on page one, is there a shaman out there who has a lot of WWS data available to provide these numbers?

E.g.

Teron Gorefiend: 1600 dps
Illidari Council: 1100 dps
etc.

Of course, dps changes from fight to fight depending on many factors including your gear, your group, etc, but thats why im stressing "ballpark" figures.

Good idea? Terrible idea?

Cheers all.
#6818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Sebudai probably has enough parses to give a good average on that kind of thing. I would have had enough too, if it wasn't for WWS deleting about 90% of my parses yesterday, so I only have about 3 weeks worth of parses >.>
#6819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Problem is the extreme differences between a guild farming BT and just having killed Illidan.
#6820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Problem is the extreme differences between a guild farming BT and just having killed Illidan.
Very true. And many other constraints like your group makeup, your gear level, tank threat generation, etc, etc.

I suppose that's why i suggested ball park values, perhaps even ranges.

So assuming threat's not an issue, its not your first kill, you have T5/T6 gear, and you're in an ideal Melee group:

Teron Gorefiend: 1500 - 1800 dps.
Illidan: 1 - 1600 dps

Or something like that.
#6821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well I can give you numbers if all else fails, but I don't have more than 2 or 3 parses per boss.
#6822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Teron depends extremly on your fight lengths. How many heroism/drums/hastepots/trinket cooldowns you can use in this time and so on.

Twisting on Teron, Rage and Anetheron with your gear level, a fury warrior's battle shout OR a feral's lotp, zero drums or haste potions, no recklessness or expose armor and one heroism during an 5-6 minute fight -> 1000 dps.
Council 850 dps without twisting.
Mother 750 dps without twisting (for obvious reasons).

But why don't you ran the simulator and multiply the given dps with 0.8 (20% human error) or check the huge wws pool for some data.

Rage: If you have a lot of death and decay on your tank, you can't dps.
Anetheron: If you have all of the infernals on the melees, you have to save your ass.
Council: If you can't trust your camphealer for any reason (eg. they struggle or they are dead), have a lot of aoe in melee range beside the consecrate, you can't dps.

If someone didn't keep up an important buff all the time and you didn't realise it, the data will be corrupted.

If you can't reach the given number or break them easily, it says nothing. Did you shock enough and didn't break the record? Critluck was with everyone expect you? I have some parses with over 50% critrate and another log with +- 10 seconds lengths of the fight, same gear and makeup and 15% less crit.

Could continue forever but i hope you got it.
#6823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Could continue forever but i hope you got it.
Loud and clear. Ill try to scrape together some averages from the public WWS data available once the WWS site gets a little more stable (laggy for anyone else?). I would just like to see some averages, under normal circumstances, average fight durations, etc. Just something new shamans can use as an anchor in analyzing their own WWS reports (as opposed to linking them here :P).

Cheers
#6824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tatonka
does anyone have an aep value for the 4 pc t6 set bonus?
#6825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
~70EP

Little lower if you dont SS every 10-12s.

Yo's sim gives 62ep. w/o expertice gear if you wait 3s wf cd.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/07/08 at 8:20 PM.
#6851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.
That was pretty much my take on the WWS he posted as well. Considering the difference in gear between he and I, I'm consistently at about 1400-1450 on Teron, so when he said he was getting 1400 I was shocked. Even at 1358 I'm still surprised, since I would expect the gearing differences, weapons especially, to be more than 100 dps between he and I.
#6852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
What is the daily BG?
Offtopic for this thread, but here's a guide.
#6853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If your tank is good or your gear is bad you can open with Stormstrike, Flame Shock, totems, Earth Shock. If your tank needs time to grab aggro, drop totems first (WF if he's a warrior, it will give you more room on threat) and then start in on the DPS.
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.
#6854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
Too be honest I've never attempted to outrange it, I usually use deviates to minimize my FA hitbox.
Just never get silenced more than a handful of times.

I'm silenced for like half the time during that fight, granted i barely wear any SR, but it's one of the most annoying twisting situations in the world (next to being ele/enhance with a hunter in your group).
#6855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.
I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something), SoE, wf, GoA, SS, then start my shock cycles. I also blow trinkets/haste pot/drums/heroism off the first 5 seconds of most fights as well, so i like to get all the buffs up since SoE/GoA/WFT scale so well with the haste I'm giving the group.
#6856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak. That's the wonderful and the terrible thing about Windfury. Sometimes you get lucky at it procs wonderfully and you hit big crits every time. Sometimes it doesn't proc all that well and you get rather mediocre crits. Of course the slumps can be mitigated by rolling with 2.6 speeders and whatnot, but you can still hit huge valleys for certain fights as well as huge peaks.

I've done entire SSC/TK runs where my damage was 100-200/300 DPS off my norm with no changes from the previous week. I'm talking same buffs, personnel, everything equal.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.
I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?). I had a pretty bad streak on WF crits and SS crits. I'm almost at 33% crit unbuffed, and with kings and lotp I'm around 40. Let's add dual mongoose uptime and I'm closer to 45% than 35%.

I know the nature of procs and specials you use less often can vary alot, but it was clearly not like they were in my favor.

Why can't you use my log that I posted and tell me why we should just brush it off as luck instead of just doing what you're doing now. Implying.

Or, let's just wave it off as a lucky shot so we can make you happy. .

---

Illundai: The only reason I posted here to begin with was because I thought that 1000 DPS was the low end a enh shammy should do at Teron. I'd expect someone who has raided as enhancement up to Teron would have better gear than me, and while I produced 1350 DPS I questioned it - which wasnt very welcome obviously...

Also, just for fun, I plugged my values into Yo!s sim (10 000 hours), and let me see if I got this right:

Buffs and stuff to begin with:
gotw
lotp
FF
EW
Kings
imp might
Misery
SoE - Some other guy eating my SS.
CoE
Maledection
CoR
BS
SA
Commanding Pressence
and a Flask.

Double Mongoose
Hourglass
RED
Earth+Fire

1 AP = 1 EP?
1 EP = 0.3121 DPS (for me)

5% crit = 110 crit rating. Crit has a value of 1.78 for me.

5% = 61.8 EP for me in that case?

61.8 EP = 19.3 DPS? (0.3121 modifier)

Am I off on this? Can you even translate it like this?
If so, that would mean lotp would give me some 20~ DPS. That's not bad, but it's not really close to 100 (in my case).
#6857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
I just entered Kyuki yuor numbers + buffs + debuffs to YO's I also accounts bloodlust time + drums + 40shock/4:32.
1280 DPS w/o searing.

Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps

Luck was +80dps factor.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/08/08 at 7:42 PM.
#6858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
I'm not that great with the tool, but how can you do that?
I just implemented my pure stats, and the buffs that I said in my previous post, and did a 10000 and came out with 1377 DPS, that would disclude any use of drums and bloodlust no?

Would love to know how you can see can add bloodlust and time spent in combat and all that.
#6859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
23:13'10.263 Smallo's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 150 (glancing) (6 resisted)
23:13'20.470 Kyuki's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 621

4:42 - 10s = 4min32s
Bloodlust is 40s
Drums...

You can calculate avarage haste and put it to haste box.(its not best way model it but its do the job)
#6860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Oki, did you then do DPS over a course of 4.32 in the sim?

And
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps
Thanks, obvious mistake on my math there...
#6861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Okey, you can't do it for a 4.32 min duration, I get it now... Sorry.

Is my math wrong if Heroism of 4.32 min is 8.4% average Haste?
#6862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
I tryed do my best to emulate short fight with CD usage + buff modelling.

Edit: 40 / 272 * 0.4 = 5.9%
#6863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Did another sim for DPS, added exactly what I had buffwise in the raid, and removed what I didnt have.
Added exact value for my stats.

If heroism comes out as 8.4% average at 4.32 min fight I came out with 1438 DPS and I did not add the Drums haste.

Remove Searing Totem and I come out with 1371 DPS.

Luck factor was -12 DPS.
#6864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
What exactly are you discussing right now? I can't believe what I'm seeying.

First of all, modelling a xx:xx duration fight with the sim, including haste and all of that is never going to be accurate. It's a moot point to say: "HAH THE SIM SAYS I DID TOO LITTLE OR TOO MUCH DPS!".
Second of all, whats the big deal? He did 1400 dps with his crappy gear, good for him. He had buffs you didn't have perhaps, he had debuffs you didn't have perhaps. His WWS is tainted maybe, who knows. It's hardly relevant to anything to just start analyzing his WWS or his theoretical DPS. What IS relevant is to ask what he did different from you perhaps.

Next to all of that, I have a hard time believing 5% crit is only 60 DPS. For me, having LOTP or not having LOTP is huge.
#6865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Aye, my formula was off again...

Redid it again, and came out with 1350 sharp without Searing totem and no drums.

Am I right now? Sounds like I was close to Sim value on this fight then.
#6866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Illundai, I'm discussing about myself. Was me who did the 1400 DPS with my crappy gear...

I just want to know why it was brushed off as luck, and that's all.

Also, Lotp gave me those value. Obviously I do 1k less DPS than you on Teron Gorefiend. I'm sure lotp gives you a higher DPS value.
#6867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?)
Yes, I did. And I said as much up above. I compared it to several of my own, and stated my conclusions.

which wasnt very welcome obviously...
Welcome had nothing to do with it. You stated that you had a DPS value which I thought was odd because it was above my own averages, and minus 1-2 items of gear I'd say that on average I out gear your enhancement set. Thats why we asked for the WWS parse. And lo and behold, your initial figure was wrong.

Nobody is attacking you here, but you're being overly defensive.


By the way, you didn't have any drums at all on that parse, so drop those out of your theoretical numbers from the sim.
Kyuki - WWS
#6868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I wasn't talking about just you, there were plenty of people who couldn't believe you would do 1400 DPS. I'm pretty sure I did 1400 with the kind of gear you're wearing too. I switched to Enhancement after being Resto for a looooong time after killing Illidan, wearing Tier 4 and I did 1200 dps on Teron multiple times.
#6869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).
#6870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).
First of all, you are NOT the fury. There's a guy in my guild that runs an alt elemental shammy and he brought it into TK the other week with nothing but Kara gear and out-dpsed everyone but the rogues and I.

Second of all, nobody is knocking you at all. In fact, doing anywhere near that DPS on Teron (whom I haven't gotten to yet) is spectacular. Congrats!

Third of all, your assertion was that 1000 DPS was the "low" end for DPS on Teron. You then used your own experience as justification for that assertion. Well, everyone else knows what they did on him and obviously it was around what you were, but with better gear. Thus the reasonable conclusion that you had a fairly lucky streak going, especially since you yourself said that you were undergeared for the attempt. Your attempt got critiqued because it was what we had to go on.

There really isn't a "low" end for any fight. There's going to be enhancement shamans in BT pimping 1.5 speed OH daggers and with +hit gems all throughout their gear. For the people that follow the advice on this site maybe 1000 DPS is low, tho I would guess anything 1000+ is good for anyone making the attempt considering that most people are going to vary wildly on gear even when attempting Teron.

Finally, chill out bro! Obviously you know what you're doing to pimp that much DPS on Teron, luck or no. Thanks for making the Enhance Shammy population proud and smoke a bowl or two so next time when you throw up a post you don't freak out when someone doesn't slobber all over how swell it was.
#6871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that?
My advice there was tuned to a 5-man instance. If you're moving quickly from pull to pull, yes, I do Stormstrike before I hit totems. In a raid, it depends. Do I have time to set up (e.g. Illidan)? Then of course I drop my totems first. If not, I may drop my totems on the run in if positioning dictates that I can (e.g. Hydross, where it's beneficial, or Naj'entus, where it doesn't matter) or I may wait until I'm on top of the boss before I drop totems (e.g. Archimonde, where I am worried about getting in the right position first). Obviously, I'll also open with FS if that's a smart idea. Overall, though, supposing we're talking about the last case, where you can either start DPS *or* drop totems, I definitely think it makes sense to at least get your autoattack going because it will be doing damage during the 4x1.5s GCDs where you're dropping totems, and I guarantee that the impact of you getting 4 white attacks and a possible WF proc is greater than the impact of that last totem being up slightly later. I have one key bound to "/cast Stormstrike /startattack", so I usually do open with Stormstrike before I even autoattack.
Originally Posted by Dukanull
I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something)
My understanding is that if you turn on autoattack when you're not in range, you will attack first with the OH and if you are running two 2.6 speed weapons that gives your OH more WF procs over time. Stormstrike should not have this problem unless you use it when you're not in range (in which case autoattack would still have the problem).
#6872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Ahh, O_O

I still think 1k DPS is the lower end of what a enh shammy should do at Teron. :P
#6873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Rob
1k DPS seems like a reasonable low end for Gorefiend to me, assuming you're not getting a free ride and are at a reasonable gear level given that your guild is at Teron.

Looking at my IM logs to my friend, on Jan 22nd I managed 1612 DPS, and I don't think my gear is that great. Buffs besides my own were BS, ret paladin, and 1 drums use, and I was twisting. I don't know what I got last week, but it was probably in the neighborhood of 1400 I'd guess. Didn't do Gorefiend this week.

Not that any of this really matters, but I wouldn't crucify the guy for suggesting that 1k DPS is a good floor on that particular fight.

Last edited by Rob : 02/08/08 at 10:51 PM.
#6874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
OK, here's about the only relevant 2.4 change to our DPS:
Warriors
* Flurry will properly refresh if a crit occurs with 1 charge left.

When PTRs come up, we need to ensure that applies to us as well.
#6875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
* Call of Thunder: (Rank 5) now gives 5% critical strike chance.
Is this a typo?
#6951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
Run Yo's sim instead of asking here, I can bet its been asked before so search would also be a good idea but you really should get used to running the sim since the EP values will change over time and you shouldnt rely on the ones listed in the OP other than as a general guideline.

Oh btw: to really consider using fast OH with FT you really should have a 1.5 or faster weapon. Malchazeen is def. too slow to really make this an option.
#6952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pebblecrusher
Yes section 1 says WF is best on both weapons. Yet section 3.2.2 says FT is better on a fast weapon such as Malchazeen. Figured the specific info was better than the generalized.

I'll look into the sim. Thanks.
#6953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Malan
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
[e] see below

Last edited by Malan : 02/11/08 at 12:36 AM.
#6954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pebblecrusher
Valid points.

Edit:
So far the simulator shows higher DPS using Decapitator MH and Fool's Bane OH using WF on both. I set up using the simplest scenario. Basically had to. My trinkets are not listed and neither are the enchants I have or can afford atm. Very nice tool.

Last edited by Pebblecrusher : 02/11/08 at 12:19 AM.
#6955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
#6956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Malan
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
Its late and I'm dumb.

Last edited by Malan : 02/11/08 at 12:56 AM.
#6957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
Coming from a guy who is still doing pug Gruul raids for DST (Saw it drop 6 times.. lost all 6 even with rolling 95 in one of them)... LFG Heroic Magister's Terrace.
#6958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.


Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
What is the correct equation for determining the proc? The way I calculated it (which very well could be wrong) shows it better than DST.
#6959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
.... Ok apparently I can't read. I calculated that trinket as though it were an On Use with a 2min cooldown. Oops.
#6960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bragor
Well let me do the math :

44 Expertise Rating
Chance on hit 230 AP for 20 seconds.

Assuming internal cooldown of 45 seconds (General Rule) & an expertise value of 3.18 per rating.

(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/45)) = 139.92 + 102.22 = 242.14 EP

Am I doing something wrong here Oo ?

Let me redo the math but valuing the expertise as solid hit instead of expertise seeing in most cases we gonna be behind the mob :

(44x1.69) + 102.22 = 176.58 EP <== This is still good.

Also did the liberty of running Yo's Sim again with my current stats and having the hours set to 10'000 to get accurate numbers :

Attack Power = 1
Crit rating = 1.81
Hit rating = 1.68
Haste rating = 1.91
Armor penetration = 0.3
Strength = 2.2
Agility = 1.76
Expertise rating = 3.21

Last edited by Bragor : 02/11/08 at 1:11 AM. Reason: Added a bit more info
#6961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
You had the same idea that I did Bragor. According to the calc I did, just to be exactly as good at the DST it would need an internal cooldown of 2 minutes.
#6962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.
iLevel 115 = "other bosses" in Heroic Magister's Terrace. Sick.
#6963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
iLevel 115 = "other bosses" in Heroic Magister's Terrace. Sick.
That is fantastic.
#6964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bragor
I know it's not that confirmed but lets look at the other trinket found "Blackened Naaru Silver" Linky

54 Passive Haste rating.
Chance on hit to enter a battle stance in which on every hit you gain 44 Attack power stacking to 10 times. Expires in 20 seconds.

The Haste part is easy to calculate : (54x1.82) = 98.28 EP
The AP Part Is split into two parts : 1. Takes the Form of a linear curve.
2. Fully stacked & lasting to the end of the duration.

1st Part : Assume that you are dual wielding 2.8 speed weapons, They will go down due to passive haste & flurry to 1.9 speed. Per hit you gain 2 stacks. So.. 1.9 speed weapons hitting at the same time this means 2 hits per 1.9 seconds which means the durations of this phase is 9.5 Seconds.

2nd Part : (20s - 9.5) = 10.5 Seconds duration.

Assuming that the CD on the proc is 45 seconds also, Calculating the AP value part : ((138.95x9.5)+(440x10.5))/45 = (1320+ 4620)/45 = 132 EP.

Final Number is : 98.28 + 132 = 230.28 EP.

Am I still doing something wrong ? Oo

Or, Are the new trinkets too OPed ?

Last edited by Bragor : 02/11/08 at 2:04 AM. Reason: Added link
#6965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ruga
I got reeeeeeeeeeeeeally happy in my pants when I saw this Sunwell Plateau Trash drop:

Mounting Vengeance - Items - WOWDB


Mounting Vengeance
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Fist Weapon
196 - 365 Damage Speed 2.60
(107.9 damage per second)
+22 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Strength
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 46.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 140 of your opponent's armor.
#6966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
How much of an upgrade is Mounting Vengeance over the S3 weapons? I guess the sockets are what really tip it, but the S3 weps have a lot of stats.
#6967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Good for you non-orcs, but what about us orcish shamans?

Anyways, concerning trinkets remember that you are comparing Gruul trinket to Sunwell trinket, it should be miles ahead. Just that other trinkets on the way are not that suitable for us. Also expertise has i think taken blizzard by suprise just how powerful it is.
#6968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akkron
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Good for you non-orcs, but what about us orcish shamans?
Assuming T6 EP values and 1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP, lets compare the Vengeful Cleaver and Mounting Vengeance with the Orc racial expertise factored in.

Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver
(103.1 damage per second) - (381.47 EP)
+30 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 8 (0.51% @ L70). - (13.52 EP)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21 - (36.54 EP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 34. (34 EP)
Equip: Your attacks ignore 49 of your opponent's armor. (17.15 EP)
20 Expertise Rating (Orcish Racial) - (63.6 EP)
Total = 546.28 Offhand EP

Now if we only itemize Expertise at half its normal value due to it only affecting one hand (??) - (31.8 EP) which would result in a total EP of 514.48.

Mounting Vengeance
(107.9 damage per second) - (399.23 EP)
+22 Stamina
Yellow Socket (Assuming +10 STR Gem) - (22 EP)
Blue Socket (Assuming +10 STR Gem) - (22 EP)
Socket Bonus: +3 Strength (Not Applicable)
Equip: Increases attack power by 46. (46 EP)
Equip: Your attacks ignore 140 of your opponent's armor. (49 EP)
Total = 538.23 Offhand EP

Now the question is, would we value expertise rating so high when the racial expertise only affects the item in one hand?
#6969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Asirae
Just wanted to confirm some tests in-game with 3 monster types vs. my enhancement shaman. Also weapon choices in general based on pure dps and speed.

Weapons index for enhancement spec shamans:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Off-hand imbue tests for enhancement spec shamans:
Offhand Buff Matrix Raiding Enhancements - Shaman


Thanks to Malan and Disquette for all the input. Made my life easier.


- Asirae

Last edited by Asirae : 02/11/08 at 4:53 AM.
#6970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
Expertise value is 3.18 when hitting mob at behind and 6.36 if you hitting at front.



Edit: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg new dst.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/11/08 at 6:28 AM.
#6971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3kiyea
With regards to Mongoose. Is the haste portion of the buff a function similar to flurry or haste stats? Or more like Seal of the Crusader which reduces swing speed while reducing damage done. For a net of the same dps. Though with that sort of haste buff you lose dps on yellow damage.

According to wowwiki it functions in the 2nd manner. Making it a negative for the most part, but in particular for shaman.

Yet all the theorycrafting I've been able to find on Mongoose either glosses over the haste portion of the effect or assumes it to be a positive.

So how exactly does the haste function of mongoose work?
#6972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
I know it's not that confirmed but lets look at the other trinket found "Blackened Naaru Silver" Linky

54 Passive Haste rating.
Chance on hit to enter a battle stance in which on every hit you gain 44 Attack power stacking to 10 times. Expires in 20 seconds.

The Haste part is easy to calculate : (54x1.82) = 98.28 EP
The AP Part Is split into two parts : 1. Takes the Form of a linear curve.
2. Fully stacked & lasting to the end of the duration.

1st Part : Assume that you are dual wielding 2.8 speed weapons, They will go down due to passive haste & flurry to 1.9 speed. Per hit you gain 2 stacks. So.. 1.9 speed weapons hitting at the same time this means 2 hits per 1.9 seconds which means the durations of this phase is 9.5 Seconds.

2nd Part : (20s - 9.5) = 10.5 Seconds duration.

Assuming that the CD on the proc is 45 seconds also, Calculating the AP value part : ((138.95x9.5)+(440x10.5))/45 = (1320+ 4620)/45 = 132 EP.

Final Number is : 98.28 + 132 = 230.28 EP.

Am I still doing something wrong ? Oo

Or, Are the new trinkets too OPed ?
To be fair, generally speaking 20 sec duration procs/uses are on a 2 minute CD. They wouldn't (I don't think) put a 45 sec CD on a 20 sec duration buff, you'd have a very high uptime.

Also, in the calculation you could pretty much always assume that during the 9.5 seconds of "part 1 stacking time" that there will be a SS used, so knock off 1.9 secs there for the 2 instant attacks.
#6973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by kiyea View Post
With regards to Mongoose. Is the haste portion of the buff a function similar to flurry or haste stats? Or more like Seal of the Crusader which reduces swing speed while reducing damage done. For a net of the same dps. Though with that sort of haste buff you lose dps on yellow damage.

According to wowwiki it functions in the 2nd manner. Making it a negative for the most part, but in particular for shaman.

Yet all the theorycrafting I've been able to find on Mongoose either glosses over the haste portion of the effect or assumes it to be a positive.

So how exactly does the haste function of mongoose work?
Mongoose is a flat multiplier haste effect, reduces your swing time by 2%. There is no damage reduction.
#6974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Perfect speed, high DPS, high top damage and argueably the best stats for a t6 shaman on it. Not to mention 2 sockets, with a decent socketbonus and a BLUE socket! Something to dump a blue gem in.

Jesus, finally they make a Shaman weapon... Rising Tide was a start, but meh. Although, again from trash.. so perhaps lower iLevel again than KJ weapons, thus inferior yet again?
DPS is all that matters, damage range doesn't matter at all, IIRC.

I don't think trash loot has to be inferior, look at [Band of Devastation]'s ilvl. Same as Illy/archy loot.

Originally Posted by Joy View Post
I haven't seen a new Totem though - seems bizarre that I will be using a Badge item with my Sunwell gear.
Sup [Totem of Healing Rains]. Totems are usually a buff to one of you spells so unless they make a copy of an old one(there are a few) and bump it's stats from ilvl, you are stuck with it.
#6975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
I thought about applying the new enchant "Deathfrost" on my offhand. Supports the MT and he still has the possibility to get Mongoose on his weapon for even better avoidance stats. Any thoughts on that idea?
#7076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
I think you are still misinterpreting the original post.

At no point it says that you should avoid hit. Just that it is less valuable then other stats.

Let's imagine you have to choose between two pieces of gear: one with 100 ap and 20 crit, and the other with 100ap and 20 hit: the piece that will yield the greatest increase in dps is the one with crit. Hit wont affect your specials, while crit will. Now, if you have the to choose between the same 100ap/20crit and a piece with 100ap/40hit, the latter is better.

It is never about absolutes, just relative weights.
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
#7077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
As a follow-up to Diogo's comment, there is a theoretical point in the itemization where you would naturally become hit-capped because your total item budget would be so large that hit-capping would be an optimal use of that budget. However, we aren't at the ilvl where that would happen, and it is unlikely that it ever will with current mechanics. Simply put, between AP/Str, Crit, Agi, hit, expertise, haste, and hit, there are just too many stats to dump itemization points into, and a number of them give better returns per point than +hit, assuming that your gear is relatively balanced.
#7078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
We aren't casters. Each spell a caster uses is affected by being hitcapped. Casters also require less hit rating to become hit capped compared to a dual wield class, and spell hit and melee hit cost equal in the item budget.
#7079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
I'm not concerned with the whiz-bang dmg, not crit or haste or anything else, just plain hit/miss.
In this situation you are definitel right, if you do not account for dmg just for Hits and misses then definitely hit is a great stat ^^

If however you are just trying to do as much dmg as possible you should not gimp yourself so massively by choosing gear with lots of hit if there is better gear available.
#7080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
And that's why you're not raid leader?

Seriously, though. You don't need to provide justification for "not being hitcapped". You don't prove a negative. What you do is provide justification for being hitcapped. So far nobody has proven that doing so will produce better damage than not being hitcapped, because with current itemization it simply does not.

Here is an explanation for why pursuing hitcap is an unproductive strategy for enhancement shamans:
If you have 9% +hit from talents, or ~50 hit rating and 6% +hit from talents, your "yellow" attacks (Windfury and Stormstrike) will never miss. Therefore, hit rating affects only about 50% of your damage. Critical strike rating affects 90% of your damage, so it delivers better returns. Strength (and attack power) affect 100% of your damage, so they deliver the best returns.
#7081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
Simply put, it is better to have a lot of haste, a lot of crit and a lot of attack power than it is to have less of those in order to accomodate more hit rating.
#7082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dukes
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped.
a) You prove your point before you start stating things. Even if that's two WWS parses of you doing more damage with hit cap than without, it's SOME kind of evidence.
b)
Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
c)
Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
d) You're level 63. I understand you want to know about the mechanics before you get to a raid situation, but wtf?
e) If you still don't get it after this many people telling you and your only response being "I don't think being un-hitcapped is really a good thing", then you need to think about this more.
#7083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
#7084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Or he should roll a rogue and hitcap that with combatspec
#7085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
Getting hitcapped would gimp your other stats. Proposing getting hitcapped is the same as proposing gimping strength for the purpose of hit.
#7086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Scheme
Originally Posted by rava View Post
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
#7087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Penguin
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
Yes you did. In order to reach the hit cap, you are going to have to equip gear that ignores str, ap or crit in favour of more hit in the budget. Even if you gem for it, those are sill gems that could be crit. You can't just say "add more hit", because it comes at a cost of stats that will produce better dps.
#7088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
I've read the OP, over and over and over. However, no logical justification is presented for not being hitcapped.
If we lived in a world where one could be hitcapped without sacrificing any other stat -- well then yes, it'd be worthwhile.

But consider: you have a yellow slot. You can get +8 Crit Rating gems, or +8 Hit Rating gems. The Crit Rating gem would increase your chance to crit by .36%, the hit rating gem would increase your chance to hit by .5%.

However, depending on your spec & cycle, crit applies to 80 to 90% of your damage. Above that first 9%, hit only applies to at best 50% of your damage. This makes the crit gem at worst a .288% increase to total DPS, while the hit rating gem is at best a .25% increase.

So, provided that you are not crit capped, a crit gem is always better than a hit gem. And a +8 strength gem is even better. This is true well into BT.

The itemization on gear makes a similar trade off to 1 STR = 1 CR = 1 HitR. Thus, if you hit cap, you're sacrificing potential STR and CR gear to do so. Because both those stats offer more gains than HitR, you will necessarily do worse DPS than a shaman who had more balanced gear with the same item level.

Hit rating doesn't suck; you're bound to wind up with some of it because there are no pieces of armor with, say, +100 STR and that's it. I've found a lot of upgrades that dropped some STR/AP and Crit/Agi for a large amount of HitR. But if you cap, you will suck compared to others at your level who didn't cap.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/14/08 at 4:03 PM.
#7089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
To elaborate on what Penguin said...

Yes, you absolutely are proposing gimping strength and crit for hit. You can't magically add hit onto a piece of gear without either (a) increasing its ilvl (and thus the location of the drop, making it inaccessible at the level of the original item), or (b) removing other stats.

Gems are an excellent example, where gemming for hit means that you're not gemming for strength, but the same logic applies when Blizzard assigns stats to gear. They can either put hit on something, or they can add to another stat on it. Therefore, you can't isolate hit into its own discussion, you can only talk about it in terms of how it weights in relation to our other key stats.

Certain other classes want to be hit capped because hit, up to the point where they are capped, affects their DPS more than any other stat. Not because there's some all-important plateau of DPS that you can only reach if you never miss. The hit cap for them is simply the point where the stat is no longer worth anything. For us, it's never (unless you're Enh/Elem instead of Enh/Resto) the case that hit is worth that much. It's that simple.
#7090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
Wow, I'm dumb. I did not even think to go that simple.
#7091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by rava View Post
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
As of now, there isn't a viable "conditional" for integrating purge into another hotkey. The best way to go about it is to have purge be the opening line on a macro that does something non-related to purge, such as mount.

For example, i use this:

#show Tawny Windrider
/stopcast
/cast [harm] Purge; [target=targettarget, harm] Purge
/userandom [nobutton:2, flyable, nomounted] Tawny Windrider; [nomounted] Horn of the Swift Brown Wolf, Horn of the Frostwolf Howler
/dismount
END

If someone knows another method, I'd love to know myself. I've been owrking to find a hotkey that i can make that purges when the target can be purged, and if not, use my cast sequence.

On another note, in the explanation about expertise on the front page, one sentence could perhaps be edited for clarity:

"To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again."

I just think "round down to the nearest whole integer" would be better than "take the floor" for those not not savvy with math jargon like this. Maybe I'm wrong, just a suggestion.
#7092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
The justification for not being hit capped is this; If you select your gear based on which items will result in you dealing the most damage possible, you won't be hit capped. I attack 20 times and 10 of my attacks hit for 1100 damage each. You attack 20 times and they all hit for 500 damage each. Congratulations, you're hit capped. Too bad you're doing less damage than I am in this theoretical scenario. There is no special prize for being hit capped. Explain to us why never missing is necessary or even optimal based off of our current options gear-wise.

1 point of hit rating just plain provides a smaller damage increase than 1 point of crit rating. Why? I don't know. Ask Blizzard.

Hit rating isn't really a "lesser" stat. It does actually surpass stats like agility and haste rating in many situations. I've actually had hit rating get really close(.1 EP) to the value of crit rating based off of my own use of the simulator. I've never had it actually surpass crit though.

In short, hit rating is slightly less valuable than stats like strength, attack power, crit rating and expertise because math says it is. Math is a badass, so I wouldn't insult it if I were you.

Last edited by Sebudai : 02/14/08 at 5:08 PM.
#7093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Binkenstein
Math for the new trinket!

I'm going to work on putting together a decent framework for looking at proc based trinkets. Also: full credit for the original equation to whoever it was that made it (can't remember names right now).
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
=(15/(DEP!$G$12/(Crit*0.2)+45))*190
This is the formula I'm using for the sextant proc on my spreadsheet atm.

One of the other guys (can't remember who atm) came up with it.

The basic framework works out at Duration/chance + cooldown, multiplied by bonus.
bonus\frac{Duration}{Chance + cooldown}\)

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP

Full version for the trinket:
230\frac{20}{(1/Sa + 1/Sb)/0.1 + 45}

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/14/08 at 5:54 PM.
#7094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cuddly
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
#7095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Should that formula take into account that Flurry makes a 2.6 speed weapon effectively 1.82? Plugging numbers back in, I get:

230*(20/(0.1*1.100+45)) = 102.0 AP
#7096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
I hope you're kidding.
#7097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
I think (hope) I can solve this confusion. If the point of a raid was to make sure every attack hit, you'd be correct. However, the generally accepted principle is to maximize sustained DPS. The AEP system proposed here that values hit less than some stats is designed to maximize sustained dps, not to maximize # of attacks that hit. The reason casters (generally) cap their hit is because maxing spell hit is how a caster maximizes DPS.
#7098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Math for the new trinket!

...

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP
Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?

Last edited by Ardonomus : 02/14/08 at 6:23 PM. Reason: Clarifying
#7099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Can anyone explain to me why on maxdps.com, the 'EP' value of haste is so inflated? I'm thinking it's due to the modelling of WF to not include a 3s cooldown, but I'm not totally sure.

I was also thinking that with all the haste gear coming out in 2.4 we can do some tests to see if the 1.4-1.5 haste valley really exists. Looking at all the available passive haste gear so far available, we can get 444 haste rating/28.17% haste. We can probably run tests using a set of [Sun-forged Cleaver] to model the effect of adding/removing haste.

[edit] actually, all that haste is only enough to bring 2.6 down to 1.54 with 100% flurry. Seems we need just a little bit more haste (which is probably in the rest of the sunwell gear)
#7100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grogimer
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
#7126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Vissi
If you are taking leather you can swap a couple things
Grimgrin Faceguard
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest
#7127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Vissi View Post
If you are taking leather you can swap a couple things
Grimgrin Faceguard
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest = Yes
Grimgrin Faceguard = No

Keep your Cataclysm Helm until a T6 option with a meta socket.
#7128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Knar View Post
Hi i'm new to EJ, but I have been a long time reader/worshipper of this thread. Im an enhance shammy in SSC/TK and my guild has currently cleared everything up to Kael'thas. using the itemization part of the post i made a list of the best gear I believe I can get before entering tier 6 content (from SSC, TK, Badges, and ZA). here is a link to it: 70 Draenei Shaman

I'm just curious if I have done all the right calculations and if there's any better gear I can get before I hit BT/Hyjal.

sorry if somebody has already mentioned, and thanks for taking the time to read this

EDIT: I forgot to mention i didnt included crafted weapons/armor because im not a LW or blacksmith.
Use the sim, that's the best way.
#7129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
rava
New badge weapons for those who care:

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

Going to run sim once we finish playing around with Brut.

S3(1770 ap, 36.27% crit, 17.37% hit, 2.35% haste, 224 arp, 2x 103.1 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 364 agi, mh mongoose, oh executioner, dst, stonebreaker, earth+fire, most raid buffs) :
7700 ac: 1489, 1491, 1491, 1490, 1489
6200 ac: 1637, 1638, 1639, 1637, 1638

Badge(1790 ap, 35.34% crit, 17.69% hit, 5.14% haste, 126 arp, 2x 103 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 386 agi, everything else the same) :
7700ac: 1482, 1481, 1482, 1479, 1480
6200ac: 1628, 1627, 1630, 1629, 1628

Pretty damn close. I expected a bigger gap with the speed difference but it is ~10 dps in most cases.

Last edited by rava : 02/16/08 at 2:13 AM.
#7130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by rava View Post
New badge weapons for those who care:

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

Going to run sim once we finish playing around with Brut.

S3(1770 ap, 36.27% crit, 17.37% hit, 2.35% haste, 224 arp, 2x 103.1 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 364 agi, mh mongoose, oh executioner, dst, stonebreaker, earth+fire, most raid buffs) :
7700 ac: 1489, 1491, 1491, 1490, 1489
6200 ac: 1637, 1638, 1639, 1637, 1638

Badge(1790 ap, 35.34% crit, 17.69% hit, 5.14% haste, 126 arp, 2x 103 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 386 agi, everything else the same) :
7700ac: 1482, 1481, 1482, 1479, 1480
6200ac: 1628, 1627, 1630, 1629, 1628

Pretty damn close. I expected a bigger gap with the speed difference but it is ~10 dps in most cases.
According to Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery - Items - WOWDB the offhand is 1.5 speed. Did your sims count with 2.5 speed weapon or with 1.5 speed weapon? Would be bit strange seeing 2.5/1.5 weapons yielding only 1% DPS less than 2.6/2.6 weapons after the 'no fast offhands' crusade.
#7131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
According to Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery - Items - WOWDB the offhand is 1.5 speed. Did your sims count with 2.5 speed weapon or with 1.5 speed weapon? Would be bit strange seeing 2.5/1.5 weapons yielding only 1% DPS less than 2.6/2.6 weapons after the 'no fast offhands' crusade.
The slow offhand is Brutality, not Savagery.
#7132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Oh, I didn't think there would be fast and slow offhand for us. Considering that all generic physical mail loot known so far is 4 hunter pieces from which there are 2 x leggings...
#7133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
There are 3 "Vanir's..." fist weapons.

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]

The last one is not for us.
#7134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
So.. Anybody going full out leather come Sunwell ?

I know I am after seeing the leather pieces... only question is.. is it worth ditching one of the pieces for a tier 6 part so to net the 4-piece set bonus from using tier 6 bracers - belt - boots ?
#7135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
As was already nicely summarized by Myul and Genzou on page 277 of this thread, the difference is just 2 EP.

Anyway I know I'm going to wear leather, just as I'm doing now. I find stats on it more desirable. (Anyone else wished we could wear rouge T6?.. )
#7136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bestpike
Guys id like to ask something. Why have we decided that S3 weapons are better than syphons of nathrezim? i thought weapon speed (and as the guide itself says) was the most important thing, and 0.2 seconds isnt something small. Only from the stormstrike damage, even if we assume it doesnt lead to a windfury proc, we get 2.5 more dps. So i was wondering... Maybe its the stats that the pvp weapons give? crit, hit etc
#7137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Haven't you played a Shaman long enough to realize there is no one best stat, no one most important factor that, ignoring all else, will always result in the best dps?

Weapon DPS, weapon speed, weapon stats, weapon class (for orcs) all need to be properly balanced just like any other piece of gear. Simulations have shown the slow, slow Syphon beaten by Dragonstrike, RT, Talon and the S3 weapons -- all when calculated by different people with different stats, of course.

At T6, the S3 weapons ALMOST always win. Simulate it yourself, man! They're great weapons that make me wish I didn't hate arena so dang much.

My personal simulations seem to indicate that, all else being equal, each .1s a weapon is slower than 2.4s is worth around a .5% improvement in overall DPS. So a 2.8s weapon is going to be about 1% better overall DPS than a 2.6s weapon. The stats and weapon DPS on the VG weapons usually offer a larger benefit than that.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/16/08 at 4:13 PM.
#7138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Patrik View Post
Anyway I know I'm going to wear leather, just as I'm doing now. I find stats on it more desirable. (Anyone else wished we could wear rouge T6?.. )
We can...it's called season3 shaman pvp gear. jk sorry I felt inclined to make a rogue/rouge joke. The leather in sunwell is very, very nice! I am interested to see if they have plans of adding hunter/enh. shaman items to the sunwell vendor, because right now all the mail is just elemental gear
#7139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
I think it's likely they just haven't added mail gear yet. This is all beta stuff, fun to talk about I guess but most of it's going to change so dramatically it's hardly theory fodder.
#7140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
How good are the 2.5 speed weapons tho ? For someone without access to BT/MH or S3 weapons
#7141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Really good. Try them in the sim.
#7142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
ring enchants

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, and sorry for asking, but is plus 4 to all stats superior or inferior to +2 weapon damage to rings?
#7143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Leonina View Post
How good are the 2.5 speed weapons tho ? For someone without access to BT/MH or S3 weapons
The answer was posted 11 posts ago: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#7144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Thanks! I just skimped that post, didn't read it I truly am sorry that I didn't take time to read it. Basically almost as good as S3, sweet! So, does this means they are the best to be gained from PvE?
#7145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
Originally Posted by poofypajamas View Post
I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, and sorry for asking, but is plus 4 to all stats superior or inferior to +2 weapon damage to rings?
Quoting this from the first post :

3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
Asked often enough that it ends up needing its own section. These are the enchants contributing the most to DPS. Stength is always preferred over AP due to the effects of BoK.

Helm - Glyph of Ferocity (34 AP, 16 Hit)
Shoulders - Greater Inscription of the Blade (15 Crit, 20 AP) or Greater Inscription of Vengeance (30 AP, 10 Crit)
Cloak - Greater Agility (+12 Agi) or Subtlety (-2% Threat) if you feel threat constrained
Chest - Exceptional Stats (+6 Str/Agi)
Bracers - Brawn (+12 Strength)
Gloves - Major Strength (+15 Strength)
Rings - (Enchanter Only) Stats (+4 Str/Agi)
Legs - Nethercobra Leg Armor (50 AP, 12 Crit)
Please read the initial post before posting stuff or just use the Search button.
#7146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by Leonina View Post
Thanks! I just skimped that post, didn't read it I truly am sorry that I didn't take time to read it. Basically almost as good as S3, sweet! So, does this means they are the best to be gained from PvE?
[Mounting Vengeance] should be better (and if you are raiding on your shaman also probably more accessible) offhand choice. I also hope that there will be mainhand weapon matching its model because it looks realy great and it would be shame to wield something else in mainhand.
#7147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.

At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable.
These two statements seem to conflict to me. Is the OP saying that we should use Mongoose/Executioner or Double mongoose at the t6 level? Armor penetration becomes more accessible at these levels, but most of the gear I got from lootrank using Yo's doesn't have ArP except for a few choice pieces, and it's hardly stacked.

Using Yo's tells me that Mongoose/Executioner is better than Double Mongoose, and I think that's the point that OP is trying to make, but the wording seems confusing. If possible, could this section be clarified?
#7148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?
#7149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?
Maybe condensing it all as such:

At entry raid level, a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable; thus, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose at a pre-T6 level unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.
#7150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Looking through the new ptr loot, Shard of Contempt from the new heroic is stupidly good. I'm getting a bit over 130 AEP for the passive alone. Even assuming an ass-terrible proc rate of 0.5 ppm after specials, that's about 170 AEP total. Better than Dragonspine, and by extension every other trinket in WoW. Hopefully we'll see some data on the proc rate soon.

Speaking of expertise and loot, I can't make up my mind on Rising Tide vs the new badge fist for an orc. 1% crit and 3 weapon DPS vs 5 expertise and .1 speed. The deal-breakers seem to be whether the expertise applies to the offhand even if it's not an axe, and whether that graph Yo did holds up in actual gameplay (staggered weapon speeds > identical weapon speeds, so 2.5/2.6 > 2.6/2.6). WTB Fist to Axe Transmute so I don't have to figure this out.
#7176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.
#7177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Asirae View Post
I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
You know that what's best for you might not be best for another shamans? EP values change according to different stats.
#7178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.
As of 2.4 it does actually show on the paperdoll. Highlight umm I think it was your hit rating, and it shows there. Atleast If I remember right. I'll try and log into PTR now and see if its been implemented yet.
#7179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Yah, that's right. Hadn't noticed it myself, but just logged on to confirm it. Executioner stacks with armor penetration from your gear, but I don't have a Madness to check if that one stacks.
#7180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.
Ignore armor stat is displayed with hit rating in the new character pane in 2.4 build. I was looking forward to that one.

And I believe that Blizzard thinks two executioner procs stacking will be just too powerfull (-1680 ignore armor and then some passive armor penetration = scary numbers).

edit: argh, being slow
#7181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lumb
It seems like whenever I run YO's simulator for more than 10,000 hours it always freezes up on me. How long should it take to complete, or is that entirely dependant on my processor speed?
#7182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?
Additional armor has almost no benefit. For one, you should never be hit by any mob that does physical damage; most of the damage you take will be AoE magic for which armor is useless. Second, the difference between a shaman in ALL mail and a shaman in ALL leather is something like 10-15% DR and the difference between swapping out a single piece of mail for a single piece of leather is like 1% DR. Not negligible, but from a healer's perspective hardly noticeable.

Stamina is extremely useful, up to the point that you have enough for your healers to be able to keep you alive. Beyond that, it has little value aside from slightly de-stressing your healers. I keep a set of high(er) stam gear around for helping out new healers, but my raiding gear has 7800 health and I'd gladly sacrifice 800-1000 of that for more DPS.

When it comes to EP: I will take an upgrade that is ONE EP better than what I have, if it's going to get burnt otherwise. I will actively seek any upgrade that's 10 or more EP better than what I have. 90 EP vs 100 EP doesn't seem like a lot, but it's 2.5 DPS. Make that trade off on every armor slot, and you've just lost 30+ dps. If you wear

I almost never look at the other stats. Some items -- [Gauntlets of Sniping] vs [Trickster's Stickyfingers] (a 5 EP difference for me) -- are so close, I can almost convince myself it's worth the negligible survivability to pick mail. But these are rare, and I am aware that I am gimping myself.
#7183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Asirae View Post
I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons.
Please stop. Shaman DPS is a feedback system and the "best" weapons will vary dramatically by your EP, which changes every time you add an upgrade or change buffs you receive in raid. I dislike the concept of a "set" EP for T4/5/6 because this implies a level of homogeneity that does not exist. These are (I guess) useful from a theoretical standpoint, but bad when dealing with reality.

Shamans need to be mindful of this. A static list does not help them get there, it just reinforces a false assumption.

As an example -- a while back, [Fool's Bane] was about a 20 point upgrade for my offhand. Last I simulated it, it was nearly dead even -- because in the meantime, I'd added a lot of crit, hit rating, haste rating & armor pen, and the value of offhand weapon DPS went up.

What's more, what is important is not the BEST weapon, it's "is this weapon upgrade I am presented with worth the DKP/Honor/Grind cost" -- a question which can only be answered for an individual's gear. Malchazeen may well be an upgrade for some. It should also be a cue to farm up a better weapon.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/18/08 at 12:59 PM.
#7184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Lumb View Post
It seems like whenever I run YO's simulator for more than 10,000 hours it always freezes up on me. How long should it take to complete, or is that entirely dependant on my processor speed?
Highly dependent on your computer and what else you're doing at the time. 10,000 hours seems to take about 5 min on a pretty decent system. If all you want is a DPS check, then don't select the EP option as that adds a lot of extra calculations.
#7185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grundar
I have been thinking about this too, especially in regard to killing priests and pallys. Is there a way to tie a purge in to the stormstrike timer so that the purge comes right before the stormstrike?



Originally Posted by rava
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!

/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
#7186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Out of curiosity I just opened 2 LootRank.com windows and input our Entry, Mid, and High end EP values into each one, excluded PvP items and set it to display leather only. With the exception of a few slots (low end placed cloaks and necks slightly different) the ordering of the top 5 'best items' in each slot was identical across the board. (Each slot generally had 1 item shifted slightly above/below one other item, but all of them agreed on what the top item was in each slot)

I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
#7187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
Well, the problem with this test is that the "best in game" stuff isn't what an individual cares about ranking. It's immediate upgrades. There isn't a lot of "best" gear, it all comes from the same two dungeons, and it's already been mentioned that at T5 levels certain upgrades (the Talon is what I'm thinking of) actually outperform certain T6 upgrades. The BEST stuff outdoes them both.

The problem with evaluating the BEST is that the best isn't what's accessible in most cases. You really care about what's better, right now, for me. Caring ONLY about the best leads to DKP hoarding and other antisocial, DPS-nerfing behaviors.
#7188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Out of curiosity I just opened 2 LootRank.com windows and input our Entry, Mid, and High end EP values into each one, excluded PvP items and set it to display leather only. With the exception of a few slots (low end placed cloaks and necks slightly different) the ordering of the top 5 'best items' in each slot was identical across the board. (Each slot generally had 1 item shifted slightly above/below one other item, but all of them agreed on what the top item was in each slot)

I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
If I remember correctly, from editing my Loot Rank as my values changed, the order of the items were virtually identical, as you also witnessed.
#7189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
But that's what I just described Toots - other than 1 or 2 items being listed differently, the order of upgrades using each of those values was identical.

Leave DKP and loot grabbing behaviors out of this. I'm not talking about how a guild decides loot order here at all. I'm talking about how we're deciding to evaluate gear stats and apply weights. I'm questioning the model that we're using.

The funny thing is that MaxDPS.com is producing the exact same lists.
#7190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
The new Sunwell weapons that are becoming available, and the seeming lack of an axe to them has got me mulling over the actual impact the orc racial has on our weapon choice, or in other words, what is the actual value of Weapon expertise.

The best way seems to be calculating them into Weapon EP, considering it only affects that actual hand you're wielding the weapon in. The formula's I've come up with are these:

MH W-EP = 2/3 * 20 * Exp-EP
OH W-EP = 1/3 * 20 * Exp-EP

The 20 times expertise EP speaks for itself, that's just the EP value of the 5 expertise the racial gives. The 2/3 and 1/3 are based on the fact that the main hand does double the damage of the offhand, so the damage spread is 2/3 and 1/3 respectively.

Enhancer does the awesome job of already calculating W-EP, so just tag on the calculated added EP from the orc racial and you should be able to compare them with non axes for a quick and dirty check if something is actually better or not.

Anyway, my math has been proven to be wrong in the past, so I wanted to run it past you guys.

Another thing that sprung to my mind is because of the unique mechanics of the racial, is how much of an impact having a non axe would have on increasing main hand windfury procs. To my knowledge dodges can't proc windfury, so in essence with your offhand getting 1.25% more dodges you should force your main hand windfury ratio up a small notch, I doubt this will have a huge impact on dps, but it might actually be worth considering. I have no idea how to go about calculating this though.
#7191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Leave DKP and loot grabbing behaviors out of this. I'm not talking about how a guild decides loot order here at all. I'm talking about how we're deciding to evaluate gear stats and apply weights. I'm questioning the model that we're using.
Well, we kind of already went over this discussion a while back. Disquette, Tornhoof, and others had introduced a way for us to obtain AEP values, and Yo! came in and said that hey, these aren't really static values, you guys shouldn't use this system. As I recall, I and Sebudai both said something like "well, it doesn't matter because the best in slot items are the same for everyone regardless", but since Yo's sim makes it so easy to get customized EP values, it makes sense to use that and then you will choose the right upgrades along the way as well.
#7192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Yah I know we've touched on it before... what I'm getting at though is that I think we're dancing around the solution here. If just about any (valid) result from the sim is going to produce (nearly) the same results in gear choices, doesn't that imply an underlying relationship that we're missing? It seems to me that we're about 1 step away from the 'grand unified theory of enhance shaman' that would give us 1 set of relationships that would work for everything.
#7193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Stopokingme View Post
MH W-EP = 2/3 * 20 * Exp-EP
OH W-EP = 1/3 * 20 * Exp-EP

Anyway, my math has been proven to be wrong in the past, so I wanted to run it past you guys.
Your math is right (I posted the same answer a few pages back when someone posed the question).
Another thing that sprung to my mind is because of the unique mechanics of the racial, is how much of an impact having a non axe would have on increasing main hand windfury procs. To my knowledge dodges can't proc windfury, so in essence with your offhand getting 1.25% more dodges you should force your main hand windfury ratio up a small notch, I doubt this will have a huge impact on dps, but it might actually be worth considering. I have no idea how to go about calculating this though.
Interesting idea, sim it.
#7194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yah I know we've touched on it before... what I'm getting at though is that I think we're dancing around the solution here. If just about any (valid) result from the sim is going to produce (nearly) the same results in gear choices, doesn't that imply an underlying relationship that we're missing?
It is not surprising that the sim gives similar results in gear choices given different starting points. The "underlying relationship" that you refer to is, simply put, shaman combat mechanics. The sim is using those to give an answer.
It seems to me that we're about 1 step away from the 'grand unified theory of enhance shaman' that would give us 1 set of relationships that would work for everything.
Well, we had a lot of people trying to find a "closed form" model that could accept parameters like AP, Crit, Hit as inputs and give DPS as output. You can do that *reasonably* well, which is what MaxDPS.com is doing. Tornhoof also produced something, and we had someone else coming in here who wanted to use a Cobb-Douglas function. There are currently a few problems with this approach. First, it's not easy to add extra procs like Mongoose, Stonebreaker Totem, or Madness of the Betrayer to this equation. Each variable introduces another level of complexity. Second, the best models produce something that appears to be less accurate than the margin of error in the simulation. Given the choice between the two, it appears that for now, simming is the way to go.
#7195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
What I'm getting at is that I think the sim can provide us with what we're looking for.
#7196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Low Life
While I was checking Lootrank with my own values compared to the T6 level values presented in OP, I noticed a trend there. While a lot of items were at the same spot on both rankings, items with either haste rating or armor penetration varied immensely. Best example would be shoulders, where with T6 values [Swiftstrike Shoulders] ranked as the second best shoulders currently in game (4th overall), they were only 8th best with my values. A few posts back someone also mentioned [Gauntlets of Sniping] being slightly worse for him than [Trickster's Stickyfingers], while for me they're actually 17EP higher.

This made me think about items with these stats and choosing between two possible upgrades. If Item1 has 150EP with pure Agi/AP/Crit and Item2 has 140EP with AP/Crit and Haste rating on it, would Item2 actually turn out better in the long run, when I manage to find upgrades for my other slots? This would probably change my current "final" paperdoll with upgrades from ZA/Kara/Badges by quite a bit.

edit: My Lootrank
T6 Lootrank

The 2.4 items mess things up a bit there..

Last edited by Low Life : 02/18/08 at 4:59 PM.
#7197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shalas
Using the T6 item values and lootrank, the order is almost always exactly what I would expect it to be with absolutely no knowledge about enhancement shaman at all. It's mostly sorted by item level, with exceptions exactly where you'd expect them: items with sockets appearing above items without sockets, items with more stats appearing above items with fewer stats, and items with caster stats appearing under items without caster stats. Take this lootrank search. If you sorted the top 5 items in each slot by ilvl with sockets giving +15 ilvls, one caster stat giving -15 ilvls and two giving -20 ilvls, you'd get the same best item in all but three slots, and only 11 items even change position.

The theoretical optimal items change significantly as your gear changes, but the items available do not. The optimal actual items don't change because there's very few items that have the budget spent in a decent way on stats that do anything at all. Does it really matter if hit or crit is worth more when the item selection is so bad that the third best hat has 28 int on it? I don't think there's any magical relevation to be found other than that the itemization available is really so bad that you're more concerned with finding items that actually spend all of thier points on useful stats and sockets than finding items which spend all of thier points of the right stats.
#7198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Malan
Except I can get almost the same lists on LootRank if I input 1 (one) for all the values except Armor Penetration.

Last edited by Malan : 02/18/08 at 5:01 PM.
#7199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Except I can get almost the same lists on LootRank if I input 1 (one) for all the values except Armor Penetration.
This result is not surprising, though. The primary stats (everything to do with DPS except armor pen) all have the same "cost" on "item budget". To item designers, 1 STR = 1 AGI = 1 crit rating = 1 hit rating = 1 haste rating = 1 expertise rating = 2 AP. There is a second-order effect based on an exponential penalty for items which "stack" a stat, but we would not expect that to affect our results. If the game is properly designed, all these stats should impact us equally. However, there are some peculiarities to enhancement shaman mechanics, so for example, hit rating is worth more if you don't have 9% and less if you do. Kings makes strength and agility worth a bit more. Agility confers some "survival" benefits in addition to DPS benefits, so it's worth a bit less than crit rating. Again, we are basically discussing something months old here, Yo! said "well, if you want an EP system Blizzard already gave you one, it's called the item budget". The issue is that the game isn't perfectly balanced and that enhancement shamans do have some peculiarities, so the interesting choices are where the base stat values don't quite work out.
#7200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shalas
Assuming you mean all melee stats, that's pretty much my point. There's so few items that you can equip that spend itemization points on anything useful that choosing an optimal item is never an option. Once you get to raid gear, most of the time you aren't choosing between an item with the right melee stats or the wrong melee stats, you're choosing between items with the wrong melee stats, items with no sockets, items with the wrong melee stats that are a lower ilvl, and items with int/mana regen. Which stats you want only matters when you actually have a choice, but most of the time items with the right stats aren't even an option. There are zero items in the top 5 for each slot which have the right stats at all, much less the right stats in the correct proportions, which makes worrying about what those correct proportions are somewhat pointless most of the time.
#7226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
New shoulders found from the twins, seem to be almost on par with the feral druid shoulders aep wise. Interesting note is it's a piece of mail with 0 intellect on it.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldenforest.jpg

Pretty decent itemization. 279 ep compared to:

[Demontooth Shoulderpads] 286
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 261
#7227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
Post 2.3 wDPS ep.


I have calculated these values from Yo's sim using 15shock/2minute.
I used 2*2.6 weapons.

Mh wDPS ep: 7.4
Oh wDPS ep: 3.6


Edit: These numbers slighly scale with gear -+ 1%.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/20/08 at 9:29 AM.
#7228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Renly
@ Pitbuller: I like your sig


Oh, and to people who are curious, the issue I posted about a few posts ago persists when I try using Safari instead of Firefox...I'll try IE tomorrow at work. I refuse to put such an evil browser on this computer.
#7229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vokzhen
On Malan's statweight crisis:
It's really to be expected. There are a set number of items that drop in T5 and T6 instances, and for the most part can very clearly be split into "hunter stuff," "decent stuff" (generally lacking sockets and so on), and "good stuff." Changing stat weights is not going to make a hunter item suddenly good, nor a good item suddenly only decent. There are too few items with large enough differences between them (both ilvl wise and just how the points are spent) that it's fairly clear which items are best and which aren't.

Where this system really picks apart items is while still gearing up. Many people are or will be at the gear level that they must choose between Kara gear, badges gear, ZA gear, and possibly early T5 gear. There are so many items available at that level, often not so clearly identifiable as "best" or "decent," because people's gear itself is so different at that level.

Take cloaks, for a very clear example: Vengeance Wrap, Cloak of Fiends, Dory's Embrace, Cloak of Darkness, and Black-Iron Battlecloak are all available in post-Kara raiding, and none are clearly better or worse than another. With personal EP weights, it's much easier to determine which is the best cloak. However, it's not logical to expect that, with the limited number of T6-level cloaks (one), that any of them would compete. It's always going to be polarized with SMDestroyer's at the top, and others on down, no matter how much you mess with the numbers.
#7230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
New shoulders found from the twins, seem to be almost on par with the feral druid shoulders aep wise. Interesting note is it's a piece of mail with 0 intellect on it.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldenforest.jpg

Pretty decent itemization. 279 ep compared to:

[Demontooth Shoulderpads] 286
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 261
The other day I was thinking about the fact that our item budget gets messed up by having STA + INT on items, and what Blizzard might do to stop us from preferring rogue items. The new Skyshatter pieces are fairly well itemized, but still some of them end up devoting excessive amounts of budget to non-DPS stats ([Skyshatter Greaves] has 43 sta and 20 int, for example.) I figured that we will see more items like the one you posted (which I consider analogous to [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]) and more items with just INT and no STA (which I would consider analogous to [Softstep Boots of Tracking]). It will be interesting to see if that prediction comes true.

Last edited by Rob : 02/20/08 at 11:17 AM.
#7231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hodor
Looking at the Tier 4/5/6 values on the front page and comparing them (a bit off because Tier 4 apparently doesn't include BoK, so I took the strength and agility values without agility and for the Tier 6 agility value subtracted 10% which should be close to its value without BoK):
                     Tier 4                   Tier 5                  Tier 6
Attack Power         1 EP                      1 EP                    1 EP 
Strength             2 EP                      2 EP                    2 EP
Agility              1.74 EP                   1.8 EP                  1.52 EP
Crit Rating          1.97 EP                   2 EP                    1.74 EP
Hit Rating           1.34 EP                   1.4 EP                  1.69 EP
Haste Rating         1.28 EP                   1.48 EP                 1.82 EP
Armor Penetration    0.22 EP                   0.28 EP                 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating                                                       3.18 EP
Lets look at the percentage difference between them (using Tier 4 value as a base line):
                     Tier 4                   Tier 5                 Tier 6
Attack Power          1 EP                     100                    100 
Strength              2 EP                     100                    100
Agility               1.74 EP                  103                    87
Crit Rating           1.97 EP                  102                    88
Hit Rating            1.34 EP                  104                    126
Haste Rating          1.28 EP                  115                    142
Armor Penetration     0.22 EP                  127                    159
Expertise Rating                                                      3.18 EP
Looking at the difference we can see the following:
Comparing Tier 4 and 5: Relatively small difference in haste rating (+15%), big difference in armor penetration (+27%)
Comparing Tier 4 and 6: Relatively small difference in Agility and crit rating (-13% and -12 %), big differences between hit rating (+26%), haste rating (+42%), and armor penetration (+59%).
I can't compare Expertise Rating because there aren't any values for Tier 4 and 5 in the opening post.

So from that we can gather the following: The EP of AP, Strength, Agility and crit rating stay relatively close to each other. Hit rating and haste rating only change in a significant way when you reach the Tier 6 EP. Armor Penetration sees the biggest difference in EP.

It would be nice to see what values were entered to get the Tier 4/5/6 EP in order to check the following:
Why do those EP that change signigicantly doso, is it because of all the values or only because of one or two values (for example the change in Armor Penetration could quite possibly be because more armor penetration was being worn when getting the Tier 6 EP in comparison to Tier 4/5).

What I'm trying to get at is the following: Would it be possible to assign a fixed EP for those stats that stay relatively unchanged, while only checking a few stats for those that change significantly. For example saying (arbitrary numbers): " Armor Penetration has a value of 0.22 EP. For every 100 Armor Penetration you are wearing add 0.05 to its EP." And so on.

Note: this is relatively unpolished and not entirely thought through and there are probably many things wrong with it. However, I first want to see if this approach is even worth pursuing before sticking a lot of work into it.

The goal of this approach would be to make it easier to get your EP values (since they do change to a certain amount accordingto your equipment). Because from experience (and reading this thread) it is quite obvious that many people have problems getting their own EP values. In addition they make a relatively small difference in item selection (as Malan noted, except for a few items, changing the EP values doesn't change the sorting of the items effectiveness too much). Using this approach could yield something along the lines of only having to check/enter a few numbers/values/stats in order to sort items correctly (for example only checking how much Armor Penetration I have in order to correctly wigh Armor Penetration).

Feel free to tear this post apart.
#7232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Hodor View Post
It would be nice to see what values were entered to get the Tier 4/5/6 EP in order to check the following:
Why do those EP that change signigicantly doso, is it because of all the values or only because of one or two values (for example the change in Armor Penetration could quite possibly be because more armor penetration was being worn when getting the Tier 6 EP in comparison to Tier 4/5).
That's pretty much exactly what happens, the more armor penetration you put on, the more valuable it becomes in the simulator.

I think you're hitting what I'm saying - that there might be more of a baseline valuation that could be used and adjusted from.

[e] http://elitistjerks.com/647684-post30.html Thoughts on this from the Math-magicians out there?

Last edited by Malan : 02/20/08 at 3:06 PM.
#7233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lumb
Is it me or is Yo!'s website currently down?
#7234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
He appears to be suggesting just creating a lookup table for Flurry uptime/etc. by just running the sim for enough weapon speed/crit combinations that you can easily interpolate the rest. With a large enough data set this would work -- even if you can't find an equation that matches the entire set of data, sufficient data points would let you get an accurate enough result anyway. With a simulator that can run batches and a lot of cpu time, it'd be pretty easy to build a closed-form model, but Yo!'s sim can't be automated and to the best of my knowledge all of the other sims have problems with thier models. If one of the open source sims is usable (or if Yo! adds automation support), the only problem remaining is that my napkin math says it'd take ~100 days of CPU time to build the dataset. It's an inheriently parallelizable task, so even that might be doable.
#7235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3iconocclast
Gems

we all know that the Bold living ruby is the best answer for our gem needs BUT shouldnt the Ornate (20AP) and the Crimson Sun (24AP for us JCers) be accounted for as well?
#7236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Go Go Godzilla
Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
TOTAL: 1051.17 ep

Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality
TOTAL: 494.63 ep

DPS values were using 2.6 EPs, which is obviously wrong.
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP
DPS values are discussed here: http://elitistjerks.com/517715-post4039.html.
2.5 values should be less than the 2.6 values. But I'm not sure by how much.
I wanted to get an idea of the EP values as well and, realizing that the 2.6 EP values for DPS would calculate unfairly in favor of the Vanir's Fists, I did a linear, algebraeic adjustment to the speed. I used:

MH – ((9.03 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 8.68 MH EP;
OH – ((3.7 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 3.56 OH EP

I know this isn't 100% on the mark, but I was hoping to get a slightly closer understanding of the value of the badge weapons versus some of the other weapons that are currently out there. My final result was 1489.24 EP (Vanir Right Fist - 1015.12 MH; Vanir Left Fist - 474.12 OH). My initial reaction to this is that the values would have to be whittled down a little beyond this, as this would technically place it higher than dual-wielding the Syphons from BT. But then again, a majority of the badge loot is quite impressive anyway.

By this estimation, the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver would still be a better weapon.

EDIT: Clarification and a little grammar, plus I typed a number wrong. Durr.

Last edited by Go Go Godzilla : 02/20/08 at 5:18 PM.
#7237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by iconocclast View Post
we all know that the Bold living ruby is the best answer for our gem needs BUT shouldnt the Ornate (20AP) and the Crimson Sun (24AP for us JCers) be accounted for as well?
Duh? I mean, obviously those are going to be better than something which gives 16 AP without Kings and 17.6 AP with Kings.
#7238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Go Go Godzilla View Post
I wanted to get an idea of the EP values as well and, realizing that the 2.6 EP values for DPS would calculate unfairly in favor of the Vanir's Fists, I did a linear, algebraeic adjustment to the speed. I used:

MH – ((9.06 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 8.68 MH EP;
OH – ((3.7 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 3.56 OH EP

I know this isn't 100% on the mark, but I was hoping to get a slightly closer understanding of the value of the badge weapons versus some of the other weapons that are currently out there. My final result was 1489.24 EP (Vanir Right Fist - 1015.12 MH; Vanir Left Fist - 474.12 OH). My initial reaction to this is that the values would have to be whittled down a little beyond this, as this would technically place it higher than dual-wielding the Syphons from BT. But then again, a majority of the badge loot is quite impressive anyway.

By this estimation, the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver would still be a better weapon.

EDIT: Clarification and a little grammar.

Going at 2.6 * 2 weapon sto 2.5 * 2 weapons decrease physical damage only 1.1% and you suggest
(2.5/2.6 - 1) = -3.8%
So DONT over value speed factor. Allways use sim when compare weapons. Ep values for weapons isnt just enough accurate.
#7239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
#7240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
And holy shit at the buffs to it.

#7241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
That makes me happy
#7242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
Originally Posted by rava View Post
And holy shit at the buffs to it.
finally there's a better belt than the vashj one ...
#7243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Whoah holy smokes, expertise on set items?
#7244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Damn nice buff, though I wish they removed the int and put stamina in it's place instead :P At least on a few of them.

The amount of expertise on those, coupled with the trinket from Heroic Magister's Terrace will mean we're expertise capped for dodge as well. Wow. Makes me care a lot less about the apparent lack of axes in Sunwell as well :P
#7245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Stopokingme View Post
Damn nice buff, though I wish they removed the int and put stamina in it's place instead :P At least on a few of them.

The amount of expertise on those, coupled with the trinket from Heroic Magister's Terrace will mean we're expertise capped for dodge as well. Wow. Makes me care a lot less about the apparent lack of axes in Sunwell as well :P
With just those 3 items plus the shard, puts us at 112 expertise rating, where as we only need 90 to be capped for dodge and parry.
#7246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
falonub
I think I just creamed my pants...all 3 pieces have expertise....Wow
these are too good to pass, time to start saving dkp for sunwell :P

Last edited by falonub : 02/20/08 at 6:05 PM.
#7247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sebbie
Woah... If only they'd do that for some of our other gear.
#7248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Othieus View Post
With just those 3 items plus the shard, puts us at 112 expertise rating, where as we only need 90 to be capped for dodge and parry.
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
#7249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
I have a bad feeling these new awesome set items will be nerfed one way or another before they go live... with my EP values the belt will be a ~60EP upgrade, the bracers a ~77.5EP upgrade and the boots a ~115EP upgrade from the current best-in-game slots.

But then again I guess that's what happens when we get proper itemized loot?
#7250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Urstroyer
It seems, that finally Blizzard learned to create Items that fit perfectly to an enhancment shaman. Also the elemental parts are currently very well itemized -> pure caster stats without any mp5 which eats from the item level.

I really hope that we will see some more nice enhancement loot on the prt soon, perhaps some more items to trade at the transmuter npc, who knows.
#7251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
#7252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Devnex View Post
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
#7253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
I'm aware. However I'm disinclined to believe that our four set is so spectacular for arena that it warrants this kind of itemization-castration.

I'd be hard pressed to use more than one of these stamina-less items in what I've seen of current sunwell fights. The dps potential is obvious but there's not a single fight so far that the loss of over 1k hp isn't a big deal.
#7254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
BoinKlasik
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.

edit: what devnix said

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 02/20/08 at 8:00 PM.
#7255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.
My current boots don't have any stam right now, and i'd have to say I would prefer that juicy expertise to some stam.
#7256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
#7257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
[e] Beaten to it by Malan.
#7258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
So I am having a bit of a quandry: Take crit over +hit, or play it safe on my gear choices and try to take minimal hit losses.

This is my explanation: I am sitting at 119 +hit, but only 26.16% crit (talented, unbuffed) once I get my BT rep trinket. As with many situations, there are various obvious gear upgrade choices which would be easy to make if not for the fact that most suggestions on the upgrade sites (maxdps, lootrank) are so normalized. I could take, for example, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator but would sustain a loss of 20 +hit (bringing me to 99 hit, but giving me obvious improvements over Pauldrons of Primal Fury. INSTEAD OF this, I could opt for Skyshatter Pauldrons with an estimated 3 DPS loss from the Eyeball Happy Funbags. Would the +hit loss be worth it to get the Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, or should I play it safe with my +hit and opt for the Skyshatter?
#7259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yuma
Originally Posted by Murk View Post
So I am having a bit of a quandry...
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?
#7260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by rava View Post
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
"Expertise against Bosses
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed."

Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well.
#7261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Devnex
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
My point was it seems like EVERY Sunwell fight is healing and raid-damage intensive making items with only juicy dps stats almost harmful. This probably isn't the place for this discussion though.

Edit: Its illogical to get raiding gear that you'd be foolish to use in 90% of the fights in the instance you get it in.

Last edited by Devnex : 02/20/08 at 8:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
#7262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.
#7263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?

That actually helped make the decision much more easily, thanks! The values I had input to lootrank were a bit skewed from the calc's values.
#7264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.

I agree. No one forces you to use the gear all the time, or at all, there are already some very common no stam items; the best pieces in those slots; neck, belt (best mail belt), and boots. So surely is it no different to now you can choose the best in slot (by a fair way) or settle for second best with a chunk of stam. Or mix and match.

I currently have no items with 0 stam and just picked up one of the s3 axes which puts me around 11300 HP buffed (using a STR/spi food), so I will definitely be using these new items, additionally I will also gain stam when I replace my offhand either from a Mounting Vengeance (22) or another s3 axe (30).

I am a Tauren though ^_^


ps I am surprised to see people complaining since it was expertise added and we have all been dying a little inside every time a WF or a SS is dodged.
#7265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
oglas
Ooooh nice, when I first saw T6 changes on those 3 items my first thought was "NAGA PLS!"... Seemed a bit drastic, although I'm quite happy because someone obviously taught Blizzard developers what a shaman brother needs.

Not gonna complain too much, it's really nice and welcome change, although they could have done it by changing ALL T6 items and replacing mp5 to lets say -armor, and just taking some stat points from stamina and converting them to DPS stats, instead of nuking stamina out and putting huge amounts of unnecessary expertise (Orcs benefit A LOT less from these, if the cap is what we think it is).

But well, cant wait until i get my hands on those :-P

Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 3:45 AM.
#7266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rounced
Originally Posted by Tuili View Post
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.
Just an aside - this macro doesn't work.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to get it to work?

I don't want to use a castsequence since there are always times when you don't want to spam purge but I love the idea of being able to use the binding to purge when stormstrike is on cooldown.
#7267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deadstar
Interesting tidbit about the new PTR build:

The single target destruction of totems returns mana for the same amount you would get from Totemic Recall.

Single target doesn't activate the GCD and you can also destroy totems in Ghost Wolf without leaving form.

If it goes live untouched and we can figure out the command for manually destroying totems, you can probably macro it to work like Totemic Recall without wasting a GCD.
#7268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ridan
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
#7269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
I've been pondering which T6 item to grab now, before this nice change I though I would grab the helm and shoulders (due to the fact I'll most likely never see CVoS because of guild item-priorities, and I'd need 2xT6 since I have the Vashj belt). However, after this nice change all the T6 items are best-in-slot at their current state.

So.. to figure out the last piece, I've added 70EP to that T6 piece, and I came up with shoulders being a good slot to go for. I'm a leatherworker though, and Gloves of Immortal Dusk end up as the best-in-slot gloves for me which is why I'm hesitant to take the T6 gloves. T6+70EP = ~248EP vs the GoID at ~308EP.

However, the best-in-game shoulders at the moment are the Demontooth Shoulderpads at ~275EP, T6+70EP=266EP. So that's just a 9EP loss compared to a much higher loss in the other slots.

Pacifier's EP chart

There's the values I've used to calculate it, if that's any use for anyone else.
#7270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Hello!
This is the first post for me here(been a viewer for a long time though)

I decided to try out enhance after being ele and resto for a while now and its really fun!

The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

ATM i have 1178ap, 150 hit rating (+ talents) and 22.48% crit
This is oc course without totems or any buffs, in addition my gear isnt really enchanted and im using green gems
Most of it are from kara/heroics, but got some items from ssc/tk aswell

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)



- Ballzofsteel
#7271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daruu View Post
The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

...

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)

- Ballzofsteel
Just read again the OP, especially section 3.1.2 (and this must have been answered like... a hundred times)
#7272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Yes i have seen that

So basicly i shouldnt care about hit rating at all then, and rather go for crit and strength... (this seems a bit weird to me, i am still getting a lot of misses)

And what stats should a enhance shaman have at ssc/tk level then? (ap/crit)
#7273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
To daaru.
Loot Rank

OP shows tons of tools how you can improve your dps/gear. Just learn use those. This isnt best place to ask what color shirt you should wearing. Allthought there is lots of infomation what you just have to read.
#7274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Ridan View Post
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
I have a T6 shoulder token laying in the bank because I figured that much myself. But then I checked gloves and shoulder upgrades and best in-slot from Sunweel will be above the added 62-70 AP/EP from this one "old" item. The 4p bonus just isn't worth the lost EP from this slot.
#7275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3death_Phobos
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Whoah holy smokes, expertise on set items?
Incredible good Items, i can't believe.
#7376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Can't tell you from personal experience but I see alot of MH exec OH mungo shamans.
#7377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Lakai View Post
I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.
Horrible grammar aside... run the sim. It's quite simple. For me Exec/Mongoose was a little better, so I went for it.
#7378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Lakai View Post
I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.
Simulation is your friend. Try all the combos.

[e] Damnit, beaten to it.
#7379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Otion View Post
I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
Time outside of the cooldown window is a meaningless number. In the range of weapon speeds (1.5, 3.0), the actual WF proc rate is constant if you ignore Flurry and SS (as within that range, you have exactly one swing with each hand that can't proc after each proc). With a constant proc rate, the number of procs is directly inversely proportional to the size of the procs, making the damage constant. However, SS is unnormalized, which vastly favors slow weapons. As a result, there's exactly one level where 2.0 speed weapons would be acceptable, and a good argument could be made for taking SS before DW anyway. There is no situation that doesn't involve very carefully stacked amounts of passive haste where 2.0/2.0 is better than 2.6/2.6.
#7380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Lakai-

Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error. There *might* be a tiny difference if your weapons are different speeds, but even in that case you're more likely to see the sim's margin of error than anything real.

The difference between Mongoose and Exe is pretty small in the first place, and which you put on which speed weapon is going to make like a 1% difference in its proc rate. The difference is too small to simulate unless you're willing to run the sim for days on end.
#7381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psykhe
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error.
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.
#7382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tepee007
I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?
#7383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
LazyJoe
You pretty well summarized the whole "Questions you shouldn't ask because you have the answer in the OP" thing.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 02/25/08 at 9:00 AM.
#7384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm a resto shammy, and respecced last night just to see how my DPS would work out (mostly for fun, and we have no enh shammy atm).
I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P
I could use a regeming on my pants aswell (very old and did the geming very very long time ago).

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.
I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.
#7385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Psykhe View Post
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.
I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?
#7386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Otion View Post
I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
You're neglecting to account for both Stormstrike and each WF proc hitting a lot harder with slower weapons. Also, we don't base our gear around a 10 minute CD that doesn't even do as much for us as it does for other classes. 2.6 speed isn't some mystical "ideal speed," either--any good enh shaman will tell you that 2.8 > 2.7 > 2.6 > 2.5 etc etc.--every bit you can add to the speed of the weapon will, assuming all other stats are the same, increase your DPS. If you don't believe it, run the sim with a 2.6 spd and a 2.8 spd. Try 2.0 speed if you want.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but there are too many other factors that make it wrong. It's the same kind argument as someone made (believe it or not) in favor of rogues always using two very fast weapons because they'd get more MH poison applications with a faster one--true, but irrelevant when you consider the whole picture.
#7387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Psykhe View Post
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least).
This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.

However, if your weapons are different speeds, you want Executioner on the slower one (or no Executioner at all).
#7388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.
What do you mean with comparision? I still only posted because I thought that enh shammies in guilds that kill Teron should produce more than 1k DPS, and I will still not bend to that, but it doesnt really have a meaning or point anyway.
#7389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.

At any rate, i agree with you.
#7390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psykhe
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?
I think so. Please elaborate why you think it conflicts with the OP because I cannot see it.

(Exept me having a brainfart and using a 30% wf procrate. It is 20%.)

Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.
Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.

But, yes, the OH should have a smaller amount of WF procs. 20% less than the MH, though, not 36%.



The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.
#7391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Frostspock
My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.
#7392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Having more dps, same speed, and more valuable stats(30ap 8str 20hit vs 27crit), I'd say Fury should be a better off hand option than decapitator.

Unless running the sim point you to prioritize crit rating heavily, there is nothing agaist having more dps on your offhand than on your main hand
#7393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rodandwa
Originally Posted by Frostspock View Post
My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.
Fury main hand, Decapitator off-hand would be the better DPS combo, but since Fury is off-hand only, off-handing it with Decapitator will not lower your DPS. Go Decapitator main/Fury off.
#7394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Psykhe View Post
Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.
When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented. Each "pair" of attacks has a 59.04% chance of a WF proc. This is a mostly meaningless number which says nothing useful, though.

Originally Posted by Psykhe View Post
The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.
Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.
#7395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Touf
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.
Fight length, mainly.
#7396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.
Actually, this is the definition of "indeterministic" process (one where two runs can produce different outcomes). You are right that it is random, but it really isn't the same as purposely "rolling," it's simply an accident of asynchronous processing.

The reason for it makes sense when you think about it. Despite some of the great speculation on the issue, there's nothing really all that special about having two weapons of the same speed. Two same speed weapons will still have two separate swing timers producing two separate cycles and there's not even any guarantee that two weapons of the same speed will swing at the same time -- indeed, if you start and stop autoattack in combat, your offhand will be at least half a cycle out of sync with your main hand. Thus, it makes sense that each hand is treated as its own separate entity for purposes of evaluation, and it also makes sense that these evaluations may occur in any order, provided that they occur at the same "instant."

Simulators, on the other hand, no doubt evaluate the MH first over the OH, which will give the MH a bias that may not exist in game (the "spikes" in the MH vs OH graph). Anybody got two same-speed weapons and a good, real-world evaluation of MH vs OH procs and a comparison with simulations of the same gear?
#7397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by tepee007 View Post
I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?
This is sad.
You obviously didn't read the OP.....just like many, many others.
#7398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented.
This is what I was referring to as Psycke contradicting the OP. I know 20% is what the tooltip on the skill says, but that's not the reality of the skill, based on extensive testing.
#7399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i have not had a chance to read all 300 pages of this thread. i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here. for my rogue i have a exel spreadsheet that i can plug the armor that i currently have(armor, gems, weapons, enchants) and i can input my talent spec and then i hit a button and it lets me know a list of upgrades for that slot. Max DPS web site is close but doesn't have the plug in option my rogue one has. is there a exel spreadsheet file that i can download out there for enhancement shaman? if some1 has posted one in this thread that i have missed i am sorry but i missed it. i just want the number crunching to be a bit easier for me. i have a lot of good gear and am nowhere near what it seems i shood be in dps. granted i have been healing for 6 months and am not used to it but i shood be doing better IMO. i am a top 5 dps when i raid on my rogue so i know hoe to dps but need a lil help w/ my shammy.
#7400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by buzzed1979 View Post
i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here.
Far be it from me to call you a liar but did it seems almost impossible that one could manage to browse 'alot of it' without managing to read the entire first post. Try looking under '3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman' for an answer to your query.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i did say browsed. ty for the help. but when i click the link i don't see a speadsheet. there is a spot that is all grayed out at the top and then a bunch of q and a after it. am i missing something?
#7402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Kasi
Well you can use Loot Rank. That seemed to work pretty well using the weight values given. However that just gives a rank of items, not a rank of items based off of items you already have. The other thing is that they don't seem to model RED very well.
#7403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
The mathcraft for an enhancement shaman is more complex than a rogue. We don't use formulas, we use combat simulators and determine the impact of each stat.

Run yo's simulator with your stats and get your EP values. Copy them into lootrank to figure out what would the best upgrades for you.
#7404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
#7405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i am running enhancer in game aswell
#7406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
Originally Posted by buzzed1979 View Post
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
Try updating Java. And correct your grammar/capitalization/punctuation before a mod sees it.
#7407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Executioner, again

A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
#7408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
That worked thank you very much. I will try to capitolize from now on.
#7409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
Sim disagrees :S and to my knowledge I've never seen or been suggested executioner procs only allow the weapon it's enchanted on to gain the benefit. The reason MH vs OH enchant matters is for different speed weapons 2.6 vs 2.8, atleast is my understanding
#7410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
I always thought that executioner applies to both weapons, which is why putting it on both hands causes it to refresh the duration instead of having two buffs.
#7411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
I always thought that executioner applies to both weapons, which is why putting it on both hands causes it to refresh the duration instead of having two buffs.
I believe the mechanics make it such that having Exe on MH provides most DPS because if the MH applies Exe, and then Procs WF, you get 2 Exe WF'd hits from the MH, which will do a lot more than the OH...

Simming might not be completely accurate for testing, as the underlying mechanics of which weapon hits first may not be modeled exactly as it works in game. However, it has been shown that stop attacking, and starting will generally cause the MH to get the first hit...
#7412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Executioner is:
Occasionally ignore 840 of your enemy's armor.

Executiner is NOT:
Occasinal ignore 840 of your enemys's armor for only this hand weapon and if you use two executioner only one can be active at one time without any logigal reason.
Please dont post if you dont know what you are saying.
#7413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
I just played around with Yo!s sim this afternoon to test the new 2.4 stuff and wether maybe there would be mail stuff worth picking up. I did use the EP-values given by Yo!s "best-dps" lootrank link and was very glad to find belt, shoes and wrist at topranked or on the second place. This made me test with the sim if there was any combination of those 3 t6 parts and any of the 5 others worth taking over all the rogue stuff (which sadly still dominates the enh-shamans best-loot-list) and came out with a rather close (but still) "NO".
(did use the same combination of buffs as Yo! and came up with 2379dps for the "rogue" version and 2364dps for the 4t6 version)
I just wanted to let you know that shaman itemisation still s%cks

If anyone want to verify for themselves:
shaman-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
rogue-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (topranked lootrank items)

I just modeled the proc of Shard of Contempt like a "230AP for 20sec every minute = 83AP" (though cd is only 45sec, just to be sure)

edit: Oh man, just found a typo in the "rogue" one. It's only 2322 dps. So, get yourself some mail
#7414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Tier 6 pieces aren't upgraded to the actual "stamina" version. But the difference is still very small.

But the main point is, you are not competing for shoulder and the new tier slots, the only interesting items (for a leatherworker) are head/legs.

You should just wait, until the itemisation for hunter and shaman hit the patch until you try to compare all those things in detail. It can't be finished right now, we're still missing some pieces. Shoulders are hot, legs are decent. Chest and head are still missing as far as i know.

And a personal note, i would go for 4 t6 any day (with the three new pieces) for the style of the shoulders
#7415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Omniro View Post
I just played around with Yo!s sim this afternoon to test the new 2.4 stuff and wether maybe there would be mail stuff worth picking up. I did use the EP-values given by Yo!s "best-dps" lootrank link and was very glad to find belt, shoes and wrist at topranked or on the second place. This made me test with the sim if there was any combination of those 3 t6 parts and any of the 5 others worth taking over all the rogue stuff (which sadly still dominates the enh-shamans best-loot-list) and came out with a rather close (but still) "NO".
(did use the same combination of buffs as Yo! and came up with 2379dps for the "rogue" version and 2364dps for the 4t6 version)
I just wanted to let you know that shaman itemisation still s%cks

If anyone want to verify for themselves:
shaman-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
rogue-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (topranked lootrank items)

I just modeled the proc of Shard of Contempt like a "230AP for 20sec every minute = 83AP" (though cd is only 45sec, just to be sure)

edit: Oh man, just found a typo in the "rogue" one. It's only 2322 dps. So, get yourself some mail
I dont know about you, but for me the DST > Madness, so the two best trinkets would be DST+SoC for me at least. Any particular reason you've chosen Madness over DST?
#7416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Is there a way to see how stats will change with different gear so I can run Yo simulator to analyze which gear provides the best upgrade?
#7417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34679

Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Items - World of Warcraft


Interesting notes about these pendants:

- Pendant of Might has a direct damage "Arcane Strike" if you're Scryer, and a 200ap/10sec buff if you're Aldor.
- Pendant of Resolve has a +100 expertise/10sec buff if you're Scryer.

Has anybody done any math on either to see if they may be secretly superior to Serrated Blades/Hard Khorium/Whatever?
#7418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rhaegal
Since I can't get to my own personal EP values, I'll just use the T6 values listed on the front page:

18 Agi = 30.42 EP
64 AP = 64 EP
Passive EP: 94.4

If the proc has the same cooldown as all the trinkets, etc. (45 seconds), it's reasonable to assume that it will proc at worst once per minute for the sake of argument, so:

Scryer: (100 crit rating x 1.74 EP/crit) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 29 EP minimum
Aldor: (200 AP x 1EP/AP) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 33 EP minimum

Total ~124 EP for Scryer, 128 for Aldor. Not better than Serrated Blades, let alone the Hard Khorium neck. Obviously that assumes the typical trinket internal CD, which may be totally wrong for necks. My guess is that it won't be terribly far off, though, considering you can get it just for grinding rep. It's a pretty solid step above Kara loot, though, which makes it significantly better than all the other exalted faction rewards, even the expertise LC ring.

Obviously this is mostly meaningless speculation since we have no real data on the proc mechanics, so insert grains of salt as thou wilt.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/26/08 at 1:21 PM.
#7419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
Since I can't get to my own personal EP values, I'll just use the T6 values listed on the front page:

18 Agi = 30.42 EP
64 AP = 64 EP
Passive EP: 94.4

If the proc has the same cooldown as all the trinkets, etc. (45 seconds), it's reasonable to assume that it will proc at worst once per minute for the sake of argument, so:

Scryer: (100 crit rating x 1.74 EP/crit) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 29 EP minimum
Aldor: (200 AP x 1EP/AP) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 33 EP minimum

Total ~124 EP for Scryer, 128 for Aldor. Not better than Serrated Blades, let alone the Hard Khorium neck. Obviously that assumes the typical trinket internal CD, which may be totally wrong for necks. My guess is that it won't be terribly far off, though, considering you can get it just for grinding rep. It's a pretty solid step above Kara loot, though, which makes it significantly better than all the other exalted faction rewards, even the expertise LC ring.

Obviously this is mostly meaningless speculation since we have no real data on the proc mechanics, so insert grains of salt as thou wilt.
FYI, the Scryer version does NOT grant crit rating. It actually procs a spell called Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft) that does 500 damage to the current target.

I'm also interested in the Pendent of Resolve with its huge Expertise proc..
#7420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Has the internal cooldown on windfury on haste been completely shot down? I have hundreds of haste pots, dst, and quite a bit of haste gear paired with quite a bit of free time and a copy of my shaman on the ptr, if anyone could tell me how to test it (if it still needs testing). I grabbed the wf cd addon, anything else I need to know/download?
I did not see a response to this. Dukanull did you do any testing?
#7421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
I dont know about you, but for me the DST > Madness, so the two best trinkets would be DST+SoC for me at least. Any particular reason you've chosen Madness over DST?
Well, I saw the very high Armor Penetration on the gear (over 1k) and also used Executioner on the MH. And as it is (I think) the more ArmorPen one has the better gets every next point of it. Madness provides an ArmorPen buff so it was about logical for me to go for that.
I'd be happy if you have time to run the numbers to prove me wrong or right
#7422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Don't forget this beauty when comparing future trinket choices:

Blackened Naaru Sliver
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70.
Equip: Increases Haste Rating by 54.
Equip: Chance on hit to enter a Battle Trance, during which your melee or ranged attacks will grant 44 attack power, stacking up to 10 times. Expires after 20 sec.

Depending on the procrate on that, I'd say it's damn sexy.
#7423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Grekk
EDIT: My assumption has been proven wrong, check the next page for the explanation.

Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:
(using 2.8MH and 2.6OH)
In my case the 5.9% passive haste combined with dual Mongoose and heroism (and of course flurry) will bring my
MH speed to about 1.5x, once i use drums it drops to 1.4x. (the Sim takes care of Mongoose and Flurry)

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is lowered by a factor of (in my case) 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5. Any haste before this is worth exactly as much as Yos Simulator tells you. The new AEP weight is dependant on the length of the fight relative to the hasted time.
(the same with usable trinkets that are best if the fight is exactly 140 seconds long)

My calculated haste-AEP is 1.81.
If the fight is 3 minutes (180 seconds) long, i will spend 25% of the Time hasted to 1.4x.
So basically 25% of the time my haste (beyond the 'cap') is only worth 28.6% of it's original value (loses 71.4%).
Over the whole fight haste will therefore lose 0.25*0.714 = 0.1785 = 17.85% of it's original value.
My haste-AEP for a 3 minute fight where heroism always puts me below the 'cap' is (1-0.1785)*1.81 = 1.4869.

correct me if I'm wrong :P

Last edited by Grekk : 02/26/08 at 11:25 PM. Reason: clarification
#7424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Don't forget this beauty when comparing future trinket choices:

Blackened Naaru Sliver
Binkenstein was doing some leg work on figuring out how to model that stacking effect, I think he said he had it figured it out. I'll check with him about it.
#7425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Grekk View Post
Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is (in my case) lowered by a factor of 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

correct me if I'm wrong :P
Expanding from this, it would also seem to show that you gain the most benefit from haste items (pots, bloodlust, and drums) by using them individually, rather than all at once. It looks like I should start using haste potions in rotation with my drums and bloodlust. Probably I'll be burning the drums first, since the buff is slightly smaller and I'll be less likely to pull aggro as a result.

Of course, that has nothing to do with AEP values for haste...

I'd guess that the AEP value doesn't magically plummet once you break 1.5, but rather that it scales proportionately, such that as you build haste rating, the value of additional points lessens. This means that there would be some theoretical point at which additional haste rating is worth less than any other stat. It's been a long time since I was interpolating graphs, but if you can get me, say, 5 points of data (evenly spaced by haste rating increases preferred), I can see if I can come up with a formula for calculating haste value. Sure hope I remember the math correctly - I'll post it all here so other people can verify it.

Keep in mind that pretty much any enhance shaman in a raid will have nearly 100% uptime of flurry, for an automatic 30% haste right off the bat.

Something else: As haste rating increases, and the cooldown of stormstrike (as well as the 3-second cooldown of WF) remains static, the percentage of hits that are white damage vs. those that are yellow damage will increase. Thus, hit rating will gain in value as haste rating increases. Might be worth investigating whether or not the percentage change in white hits vs. yellow hits is significant enough to warrant a greater AEP for hit rating when using lots of haste buffs.

Conversely, people with almost no haste rating on their gear may reach a point at which their weapons are so powerful and slow that the haste rating to gloves enchant outperforms 15 strength. I personally doubt it, but while I'm spouting ideas, I figured I'd throw this one out there, too.

Something else I thought of - as your haste rating increases, the number of hits that you get during the duration of timed buffs will increase, thus increasing the value of those buffs. Anyone want to run some sims and see if it's more valuable to stack haste potions and drums that increase AP than to rotate haste drums and haste potions? I'm assuming from the OP that stacking haste drums and haste pots is automatically less dps than rotating them.

Likewise, stacking more haste will increase the value of items that provide timed buffs, such as the stonebreaker's totem. I don't think that any significant changes in top gear will result though, since most of those buff items are either already top-level, or provide buffs of such short duration as to be relatively insignificant AEP changes from 1 or 2 extra hits of haste.
#7476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Squidfury
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
spamstring? they'll just have to put it on you twice as much; won't change much

In GW, if you are hamstrung, and they are frost shocked, you will move much faster than they will. That said, you still arent going to get away from a warrior for long. As enhancement it would be better to just face them.

I can see forcing a rogue to sprint, but I wouldnt run too much from a rogue. Probably not worth trying to get them to blow sprint.

Anyway, its not an escape mechanism anyway ( at least reliably). What it does allow ,is us to catch every single class. Noone can escape. Its not a magical fix to the class in and of itself, but its a major buff in my opinion.

The change to flametongue definately makes us much more viable in 2v2. The most successful teams as enhancement seem to be dual DPS. Adding in a healing debuff makes that much better. Enhancement/frost mage will benefit greatly from this.
#7477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
#7478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3McMullet
My question is regarding Executioner and Cloth Bosses.

I know we are still preferred to have Mongoose/Mongoose as stated in the main page. However has anyone done any tests on bosses that are considered "Caster" Bosses (Solarian, Kael, Rage, etc?)

For myself I sport about 1620 AP, 29% crit and 140 Hit with about 120 Armor Ignore. This is my regular gear with Mongoose/Mongoose. This is what I use for most boss fights.

Now when I have been doing the cloth bosses I have been dropping to about 1500 AP and 28% crit, but keeping the 140 Hit and also hitting 520 unbuffed AI. In this case I am seeing some pretty impressive DPS numbers especially when executioner goes off. (Mongoose / Exec)

So my question is... Has there been any simulations run which would support Executioner as the preferred imbue given a cloth boss and a healthy dose of AI already?
#7479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
Mana gained from a proc is buffed from 15% to 30% to compensate.
#7480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
It's rediculous how fast you get a full mana bar now.

As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example. I think these latest changes will make enh shammys Very viable in 2's and 3's, with most DPS classes/specs. Going to be interesting to see how it pans out really.

The SR duration "nerf" is very well needed for the latest PvP changes I Think. I would hope for a revert on that, but I guess it's only fair?

The Totem GCD was about time! I think this will generally make life as any shaman spec during raids alot better, and not as frustrating as it can be now at times. Also very needed for PvP. Good change overall

*edit* I know this thread is not about PvP, but I hope it's ok to discuss PTR changes here anyway.
#7481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Hi there,
I'm checking this thread nearly daily but most time as reader only. Now I have a small question, for which I hope I will not be flamed.

It's about weapon expertise and the AEP value.
There is this necklace available for heroic badges:
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

To get AEP values i normally use Enhancer to just show me in the tooltip. But it has bugged me why this necklace is performing so miserable. Enhancer showed me an AEP value of 36.3.

My current weights for hitrating and weapon expertise are 1.65 and 3.1 (got with Yo's simulator)

So it's rather easy to calculate
22*1.65+21*3.1=101.4

Am I right or am I missing something?

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.

If your not telling me I went somewhere wrong, I'll have a look at the code.

PS: If my English is quite bad, sorry I'm not a native speaker but I'm trying to do my best
#7482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
#7483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Sounds like you already found the answer, its a problem with that mod.
#7484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
#7485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
12str is better from a raiding PoV. Enchanting rings is always nice, and will probably benefit you more than most other profs.

The margins are so small however (imo) that I would just go for whatever you think is the most fun/profitable. Good thing that JC and enchanting is profitable when used correctly
#7486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by drats View Post
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
#7487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example.
I'll readily admit I'm not a hardcore, or even decent, pvp'er. My issue, in a theoretical sense, is that the changes seem to be akin to moving the branches 4" away from Tantalus instead of 8". But I think from here on I'll stop commenting until I can actually try it.
#7488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).
Blacksmithing and Leatherworking both offer access to craftables that will help you save your DKP, but neither offer best-in-game items anymore. (Fingers crossed for a major upgrade for Dragonstrike).

However, Leatherworking allows access to drums of battle, which is the equivalent of 20 haste rating. 36.4 EP

2x Ring enchant is worth 8 STR 8 AGI that no other profession gets. 31.12 EP

JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.

In summary: BS/Leatherworking will get you geared a little easier. If getting gear is not an issue, Leatherworking/Enchanting will give you a 67 EP edge.
#7489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
Come 2.4 my values show at least two LW items that are top of the line, so LW still goes strong in my opinon. I regret spending the time and money leveling BS now though.
#7490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.
#7491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm on PTR right now, twisting is still possible and it's ridiculously easy now with the new GCD. We're raiding Felmyst tonight, so we'll see how the new Shamanistic Rage works out but I'm expecting a similiar, perhaps little less mana regained from it. They had to shorten the duration when they made it undispellable, it would've been ridiculously OP in PvP.
#7492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
One thing I would be interested to see is if this new FT debuff will have an impact on PVE. Admittedly, I don't do much high end raiding, but if the MS effect also works on NPCs then it might be viable in that situation as well. This would reduce our overall output in dps, but wouldn't this fill our main role of "enhancing" the rest of the raid in specific fights? Throwing a 1.5 speed OH with flametongue into the defaults of Yo!'s sim reduces overall DPS by about 50.
#7493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.
#7494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yakout
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.
This is actually not true. There is, alas, no JC-only +Str gem (JC BoP gems); we must as usual settle for AP. However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades], which when stuck in the right yellow socket (e.g., [Insidious Bands]) can outperform a BCS, counts as a yellow stone for RED activation, and doesn't take a CS to cut.

2.4 shall also bring the [Choker of Endless Nightmares]-with-Stamina, [Hard Khorium Choker] (another fine candidate for socketing a SoB), as well as [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] for those lower in progression or to whom the RNG has been particularly cruel in terms of trinket drops.

Last edited by Yakout : 02/28/08 at 1:04 PM.
#7495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bruster
Has anyone done the path PvP wise for 2.4? That is if the changes last night will stay that way.

Would it be better to use a fast OH and FT now with the healing debuff? Or would it still be smarter to stay with the slow off hand with FT, plus if you're against dps team you could keep WF on the OH.
#7496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There's a pvp thread dedicated to that, direct your reading there.
#7497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Here's a quick link to the Enhancement PvP thread, it's linked to where the weapon speed and FT was mentioned with regards to the new patch...there's a lot of other little tid-bits on using a fast weapon and FT running around in many, many other locations.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ?

Conversation on weapon speeds looks to have started around post 366, no for sure answer yet. Looks like it will generally be up to personal prefference.
#7498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
drats
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.

@Seidule: When 2.4 hits I'm guessing JC/Leatherworking will be the best combination. Leatherworking for Drums and BOP gear, and JC for the SWP neck and epic BOP gems. Note: this is speculation until we've seen the full Sunwell loot table.

[e] Here's the JC neck I was talking about: Hard Khorium Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. There's also a nice haste ring, but I don't think it's better than the MH one: Hard Khorium Band - Items - World of Warcraft

Last edited by drats : 02/28/08 at 2:51 PM.
#7499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
First: THANK YOU Hedin! <3 for the combat log help in the mod.

Second: The two different events - WF Mainhand Proc and WF Offhand Proc have separate event IDs in the combatlog. Now it will be a lot easier if people want to track stuff like that. (Note, I can't confirm what I just wrote, but so far event 33750 is always an offhand WF proc, and event 25504 is always a mainhand windfury. So, statistically that looks like a good bet so far).

I'm having a lot of fun with the new combat log stuff. Hedin Rocks.
#7500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yakout View Post
However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades]
Which is 1 EP better than Inscribed Pyrestone (20.8 EP vs. 19.7 EP).

Along with the +24 AP vs the BCS, which with kings is 22 AP (benefit 2 AP), total endgame benefit of JC gems: 3 EP

With the T6 EP values, [Hard Khorium Choker] is 26 EP better than [Clutch of Demise], both are better than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. So JC is worth about 29 EP in the very top of the endgame; still be better off with LW/Enchanting.

However, at the not-quite-the-endgame, it could be pretty valuable -- the Hard Khorium neck is 55 EP better than the best neck in Black Temple.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/28/08 at 3:13 PM.
#7551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Quick question:

Does anyone run a macro for their shock rotation? If so, how do you have it configured?

Thanks.
#7552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Killme888
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
If I'm not mistaken, 5.6% is the max dodge of l73 mobs. Because expertise is calculated in .25% chunks, after 5.75% dodge reduction you'll see NO benefit from expertise. 5.75% * (.25% dodge reduction/Experise) = 23 Expertise * (3.96 ER / Expertise) = 91 Expertise Rating.

Where the heck did they get 103? That would be a dodge of 6.5%. One of us is dyslexic (probably me).

In PvP, maybe stacking more will help against evading rogues and prot warriors. But not as much as good ole' AP, I imagine.
Pretty sure they think it's 9% dodge vs 73 mobs, that's 36 expertise required to hit 0, but rogues have 10 expertise through talent, so 26.

26 * 3.94 = 102.44 aka 103.

So we just need to find out if it's 9% dodge or 5.6%. I can see why it could be 9% though, pre-BC miss rate vs 73 using 2H was also 5.6%, but it's been changed and now it's 9%.
#7553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!
Have you tried the T6 in a raid and checked the difference from earlier raids? I mean a DPS difference of 53 is quite a lot and this could be the simulator calculating the 4p bonus in a wierd way? I just dont see how a 70AP bonus can boost your DPS by 53 by itself.
#7554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Paradox
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Have you tried the T6 in a raid and checked the difference from earlier raids? I mean a DPS difference of 53 is quite a lot and this could be the simulator calculating the 4p bonus in a wierd way? I just dont see how a 70AP bonus can boost your DPS by 53 by itself.
I havn't tried it in a raid yet but I don't exactly keep track of my exact DPS on each boss, and even then it can vary quite a lot week to week.

Edit: Was also wondering how long a Fire Elemental is useful for until it's DPS is less than that of a searing totem? Anyone have an amount of time until it's mana gets fully drained or anything? Is it even better to drop if you have the CD up than a searing?

Last edited by Paradox : 03/01/08 at 11:34 AM.
#7555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vindicated
Shard of Contempt EP Value

Just wanted to quickly check this. Would this be correct - just wondering for my personal use.
Shard of Contempt 206.28 EP = ( (44 * ExpertiseRating) + ( 230 * 20 * 0.9 / 60) )

Assuming ExpertiseRating = 3.12 (Tier 6 Value) and .9PPM
#7556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yasuhiko
12:45 AM math has never been my specialty.....
I was going to say something, but after looking over my math, I somehow found out I was wrong, but don't quite believe myself.

I'm going to go back to theorizing on FT in arenas (which I believe is not as weak in PvP gear as it is in PvE gear becuase WF is more stat-scalar. Yeah, forget his post is here, carry on gents.)
#7557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hawkawkarl
There used to be a section in the opening post the gave some target numbers for what a shaman should have to start raiding 25mans. I think it was 1200ap and some number of crit. Has there been any discussion on what a shaman should have by the time they move to the next tier of rairdng.

ie You should have 1400ap/27% crit before walking TK/SSC and 1550ap/29% crit when walking into BT/MtH? Those numbers are abritrary but the concept is, what numbers should you have after rolling on the expected gear from a given tier of raiding.

Any thoughts to bring that back and expand on it?

edit: grammer/spelling

Last edited by Hawkawkarl : 03/04/08 at 2:41 PM.
#7558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Edit: Was also wondering how long a Fire Elemental is useful for until it's DPS is less than that of a searing totem? Anyone have an amount of time until it's mana gets fully drained or anything? Is it even better to drop if you have the CD up than a searing?
Pretty sure this point doesn't exist. Fire elementals seem to have a passive AoE Fire Shield that even against one target does more damage than a Searing Totem. Either that or it's an autoattack that he has that registers as a fire shield on my screen for some reason. Either way, its non-mana-based damage is greater than that of a Searing Totem, and they regen mana fairly quickly while they're just hitting passively.
#7559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
Some time ago we was talking stormstrike mechanich and how unique it is. There was some theory that SS is three phase spell. I was playing with my org gear([The Bladefist] + [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) and used SS to critter. Result was very odd there was single SS hit + 3 * flametongue totem proc. I tested also SS with DW and there was three procs too. Then I invited retri paladin and warrior to my group and we tested and tested. Whirlwind only procced one time. Seal of command procced it twice but there was little messy combat log results. Would it been that only SS is buggin with flametongue totem or is there big problem coming when 2.4 arrive and flame tongue totem got also ms effect. If anyone have spare time can you redo my SS test or explain me why SS is so bugged with this totem and other isntants arent.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 03/01/08 at 1:10 PM.
#7560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!
Ok, in an effort to get to the bottom of this I started doing it allover again and checking things, DPS with offset turned out the same, then I did the T6 again and I got a DPS of 1382 (2-3 dps less than offset). I guess it was some kind of bug I had yesterday showing it giving about 50 more DPS with T6? Still.. makes me consider wearing T6 since it looks much nicer, for a 2-3 dps loss..

Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
Pretty sure this point doesn't exist. Fire elementals seem to have a passive AoE Fire Shield that even against one target does more damage than a Searing Totem. Either that or it's an autoattack that he has that registers as a fire shield on my screen for some reason. Either way, its non-mana-based damage is greater than that of a Searing Totem, and they regen mana fairly quickly while they're just hitting passively.
Thanks!
#7561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mox
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Some time ago we was talking stormstrike mechanich and how unique it is. There was some theory that SS is three phase spell. I was playing with my org gear([The Bladefist] + [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) and used SS to critter. Result was very odd there was single SS hit + 3 * flametongue totem proc. I tested also SS with DW and there was three procs too. Then I invited retri paladin and warrior to my group and we tested and tested. Whirlwind only procced one time. Seal of command procced it twice but there was little messy combat log results. Would it been that only SS is buggin with flametongue totem or is there big problem coming when 2.4 arrive and flame tongue totem got also ms effect. If anyone have spare time can you redo my SS test or explain me why SS is so bugged with this totem and other isntants arent.
Is this on live? Just (right now) tested it on PTR and got this:

Stormstrike with FT Totem

MH SS
FT Proc - From totem
OH SS
FT Proc - From totem

[e] Confirmed 3 procs if you use FT totem + FT wep buff on OH.

FT Totem + FT buff

MH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
OH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
FT Proc (from OH buff) - 176 dmg

I guess the real (bug?) question here is why does the OH hit from stormstrike proc a MH wep imbue.

[e2] Just been playing around with different combos like FT totem + OH WF and stuff like that, and was able to get:

MH SS
FT Proc - from totem
OH SS
FT Proc - from totem
FT Proc - from totem

Using FT totem + OH WF. So yeah I'd say thats pretty conclusion that its very bugged!

FT and WF

It must be crazily bugged because the FT totem procs do not apply the healing debuff at all currently, even when they proc from a normal attack.

Last edited by Mox : 03/01/08 at 1:54 PM. Reason: Updating information
#7562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Is this on live? Just (right now) tested it on PTR and got this:

Stormstrike with FT Totem

MH SS
FT Proc - From totem
OH SS
FT Proc - From totem

[e] Confirmed 3 procs if you use FT totem + FT wep buff on OH.

FT Totem + FT buff

MH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
OH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
FT Proc (from OH buff) - 176 dmg

I guess the real (bug?) question here is why does the OH hit from stormstrike proc a MH wep imbue.

[e2] Just been playing around with different combos like FT totem + OH WF and stuff like that, and was able to get:

MH SS
FT Proc - from totem
OH SS
FT Proc - from totem
FT Proc - from totem

Using FT totem + OH WF. So yeah I'd say thats pretty conclusion that its very bugged!

FT and WF

It must be crazily bugged because the FT totem procs do not apply the healing debuff at all currently, even when they proc from a normal attack.
It probably has to do with the fact that Stormstrike hit/miss/dodge/parry calculation affects the offhand as well. When you use SS and it misses, is dodged or parried, you wont get the second hit of the special. So essentially in this case, the FT Totem enchanting your MH gives your OH SS attack the enchant as well.
#7563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dahri
I had a question regarding Yo's simulator. It currently doesn't work on OS X as far as I can tell. I had to reboot into Vista in order to use it.

This led me to wonder if the source code to the simulator has been made available at all. If so, I would be interested in writing a port of the simulator (as a native application on OS X).

While I could start from scratch when building a new simulator, I'd rather build on work that has already been done, so that I don't fall into any mathematical traps when coding my own.
#7564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Its java, there is nothing to "port" as it is a multiplatform language. The problem is that OS X Leopard is not compatible with Java 6 yet.
#7565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dahri
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its java, there is nothing to "port" as it is a multiplatform language. The problem is that OS X Leopard is not compatible with Java 6 yet.
I'm aware of that. The lack of Java 6 on Leopard is why I was interested in coding a simulator in Objective-C. If Java 6 is going to be available soon, though, maybe it doesn't matter.
#7566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Dahri View Post
I'm aware of that. The lack of Java 6 on Leopard is why I was interested in coding a simulator in Objective-C. If Java 6 is going to be available soon, though, maybe it doesn't matter.
Java 6 will come "eventually" but who knows when?

In the meantime, it would probably be much more efficient to modify the Java to run in 10.5.
#7567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats
#7568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vingumminr9
Ive been wondering a bit about how many EP the 3% increased crit dmg from [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
is worth at my state (5/6 ssc - 2/4 tk ..soon 3/4 :P) and just in general
got 1600ap & 32% crit unbuffed atm, 133 hit rating, and 329 Ignore armor,
#7569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats

I glanced over the WWS a bit and concluded that it's very hard to judge from that parse as in a lot of attempts either you or him died early or whatever else random. What I did notice that he had a better shock rotation than you, you have too much FS uptime compared to your ES. Don't you overwrite FS debuffs with eachother? I also noticed in your Anetheron kill that he had a lot more Rallying Cry - Spells - World of Warcraft gains than you. That could explain the difference.

Then I looked at the Armory. It's very likely that the reason he's doing more DPS than you is that he is using the 4 piece Cataclysm bonus. Don't take me on my word for it, but I'm pretty sure that'll make him do more DPS than you until you get further into the content. You're also sporting quite a lot of -Armor which at your point of progression isn't very hot yet.

Again, don't take my word for the above. I can't back it up with any math, but I seem to recall the 5% more haste on Flurry being a significant buff.
And don't forget. Shaman DPS can vary a lot.
#7570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I glanced over the WWS a bit and concluded that it's very hard to judge from that parse as in a lot of attempts either you or him died early or whatever else random. What I did notice that he had a better shock rotation than you, you have too much FS uptime compared to your ES. Don't you overwrite FS debuffs with eachother? I also noticed in your Anetheron kill that he had a lot more Rallying Cry - Spells - World of Warcraft gains than you. That could explain the difference.

Then I looked at the Armory. It's very likely that the reason he's doing more DPS than you is that he is using the 4 piece Cataclysm bonus. Don't take me on my word for it, but I'm pretty sure that'll make him do more DPS than you until you get further into the content. You're also sporting quite a lot of -Armor which at your point of progression isn't very hot yet.

Again, don't take my word for the above. I can't back it up with any math, but I seem to recall the 5% more haste on Flurry being a significant buff.
And don't forget. Shaman DPS can vary a lot.
Yeah, when I'm twisting I can't keep the normal FS/ES/FS roatation. So often times I just have to reapply FS.

These are all our WWS reports, maybe you can see something better from these. I do agree that the T5 4 pc set bonus is pretty wicked. Still don't know whether it should be keeping him that high on his DPS tho.


Wow Web Stats
#7571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xiongmao
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats
Just going with the Teron WWS parse:

For group composition, both of you received battle shout, and LoTP. The retribution paladin gives both of you 3% more crit and gives you 2% more damage, which relative to other buffs is not that major. Not sure about hunter, but I do not see Ferocious Inspiration, and I am not sure if TSA would show up on buff/debuffs in WWS. Thus in that particular encounter you both had similar buffs.

For totem twisting, you will actually see a lower shocks/minute than Karshie. Not 100% sure if the extra crit gained for 90% of the time makes up for this. Totem twisting is primarily to increase your group's total dps.

Teron is a short enough fight that RNG factors come into play, for example I have had parses with 50% crit rate on white attacks and 25% crit rate on Stormstrike, or some ridiculous miss% on my specials. In your WWS, while both your hit is similar, he had 5% less missed white attacks and 1% less missed WF attacks.

While you did less damage than he did, your dps was actually higher than his. Looking at both your DPS times, you have a 75% dps time, and he has a 97% dps time. The way WWS works, if you were to anhk after finishing your ghosts your dps would actually drop quite a bit.

These are just some things to note if you are trying to compare your DPS with him via WWS. Enhancement shaman dps is not very stable from week to week, especially with the short duration of "good" parse fights in Hyjal/BT. If Yo's simulator shows that you should be doing 200 more dps than him (there is an option for 4 piece t5 by the way, make sure to select that) and you consistently perform on or below par with him, it might be a playstyle issue. Simple things like hitting all cooldowns as soon as they are up GCD allowing; aggressiveness, running back in a couple ticks before Death and Decay finishes to do more dps; attentiveness, hell after a long week, there's been times the boss has been shifted and it takes me 5+ seconds to notice I am out of meelee range, etc. You say that you guys don't always have 2 enhancement shamans in the raid, thus it can be hard to compare your dps to his without a greater sample size.
#7572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Xiongmao View Post
Just going with the Teron WWS parse:

For group composition, both of you received battle shout, and LoTP. The retribution paladin gives both of you 3% more crit and gives you 2% more damage, which relative to other buffs is not that major. Not sure about hunter, but I do not see Ferocious Inspiration, and I am not sure if TSA would show up on buff/debuffs in WWS. Thus in that particular encounter you both had similar buffs.

For totem twisting, you will actually see a lower shocks/minute than Karshie. Not 100% sure if the extra crit gained for 90% of the time makes up for this. Totem twisting is primarily to increase your group's total dps.

Teron is a short enough fight that RNG factors come into play, for example I have had parses with 50% crit rate on white attacks and 25% crit rate on Stormstrike, or some ridiculous miss% on my specials. In your WWS, while both your hit is similar, he had 5% less missed white attacks and 1% less missed WF attacks.

While you did less damage than he did, your dps was actually higher than his. Looking at both your DPS times, you have a 75% dps time, and he has a 97% dps time. The way WWS works, if you were to anhk after finishing your ghosts your dps would actually drop quite a bit.

These are just some things to note if you are trying to compare your DPS with him via WWS. Enhancement shaman dps is not very stable from week to week, especially with the short duration of "good" parse fights in Hyjal/BT. If Yo's simulator shows that you should be doing 200 more dps than him (there is an option for 4 piece t5 by the way, make sure to select that) and you consistently perform on or below par with him, it might be a playstyle issue. Simple things like hitting all cooldowns as soon as they are up GCD allowing; aggressiveness, running back in a couple ticks before Death and Decay finishes to do more dps; attentiveness, hell after a long week, there's been times the boss has been shifted and it takes me 5+ seconds to notice I am out of meelee range, etc. You say that you guys don't always have 2 enhancement shamans in the raid, thus it can be hard to compare your dps to his without a greater sample size.
Ok, so is Battleshout a multi-party buff? Because Karshie was in the tank group which had no warrior. Also, I didn't have the ret pally in my group, but maybe he did? I can't really remember. I'm a little confused on that end. On that Teron fight I got ghosted somewhere midway and he got a full run on Teron. I tried rezzing and coming back to the fight. . .nobody healed me and I gotta insta-gibbed once I got back.

Like I was saying, I don't think it's a playstyle issue. I'm working my butt off hitting SS at the correct time, trying to keep my shock rotation up, etc. It isn't like he's blowing me away or whatever, it just seems like I should be quite a bit above him and I'm not.

On this subject. . .Sunder X5 is going to be exponentially better the more armor pen you're carrying, right? Our Warlocks don't use CoR....
#7573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
That's confusing. From a quick glance, he was the only one who gained Battle Shout in that group? Did he get switched midfight into some other group perhaps? It's pretty weird.
#7574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
That's confusing. From a quick glance, he was the only one who gained Battle Shout in that group? Did he get switched midfight into some other group perhaps? It's pretty weird.
Actually, I think once I got ghosted I told the raid leader to switch us so the melee group could get totems. Maybe that's why he got Battleshout on the WWS report.
#7575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
I've got two issues that came up in a Gruul raid today. I was in a group with 3 rogues and a holy paladin. This brought up two separate questions.

First, the raid leader said he wanted the paladin in our group because of aura, in this particular case Concentration Aura (gives a 35% chance of ignoring spell interruption when damaged to all party members within 30 yards). I'm not sure if this was the best aura to use for this group, but puttin that aside which is best: 1) a paladin using an aura appropriate for a melee group; or 2) substituting the paladin with aonther melee dps who can make better use of Windfury totem?

Second, one of the rogues had poisons on his daggers. We were trying to figure out why he wasn't getting any Windfury procs and finally figured that out. Does anyone have a good comparison of rogues using poisons versus utilizing Windfury?

Thanks.
#7726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Shocktherapy:
1. YO's sim tell answer to you.
2. YO's sim tell answer to you.

Edit: too slow.
#7727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bellante
Originally Posted by Shocktherapy View Post
I got two questions for the community.
I was planning on buying the two new fistweapons that's purchasable with badgets in 2.4 since they seem very good. I'm having second thoughts now though cause since I'm an Orc would it actually be any point since they're pretty fast, and I'd lose the expertise bonus of wielding two axes? Would it be better to stick with my Wicked Edge of Planes and pick up Rising Tide in the offhand. Would the gain of a few dps on the new weapons actually win over two slower axes?

The second question is about Executioner enchant. My guild has cleared Hyjal and are currently working our way through BT, and as I understand it Executioner gets better the more actual Armor Penetration you have passively on your gear. I've currently got roughly 650 passive Armor Penetration, but thats mostly from my ZA and PvP gear. The more I gear up in Hyjal/BT the less Armor Penetration I'm gonna have. Would Executioner still be the best Main Hand enchant to wield?

Thanks in advance.
The number of daily questions in this thread that can be answered with "just read the OP and learn to use yo!'s simulator" are getting sickening. Funny thing is, often the same people complain that the thread is over 300 pages long.

In short, use yo's simulator, check it all out with different gear combinations and enough hours (dont check EP calculations if you're just checking what gives most dps) of hack and slash.

I personally did some runs of the new badge weapons and found that swapping e.g. the main hand for my talon of the phoenix as mh (changed to syphon since), rising tide as oh, netted me a drop in dps.

You can do similar checks of weapon enchants. Now shoo.
#7728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.

The bias towards slow weapons shows up when you consider that instant attacks like SS and WF can also proc these effects and as far as I know(please correct me if this is wrong) their chance to proc is based on the weapons adjusted chance to proc. so in the case of a 3.0 weapon each SS and WF hit have a 5% chance to proc the 1 ppm effect. A 1.0 speed weapon would only have 1.67% chance to proc the same effect on each attack including SS and WF. So although their white hits should result in the same number of procs, the higher chance on special attacks for the slow weapon skews the results in favor of it.
So if flurry is up, I have a smaller chance of WF proccing a PPM effect than if flurry is not up? I'm trying to make sure I get the gist of what you're saying. Also, is the PPM proc % recalculated when your weapon speed changes? Or will casting SR when you have 2.6 weapon speed lock in that %, even if you later - but during the duration of the buff - increase weapon speed, say, with flurry or bloodlust/heroism?

Originally Posted by Hodor View Post
About the PPM thing. This is how I understand it (using unrealistically extreme examples, that should however get the point across):

Lets say you have a 60.0 speed weapon and a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 100% chance to proc per hit.
Now, lets say you have a 6.0 speed weapon and still a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 10% chance to proc per hit.

Now, assuming you have only white attacks, the 60.0 and the 6.0 speed weapons will have the same result.

However, if you have additional special attacks that can also proc, the situation changes.

Lets say you have one special attack every 6 seconds (10 in one Minute).

With the 60.0 speed weapon, this means you will have 1 proc from the white attacks plus an additional 10 procs from the special attacks. A total of 11 procs.

With the 6.0 speed weapon, you still have 1 proc from the white attacks, but now you have only a single additional proc from the special attacks, because your attacks only have a 10% proc chance. This means you only have 2 procs.

In short, slow weapons = more procs = better.
Okay, so I get that slow weapons = more procs from instant attacks, and that instant attacks don't figure in to the PPM's proc % calculation, but isn't there still a possibility that the PPM rate could be so high as to give more procs on faster weapons? Using extreme examples, if an item is 60 PPM, using a 60.0 speed weapon will generate 1 proc, and using a 1.0 speed weapon will generate 60 procs. Add in as many instant attacks as you like, and you'll still get 100% proc rates from both speeds of weapon.

I suppose it boils down to: What's the PPM of SR? it seems really high to me, I proc on almost every hit with my 2.6 speed weapons.
#7729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imabug
I do have a question for my Shaman's mainhand: Currently, I've been using Fool's Bane in my mainhand on my Shaman, but I do have a Bladefist sitting in my bags currently. Normally, I'd run a sim of both, but there's a problem - How would I evaluate the Bladefist's Haste buff? Especially in a 'stop and go' situation? Since it's a PPM buff, not a percentile, the more downtime, obviously, the more valuable. But if I wanted to test between the two for a Void Reaver fight, for example, how would I judge it?

I thought for a while to judge it as a 1 PPM buff with the 180 Haste rating and listing it as +30 on the sim (Despite what WoWhead comments say, I haven't ever gotten more than 2 proc's in a minute, and that's EXTREMELY rare), but I wans't sure if that really would be viable, seeing as how the 180 Haste for 10 seconds might not really equal 30 constant, due to how it would affect my weapon speed, and if Mongoose went off at the same time.

Can anyone offer me an idea on how to 'sort of' estimate the Bladefist in the sim? Or do you think it would be perfectly acceptable to put in the 30 haste rating instead, without worrying about the windfury timer? Thanks!
#7730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
So if flurry is up, I have a smaller chance of WF proccing a PPM effect than if flurry is not up? I'm trying to make sure I get the gist of what you're saying. Also, is the PPM proc % recalculated when your weapon speed changes? Or will casting SR when you have 2.6 weapon speed lock in that %, even if you later - but during the duration of the buff - increase weapon speed, say, with flurry or bloodlust/heroism?
Back when haste was still new and exciting I spent some time testing proc uptimes with lots of haste+flurry/no haste+flurry/no haste no flurry, and found that it didn't seem to make any difference. I was using a single mongoose enchant and over a bunch of 30min runs with many combinations of gear I always had consistent uptime around 50%. I can't say with certainty that it works this way but it sure seems to. As to how often the chance to proc is adjusted I can't say, it would seem logical to do it for every swing but maybe that would be too expensive to calculate, someone would need to do a lot of testing to know for sure.
#7731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zoya
I have a question that i hope some of you might help me with.

I have two chestpieces and i cant figure out what to use.

I have the badge druid chestpiece Vestment of hibernation
I also have the mail chestpiece from Jan'alai Arrow-fall Chestguard

Do i pick haste over armor penetration? Or the other way around? With kings i can imagine the druid chestpiece is better. Also i realise that haste might have a negative influance on my windfury.
#7732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Zoya View Post
I have a question that i hope some of you might help me with.

I have two chestpieces and i cant figure out what to use.

I have the badge druid chestpiece Vestment of hibernation
I also have the mail chestpiece from Jan'alai Arrow-fall Chestguard

Do i pick haste over armor penetration? Or the other way around? With kings i can imagine the druid chestpiece is better. Also i realise that haste might have a negative influance on my windfury.
Read the OP. Use Yo's sim. These questions really shouldn't be coming up in the thread if you've even read the first post.
#7733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Clarifying meaning of PPMs

Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.
I was going to say that this was wrong, but then I recalled that I learned what I "know" from the WoW Forums, which are not the most reliable source of info. Nevertheless, here's what I think is true. It would be great if someone could issue an authoritative statement on this. (There's nothing in the OP I can see, certainly not in sec 3.1.3 = haste.)

PPM %ages DO NOT CHANGE when a weapon is hasted. That means that if you have a 1PPM weapon enchant, and you are hasted 30% by flurry and another 3.33% by passive haste, your will attack with your weapon 33% more often AND YOU WILL PROC 33% MORE OFTEN, or 1.33PPM.

There is another misconception a few posts down from the one I quoted, and I'm considerably more confident saying it's wrong. Discontinuous fights DO NOT increase the value of PPMs because they don't make procs more likely. If you hit a mob at time=1 sec with your 1PPM weapon, and then hit it again at time=61 seconds, you don't get a guaranteed proc. Each hit is totally random. (Except of course for the hidden CD, which makes the probability of procing 0 until it expires.)
#7734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
I was going to say that this was wrong, but then I recalled that I learned what I "know" from the WoW Forums, which are not the most reliable source of info. Nevertheless, here's what I think is true. It would be great if someone could issue an authoritative statement on this. (There's nothing in the OP I can see, certainly not in sec 3.1.3 = haste.)

PPM %ages DO NOT CHANGE when a weapon is hasted. That means that if you have a 1PPM weapon enchant, and you are hasted 30% by flurry and another 3.33% by passive haste, your will attack with your weapon 33% more often AND YOU WILL PROC 33% MORE OFTEN, or 1.33PPM.

There is another misconception a few posts down from the one I quoted, and I'm considerably more confident saying it's wrong. Discontinuous fights DO NOT increase the value of PPMs because they don't make procs more likely. If you hit a mob at time=1 sec with your 1PPM weapon, and then hit it again at time=61 seconds, you don't get a guaranteed proc. Each hit is totally random. (Except of course for the hidden CD, which makes the probability of procing 0 until it expires.)
I haven't followed this for a while, but I think the consensus from a few months ago in a thread here on EJ.com is that old world enchants act the way you describe (crusader is a good example) - they'll proc more with flurry. On the other hand, new world enchants (mongoose) seems to be based on current weapon speed, as opposed to item-listed weapon speed, so flurry wouldn't change mongoose's rate at all.

Man, I can't find that thread, so I can't be sure if my memory is right.
#7735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t15553-p...chanics_haste/
#7736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I have assurances from Boethius that the Theorycraft Think Tank (the wiki project here) will be opening within 1-2 weeks, at which point we'll shut down this thread and there can just be an "Enhancement Shaman (I don't know how to play) Help Me Please" thread for the random questions. Over in the wiki I have moderation rights on the article so I'll be able to delete anything not directly related to adding new info to the article itself.

ie, the article's discussion is to revolve around the article only not discussions in general.

Heck maybe someone can start the "I don't know how to play an Enhance Shaman" thread now just to get the repetitive questions out of this one.
#7737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks much Pitbuller, that's the thread I was thinking of.
#7738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Heck maybe someone can start the "I don't know how to play an Enhance Shaman" thread now just to get the repetitive questions out of this one.
I thought about that, but really, how many times is the answer anything other than "use Yo's simulator"?

Maybe we should just make an enh help thread that's just a how-to for Yo's simulator. As silly as that sounds to me, it's abundantly clear that a lot of people don't know how.
#7739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ragga
Mind me asking Malan, why can't this thread just be moderated? Sure there is a lot of helpful information here, but then again the same questions being asked over and over are tiring, but is it really a reason to create a new place for discussion?

About the "use Yo's simulator" thread, people will always be lazy, sadly, its easier to make a stupid post then actually try figuring something out on your own.
#7740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
I thought about that, but really, how many times is the answer anything other than "use Yo's simulator"?

Maybe we should just make an enh help thread that's just a how-to for Yo's simulator. As silly as that sounds to me, it's abundantly clear that a lot of people don't know how.
That's a very good point, but I think instead of including it as a separate thread, it should be part of the OP in the more general "How do I play an enh shaman" thread. It's a pretty straightforward tool, and there's a lot of FAQ-type information included below it if I remember correctly, but a couple quick paragraphs on how to use it or some bullets on what to include and how might help. Similarly, include links to sites like Loot Rank or MaxDPS (what do people even use these days? I just use the sim and personal judgment).

I know a lot of this is already in the OP here, but it requires people to dig through the quite daunting post. While a lot of us love it and probably could recite most of it from memory, more casual players who are just looking for gear advice end up turning their brains off by the time they get to the 3-dimensional plot in section 1.1.1. I don't blame them--that's not what they're here for. If we don't want to deal with those kinds of questions in this thread, having the How-To thread will help a lot, I think.

(Also, Malan, I have to say that splitting off the theory into another thread/area is possibly the best news I've heard in weeks. Cheers!)
#7741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by ragga View Post
Mind me asking Malan, why can't this thread just be moderated? Sure there is a lot of helpful information here, but then again the same questions being asked over and over are tiring, but is it really a reason to create a new place for discussion?
The wiki has a special user group associated with it and has a special purpose - its not there to generate discussion, its there to serve as a resource for confirmed mechanics. I'm in the Editor user group there so I have pruning rights. The idea is that discussion about the article itself takes place in the wiki thread - "hey this is wrong" or "add a correction here" but that general discussion "I don't understand why I don't need +Hit!!!!!" takes place in the normal area of the forums.

[e] Shit. Someone a few days ago had posted something about "hey add this to the stormstrike section" I think it was rob, but I totally lost track of what I was supposed to add.
#7742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
What is your mean DPS on Gorefiend?

I've obtained perhaps 1/2 of my T6 set, and I'm having trouble pushing my DPS (minus searing totem) over 1400.

I noticed last time, I had a rather large % of white damage (51%). I don't know many shaman to push white damage so high, and I am not sure it's good.

Kwatee - WWS

Malan commented on his dropping crit while gearing T6, and I have dropped quite a bit and picked up a great deal of haste, but i never expected my white DPS to be > 50%.

Either way, a crit percentage < 40% after buffs for me is dismal, and my miss rate seems high as well.

I'm hoping to grab Illidan's helm, and S3 weapons soon. the sim shows them being massive upgrades, but I hate being stuck at this 1400 shelf.

If anyone does see something that I'm missing (other than the fact my helm is garbage, I had to socked my vengeful for PvP), shout. I'm aware I'm losing a bit of my shock DPS from my twisting, but i would think the agi would fill in that gap.

P.S. If your spring break starts today, have a good one!
#7743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[e] Shit. Someone a few days ago had posted something about "hey add this to the stormstrike section" I think it was rob, but I totally lost track of what I was supposed to add.
I believe this is what you're looking for:
http://elitistjerks.com/662066-post7620.html
#7744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Perhaps instead of saying SS can proc WF, it would be best to explain that yellow attacks can proc WF, but yellow attacks cannot proc WF totem.
#7745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
That's not true either since Heroic Strike is a yellow attack but can proc WF because its a next-attack special. If people think we're talking about Windfury Totem in this thread/article, they're dumb.
#7746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I was unaware that heroic strike could proc WF totem actually.

Egg on my face there.

Either way, to not know that stormstrike can proc WF probably equally ignorant.

And we have been known to talk about WF totem in this thread in response to rogues/warriors considering their theorycraft threads include very little information about how it functions.

It has been modified at least once.
#7747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
However, you have to know the bosses abilities. For instance, don't use Teron Gorefiend, Rage Winterchill and other bosses that turn around to target people for secondary spell abilities. Or if you do, remind yourself that the dodge/parry rates on those bosses will likely be higher.
1) Stats for an entire raid are no good, because it will include attacks on mobs that are not level 73. You can only look at bosses, and even still bosses that don't summon "lesser" mobs.

2) Turning mobs shouldn't have any effect on the dodge rate -- Parry doesn't push dodge off the attack table, it pushes hit off the attack table. Casting, on the other hand, will affect dodge percentages as casting mobs don't dodge while casting.

In conclusion, I need a good, long, tank n' spank fight. I have some stats from Nalorakk on Tuesday, I just need to up them to WWS.

Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.
This may be -- but I'm guessing, and it should be easy to test, that the PPM calculations don't take stormstrike or windfury into consideration, which means that with a relatively static number chances from WF and SS hits, a higher chance, and therefore a lower speed, would be preferred.

However, to your point: if PPM mechanics ARE based on current weapon speed (which, again, should be easy to test), then this means you'll return more mana from SR if you proc it when you aren't affected by a haste proc, e.g. Bloodlust, Berzerking, etc.

You can't trust simulations to answer these questions, so if anybody has any in-game data to confirm the mechanic I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Imabug View Post
I do have a question for my Shaman's mainhand: Currently, I've been using Fool's Bane in my mainhand on my Shaman, but I do have a Bladefist sitting in my bags currently. Normally, I'd run a sim of both, but there's a problem - How would I evaluate the Bladefist's Haste buff?
I always considered the Bladefist to be a poor man's Drakefist Hammer, so just select the "Dragonstrike" main hand option. The difference is maybe 32 haste rating when the proc goes off, which shouldn't be more than 1 dps.

It's almost guaranteed you'll do more dps with the Bladefist main handed and the Fool's Bane off.
#7748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
1) Stats for an entire raid are no good, because it will include attacks on mobs that are not level 73. You can only look at bosses, and even still bosses that don't summon "lesser" mobs.

2) Turning mobs shouldn't have any effect on the dodge rate -- Parry doesn't push dodge off the attack table, it pushes hit off the attack table. Casting, on the other hand, will affect dodge percentages as casting mobs don't dodge while casting.
Only sort of true Toots.
The WWS tool for boss fights only lists your attacks per enemy, so even if the boss summons lesser adds... i.e. Solarian, you can still use that parse if you're using the WWS information.
I listed an entire raid's worth of detail to show that the raw number of hits, dodges, parries are available from the tool. So some adventurous type could go through their raid's backlog of boss fights and add up all the non-expertise wearer's values of hits/dodges/parries. This exercise is more than I have time for today, especially since our guild didn't pay our WWS bill and now we've got just one left online.

Your point numbered 2 is good. I totally forgot to mention those details.

Several people agree with TootsHepcat that bosses, while casting, can not dodge. Striking my contrary remarks.
Also, bosses aren't players. I'm fairly certain that even while they're casting they can dodge/parry/other mittigation. I don't have data that proves or disproves this. Sorry. I'm not 100% confident in this, so to the community take this last statement with a grain of salt.


Final note: Bosses that turn, get a bunch of parries from melee, which then allow the boss to gib your tank, what to do?
A rogue in our guild posited this little nugget of thought the other day. I forget if he mentioned reading it somewhere or not. Instead of tanking a boss in the following piss-poor standard stance: (M = melee, T=tank)
T-Boss-M - - - - - Ranged

In that scenario whenever the boss targets someone other than the tank, it necessarily turns towards melee and starts parry-gibbing tanks.

Stand like this.
M
__Boss - T (the underscores are just showing some space. I can use a preview button )



Ranged

If the post screwed over my textual spacing, basiscally the melee is to the side of the boss, still fighting it's back. The ranged off to the other side. The bulk of the time that the boss turns to target some non-tank, it's got at least a chance of not choosing a melee target and therefore will keep it's back to the melee. This should hopefully lower the amount of parries, and thus help your healer's out.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/07/08 at 3:19 PM. Reason: Others say that casting bosses can't dodge.
#7749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
However, to your point: if PPM mechanics ARE based on current weapon speed (which, again, should be easy to test), then this means you'll return more mana from SR if you proc it when you aren't affected by a haste proc, e.g. Bloodlust, Berzerking, etc.
Perhaps my understanding is still flawed, but I think this isn't true based on the information here and in the proc mechancis thread linked above. If the PPM is constant independent of haste, the actual chance to proc on each hit scales down as your haste increases, to keep the PPM constant, resulting in the same total number of procs from your autoattack over the duration of the buff. Instant specials like WF and Stormstrike will still be based off of the original, unhasted weapon speed in either case, but you still can't SS more than once per 10 seconds, or WF more than once per 3. The only effect that could change the mana gained (unless I'm missing something else) is that in a hasted state there might be a small but real increase in the number of Windfuries gained as a result of less time between the WF CD expiring and the next melee attack, favoring hasted state ever so slightly.

Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
If the post screwed over my textual spacing, basiscally the melee is to the side of the boss, still fighting it's back. The ranged off to the other side. The bulk of the time that the boss turns to target some non-tank, it's got at least a chance of not choosing a melee target and therefore will keep it's back to the melee. This should hopefully lower the amount of parries, and thus help your healer's out.
Your textual diagram was pretty clear. It's a cool idea, and I'm pretty sure it could work, but the one failing of the text diagram is that it assumes 90 degree angles. I think, based on seeing a number of Backstab parries on some fights and some reading I've done elsewhere (I can try to find the source, but I honestly don't remember off the top of my head, so it may be completely irrelevant) that the parry arc is actually slightly over 180 degrees. Ideally, I think you'd want essentially a lopsided triangle, with the tank at one point, the melee at the short stubby second point, and the ranged on the farther 3rd point.

Of course, that assumes that the boss some sort of frontal cone ability. If not, might as well do:

Ranged


T
Boss
M

If you're feeling particularly sassy, you could even spread the melee out in an arc behind it, so if he turns to a melee on one side, almost half the rest of the melee also can't be parried. Cool idea, for fights that allow you to mess with positioning like this!
#7750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Also, bosses aren't players. I'm fairly certain that even while they're casting they can dodge/parry/other mittigation. I don't have data that proves or disproves this. Sorry. I'm not 100% confident in this, so to the community take this last statement with a grain of salt.
I think it's been pretty conclusively shown that this isn't the case, fights like reliquary and council would be much more painful if casting mobs could dodge. If a rogue ever tries to tell you his kick was dodged you can be pretty sure he was just late in kicking .
#7851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Khlysti
It had been fixed to 30% (1000+ mana per proc) by the time M'uru was testable.
#7852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Hello!

I am currently using a twisting macro consisting of a castsequence:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=12 Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
I would like to improve this macro by having it use Drums of Battle and Haste Potions when they are up. Any people good with the macro interface able to assist?

Thanks,
Andu
#7853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Why don't you try the UI/Macro forum since that question doesn't have anything to do with Enhancement mechanics.
#7854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Why don't you try the UI/Macro forum since that question doesn't have anything to do with Enhancement mechanics.
Apologies, Malan. I figured a macro like that would be useful to everyone who religiously reads the thread (like me!)
#7855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
WF is normalized by constant proc rate, or would be if the 3 second cooldown did not exist. SS however is totally unnormalised as is WF procced by that SS.
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.

The normalization you're talking about -- when the additional damage of an attack is offset by some other factor, such as proc rate -- might better be called "scaling with faster weapons" just to separate the two concepts.

SS is unnormalized and it doesn't scale because it does weapon damage from each weapon and it has a cooldown -- even if SS didn't proc WF, there would be a slight benefit to slower weapons. (MaxDPS.com, whose equations don't account for the WF cooldown or its ability to proc from SS, still shows a slight benefit to slower weapons because of SS).

As an aside, I'd really like to find some way to state the average lag between windfuries as a function.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/12/08 at 12:30 PM.
#7856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
If you maximize DPS, you're chugging a Haste Potion every cooldown.

Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
It had been fixed to 30% (1000+ mana per proc) by the time M'uru was testable.
I forgot to add this was after the 30% fix, maybe it was me being unlucky or maybe not but I did not get full mana every time. In my opinion it's worth testing it a bit further before shrugging it off as bad luck.
#7857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
Takes up a Haste Potion opportunity, though.

Edit: Sorry, somebody got to it before me.
#7858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
So based on some of the testing people have done recently (within the past 6 pages), has it been concluded that using a haste potion or bloodlusting during shamanistic rage actually reduces our mana gained?
#7859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I forgot to add this was after the 30% fix, maybe it was me being unlucky or maybe not but I did not get full mana every time. In my opinion it's worth testing it a bit further before shrugging it off as bad luck.
I'd lean towards unlucky, as I haven't had any issues, but I'm still not terribly surprised. With a constant proc rate (assuming, of course, they have kept the same PPM), doubling the amount returned on each hit, and halving the duration, it's more likely to give abnormal total amounts of mana over the duration of the effect. It should still average out to be the same over all uses, but I'm expecting it to see both extremes occur more frequently (i.e., returning an inadequate amount of mana vs. filling it up way before the end of the effect--expect the same average return, but a higher standard deviation). Yay statistics.

Unfortunately I don't have time to confirm this week after work, though. If no one's addressed it by Saturday, I'll spend a few hours on live and test and compare logs.
#7860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
I'd lean towards unlucky, as I haven't had any issues, but I'm still not terribly surprised. With a constant proc rate (assuming, of course, they have kept the same PPM), doubling the amount returned on each hit, and halving the duration,.
My experiences on Brutallus (the only Sunwell fight I got to do as Enhance cause of attendance >_> ) was that I always had full mana with a few seconds to go on the buff. Mind you I wear full leather (ie a small mana pool) apart from my new peices of t6.

That being said, I certainly had more mana troubles than I do on live because you end up with 105 seconds to spend your mana rather than 90.

More annoyingly though is that I regularly tank the first killed mob on trash pulls if a tank is having afk on BT trash and this nerf will see me on the floor a fair bit more than currently.
#7861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3slant
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.
That's not exactly correct as the weapon's damage remains unchanged and weapons with a higher damage range (which are usually also slower) are still beneficial. Only the contribution from attack power is normalized. Thus weapon speed's effects on normalized instant attacks is minimized but not eliminated entirely.

Windfury doesn't need to be normalized as it's (supposedly) a set percentage of attacks. Stormstrike should be; they just missed it.
#7862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
That being said, I certainly had more mana troubles than I do on live because you end up with 105 seconds to spend your mana rather than 90.
That's was really hurting us with the change. Before, you was full of mana at point X and twisted/shocked while SR was still up until point y when it was running out. If you have enough ap to regen to full in 15s before, it was fine. But the additional regen is needed to substain your full shock/twisting cycle on eg. Teron. I can not substain that full cycle nowadays on teron without a mana pot (no judgement normally) or only while wearing int heavy mail items (~ 6.5k manapool raidbuffed regulary). I'm running out of mana ~ 20s to early and with the hit of 2.4 it will be 35s every 2 minutes?

Additionally it helped also a lot to survive eg. RoS and Illidan phase 2 (as mentioned some pages before).
#7863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3syrixx
I’m not good with math at all. This is purely theorycraft not tested in-game. Sure there are other rotations. Yes I am aware of lag and response time to the server. Yes I see that mistake there now that you have pointed it out, thank you. Please don’t hurt me.

Ability rotations:
*ability – wait seconds*
(A) Holding off on shocks to get SS every chance possible
Ss – 1.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Fs – 6.5 – Ss – 1.5 – Es 6 – Fs – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Es – 6.5
time – 40 seconds
Ss’s – 4
Fs’s – 3
Es’s – 3

(B) Pressing whatever is not on cooldown in SS/FS/ES order
Ss – 1.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 1.5 – SS – 4.5 – FS – 5.5 – SS – 1.5 - Es – 6 – Fs – 2.5 – SS – 5.5 – Es – 4.5
time – 51 seconds
Ss’s – 5
Fs’s – 4
Es’s – 4

COMPARE:
(A) in 2040 seconds (40*51)
Ss’s – 204
Fs’s – 153
Es’s – 153

(B) in 2040 seconds(51*40)
Ss’s – 200
Fs’s – 160
Es’s – 160

!RESULT:
(1) How much damage is 4 Ss’s?
(2) How much damage is 7 Fs’s + 7 Es’s?

The difference of 1 and 2 is how little difference the rotations make over a 34min period of time.

What’s the point Syrix?
Because I’ve heard enhance shaman arguing before over this exact nitpicky rotation difference.

G15 Keyboard Owners:
Put one of those rotations into a macro that repeats on toggle on/off. Now you can go afk to do a quest for your spouse…

afk 1min, a spider “as big as the cat!” has my wife cornered in the bathroom standing on the sink screaming obscenities…
#7864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Petition for SR to have a 1 min cooldown instead?
#7865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Petition for SR to have a 1 min cooldown instead?
"OMG Enhanc shammy OP IN PVP!!!11oneone"

I can just imagine that's the replies that will fly in our faces. Though it's a fair idea PVE wise.
#7866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.

The normalization you're talking about -- when the additional damage of an attack is offset by some other factor, such as proc rate -- might better be called "scaling with faster weapons" just to separate the two concepts.

SS is unnormalized and it doesn't scale because it does weapon damage from each weapon and it has a cooldown -- even if SS didn't proc WF, there would be a slight benefit to slower weapons. (MaxDPS.com, whose equations don't account for the WF cooldown or its ability to proc from SS, still shows a slight benefit to slower weapons because of SS).

As an aside, I'd really like to find some way to state the average lag between windfuries as a function.
Normalization is equalising all. There are several distinctive ways to do it:

1. Skills with cooldowns and ppm. Since it is obvious slower weapons would gain huge bonus over it, equalising here is done by giving the skills set speed for AP. Weapons damage still bring favor to slower ones, but difference is not that bad. Mortal Strike and SoC for example.

2. Flat rate procs. In this the proc rate itself normalizes the damage done. Faster weapons proc more often while slower ones proc for more damage. WF is perfect example of this.

3. Damage added per attack. In this case weapon speed affects amount of additional damage given. Because if it would not fast weapons would be clearly favored. Flametongue is perfect example of that.

Yes, in wow only first is mentioned because it had to be fixed in patch (and causing a lot of turmoil) as well as being most obvious.

Now concerning WF, as i said SS is what causes the emphasis to slower weapons even if 3 second cooldown did not exist. Same would apply to anything that can proc WF. So even if 3 sec cooldown would not exist slower weapons are better, but difference would be far less brutal than what it is at the moment.
#7867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by syrixx View Post
(A) Holding off on shocks to get SS every chance possible
(B) Pressing whatever is not on cooldown in SS/FS/ES order
What you're talking about is cycle prioritization, and there's a third option, which is to shock as often as possible and only use stormstrike when WF is off cooldown.

This rotation is harder to predict, but very simple to perform. First, get a copy of a windfury timer -- Enhancer has a good one. When your shocks and your stormstrike come off cooldown at the same time (which is the only time we really care about prioritizing them), if Windfury is off cooldown, you stormstrike. If windfury IS on cooldown, you shock...and don't strike until the cooldown is up.

You decrease your stormstrike damage, but it may be offset by also decreasing the lag between windfuries.
#7868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3callidas
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Normalization is equalising all. There are several distinctive ways to do it:

3. Damage added per attack. In this case weapon speed affects amount of additional damage given. Because if it would not fast weapons would be clearly favored. Flametongue is perfect example of that.

Yes, in wow only first is mentioned because it had to be fixed in patch (and causing a lot of turmoil) as well as being most obvious.
Seal of Righteousness is normalised (sorry: prevented from scaling) in the 3rd way, faster weapons hitting for less holy damage.
#7869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by callidas View Post
Seal of Righteousness is normalised (sorry: prevented from scaling) in the 3rd way, faster weapons hitting for less holy damage.
Umm, that is exactly what third one says. It is just question if you choose base of fastest weapon or slowest weapon :P If fastest weapon it deals more damage and if slowest then it will deal less damage as goes faster. I guess this is one of those glass half full/empty things

Good point about that 15 second increase, and i think we can add Gurtrogg Fel Rage to those encounters where SR is very useful :P
#7870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Yes but I'm distrustful of some of this, a bit. Its too easy for 'conventional wisdom' to become enfranchised especially here in this game where doing anything outside of the norm gets you lampooned. Cookie cutter specs or gtfo etcetc.

Concerning wf naturally meshing with weapons that have speeds complementary to an integer value of 3.0 (such as a 1.5speed axe) for pvp purposes, all of the stuff mentioned thus far is mostly a moot point at best.

I'm not even spec'd into flurry, for which I catch shit endlessly.. because your pvp target conveniently stands there til you get a crit, THEN stands around some more so that you can get a few hasted hits just so you get your money's worth from those talent points, right?

..right?

Haste is great and I'll get my piece of that pie as appropriate but its real value is surely pve, in environments where you can just stand behind a raid boss for 8min and drill away.

So assuming no haste and the usual stick-and-move pvp environment, would it be feasible to redress the age-old thing about weapon speed to see if its possible to make a different weapon 'fit' better? I got my offhand s1 axe also.. at the last second I came very close to getting the 1.5speed version just to see how things would go. But alas, I punked out and now DW the 2.6's with crusader on both. Once dual s3's are in hand, then itll be time for mongoose and all that good stuff.
#7871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
Yes but I'm distrustful of some of this, a bit. Its too easy for 'conventional wisdom' to become enfranchised especially here in this game where doing anything outside of the norm gets you lampooned. Cookie cutter specs or gtfo etcetc.

Concerning wf naturally meshing with weapons that have speeds complementary to an integer value of 3.0 (such as a 1.5speed axe) for pvp purposes, all of the stuff mentioned thus far is mostly a moot point at best.

I'm not even spec'd into flurry, for which I catch shit endlessly.. because your pvp target conveniently stands there til you get a crit, THEN stands around some more so that you can get a few hasted hits just so you get your money's worth from those talent points, right?

..right?

Haste is great and I'll get my piece of that pie as appropriate but its real value is surely pve, in environments where you can just stand behind a raid boss for 8min and drill away.

So assuming no haste and the usual stick-and-move pvp environment, would it be feasible to redress the age-old thing about weapon speed to see if its possible to make a different weapon 'fit' better? I got my offhand s1 axe also.. at the last second I came very close to getting the 1.5speed version just to see how things would go. But alas, I punked out and now DW the 2.6's with crusader on both. Once dual s3's are in hand, then itll be time for mongoose and all that good stuff.
Having participated in arenas myself as enhance, I'd disagree with most of what you just posted. I've only really done 5s, and I'm usually not alive very long once they figure out I'm enhance. Basically, you want to inflict as much damage as possible before dying, so large, slow weapons would be the best to burst immediately with SS. Usually you'll crit and gain flurry, so follow the SS with a frost shock and stay within range as long as you can to inflict the most damage.

My understanding of PvP DPS is "burst is king", so if that theory holds correct, wouldn't you want to do as much damage in a short amount of time as possible?
#7872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ?

Might want to head over there for discussions about enh PvP.
#7873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skyhoof
Can someone clarify the amount of expertise rating needed to become capped? Is it 90 or 103? And can we add the answer to 3.1.5 Expertise Rating? Prior to seeing the new gear in Patch 2.4, I never worried about being expertise capped before. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Killme888 View Post
Pretty sure they think it's 9% dodge vs 73 mobs, that's 36 expertise required to hit 0, but rogues have 10 expertise through talent, so 26.

26 * 3.94 = 102.44 aka 103.

So we just need to find out if it's 9% dodge or 5.6%. I can see why it could be 9% though, pre-BC miss rate vs 73 using 2H was also 5.6%, but it's been changed and now it's 9%.

Originally Posted by Othieus View Post
"Expertise against Bosses
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed."

Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well.

Originally Posted by rava View Post
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
#7874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Daler
The OP in Roguecraft 101 is claiming that the boss dodge rate is presumed to by 6.5% now...I'm still searching for the source data, and WWS is being unbelievably wonky for me today.

EDIT: After sifting through that thread some more, the 6.5% figure is apparently based on WWS parses showing average dodge rates on the boss between 6.3-6.6%. Once 2.4 releases, we should be able to get better data from the new abundance of expertise rating available to confirm/deny their conclusions. I guess for now we just go with the flow. /shrug

Last edited by Daler : 03/13/08 at 2:31 PM.
#7875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
2.4 Combat log changes

Will the changes to the combat logging in 2.4 allow parsers to include totem damage, or allow one to see how many main hand WF procs occured vs offhand procs? I was led to believe that the WF events have separate IDs associated with them, and that totems do as well, but a guildmate was telling me that although this is the case, parsers will not be able to differentiate this somehow.

I had been excited about the new combat log changes shedding better light on our mechanics and our group buffing in general, but it looks like this isn't the case. Anyone know definitively one way or the other?

Cheers
#7951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Don't bother. Someone brought this same nonsense up a few weeks back, reposted from one of the other official boards, and it was already shot down.
Ah. I just saw a bunch of gibberish in German and thought it was something ninja introduced. Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread before. Hoax, shit addon or nazi overlords trying to overthrow enhance shamans?
#7952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Ah. I just saw a bunch of gibberish in German and thought it was something ninja introduced. Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread before. Hoax, shit addon or nazi overlords trying to overthrow enhance shamans?
Flawed testing. They got WF procs less than three seconds apart while wearing haste gear, and concluded that it was because the haste reduced the cooldown. Later testing showed that it was possible to get procs less than three seconds apart with zero haste (linked to by Disquette above), and showed that there was no correlation between haste rating and shortest gap between WFs. The gap between hits and the resulting WF proc is nowhere close to constant (glancing at some logs, I see gaps from .2 seconds to .9 seconds), so lag satisfactorily explains why this is possible.
#7953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.

(And i hope this is actually a legit question)
#7954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.

(And i hope this is actually a legit question)
The proc rate was adjusted a while back and seems to be much more accurate now.
#7955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Radditz
have a question about the simulator too regarding the input stats for hit% .. just input my armory/ingame hit: 9.45% (149) or WITH talents: 18.45% ? because my hitchance is about 91% with talents against lvl73 but the sim suggests a fairly high 1.28 (and even higher before some items with 1.45) value for hitrating and i thought reaching the hitcap is almost useless for us.

for example take my [Worgen Claw Necklace] against my [Mithril Chain of Heroism]. with the sims suggested values the Worgen Claw Necklace is better then the Mithril Chain of Heroism but for my understanding Mithril Chain of Heroism gives me more (especially with kings)

i know my gear is ... not so good im just collecting for a few weaks because i was resto before... the trinkets and rings are the best i can get in this time.. . maybe someone can overlook my char and give me a quick estimation if i had made some big errors in itemization/gems/enchants.
thank you very much

P.S. hope you understand me..english is not my primary lang
#7956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thorrgal
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.
I have Exactly the same concern. I know the procc was fixed a while back, and I also remember when Dragonstrike was considered the best MH. Then this was changed and Dragosntrike was second option in MH slot after RT or Syphon..I didnt pay a lot of attention back then cause I thought I'll never reach Ilidan hehe. Anyway, now that I have and that I am first in line for the next Rising Tide and Syphon to drop, I did some calculations even if I thought a pair of Syphones or RT+Syphons would be the best as the OP say.

The results of the simulator were quite disturbing though, because Dragonstrike+ RT or Dragonstrike+ Syphon consistently performs better than RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT....even more so, Dragosntrike + Merciless Gladiator Pummeler is almost the same as RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT..

So taking into account Rhaegans post a page back comparing Dragonstrike with the sunwell fists that also showed Dragosntrike performing oustandingly, are we missing something here??

Is Dragosntrike really better than (or as good as) Rising Tide or Syphon for the MH?

or

Is the Simulator somehow giving wrong results?

or

am I missing something here? :P

Also, are RT and Syphon really the same or is Syphon better? (providing the perform the same without taking into account the Syphon's procc)

PS: Actual Data from the Sims for my base stats. ( AP:1502, Hit: 22.13, Crit:32.61, Ex:2, Haste:0, AP:192, STR:271, AGI:277)
[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]----------->1374 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Rising Tide] -------------------------------->1381 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]------------------>1376 DPS
[Rising Tide] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]-------------------->1373 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Rising Tide] ------------------->1375 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]----->1379 DPS

PSS: On a side note, how do you guys input the procc of the Syphon? I think most of the people just ignore it but playing with the search tool I found out someone saying ist the equivalent of 3000-4000 dmg per 5 min fight or 2350 dmg in a particular 3mins teron fight if DW syphons, so around 6 dps per syphon...That wouldnt change the fact that Dragosntrike is the best or just the same as the best (apart from S3) option for MH, will just make Syphon>>>RT (again contradicting OP)

Sorry for this long post mates, just wanted to know what is the best option before chosing one combo or the other, and maby helping the community by pointing what could be a discrepancy on the simulator, wich is a anyhow a wonderful wonderful tool (special thanks to YO!)

Last edited by Thorrgal : 03/19/08 at 12:14 PM.
#7957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Good to see that I'm not the only one with this result.

For those that have some time to run the test for the sake of consistency, here are my stats:
1620AP (1560AP + 60AP from use effect of Berserker's call)
27.45% Crit
18.64% Hit
2.35% Haste
Spell Hit: 3%
Spell Crit: 5%
Strength: 288
Agility: 346
#7958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Radditz View Post
have a question about the simulator too regarding the input stats for hit% .. just input my armory/ingame hit: 9.45% (149) or WITH talents: 18.45% ? because my hitchance is about 91% with talents against lvl73 but the sim suggests a fairly high 1.28 (and even higher before some items with 1.45) value for hitrating and i thought reaching the hitcap is almost useless for us.

for example take my [Worgen Claw Necklace] against my [Mithril Chain of Heroism]. with the sims suggested values the Worgen Claw Necklace is better then the Mithril Chain of Heroism but for my understanding Mithril Chain of Heroism gives me more (especially with kings)
Whenever I've generated EP values for myself at various gear levels, I've always found 1 hit rating to be worth more than 1 AP, so I wouldn't call 1.28 fairly high. Mine generally hovers between 1.3 and 1.5, not straying very much from the values listed as "generic" EP values in the OP. For me, the two necks are identical (I think the chain pulls ahead by 1 EP) with kings, with [Worgen Claw Necklace] pulling slightly ahead by 5-6 EP when I don't have kings. Your mileage may vary, depending on what the sim gives you for agility values.
#7959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I obviously haven't taken the time to redo the equations, but unless I'm missing something, I think that they need some attention.
Did you see my attempt to restate them?

There are a number of obvious problems with that the old equation -- for example, the effect of Flurry on weapon speed isn't calculated as Speed * (1-.3), it's calculated as Speed / (1 + .3). And the Flurry Uptime calculation doesn't take into account WF or SS mechanics at all, even though these may count for 60% of all crits.

The real key here is Average Speed, something which it should be easy to calculate in-game but is a bit harder to flatten because it feeds back to itself, and the number of windfuries per 10s (related to the average windfury lag, something which also should be easy to calculate in-game).
#7960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.
#7961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Did you see my attempt to restate them?

There are a number of obvious problems with that the old equation -- for example, the effect of Flurry on weapon speed isn't calculated as Speed * (1-.3), it's calculated as Speed / (1 + .3). And the Flurry Uptime calculation doesn't take into account WF or SS mechanics at all, even though these may count for 60% of all crits.

The real key here is Average Speed, something which it should be easy to calculate in-game but is a bit harder to flatten because it feeds back to itself, and the number of windfuries per 10s (related to the average windfury lag, something which also should be easy to calculate in-game).
The only problem I can see is that dodge rate and expertise aren't taken into account. As Disquette pointed out:
since yellow damage is on a 2-roll system, you should technically have a dodge component (and thus expertise as well) in the flurry calculations, because a dodge *can* push a would-have-been crit off the yellow damage attack table.
I'd imagine that takes effect on both the WF and SS contribution to flurry and UR uptime.
#7962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Thorrgal
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.

Yes well I might as well wait for the Wotlk and of course get better weapons...point being 2.4 is not out yet, things may or may not change, and I would like to know what to do now...

Anyway, how do you know the badge main hand is better if the simulator may or may not be giving accurate results? Yo himself stated 2 pages back that "with this settings they are almost identical"...

So we have the same question again, if Dragonstrike is similar to the badge main hand and badge main hand+ off hand are just below S3 arena, were does this put the Rising Tide, the Syphon etc on the equation?

It may perfectly be that Dragonstrike + Syphon or DW Syphon are better if not equivalent to the badges MH+OH, so we would save 150+ badges right there, or the DKP equivalent if you want to look it the other way around, and maintaining the Dragonstrike would save both badges and DKP's

Also, getting the Rising Tide would be the wrong choice for both the MH and the OH...

I do need some specific answers mostly because telling my CL that I am passing on an (supposed) upgrade because in "3-6 weeks they will be better stuff" just won't do it....Furthermore, he also reads this forums (hi crazy Scotsman!) and at this moment believes the OP statement of both Rising Tide and Syphon being better than the Dragonstrike, and any combination of those 2 being equivalent to DW Syphons...wich is not clear to be true at all seeing some of the simulation results for me and the other concerned posters

Thanks to all the people that took the time to read this again too long of a post

EDIT:Spelling
#7963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hornbreakerz
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?




Ps: Please don't post how much it give,s as I would like to calculate it myself.

Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
#7964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
The only problem I can see is that dodge rate and expertise aren't taken into account. As Disquette pointed out:


I'd imagine that takes effect on both the WF and SS contribution to flurry and UR uptime.
I wasn't aware that WF used a two roll system -- thought it was just SS, but I guess that makes sense.

There's also the issue that if the MH swing of an SS is dodged, the offhand is ALSO dodged.

DodgeChance= .065 (or whatever)
YellowHitChance= 1 - Min(DodgeChance - .0025 * Expertise, 0)
MHSSSwingsPer10= YellowHitChance
OHSSSwingsPer10= MHSSSwingsPer10 * YellowHitChance
SSSwingsPer10sec= YellowHitChance + YellowHitChance^2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 * (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)) * YellowHitChance
#7965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz View Post
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?
Kudos for wanting to do the math yourself. However, if you've used Yo's simulator, which all enh shaman should, you'd notice in the AEP section of the first tab an EP -> DPS value for 1 point of AP.

Since 1 point of AP is always 1 EP, you can use that relation to convert the EP values for the rest of the stats to expected DPS contributions per stat point.

For example, using the default values on Yo's sim (I just went to the sim, set hours to 1k, clicked calculate AEP and run) results in an AP -> EP -> DPS conversion of 1:1:0.2569. Since strength is always valued at 2.2 EP, 1 point of STR = 2.2*0.2569 = 0.56518 DPS.

Just make sure to use your current stats, raid buffs, etc., and you'll be good to go.
#7966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
automatica
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz View Post
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?




Ps: Please don't post how much it give,s as I would like to calculate it myself.

Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
Someone beat me to reply to this post. See post above.

Last edited by automatica : 03/19/08 at 2:06 PM. Reason: Someone beat me to it.
#7967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz View Post
Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
That's because it isn't yet possible to calculate. Our DPS is a feedback system, meaning that the results of one part of the equation feed another part of the equation which, in part, feeds back into the first. It should be possible to reduce this to an expression, but it will be a) terribly complex and b) will relies on two or three equations we haven't figured out yet.

If you use Yo's simulator -- which you should -- simulating for EP values also calculates the EP->DPS conversion factor. Values vary wildly from .2 to .3 DPS/EP or more. This variation is at least partly a factor of weapon speed -- slower weapons convert EP to DPS at a higher rate than faster ones.

Many of us use .25 as a back-of-the-envelope conversion factor, simply because 4 AP = 1 DPS is easy to calculate. A 40 EP upgrade? 10 more dps.
#7968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
For the guys with DS/Syphon/RT problems...

I guess you guys didn't understand the hole point of AEP system.

During all this thread we have been trying to get people away from boxed answers, thus directing then to the sim or the formulas, so they could find their specific answers to each specific case. People didn't give straight answers, basically because they would be "bad" answers, as each specific case is unique and totally dif from each other.

The AEPs at front page represents the whereabouts of each stage of gear you should be in, but by no means i ever saw any of the theorycrafters in here stating that you should stick with tha till death.

Those numbers and information means that with the normally acquired itens, with the normally used gems and with the normally used enchants, you should most of the time be around those numbers.

The statement of the weapons is as such. Most of the time you can follow that and you have a great chance of doing right. Though, we have the sim for the exact purpose of showing you what's the best thing for your case.

The sim will show what it looks like at the gear you have atm. For me, the exact same sim you are using shows me that 2x Syphons are a 14ish DPS upgrade from my current DS+Syphon. And the exact same sim shows me that using the 2 new badges weapons nets me a 27ish DPS upgrade.

Neither the sim, nor the theory as it stands for now at least, is broken. They just show what's best for you at the time you do the sim, with your current gear.
#7969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
For the guys with DS/Syphon/RT problems...

I guess you guys didn't understand the hole point of AEP system.
To clarify the discussion thus far... the question is not "zomg which is better i need to kno!!1!" The question is: "Is there something strange that we don't understand going on with the Dragonstrike proc?" It goes beyond EP (which, yes, I calculate for myself regularly), and is a question of in-game vs. simulated mechanics. If the Dragonstrike proc is known to cause issues when using an OH below 2.6 speed (like the new badge OH), then that can't be modeled with EP but is still an important piece of information when planning out one's next few upgrades.
#7970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
that's what i'm saying. The sim shows me that with my gear 2xSyphon is an upgrade over DS/Syphon and the 2 new badge weapons are upgrades on top of that.

I can't see your concern on the sim. It shows me that with my gear, they are upgrade and as you said it, with yours, they are not.

Sorry, english not being my first language might be making me miss what your point is. o.o
#7971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lethnon
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
For example, using the default values on Yo's sim (I just went to the sim, set hours to 1k, clicked calculate AEP and run) results in an AP -> EP -> DPS conversion of 1:1:0.2569. Since strength is always valued at 2.2 EP, 1 point of STR = 2.2*0.2569 = 0.56518 DPS.
ok. Let me make sure I get this right.

In essence, 1 EP = .2569 DPS.

So, using the T5 values from the first post:

1 AGI = 1.8*.2569 = .46242 DPS.

Meaning, a mongoose enchant should increase DPS by 55.4904 (approx. since the slight speed increase isn't included)
(120*.46242 = 55.4904).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, how would you calculate damage into dps? I mean both damage from an effect (such at +150FR from Deathfrost) and +X to weapon damage? I don't want to make the mistake of assuming DPS = DMG.
#7972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Lethnon View Post
ok. Let me make sure I get this right.

In essence, 1 EP = .2569 DPS.

So, using the T5 values from the first post:

1 AGI = 1.8*.2569 = .46242 DPS.

Meaning, a mongoose enchant should increase DPS by 55.4904 (approx. since the slight speed increase isn't included)
(120*.46242 = 55.4904).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, how would you calculate damage into dps? I mean both damage from an effect (such at +150FR from Deathfrost) and +X to weapon damage? I don't want to make the mistake of assuming DPS = DMG.
Kinda. For determining Mongoose's DPS contribution, it'd be easier to run Yo's sim with and without the enchant for 5-10k hours, multiple times for each setup, average them out, and then subtract the difference. You can't expect 120 agi to be up 100% of the time, so that conversion is too simplistic for a proc effect like Mongoose.

As for the latter two questions, it's fairly simple for the plain +X to weapon damage. Let's assume you toss on +2 weapon damage on one ring. For each weapon, that would translate to 2 damage/weapon speed = Y DPS.

For something like Deathfrost, we'd first need to know it's proc rate to calculate the expected DPS benefit. I don't know if something's been done on the PTR to work that out, and you'll probably have to wait for 2.4 to go live for people to start testing it thoroughly (not to mention it could change between now and then). But the basic methodology for something like that is 150 damage * expected number of procs/unit time. Then you can convert whatever that is into DPS.

E.g., let's assume it has a 1 PPM proc rate. So enchanted on 1 weapon, you're looking at 150 damage/60 secs, or 2.5 DPS. That's overly simplistic, ignores haste effects and what not, but that's the general idea.
#7973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Deadstar View Post
Correct. There'd be no good reason for not making a DestroyTotem macro for EVERY totem, then refreshing them as they're about to run out in a raid setting.



/run DestroyTotem (4)
/castsequence Windfury Totem(Rank 5), Grace of Air Totem(Rank 3)

Works fine.

God I hope this makes it to live.
Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?
#7974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nacht
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?
#7975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Thorrgal
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
The sim shows me that with my gear 2xSyphon is an upgrade over DS/Syphon and the 2 new badge weapons are upgrades on top of that.
Thanks for your input TK. I was, like Rhaegan, concerned on how the sim takes into account th DS procc. Anyway, just out of curiosity, for how much were those convos better? And also, do you input the Syphon procc in anyway into the sim, consider it gives around 6dps as I did, or just ignore it altoguether?

Thanks again
#7976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?
What do you mean this change is live?
As far as I know, I'll still be raiding 2.3 style tonight.

My tests of it, showed no mana returns on the PTR, but I only did one night of tests. It was a crappy night, whole thing was laggy, I don't have 100% confidence in my tests, so I didn't post the results here. I hope this change goes through, leather wearers will get a decent benefit from it. More important personally is that I'll benefit from it as resto. So I hope it goes through, but I disagree with claiming it as fact, until it is fact.

Edit: for those wondering about Syphon, sometimes when the results are so close that you beg others to tell you there's a definitive answer; use the age-old wisdom of WDF.
Whatever Drops First - solves the problems of all these weapons are so close, I don't know what the RNG holds for my fate. You know your raiding guild better than we do. If you win syphon this week, and 2.4 comes out on Tuesday, and you buy all new badge weapon, then by some miracle Mounting Vengeance drops.... we can't answer if your raid is best served by someone else taking the MV instead of you. We don't know what every melee dps in your guild is currently wielding. No one can know that the very next tuesday your guild will finish a warglaive set. In fact we don't know if your guild has some loot distribution that requires you to sacrifice a duck anytime you get a mainhand upgrade. If so, get some ducks, you know that new weapons are coming.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/19/08 at 6:28 PM.
#7977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Nacht View Post
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?
If I recall right, I too was worried that it wasn't returning any mana when I ran the DestroyTotem(4) command. But for some reason the combat log was registering a mana return for killing the totem. Sadly with the PTR down, it's virtually impossible to go back and double check this unless it works this way on the TTR.
#7978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kelvari
Misunderstanding

Everyone I come into contact with in my guild believes that my buffs are just icing on the cake, no more than AI, GotW, Fort, etc. and that i should be able to do as much damage as any pure dps class. I've tried explaining things and showing that I am a buff class and bring much more to a group than other buffs from other classes, and that when considering the dps i bring into the raid, you have to consider how much i increase the damage of those getting my buffs and that my straight dps isn't an accurate representation of all that I bring to the raid. I don't know what I can do to prove this beyond any objection, and question, any shred of doubt, and was hoping that you could clarify this, and validate it in such a way, so that I could post it and prove that my dps and buffs combined is at or better than a single person doing somewhat more pure dps than me.
#7979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Easiest solution is to plug your melee group into their spreadsheets and calculate their total dps with a copy of GenericRogue (so 4x rogue 1x warrior) and then do the same with you + 3 rogue + warrior. (all the spreadsheets have UR, WF and possibly Bloodlust under the buff section)

If that doesnt work, we'll give you the same advice we've given every "I raid with a bunch of retards because casual seems to be a synonym for retardism in some guilds"-post: get another guild.
One with people who have an idea of what they are doing.
#7980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
You're correct, but the whole equation looks pretty wonky to me. Flurry is way off.

Taking another stab:

AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Yeah, you need to know FlurryUptime to accurately compute FlurryUptime, just estimate for now.

AASwingsPer10sec=(10 * Num Wpns)/AvgWpnSpd
SSSwingsPer10sec= 2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 x (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag))
SwingsPer10sec = AASwingsPer10sec + SSSwingsPer10Sec + WFSwingsPer10sec
I don't know the equation for AvgWFLag. You can assume somewhere between 1 and 3 procs per 10)

ChanceToNotCritIn10s: (1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer10Sec
UR uptime = 1-ChanceToNotCritIn10s

TimeFor3AASwings= Min ((3 * AvgWeaponSpd / Num Weapons), 10)
SwingsPer3AASwings = (10/SwingsPer10s) * TimeFor3AASwings
ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp=(1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer3AASwings)
Flurry uptime= 1-ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp

Solid start on this, imo, though it still needs some work to be accurate. One example is the AvgWFLag, as you acknowledged. The other is expertise/dodge. Thanks Toots.
#7981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Last night someone approached me asking if it was true in 2.4 Drums of Battle no longer stack with Heroism/Bloodlust. I said that I wasn't sure, that I had done no additional testing.

According to this patch note:

General

* Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.
That may actually be true. Anyone that perhaps did some testing on this?
#7982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aximous
Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.
#7983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'll be damned, that's what I get for not having any wake up coffee. I'll just let it be there so no one comes in and asks the same (stupid) question. By the way, I went ahead and used the new macros posted a few pages back to totem twist and it was pretty sweet. I managed to keep up GoA for 7/9 seconds of Windfury, whilst shocking at least once per twist. The new global cooldown really makes twisting easier; which is weird, considering they explicitely said they didn't condone of it, yet they made it easier. Thank you PvP I guess, heh.
#7984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Just to be clear:

AvgWpnSpd = ((MH Spd + OH Spd)/NumWpns) / (1+(0.3*FlurryUptime)) / (1+(HasteRating/15.76)) / (1+(Other % haste increases)

Is that right? It looked like you were missing some parentheses originally. Just want to be sure I've got it right before trying to make sense of this all.

So for a simplified test case let's assume two 2.6 weapons, 0 haste rating, and ignore heroism, etc. Let AvgWpnSpd = X and FlurryUptime = Y.

X = (2.6) / (1 + (0.3 * Y))

Y = 1-((1-Crit Rate)^((10/(20/X + 2 + 2*(10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)))) * MIN((3X/2), 10)))

And upon trying to simplify further, I think my brain blew a fuse.
#7985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Aximous View Post
Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.
Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.
#7986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Converting that to latex and dropping the min (worring about that case doesn't seem useful), we get:
X = \frac{2.6}{1 + (0.3 * Y)}

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{\frac{30X}{2}}{\frac{20}{X} + 2 + 2*\frac{10s}{3s+AvgWFLag}}}\right)

Simplifying:
\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15X}{\frac{20+2X}{X}*\frac{20}{3+AvgWFLag}}}\right)

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+40X}}\right)

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}

Let U = Y - 1

\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3(U + 1)}}}

\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}}

\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}

\Large \left(400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}\right)\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\Large \frac{624+120U}{1.3 + .3U}\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{624+120(Y-1)}{1.3 + .3(Y-1)}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{504+120Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

I have no idea where to go from there, or even if it's going in a useful direction.
#7987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vistol
I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.
#7988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Daler
Originally Posted by Vistol View Post
I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.
You don't have to rotate to Fl/Fr. Just start off your normal rotation (Flame/Earth) and there should be enough time on your shock cooldown for an elem shaman to use both charges. Even with an elem subspec, the 5 sec CD is enough to squeeze in a CL and an LB (assuming no one else has that damn romulo vial...but that's a rant for another time).

At the absolute worst, macro a whisper to your elem shaman to let him know when SS is up.

And it's very much appreciated by your elem shaman.

@ Shalas: Many thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to do, but it's been about a decade since I studied math to any degree (god I'm getting old... ).

So now for the AvgWFLag....

Last edited by Daler : 03/20/08 at 3:01 PM. Reason: accuracy, grammer, etc.
#7989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Nacht View Post
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem.
Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?
#7990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nacht
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?
Yes. I did a rather extensive test. Never once saw mana return in the combat log. I monitored the in-game log, setting it to "self" and also to "everything" to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Also, I recorded the log and went into the text file. No record of mana return for the macro. There is always a record of mana return for Totemic Call. I even created the following macro to simulate the Totemic Call spell.

/run DestroyTotem(1)
/run DestroyTotem(2)
/run DestroyTotem(3)
/run DestroyTotem(4)
The macro destroyed all four totems without returning any mana. There is no record in the log that the totems are destroyed when the /run command is used. Additionally, it destroyed all 4 totems with no GCD. Totemic Call initiates a 1.5s (not 1.0s) GCD, returns mana, and is recorded in the log.

I still have the combat log file saved in my PTR folder for reference, but I'm at work right now.
#7991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.
This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:


bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236

(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)


Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.
#7992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:
bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236
(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)

Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.
To be honest, your top 3 numbers are essentially identical. So if you fully trust the simulator, just buy the offhand fist.

If you're health is low and you die a lot, then cross your fingers that rising tide drops and you are able to get it. (this is situational, the simulator can't tell whether you abilities leave you prone to dying a lot)

The simulator doesn't model the syphon proc, my personal numbers say it's worthy of 3 to 5 dps on its own.
So truly your upcoming highest damage weapon situation (if you are strictly relegated to the choices you simulated above) would be Syphon + badge fist in 2.4.

Unless you didn't modiy your stats to include the individual weapons personal stats, such as AP and additional crit rating.
#7993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I recently ran two sim that placed Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality combined with S3 offhand as a 5 and 10 DPS respectively increase over S3/S3.

Anyone else had this?

I assume it had to do with the offhand being slower, but I haven't tested it with the weapons reversed.
#7994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Nacht View Post
stuff
I'm pretty sure that I saw it put a [You] Totemic Recall [74] in my combat log when I did the run command. At first I thought that it wasn't but I kept looking and I'm sure it was returning mana. This was also one of the last builds of PTR before it went down. I could have just been seeing things or really high that night. Seems like I'm the only one who's saying its returning mana, so I could very well be wrong at this point.
#7995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Unaz
I understand that people wanted to know the value of various pre-2.4 weapons to determine what was an upgrade, but why are dozens of posts being wasted on people who either can't be bothered to run the sim for their own weapon's values, or even worse arguing about something like how Syphon's proc compares to Rising Tide when the season 3 weapons have been shown to out-perform all other weapons currently in the game for us?

Stop fretting about the non 2.4 weapons when you could be getting your season 3 weapons and worrying about your upgrades from there. The theorycraft in modelling weapons in general is great, and figuring out the next upgrades after the patch is great, but getting mired in specifics of inferior weapons when obtainable superior weapons are available just boggles the mind.

And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.
#7996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aximous
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.
Don't forget it says that only non-self buffs won't stack so bl or pi will stack with icy veins but not with each other.
#7997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.
I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.

Last edited by Skiace : 03/20/08 at 7:53 PM.
#7998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}
Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.
#7999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Starfox
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.
That turns

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)
which is wrong as you stated. Y \in [0,1] \Rightarrow Y-1 \in [-1,0], that would give some problems with that logarithm

just into

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (1-Y) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)
#8000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.
There are a lot of other options other than enhancement to pick up the weapons. I picked up the S1 elemental gear and ran with a 4dps team with 0 experience prior and hit 1850 the first week of S3. Granted, I had amazing teammates, but the spec is really easy to play(purge, purge, purge, heroism, lb, lb, lb, nsemcl, top group off, interrupt important things). I had a friend that hit it pretty early running paladin/shaman/warrior with minimal gear and I'd honestly think at this point in the season 1850 is very accessible if you have even a tiny bit of motivation.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Grung View Post
It seems most people test on the mobs in blasted lands, but i would think the spirits in Diremaul North would be much better. They don't hit back, and you can hit them in the back for 10+ hours while being afk. Are they special, or do people just use blasted land mobs because they are easy to get to ?
Kind of off-topic, but... Is there an easy way to get to these? DM is annoyingly buggy these days, and there's lots of groups that you have to kill in order to get there, going the normal way, some of which seem to be chain pulling more groups now. I just spent an hour or so trying to get there and died a few times to strange chain-aggro that shouldn't have happened, and my inner door key magically disappeared during one of the deaths, so I got annoyed and quit. I'm guessing you can't just sneak by Kromcrush, nor would I imagine he be easy even at 70. I'm probably making it a lot harder than it is, if these guys are actually a viable alternative to Blasted Lands mobs... I hope, anyway.

[e] Actually I tried again, and Kromcrush is easy with an earth elemental to play with the adds. Overall it's still a pain to get through solo, though.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 03/21/08 at 1:24 AM.
#8002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Does anybody have Executioner/Mongoose performing equivalently or better than double Mongoose right now? I was surprised to find that running double Mongoose with my current gear would result in a slight increase in dps (about 5 dps). This increase would be the same regardless of weapons (I was testing the dps increase of different weapon upgrades at the time).
#8003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Draenorm
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.

Last edited by Draenorm : 03/21/08 at 7:27 AM.
#8004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Oteb
Yo would it be possible to to model in resilence in your simulator? I know i can aritifically lower my crit rating but it does not factor in lowered damage on critical strikes. I plan to gear up for arenas with highest possible damage and I am not entirly sure if 2.11 eap on crit rating is actually better than 2 on str that i see in model.
#8005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.

I don't always wait, no. I do tend to wait if I have a lot of GCD incoming at the same time. On Teron I usually don't bother though, I just spam those buttons :P.

And Executioner/Mongoose comes out about 10 dps better for me, too.
#8006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Yo would it be possible to to model in resilence in your simulator? I know i can aritifically lower my crit rating but it does not factor in lowered damage on critical strikes. I plan to gear up for arenas with highest possible damage and I am not entirly sure if 2.11 eap on crit rating is actually better than 2 on str that i see in model.
This is a very Good Question, and there are others related to it, such as armor, that are equally important.

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks (I am preparing to gear up for a run on the arena), and I've come to the conclusion that EP just doesn't cut it for PvP. Personal survivability stats come into play as well, in a way they don't in PvE. I don't know what the answer is -- but in either case, it belongs in the PvP forums.
#8007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.
With mods making this extremely easy, and with Yo!'s sim showing a dps increase being better with waiting all the way up to 3 seconds, why wouldn't you do this naturally? The only reason I would consider not waiting is if I had global cooldown bunching about to happen, which mods also show you.
#8008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
One thing I've wondered if people have considered is that having an elemental shaman in your raid makes stormstriking on cooldown a little more worthwhile, since more of his lightning bolts will be affected by the debuff. How would we calculate this?
#8009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Windfury can proc from either autoattacks or stormstrike.

I have a pair of 2.6s weapons, whose average swing time is around 1.98 (after flurry, 2x mongoose, passive haste & Dragonstrike are accounted for).

These weapons swing about 10 times per 10s. Stormstrike swings 2 times per 10s. That means that, in the abstract, Stormstrike accounts for at least 1/6 of my chances to proc Windfury.

However, stormstrike can't miss. Autoattack swings can. I have about 17% to hit, giving my swings an 11% miss chance. This means that I actually have an average of around 8.9 swings per 10s. SS really accounts for around 18% of my WF proc chances.

But all this depends on using SS when Windfury is not on cooldown. You actually don't miss a lot of damage by holding back your stormstrikes, but you potentially gain a lot by shortening the windfury lag.

Shocks and strike should come off cooldown at the same time once every 16s or so. If they come off cooldown and WF is still in cooldown, I shock. If they come off cooldown and WF is NOT in cooldown, I strike. Decision is easy, and I put my WF cooldown counter (Enhancer -- thanks for this wicked tool) just on top of my SS and shock cycle keys on the hotbar so I always have the information I need to make it.
#8010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
One thing I've wondered if people have considered is that having an elemental shaman in your raid makes stormstriking on cooldown a little more worthwhile, since more of his lightning bolts will be affected by the debuff. How would we calculate this?
It is my guess that it would be very, very difficult to modify Stormstrike usage by Boomkin/Elemental if there's any rogues. My gut feeling is that it would end up averaging to 'not matter all that much', but it depends on how many SS's you delay, and by how long. Unless the numbers add up to an extra 2 or 3 full Stormstrikes, it probably doesn't matter much at all. My assumption is that the Elemental/Boomkin will get 1/2 of the Stormstrike charges, per SS, on average.

It's entirely possible that I'm 100% wrong.
#8011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
BTW, the newest version of dqd now supports a /dqd arena flag (thanks Rob!) which changes stormstrike to 9 seconds from the normal 10. I don't have it auto-check for 4 piece gladiator, but you can set it yourself. It also is now translated into french (thanks Fluweel!), and it supports windfury events both as they are now, and as they will be in 2.4 and onwards (Huge thanks to Hedin!).

Enhancer, of course, does a whole lot more than dqd does, but if you want the minimal set of bars, I plan on keeping it updated for stuff like this. My main project going forward will involve playing with Ace3, my rogue mod, and a new graphical affect (I think it's new) which should look pretty cool if I can make it work.
#8012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
It is my guess that it would be very, very difficult to modify Stormstrike usage by Boomkin/Elemental if there's any rogues. My gut feeling is that it would end up averaging to 'not matter all that much', but it depends on how many SS's you delay, and by how long. Unless the numbers add up to an extra 2 or 3 full Stormstrikes, it probably doesn't matter much at all. My assumption is that the Elemental/Boomkin will get 1/2 of the Stormstrike charges, per SS, on average.

It's entirely possible that I'm 100% wrong.
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
#8013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.
I didn't used to, but a few months ago I switched to waiting for the cooldown before SS'ing, and the increase in my DPS was very noticeable. Was like black and white. I very much encourage everyone to do this.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
#8015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
Good call, my bad.
#8016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
That's all well and good, but the uptime isn't nearly as important as what is eating the SS charges. In fact, given that it's a two charge debuff with refreshes coming at best every 10 seconds, I'd say there's really no point at all in calculating the SS debuff uptime. You generally only care about debuff uptime when it's a persistent useful debuff (Imp Scorch, CoE, Misery, etc., etc.). If those fall off, it's a problem. If SS falls off, it almost definitely means those charges were used.

Ideally, it's an elem shaman since boomkin are generally sticking to arcane spells against bosses. If SS and FS are paired together, then even shocking on cooldown shouldn't eat a SS charge before the elem shaman can take advantage of it.
#8017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
Just thought I would throw this out there, if you have BM hunters, they are most likely using Ravagers or Wind Serpents. The Wind Serpent special attack will eat your Stormstrike. As it's been said, its usually an Elemental Shaman, or in my case, Wind Serpents and Elemental Shaman (when we actually run with one) that steal my Stormstrike debuff most of the time.

And I thought I read something here on EJ that said that the initial application of a Deadly Poison stack, being the first one applied, will actually eat a Stormstrike charge, but the additional applications and DoT ticks do not. I will try to find out where it is and post a link. If it's wrong, ignore this.
#8018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
And I thought I read something here on EJ that said that the initial application of a Deadly Poison stack, being the first one applied, will actually eat a Stormstrike charge
It does not. If it was posted it was misinformation.
#8019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
That's all well and good, but the uptime isn't nearly as important as what is eating the SS charges. In fact, given that it's a two charge debuff with refreshes coming at best every 10 seconds, I'd say there's really no point at all in calculating the SS debuff uptime.
Then take note of one of the things I said toward the end of the post:

Originally Posted by Xoya
Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.
In my guild, if we have no elemental shaman present in the raid, it's typical for me to see stormstrike at 2 stacks until I earth shock, then 1 stack till I refresh it.
#8020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Solid start on this, imo, though it still needs some work to be accurate. One example is the AvgWFLag, as you acknowledged. The other is expertise/dodge. Thanks Toots.

Let's think a bit (since I'm a bit out of the enh stuff for awhile) about the flurry problem:
- basically we know, dodged/missed swings do not take up a load, while glancing does
- so we have several types of swings which can occure during flurry:
- - glancing white swing (can be skipped due to the attack table)
- - normal swing (non - crit)
- - crit swing
- - normal windfury (non - crit)
- - crit windfury
- - normal stormstrike (non - crit)
- - crit stormstrike

so let's sum up, (1 - dodge) is called dodge for simplicity here, I assume yellow hit cap

white swings: (1 - crit)^3 is the probability that we don't crit in 3 swings

Now for the following let's assume an average weapon speed of 2.6

So the next question simply is:
How much time do these 3 normal white swings take?
- 3 * 1.3s = 3.9s, we attack on average every 1.3 seconds, call it aatimefor3 for now.
But we're talking fully flurried, so it is 1. ((2.0/2)*3)

We can exactly have ONE windfury proc in these 3.9s, it does not matter which swing it procs, just if it does (and does crit) or does not.

So we get an additional: 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^3) swings from wf, basically the probability we proc wf in those 3 swings and we actually don't miss those swings.

And finally we get a certain amount of stormstrike swings in 3.9s, since we get 2*dodge in 10s:
2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10), we actually do have to add the stormstrike swings to the possible wf proccing swings too.

So at the end we have the following equation for flurry uptime:

flurry := 1 - (1- crit)^(3+ 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(3+2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10))) + 2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10));

Addendum:
One thing i forgot, if it actually procs windfury, the next round of flurried swings probably has no 3 swings to proc wf.
We need to actually include this, this gets complicated though:
For simplicity we could assume, that really only aatimefor3/3 swings can proc windfury, meaning instead of 3 swings we actually only have 1.0 swings, but that does not really solve the inclusion of stormstrike.
Worstcase scenario, our 3 swings don't proc wf, but stormstrike procs wf, which then crits. We only then have a 0.0 seconds window for wf to proc (3.0s - 3.0 cooldown).
I guess we should simplify that to: (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(3.0/3)

So the simplified version (with corrected wf cooldown) looks like:
flurry := 1 - (1- crit)^(3+ 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(aatimefor3/3)) + 2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10));

Plotted that looks like:

Last edited by Tornhoof : 03/23/08 at 5:18 AM.
#8021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks for the detailed write up! I'm off to Pennsylvania atm, but will read it more carefully later.
#8022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tornhoof
Given the rewritten flurry equations + a few other fixes here and there for (close to optimal 2.4 gear) my current equivalency values are:
CR: 1.854 EP
HR: 1.831 EP
HasteR: 1.810 EP
Expertise: 3.156 EP
ArmorPen: 0.321 EP

This is fairly similar to the calculated values from Yo's sim. Keep in mind that especially CritRating,HitRating and HasteRating are very close together, so these exact values are correct for that gear only.

The gear for the above values is: Pastey.net - paste bin

I've added RC3 of my weo2 program with the changes described above.
#8023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
In my guild, if we have no elemental shaman present in the raid, it's typical for me to see stormstrike at 2 stacks until I earth shock, then 1 stack till I refresh it.
Well, the comparison would be rather simple.

Run two sims with you waiting to SS and you not waiting to SS. Note the DPS difference.

Take your elem shaman's avg. LB strike (accounting for hit/crit/raid buffs and debuffs/etc.) and multiply it by 1.2, subtract the original expected LB strike value, and multiply that difference by the # of stormstrike debuffs lost by waiting to SS outside of cooldown. Then divide that total by the length of the fight and compare with your expected personal DPS gained by waiting to SS outside of WF cooldown.

Whichever is the greater contribution to raid DPS should be the determining factor.

Shouldn't take you more than 5 minutes.
#8024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
An interesting twist that would affect calculations *very slightly*, could happen if windfury works for us in a similar way that it works for classes who get it via totems. If you check the roguecraft 101 forums, you can see that windfury actually acts as a temporary buff that increases attack power (for ALL attacks) for a teeny bit of time.

http://elitistjerks.com/683746-post2062.html
#8025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
An interesting twist that would affect calculations *very slightly*, could happen if windfury works for us in a similar way that it works for classes who get it via totems. If you check the roguecraft 101 forums, you can see that windfury actually acts as a temporary buff that increases attack power (for ALL attacks) for a teeny bit of time.

http://elitistjerks.com/683746-post2062.html
From memory, this is how Windfury Weapon used to work when it was just an additional two white hits. You could open your stats page and see the AP value jump up when WF procced. I think it's pretty unlikely it still does since there are so many yellow attacks with "does weapon damage +x" (even though ours is the only one with +AP).
#8151SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Shegokigo
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
My rogues that have are saying that the info they have shows 60% proc rate or around a 2 PPM. They didn't say where they got that info though, but if that's legit than the shard is definitely better than the DST.
Well that wasn't my original question, I was simply asking how to consider the "Shard of Contempt" in Yo's Simulator since he doesn't have a "choice" for it in the trinket section.
#8152SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
That's why we need to know the PPM, so we can calculate the average of attack power you'd have from the proc over a minute. For the expertise, you'll just have to add that to the paperdoll stats, like all other trinkets.
#8153SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Totalitar
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
I want to try this on our brutallus trys, what rotation were you using? ss, fs, wf/goa, es. rinse repeat?
WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES

I'm not 100% sure if this is good in the long run because I get in an extra shock but WF totem is only down 90% of the time for the rogues.
#8154SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES. You'll have to make decisions on the fly what to delay from time to time, but that's what makes twisting fun and challenging.
a) In case all both SS & Twist come up, I reason: Is WF on CD? Yes? Twist. Is WF not on CD? SS. Then twist.
b) Twist + Shock. Twist. Always.
c) All 3? Do a) followed by a shock.

Or sometimes I just skip one cycle of a Twist and leave WF up for 5s.
#8155SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Before 2.4, using DisqoDice, it was very, VERY easy for me to spot ~3-4 seconds earlier if they would come together. Then, I just twisted a bit earlier so that when the TCD(totem cd) ends, I'd have a spell ready with no lost time (or lost time down to a minimum). Don't know if any of you ever thought of doing that, but before that, as I had NO mana issues, it did work for me. Still yet to see how things go now.
#8156SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by mjgunn View Post
Noob question that I'm sure has been asked many times before (but searching for syphon & EP doesn't work, Syphon alone comes up with a a loooooooot of hits, etc), how do you figure out the EP of the Syphon? Going strictly by the DPS and the AP, the two stats that EP assigns value to, its EP is relatively low, but that's without figuring in the proc which I'm assuming is what makes it so good. Would just like to know exactly what the EP value of the weapon is and how it was figured. Thanks!
The proc sucks pretty hard. Our shaman DWs syphons, and the proc makes ~0.7% of his total damage. Usually bit less, sometimes a bit more. Try estimating it maybe as 10 crit rating per syphon or so, DWing them makes it 20 crit, a bit less than 1%, should be in line with a 0.7% total damage increase.

What makes them so good is that they are 2.8s speed weapons.
#8157SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xamanes
season 3 and syphon

I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.

say you have dual wield season 3 weapons and a syphon drops, would it be a good idea to go for syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3? or just stick with the season 3 weapon?

also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency ( i know its bad but i didn't want to get something nice on it ) OH. and my guild is 3 bosses into hyjal and starting BT tomorrow. and i have roughly 1700 rating in my arena teams climbing slowly. and have a monopoly on the dkp over the competition for Raid gear.

so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
#8158SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:

"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.

Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .

The choice is yours , I hope I helped.

And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.
#8159SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xamanes
Originally Posted by Piestein View Post
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:

"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.

Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .

The choice is yours , I hope I helped.

And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.

thats not quite what i meant.... but thank you for helping sort of.
#8160SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
philomon
I'd like to make a point of clarity for the main post, regarding the shock rotation for enhancement. Flame shock spam is NOT ideal.

Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.

It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:

((377 + (.21 * 750) + (420 + (.4 * 750)) / 2) / 6) * 1.36 =
(535 + 360) / 6 * 1.36 = 202.9 dps

202.9 dps is less than what earth shock offers over 6 seconds, especially since one must wait a fraction of a second for the 2nd flame shock tick after the next shock is ready. Using slant's numbers, the result dps is identical, oddly enough.

The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit

Last edited by philomon : 03/29/08 at 10:02 PM.
#8161SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zoya
Originally Posted by Genzou View Post
There are some claims that UR generates aggro again. (no raid till sunday, so haven't checked my own aggro yet). hopefully unintended if it's the case.
I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs.
#8162SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
"I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs."

Same thing in heroic magister to me. I overagroed when there was offtanked mobs. Healer was doing over 100tps to every mob so this is pretty big bug. Pretty insane repair bill with warrior tank. Only with protadin if this keep poking me in live.
#8163SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by philomon View Post
The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit
If you want to argue that the coefficients for Flame Shock are wrong on wowwiki etc, than we can explore that. If you are arguing that my math is wrong with the assumption that the coefficients are right, you're incorrect. I did it both ways (split the DD and the DoT and added the dmg together vs doing them in one calc) just to be sure and they both came out the same.

I will admit that I didn't check into the number of DoTs and when they'd be ticking vs when the next shock would be ready, but lets be realistic here, nobody has a 0 ping to be hitting shocks back to back anyways.
#8164SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Binkenstein
There's also the point that not using SS charges (or using them as little as possible) will give more benefit to other people, most notably the Elemental Shaman (like me). Rough estimate is a 6.7% dps boost if I get both charges, although I haven't taken into account overload eating the second charge itself (which may reduce it to 6.3%).
#8165SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rapparee
Originally Posted by Xamanes View Post
I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.
syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3?
or just stick with the season 3 weapon?
also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency

so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
Xam, this is the kind of post that will get you banned form the forums. This thread is not for "what gear should I get?" That is exactly what you asked.

The first post in this thread clearly spells out that season 3 outperforms any weapons from Hyjal or BT.
The author hated having to put that information in there, because the entire point of this thread is teach people how to figure that information out for themselves. There is a simulator for determing what weapon suits you best, please use it.

About the syphon proc, I feel your pain. A long time ago, I answered that a single syphon was 3 to 5 dps for me according to WWS reports. That post is so ancient it doesn't show up in the first few pages of a search. Because my values come from straight data, not a mathematical formula for determing the value of the proc, it's not contained in the simulator.
#8166SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
From wowwiki again.
" * Flame Shock is benefited from the Mage talent Improved Scorch
* Flame shock is benefited from the Warlock curse Curse of the Elements "
Therefore, it would do more damage if the target has those debuffs , plus it will not anger your elemental shaman. Another thing(again from wowwiki):
"This is considered the most mana efficient shock"
Usually, I'd say that mana doesn't matter, but since we have only 15 seconds of eternal mana, we should start taking notes for this as well in my oppinion. There are many shamans that complain of getting oom even.Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
#8167SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
Well I don't exactly know how accurate DrDamage is but for my warlock it seemed very very precise. And it's showing me that flameshock does around 1250 damage and earthshock only does around 1k, so only if I use my own SS charges earthshock is comparable or better, but in a raid even without an elemental shaman there are only few situations where I can use my own charges so better stick with FS/ES rotation.
#8168SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
#8169SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Piestein View Post
Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
In the OP it doesn't, I use 67%. Philomon disagreed, it was just a few posts up but here's the portion he mentions it -

Originally Posted by philomon View Post
Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.

It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:
)
And yes, its not a "Flat coeffecient", it is indeed split between the DoT and the DD. But he's incorrect to say that I have to split that and can't add it up to 67%.
a% * X + b% * Y= (a%+b%) * (X + Y). As I said, I did it both ways just to verify when I was writing that section and the results were identical. The only point I'm willing to concede is that the coefficients themselves (which I grabbed from wowwiki) might be incorrect.
#8170SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Maybe you've understood me wrong- my question was different.. The link philomon gave to provide evidence to his theory : I didn't see where it says that the coefficient is not 67%- saw an interesting post, but nothing about flame shock. Philomon, can you quote from the link that you provided, please? Because this is what you say:
"Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coefficient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion."
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
#8171SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Yah in fact that link he posted says :
Flame Shock - 67% (15% on shock, 52% over the DoT)
Which is the exact set of values that I used for the equations in the article.
#8172SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Piestein View Post
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff + 20s duration)
With 10% change avarage time to get buff is. Using 1hit per second model. x is then hit or second.
0.9 ^ x = 0.5
x = 6.57.
Let say 7 hit or second.

230ap * 20s / (72s) = 64ap = 64ep or 28% uptime.


64ep + 44expertice ep value.
Its huge its best but no that good that someones have hyped it.
Last and least. I got it and I like it.
#8173SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Oteb
Ok. guys help out. I am going insane here. I have been pve raiding shaman. Then resto pvp for god damn long time. Now going back to enh for pvp. Long story short I had a long break with melee.

I am noticing something that as i recall melee mechanic should not ever happen.
I have maxxed axe skill of course.
Wielding 2 axes.
Having around 12% in pvp gear.

And i am getting glancing blows vs level 70 mobs.
Werent glancing limited to only higher level mobs? Did anything change? Am i losing my mind?
The combat log clearly states: (glancing)

W T F is going on?
#8174SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0slant
Originally Posted by Piestein View Post
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
It goes on for several posts. My FAQ contains basically the same information as this thread, presented differently for a somewhat less sophisticated audience. Many of the spell coefficients haven't been tested since 2.1; if they've changed that would be good to know.
#8175SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Lethnon
I have a quick question....

The main page states:

"However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration."

I am getting SSC/TK/T5 geared, and I am saving badges for the fists (I admit, I suck at PVP). Obviously I will be re-enchanting my weapons. But I couldn't find any mention of the value of Armor Pen that would be necessary, and I am a bit confused because later the main page says:

"At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable."

So, how do I determine the crossover point for a double mongoose vs. an executioner/mongoose? And, assuming the latter, which one would be the preferred on the MH?
#8251SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Hedin
Redone my WF3sec, It's now for China players only...

#8252SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Hedin, that's awesome! Grats on the Eastern uptake :-)
#8253SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Psychodays
Brutalis WWS

I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
#8254SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Boss mobs are currently believed to have 5.6% dodge vs a player. It will take 23 Expertise (91 Rating) to remove Dodge from the attack table versus a boss mob.

Out of curiosity, why is that listed in the OP under 3.1.3 HASTE RATING?
#8255SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tana Umaga
Here´s the proof.

WFmiss

I was wrong, ok, no 1% unavoidable miss chance. So why WF miss?
#8256SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by iconocclast View Post
Out of curiosity, why is that listed in the OP under 3.1.3 HASTE RATING?
Failure on my part to insert text properly I guess.
#8257SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rapparee
Originally Posted by Tana Umaga View Post
Here´s the proof.

WFmiss

I was wrong, ok, no 1% unavoidable miss chance. So why WF miss?
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
#8258SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
• Toots Hepcat
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/01/08 at 5:15 PM.
#8259SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Grizlor
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.

Nerfed in today's patch.
#8260SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
Wow Web Stats WWS for our most recent BT clear with Shard of Contempt.
From what I can tell, the shard PPM was 1.2 for me.
Works out at about 50 seconds. My estimate for a base 2.6/2.6 speed was 53 seconds, so I'd say that's fairly accurate.
#8261SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mengus
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
The same reason you have to expand the detail in WWS, parries, dodges, blocks are counted as 'misses' until you drill down.
#8262SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
The same reason you have to expand the detail in WWS, parries, dodges, blocks are counted as 'misses' until you drill down.
Yeah -- if you eyeball the numbers going down the RIGHT side of the screen, we have a white attack for 233, a WF parry, and a WF attack for 444. Add 'em all up, and you've got 677 damage for the "attack," plus one non-hit, which your SCT mod is calling a "miss."
#8263SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aximous
Originally Posted by Saliik View Post
Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
The other assumption was 6,5% dodge rate, just did some trys on illidan with the shard with a total of 6% dodge reduction from expertise, and I still got dodges on stormstrike. So 6,5% seems a little more correct value.
WWS
#8264SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yakout
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.
This was, alas, hotfixed out of existence last week, and confirmed dead with this week's patch. They nailed [Terokk's Gavel] and the other lingering 1h spell damage weapons at the same time.

If you still want to go this route, your remaining best recourse is a 70 random green DPS axe, fist, or mace "of the Invoker/Sorcerer", but at +138/83 or +96 (healing or spell damage enchants, respectively, plus oil) it's a lot less appealing than a "real" caster weapon in the offhand. Still, for offspec healing (cringe) it'll beat most shields, at least after oiling...
#8265SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Occultus456
Originally Posted by Psychodays View Post
I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
Got 1881DPS today @our Killing Try with only 135 Hit and 44 Expertise Rating (Shard of Conempt), but with high Armor Penetration (1519 with Executioner Proc).
Here is my Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory

There are missing several items from BT and MH, so i think its an encounter where you can get the 2k DPS with some lucky WF Crits. We are using Retribution Paladin,SV Hunter, but no Moonkin.

All in all VERY nice encounter for Enhancement Shamans i think. Any other experiences @Brut with Armor Pen. Gear?

Recount Screen: http://s5.directupload.net/images/080401/7d2xjscb.jpg
#8266SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Stormstrike and windfury are actually pretty poor indicators of what the dodge rate is. The number of procs/usages you get from those 2 abilities during even a full BT clear of bosses is low enough that adding 1 or 2 more missed would pretty significantly fuck up your percentages.

Originally Posted by Occultus456 View Post
ut with high Armor Penetration (1519 with Executioner Proc).[/url]
Call me crazy but even if I decided to count executioner as the full 840 Armor Pen, your belt, cloak and neck do not add up to 700 additional penetration.
#8267SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tana Umaga
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
Okay, fake. I see your point and I see the fail must be on SCT, because i´ve been closely reviewing the combat log and no wf miss appears (what made me panic is that both SCT and Shaman Friend showed WF doged, WF parried and WF missed).

Sorry for the inconvinience.
#8268SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stormstrike and windfury are actually pretty poor indicators of what the dodge rate is. The number of procs/usages you get from those 2 abilities during even a full BT clear of bosses is low enough that adding 1 or 2 more missed would pretty significantly fuck up your percentages.


Call me crazy but even if I decided to count executioner as the full 840 Armor Pen, your belt, cloak and neck do not add up to 700 additional penetration.
Choker - 175
Cloak - 112
MH - 49
OH - 140
Belt - 77
Ring - 126
__________
679
#8269SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Geims
Hi.
I love this forum and specially this thread.

I'm Skyshaker and I have a question.

I use [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Dragonspine Trophy].

I just crafted [Alchemist's Stone] becouse I want to craft [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]...

Can you add those two trinket in section 3.5 with the EP?

It's [Alchemist's Stone] better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]?



Edited wrong english words... If you see other error please help me to save my idiocy.
Have a good life. =)
Geims

Last edited by Geims : 04/02/08 at 8:20 PM.
#8270SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Undernet01
One of the more prevalent suggestions is that Enhance Shaman should optimize their DPS by speccing into Elemental for a 5 second shock cooldown, 5% increased shock damage, and of course the Elemental Devastation Talent, typically achieved by removing points from Mental Quickness and/or Improved Weapon Totems for an 18/43/0 build.

The logic of this build is fundamentally flawed. A properly geared Enhancement Shaman will have at most a 6% spell crit rate from Intellect. Under perfect conditions this will amount to a 1% crit gain from Elemental Devastation. Under not-so-perfect conditions, this talent would be negligible and worthless to an Enhancement shaman.
The probability of getting 2 crit shocks in a row at 6% spell crit, in order to sustain the extra melee crit bonus of Elemental Devastation, is 1-(1- 0.6)^2 = 0.118. That's about 12% uptime of an extra 1% crit from 3 talent points.



Can you please elaborate on which Spec would be best for an Enhancement Shaman? (Possibility of using a Talent Calculator and linking to that?)

I did Search for the Answers but wasn't really able to find anything relative.
#8271SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Undernet01 View Post
Can you please elaborate on which Spec would be best for an Enhancement Shaman? (Possibility of using a Talent Calculator and linking to that?)

I did Search for the Answers but wasn't really able to find anything relative.
What you're looking for is this thread: Enhancement Cage Match: Two specs enter, One spec leaves
#8272SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Rob
I'm a fan of this build for having almost everything you'd want for PvE and almost everything you'd want for PvP. (Got us to 2126 5v5 in two nights.)
#8273SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Brasidas
Originally Posted by Psychodays View Post
I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
Nothing like having a Retadin and Oomkin in a raid (GO Illthia and Obbee) 3 Lw's in the group rocks aswell, drum cycles ftw. Would of been awesome if we had a critbear in group though. I agree with you in regards to Tommy the 4.7% miss really stands out, atleast compared to my 12.5%. Personally i wouldnt go with 210 hit, but looking forward to stealing expertise from some sunwell bosses.
#8274SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Originally Posted by Geims View Post
Hi.
I love this forum and specially this t3d.

I'm Skyshaker and I have a question.

I use [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Dragonspine Trophy].

I just crafted [Alchemist's Stone] becouse I want to craft [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]...

Can you add those two trinket in section 3.5 with the EP?

It's [Alchemist's Stone] better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]?
At the risk of possibly gaining myself an infraction for making a "useless post", may I be the first to say "Wow!"
#8275SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1diggidy
executioner

Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
#8276SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Macar
Originally Posted by iconocclast View Post
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

Edit: automatica beat me to it.
#8277SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Macar
Originally Posted by diggidy View Post
Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
Try using Yo!'s simulator.
#8278SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Scav
Question regarding EP values

Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

Last edited by Scav : 04/02/08 at 3:37 AM.
#8279SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1testthewest
Originally Posted by Scav View Post
Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?
#8280SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Exewut
Originally Posted by diggidy View Post
Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
It's not that hard if you use logic.

For Mongoose/executioner to be better than Mongoose/mongoose, executioner has to be better than mongoose, right?
Which means that you'll need to put executioner on the weapon which will cause it to proc most, which will be the slowest weapon.
#8281SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Scav
Reply to #8280:
Originally Posted by testthewest View Post
These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?
You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
#8282SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Omniro
Originally Posted by Scav View Post
Reply to #8280:


You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
What he wanted to tell you with the 1AP=1.1AP was that you don't need to change any other EP values other than AP..
Say you use engame EP values as statet in the OP:

Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18
You can leave everything as it is, but assign 1.1 points per AP. Not so hard realy

edit: Now it dawns on me that this would be very incomplete, just looking at Str which would also gain 10% and surely crit would benefit (for higher AP meaning crit influencing dmg more) and haste/hit/expertise-rating concering the "hitting-more-often" of a mob...
ah well. for me i'll stick to what stands there and just believe that because it basicly changes every stats value, it will balance out in the end (silly me...)

Last edited by Omniro : 04/02/08 at 5:12 AM.
#8283SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Raut
Originally Posted by Scav View Post
Reply to #8280:


You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
It does. If AP becomes more valuable for you, it deflates other values. The actual numbers matters nothing, the ratio between them do. Since EP=AP, AP can never change from 1 EP.

This issue is discussed several times already.

Edit: Btw, AP can of course be bumped to 1.1 EP, but all it does is inflate all other EP values by 10%. I don't see the gain in doing this.
#8284SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Freyalis
Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.
Aswell as what other posters have said about the relationships between AP, STR and the others stats. Remember that these EP values are generated by a simulator that takes into account UR already before it gives you the EP values. So you dont need to take UR into account afterwards.

So if you have an item liek you say with high crit and ArPen with a higher value than a piece with more STR then use the higher EP item.
#8285SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Scav
Ok, thank you for your answers
#8286SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kocmoc
Well, after a few words i just will copy/paste a post i made on our guildshaman forum.

A few infos... Finally we was at brutallus, where u first time ever in late t6 area, u got the chance to compare gear/dps. Simply as u wipe a lot, before that many claim the teronfight, but by oneshotting him u have chance to compare with 1 fight each week.

This said. I tested around with S3-axe, rising, Syph and i tested the different enchants in OH, so i started with mongoose on rising and later i enchanted it with exe (since its unique weap, u cant get 2 of it).

I also played around with, madness and Beserker. Since Madness-procc should make sense to stack up for better armourpene.

Needless to say, that we use any possible boost, ret pala, frenzy war, pots, damonelixir....u get it.

Nr1. S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Mongoose

It seems that the executioner effect is pretty low (at least on this boss with 8k Armour), so the extra mongoose procc gave more dps. Also the 0,2 slower weap in OH raise the chance on a WF in MH a lot. The difference is like 15-20% more WFs for MH.

Note: this is completly against any opinion Jerks post. They claim that it doesnt has effect, if u got a slower Oh.

With a war who got frenzy, i saw full potted mostly a DPS range around 1700-1900.
This i did with Madness trinket.

Note: Jerks consider "Berserker trinket" as better, i tested it a lot. For me it seems that i can spike a lot more with it, but since we did lack tries with 2x lust it is very hard to say if beserker will be better. Imo its around same. I can imagin, that in a killtry beserker would be better since id used it twice on lust.


Nr.2 S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Executioner

To make this count, i have to stack as much armour penetration as possible. So madness is a must. I have no time to check when the boff proccs are up same time, but exe is up pretty much and the madness procc is also proccing around 2 ppm.

I lack other armourpenetration pieces. Im sure i would scale a lot better, with 500-1000 more, but i couldnt get that yet.

I say, this combo is like 50-100 dps below the Nr.1.

Note: with frenzy and the meta (3% more critdamage) crit simply scale best. Im sure, that exe even with more armour penetration never can get up to mongoose, at least with a frenzy war in grp.

DPS is around 1600-1700.


Nr.3 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Mongoose

Well, not much to say. First day i had mongoose on rising, than i changed the enchant to executioner.

With 2x 2.6 weap u get a lot more "luck" DPS, so sometimes i saw me on 1800+ and than next try i could only make it to 1500.

In Average the DPS is slightly lower than the Nr.2, i say its around 1550-1650.


Nr.4 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Executioner

This is the worst combo by far.

I was like 1400-1550 DPS in most tries, like i said earlyer, a lucky try i had surely once 1700, but in average its crap.

We had around 40-50 tries, this is based on average DPS.

With frenzy war, the extra damage raised by mongoose-crit seems to scale better than executioner (Brutallus has 8k armour as far i know).

The Slow OH, raised my WF average damage always. I dont got a second S3 axe, coz lack of time and lazyness .
So its possible, that the S3 in OH would beat the Syph.

Trinkets, I switched Beserker with madness 50% of time (trophy is my other trinket), since u have to spike ur Blood fury - Beserker - hastepot + Lust to make it really scale, i have to admit that there was tries where i wasnt able to use lust at 2 min, simply as we did wipe before.

We use doublelust at timer of 2 and 4 mins, based by the CD`s of bloodfury/hastepot/rogue-CD`s.
If someone is interested i can look further in this and only compare tries where we at least got to the 4,5 min.

One thing i saw in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned, i still use it and for me its scaling best.
Especially as orc with already 5 expertice u go for 11 if u use axes, which gets u to 2,75%. At least till u get ur hands on the new t6 pieces, this belt seems best to me.

edit: I also would love to see "Damon Elixir" added, since in sunwell melee will mostly use this over flasks, at least on kill tries.

Koc

Last edited by Kocmoc : 04/02/08 at 7:23 AM.
#8287SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Brtuallus has 8.8k armor (Atleast unless my mod lies) so that means armor penetration suffers from reduced DPS returns (think of the DPS curve, this much armor is on the steep part of curve so any move downwards has minor damage effect). From multiple sims I've done mongoose/mongoose has always out performed or equalled execution untill you get to <2k armor on a boss. With brutallus you're looking at 4.5-5k armor AFTER raid debuffs so it's pretty obvious that executioner isn't going to beat mongoose.
#8288SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
Hi Guys,
Ive made a post somewhere else and I think its so good Im going to make the same post here, with some quotes to divide the old stuff (awsome), from the new stuff (extra-awsome).

I decided to ignore the simulator and look at my recount even though our damage is very fluctuational, now I will make some baseless conclusions drawn from my tiny data set. Then Sebudai will come and post his meters showing him getting bigger numbers using the talent/gear/spec I just discredited.

to mak it xtra awsum I will also use lots of lol-abbreviations so u find it painful2 read.

Koc
Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 04/02/08 at 7:51 AM.
#8289SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kocmoc
Originally Posted by Wraithlin View Post
Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.
Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.


Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post


edit:

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.
Well, maybe i didnt point it out too well, but exactly this i doubt. Months ago people did also claim that there is a downmove of DPS from 1,4 - 1,5, which obviously wasnt the case. I had the same discussions at those times as i already stated that i cant notice this "downgoin".

Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.

Last edited by Kocmoc : 04/02/08 at 8:12 AM.
#8290SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.


Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post

You should look up what a damon is, then look at your previous post. Yeah, you'll figure it out. Anyhow, maybe you should look up what a simulator does. Then you'll know why your post is dumb.
#8291SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ forostie
In an effort to be constructive:

Kocmoc: You do raise some valid points, but you're conveying them terribly. If you want people to take your work seriously you should read the posting guidelines and use your head.

What Wrathlin said I have to agree with also, the extra crit from Mongoose will be better than Executioner in most cases unless you have quite a decent amount of -AP.
#8292SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
◊ Wraithlin
If you use a tool such as Loot Rank it would be obvious that the Vashj belt is best in slot, it is however a rare drop from a boss most people will kill once or twice ever, which is why it doesnt get much mention.

[e]
We use the simulator for a reason, that reason being it is impossible to gather statistically relevant data.
6 minutes is nothing, we can collect hours of data from the unkillable mobs in blasted lands, it still isnt statistically significant.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 04/02/08 at 8:26 AM.
#8293SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kletha
Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.
First off, if you keep going like this (lol-chat-language) and "abusive"-talk toward other forum members you're gonna get banned. Both are frowned upon.

Also, the reasons the sim should be trusted over real-raid testing are quite many. Let me give you a few of them:

1. killing bosses (that are useful to test on) usually takes less than 10 mins. This is faar too little with the spiky dps we got. You'd have to do several 1000's of kills before you got a sample that's reliable enough.
2. the sim provides unlimited dps with no considerations. In a raid you have to consider so many things ranging from threat to lag to reaction time when hitting spells to having to possibly move due to other people etc etc etc.
3. the ways of gathering data in raids is fairly limited when compared to a sim where you can look at precisly what you want at what time you want.

When looking at raids there's always the "feeling" you get... A lot of people speak about this feeling but have nothing to back it up with. That's where the idea that being hasted between 1.4 and 1.5 speed would make a lot of difference in dps, something it didn't and several similar issues.
#8294SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1WantImages
Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!
#8295SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by WantImages View Post
Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!
I assume by FG and RG you mean FT (Flametongue) and RB (Rockbiter). Either way, the answer is 'no.' As should be very clear from the OP, there is never a situation where using a fast off-hand with any weapon imbue will compare to a slow OH and WF/WF.

An epic dagger with high dps (such as [Malchazeen] or [Guile of Khoraazi])and imbued with Flametongue can be used to temporarily replace a green or blue OH weapon. This comes at the cost of reduced Windfury procs, reduced Stormstrike damage, and a reduction in Flurry uptime. This should be seen as a stopgap measure only, not a weapon that you should commit to using for long periods of time.
In other words, yet another question that could have been answered by reading the OP and applying some logic.

[e] (That said, these weapons do suffer from a very bad case of The Dumb, and Blizzard really shouldn't have bothered. No one will ever use the off-hand, because it's terrible for us, and if a rogue is using a fist MH, they're generally using a sword OH. The only application I can imagine is an arms warrior picking it up for rage gen for execute spam, and even that's stretching it.)

Last edited by Rhaegal : 04/02/08 at 10:01 AM.
#8296SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rapparee
Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned
"Damon Elixir" added
Those are the only two things I found in your post.
This thread is for theorycrafting. The main intention is to teach everyone how to determine what gear is best for them. Listing gear and calling it best is not the same as teaching people how to come up with a formula. Malan had no choice but to list the best weapons, due to the sheer volume of people who simply post to ask what weapon is best.

Elixir of Demonslaying is in fact in Yo's simulator. It was there before you posted this. Go to the tab for "Buff & Debuffs", in the bottom left is a selector for what flask/elixir you want to be buffed with.


Finally, did you have any actual theorycrafting questions or perhaps something more than anecdotal data to present to the community? Posting that you did 1450 dps with one weapon, but 1600 with two different weapons is not meaningful. You neglected to inform us whether your survival hunter had crit streaks during the 1600 attempts, or that you wiped at 2mins every 1600 attempt, but wiped at 3.5 mins in the 1450 attempts. Also, I don't know about you, but DPS for me as enhance on brut was very streaky. If I was getting lucky crits, and we wiped at 4minutes.... most likely Brut was turning on the melee and killing me right after killing the fury warrior. Which makes my DPS look great.... I die right in the middle of doing great DPS.
If the wipes occured at enrage, I wasn't so fortunate. Normally at enrage, Brut was chasing down warlocks who hadn't soul shattered in a while. So I had to chase him to continue DPS... naturally my DPS dropped like a rock when Brut was able to outrun me for 20seconds out of 380seconds.
#8297SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nahela
Has anybody gotten any math down on the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I did a search but there was no concrete math done yet, just assumptions and guesses. Going to hit exalted quite soon, so I'm trying to figure out if it's worthwhile.
#8298SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
I assume by FG and RG you mean FT (Flametongue) and RB (Rockbiter). Either way, the answer is 'no.' As should be very clear from the OP, there is never a situation where using a fast off-hand with any weapon imbue will compare to a slow OH and WF/WF.

In other words, yet another question that could have been answered by reading the OP and applying some logic.

[e] (That said, these weapons do suffer from a very bad case of The Dumb, and Blizzard really shouldn't have bothered. No one will ever use the off-hand, because it's terrible for us, and if a rogue is using a fist MH, they're generally using a sword OH. The only application I can imagine is an arms warrior picking it up for rage gen for execute spam, and even that's stretching it.)
Normally, I'd say that would be the correct answer.

However, there's the set bonus to take into account (how often it procs, what the cooldown is if there is one at all, whether it is affected by magic/fire debuffs and spell damage). It will still probably be less damage than the SSO badge fists, but it would still be interesting to see how it compares in general.
#8299SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Nahela View Post
Has anybody gotten any math down on the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I did a search but there was no concrete math done yet, just assumptions and guesses. Going to hit exalted quite soon, so I'm trying to figure out if it's worthwhile.
That's because it really depends on the proc rate. I don't think I've seen a definitive answer on that yet.

If the proc is about 1PPM...for Scryers it's about 400 damage every 60s, or roughly 27 EP at .25 DPS/EP. For Aldor, 1 PPM is ~ 33 EP.

Incidentally, the Scryer bonus on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] is sort of ridiculous. +100 Expertise Rating means that, when it procs, you'll be way OVER the expertise cap (it's a 6.25% reduction to dodge/parry, not counting the passive bonus). Either somebody at Blizzard is bad at math, or there's something about Expertise that we aren't getting.
#8300SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Kletha View Post
Also, the reasons the sim should be trusted over real-raid testing are quite many. Let me give you a few of them:

1. killing bosses (that are useful to test on) usually takes less than 10 mins. This is faar too little with the spiky dps we got. You'd have to do several 1000's of kills before you got a sample that's reliable enough.
2. the sim provides unlimited dps with no considerations. In a raid you have to consider so many things ranging from threat to lag to reaction time when hitting spells to having to possibly move due to other people etc etc etc.
3. the ways of gathering data in raids is fairly limited when compared to a sim where you can look at precisly what you want at what time you want.

When looking at raids there's always the "feeling" you get... A lot of people speak about this feeling but have nothing to back it up with. That's where the idea that being hasted between 1.4 and 1.5 speed would make a lot of difference in dps, something it didn't and several similar issues.
That may be the worst thing I've read in this thread. The only reason we run sims or crunch numbers is to guide us for real raid scenarios. What you're saying is completely backwards.

Honestly sometimes all of this is just too ridiculous. Who cares what you'd expect to see if you stood there and beat on the same boss for 416 game days? Who is going to spend that much game time on one mob? Plus, how does that have any merit on what you actually observed in last week's raid? Just because you only killed each boss ONCE last week, doesn't automatically mean your numbers you actually observed from killing those bosses are wrong or irrelevant.

Let me put it this way, sample size is important for the government or insurance agencies. Sample size means exactly squat to us. If you want to know how you performed in last weeks raid, look at the numbers. Then if you still can't get your mind around it, assume that last week's raid was 100% of the population for the study on last week's raid.

Computer random number generators are not random. In theory you could flip a coin 10,000 times and end up with heads each time. In the computer you wouldn't because they programmed it to approximate what we expect to be random. Since there is no "random" in the random number generator, there really is no point to a random sampling of an extremely large population. The whole point of increasing the size of the population you're studying is to counter "random" to get as close to possible to "actual".

As far as feel goes, "feel" is just another word for experience. There is no random. Therefore a sample that's only 1 raid large is large enough to know what you need to know. It might not tell you everything you'd like to know about bosses that you have no idea of what their abilities and defenses are, but it will tell you everything you need to know about that specific raid.
#8326SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1ragga
Thanks for the update Malan.
#8327SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Atren
Read it through, nice work

Anyways, little correction to Managing your threat part -- as Retribution paladins now have talent for 30% thread reduction to all (opposed to our physical only) i doubt the part referring to them in there anymore is true.

EDIT: Clarified my sentence.

Last edited by Atren : 04/03/08 at 8:25 AM.
#8328SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
You can post corrections directly to the wiki article.
I'm checking to see whats desired, but we might end up closing this thread (archiving it) and then any discussion on "what weapon is best" etc etc would need to start a new thread.
#8329SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sintor
Not to be daft but is there a directory or perhaps a listing of some sample Yo! simulator runs for people of appropriate t6 gear levels? We are working on Brutallus and as such I am trying to make sure that my personal contribution is up to snuff, and I want to compare it to some of you who have been in on kills. I realize I can go look at WWS for the "actual" versus the "theoretical" but I am trying to make sure that the gear is there before I worry about the group-stack and method.

Thanks a bunch.
#8330SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
2.4 wDPS ep.

I have calculated these values from Yo's sim using 15shock/2minute.
I used 2*2.6 weapons.

Mh wDPS ep: 7.4
Oh wDPS ep: 3.6


These numbers slighly scale with gear -+ 1%.

Wiki version say:

Weapon DPS EP Values
Pitbuller and Rob have shown that it is possible to convert weapon DPS into EP values. This is useful to compute the total EP of a weapon in order to compare two weapons, as seen in this post (link to where you or someone compared Netherbane to MG Cleaver). The following values are only valid for a 2.6 speed weapon. EP would need to be recalculated for any other speeds. These are presented here because 2.6 is the most common speed for weapons.

1 MH DPS = 9.03 EP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP



Wich numbers you wanna use there? Or do someone retest this math with sim?
#8331SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Audrix
Comment and Question

Comment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.

Question:

I understand that [Claw of Molten Fury] is a set and we might as shamans find it quite insulting since the OH is of 1.50 speed which no ehn. shaman will use and probaly will never whish to obtain until everyone that wishes the item has it. According to my calculation its a 982.8 AEP doesn't this make the item desireable if all luck to get a [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] has been lost?

Last edited by Audrix : 04/03/08 at 7:34 PM.
#8332SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sintor
Originally Posted by Audrix View Post
Coment and Question

Coment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.

Question:

I understand that [Claw of Molten Fury] is a set and we might as shamans find it quite insulting since the OH is of 1.50 which no ehn. shaman will use and probaly will never whish to obtain until everyone that wishes the item has it. According to my calculation its a 982.8 AEP doesn't this make the item desireable if all luck to get a [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] has been lost?
In Yo!'s sim, [Claw of Molten Fury] with [Syphon of the Nathrezim] came out to better dps for me than the Tide/Syphon combo. I believe the claw is on the list of "Second only to season 3", but it just didn't make the OP as it was undiscovered trash loot until right before 2.4.
#8333SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kaladian
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
Having just done Brutallus for the first time yesterday it must be said that this fight is amazingly fun for melee.

I respeced an elemental subspec for the first time and had moderate results Wow Web Stats .

I was consistently able to sustain just under 2100 dps while twisting, on the kill I forgot to repot after my elixir of demonslaying wore off so lost a bit of DPS there. I had never been ele before so wasn't sure about whether to keep a 1;1 rotation so ended up doing 1;2 letting Flameshock get it's last tick. I also ran oom for about 10s because JoW was knocked off and not reapplied.

There were a few times my rotation fell apart because I was leading the raid and had to move groups or type something out. 3 drummers in the group and about every buff imaginable bar world buffs.

With a Mounting Vengeance and a SoC I think I could comfortably get around 2120 dps.

Anyway as I said I loved this fight and will look forward to it every week.


Edit -sorry linked a wws that didn't include pets. Wow Web Stats should be correct.

Joy thanks for the post, that is great information for shaman working on Brut. I just wished you would have logged out in your enhancement gear instead of healing =). 2100 dps is very impressive.
#8334SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aksing
I am currently working on Brutallus myself, and am pushing for that 2k barrier.

I have always noticed when simulating how the more of a stat you have the less EP it usually gives. Ofc there are obvious exceptions, but you see where i'm going here. It's usually the stats you have less of that offer the biggest EP gain. That said, on Brutallus when you have every buff available, and are having drums of battle chained on you all the time, i was wondering whether anyone has found Insane Strength Pots to offer up more dps boost than a haste pot?

Or whether the haste would still offer the biggest dps gain, even with Bloodlust, and drums etc.

Was pushing 1900 dps last time without a ret pally or arms warrior. Going in with them next time so really hoping to see that 2k mark reached.
#8335SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Audrix View Post
Coment and Question

Coment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.
This is precisely the type of comment that should have been a reply to the wiki, not here.
#8336SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ogniac
New badge loot

I've been considering this for along time.

Now when patch 2.4 has been realesed and the new badge loot comes you can now buy the fist weps:
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
And:
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I currently have Gladiator's Cleaver in main hand and Boggspine Knuckles in offhand (Wich is kinda sucks).

So my question is, should i buy the fist weps or should i spend them on armor gear like chest and legs. And i've heard from friends that buying the fist weps will decrease my dps since the haste screws up the WF mechanics. But wouldn't the white swings make up for my Wf procs?

Yeah, overall the weps are an upgrade. Just alittle confused about the haste.
#8337SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
Originally Posted by Aksing View Post
I am currently working on Brutallus myself, and am pushing for that 2k barrier.

I have always noticed when simulating how the more of a stat you have the less EP it usually gives. Ofc there are obvious exceptions, but you see where i'm going here. It's usually the stats you have less of that offer the biggest EP gain. That said, on Brutallus when you have every buff available, and are having drums of battle chained on you all the time, i was wondering whether anyone has found Insane Strength Pots to offer up more dps boost than a haste pot?

Or whether the haste would still offer the biggest dps gain, even with Bloodlust, and drums etc.

Was pushing 1900 dps last time without a ret pally or arms warrior. Going in with them next time so really hoping to see that 2k mark reached.

Do you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.

Haste pots seemed to be better for me. I use bloodlust for my group off the start, then 45seconds later I hit haste pot/berserking then just use everything as the cooldown comes up.
#8338SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yinn
EP for Shattered Sun Pendant of Might?

Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
#8339SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by Ogniac View Post
I've been considering this for along time.

Now when patch 2.4 has been realesed and the new badge loot comes you can now buy the fist weps:
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
And:
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I currently have Gladiator's Cleaver in main hand and Boggspine Knuckles in offhand (Wich is kinda sucks).

So my question is, should i buy the fist weps or should i spend them on armor gear like chest and legs. And i've heard from friends that buying the fist weps will decrease my dps since the haste screws up the WF mechanics. But wouldn't the white swings make up for my Wf procs?

Yeah, overall the weps are an upgrade. Just alittle confused about the haste.
/broken record

Use the simulator linked in the OP. Run 3 sims.

Current Gear
Gear with 2.4 badge fists
Gear with 2.4 armor pieces

Compare results and figure out what will give the biggest bang for the buck immediately.

Also, refer to the OP in regards to haste.
#8340SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Killme888
Originally Posted by Totalitar View Post
Do you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.

Haste pots seemed to be better for me. I use bloodlust for my group off the start, then 45seconds later I hit haste pot/berserking then just use everything as the cooldown comes up.
Your spec confuses me, no Call of Flame, one of the main reason to spec elemental. Elemental Focus...? That's even worse than Elemental Devastation. Elemental Warding also helps tons with burns for Brutallis, with SR and Elemental Warding I think the final ticks were doing about 1k per tick instead of 1.5k.
#8341SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Yinn View Post
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
Just to clarify, you can reach the expertise cap for melee DPS prior to the new sunwell gear.

[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]

Grand total is 117 expertise rating, 14 over the presumed cap for alliance/non-orc shaman (or orcs not wielding axes).
#8342SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nahela
Anybody know if Enhancer is broken at the moment? I can't get any of the menu commands to work and anytime I drop a totem I get a massive error. Fresh install of the latest build.
#8343SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
Originally Posted by Killme888 View Post
Your spec confuses me, no Call of Flame, one of the main reason to spec elemental. Elemental Focus...? That's even worse than Elemental Devastation. Elemental Warding also helps tons with burns for Brutallis, with SR and Elemental Warding I think the final ticks were doing about 1k per tick instead of 1.5k.
I was trying to sava mana last night because our ret paladin was not on but I still wanted to be able to do 2 shocks per twist. In the end it didn't help much anyways to have 5/5 convection. Usually I have concussion/warding/CoF/reverb.
#8344SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Yinn View Post
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would it matter if you're at the expertise cap for this item? Because the Aldor proc is AP, its EP value won't change depending on the rest of your gear. The Scryer proc is direct elemental damage, and I'm not sure yet whether it can be dodged (more likely it's subject to resists), and if so, whether its dodge chance can be modified by your expertise.
#8345SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
I think a lot of people are confusing [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might].

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] = Aldor: +100 dodge, Scryer: +100 expertise.
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] = Aldor: +200atk, Scryer: ~400 arcane dmg proc.
#8346SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mezzeric
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
After this post there was a bit of discussion about theridge in the graph for equal-speed weapons. They appear inferior, but then someone asked if the sim took into account the benefit match-speed weapons had from both being haste for the final (third) hit in flurry. Yo said that the sim did not account for that. I did not see any further discussion about this on the following few pages.

Did further work show that the third-flurry-hit benefit outweighs the loss shown in the sim, for DWing identical-speed weapons?
This is something I have been wondering myself, and I havent been able to find any other posts that adress the issue with a solid answer. Is the extra attack under flurry (and subsequently the extra flurry uptime) enough to remove the dps lost to the extra offhand WF procs? Or is the one extra attack trivial and the loss from WF too substantial?
#8347SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1actiQ
WF timer is not working in Enhancer.
#8348SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by actiQ View Post
WF timer is not working in Enhancer.
It hasn't worked since 2.4 came out. There are a few other mods that will show the WF cooldown though. Actually, Enhancer is broken completely it seems atm. Time to find another one!
#8349SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1drastic
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input
#8350SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Sebudai
I was running some simulations today with Yo's! simulator and I was getting some weird EP values for haste rating. Based off of my current gear it was averaging out at 0.44 EP, which seems really low. The last time I ran the simulator haste was coming in at an EP value of 2.0, and the only thing that has changed for me since then is I picked up a Shard of Contempt and T6 bracers.

Was this already mentioned? I searched the thread but didn't see anything.
#8351SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
First I've heard it mentioned.
#8352SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I was running some simulations today with Yo's! simulator and I was getting some weird EP values for haste rating. Based off of my current gear it was averaging out at 0.44 EP, which seems really low. The last time I ran the simulator haste was coming in at an EP value of 2.0, and the only thing that has changed for me since then is I picked up a Shard of Contempt and T6 bracers.

Was this already mentioned? I searched the thread but didn't see anything.
Been running sims today and was getting normal 1.9ish values for haste. Are you sure you didn't enter a strange value for haste %? Maybe missed a decimal or something.

o you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.
I've been gettng easily over 1800 DPS on brut, occasionally breaking 2k DPS with a full twist + 2 shocks cycle. Call of flame is pretty nice damage buff, was getting 115 DPS from searing totem alone. Will upload some WWS tomorrow, had ret pally + MS warrior in group.
#8353SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Audrix
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
This is precisely the type of comment that should have been a reply to the wiki, not here.
It had a typo so maybe a good thing I didn't :P Plus its new thread and I wasn't comfortable posting there yet.
#8354SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by drastic View Post
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input
Because our damage isn't normalized.

Damage per hit is calculated by taking the DPS of a weapon and dividing that by the weapon's base speed. Faster weapons do less damage per hit, proportional to their swing time.

damage per hit = weapon dps * weapon spd.

When an attack is normalized, a weapon that hits half as often hits twice as hard to balance it out. Thus, our autoattack damage is normalized.

AA dps = damage per hit / weapon spd

However, Stormstrike ALWAYS hits at the same rate -- once every ten seconds. A faster weapon doesn't hit more often, and as a result can never recoup the damage lost by being faster.

SS dps = damage per hit / 10s.

Windfury is also not normalized. True, you will proc WF a bit more often with a faster weapon, but you can never proc it more than once every three seconds. Thus, there's a hard limit to the increase in the number of hits over time.

WF dps = 2x damage per hit / (3s + <some lag, shortened by weapon speed>)

Getting a faster mainhand would help get a few more mainhand procs, but you'll be losing damage on both WF and SS and if you simulate it you'll notice that the effect of increased MH procs doesn't offset the effect of lost damage due to our un-normalized attacks.

Your main hand weapon will naturally proc a bit more than your offhand, because the mainhand is always evaluated first after a Stormstrike.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/03/08 at 7:47 PM.
#8355SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Been running sims today and was getting normal 1.9ish values for haste. Are you sure you didn't enter a strange value for haste %? Maybe missed a decimal or something.
Yeah, I still have the window with my values open and I've checked every tab multiple times now. I've input 3.93% haste.

Also, I'm getting really low values for expertise rating, which I assume is because I've gained a bunch of expertise lately. However, it seems weird that the value would drop so dramatically. I'm not capped yet, and it seems like the last few points should at least be in the same realm of value as the first few. Pre-Shard of Contempt/T6 bracers my EP value for expertise was 3.18. Now it's coming in at 0.77.
#8356SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Quaunaut
A new version of Enhancer was just released, but as far as I can tell, it does nothing, and the AEP setting on it is gone as well, though he says in the "News" part that has now split into another mod(which the URL to doesn't work).

Heres to hoping its back soon 'nuf.
#8357SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yo!
Originally Posted by Saliik View Post
It seems just because the sim is hitting the cap, I shouldn't lower the value of each point until I hit the cap.
+ Changed step used for calculating EP value of expertise from 10 expertise (2.5% dodge reduction) to 1% dodge reduction (hit, crit, haste all use 1% steps) and even lower if approaching expertise cup (but be aware of reduced stability of EP value for expertise in such case)
#8358SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Voss
Aye, I downloaded it and promptly lost all of my totem timers as well. =(
#8359SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Wraithlin
I was getting the pposite sebudai, really high values (like 1.9 for crit, 1.8 for haste).
#8360SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Yinn View Post
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
First, a link to a useful post: http://elitistjerks.com/699120-post122.html

The conclusion tunah came to about [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] was that it has a 45 sec internal cooldown, with a 15% proc rate. More importantly, that thread has a link to the library he wrote to take as input data from the new combat log, and output the information we're looking for.

Anyway, my shaman is currently sitting in Dire Maul whacking one of the spirits there, and will be until morning. I'll see what I can do about either running that on my log or making a buddy of mine (who is significantly more well versed than I) do so. Worst case, I'll PM the author and see if he can run it real quick on my data, since he's already been doing work on one of the necks.
#8361SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I confess I'm a bit intimidated by over 300 pages of posts. If I'm repeating, I apologize. That said, I recently got a Breeching Comet drop on my alt shammy. I'm planning to get the badge fists of brutality when my server builds the anvil, so I was crunching some numbers on a cheap temporary enchant for my new axe. I didn't find any EP values for enchantments in a brief skim of this thread, so I ran the numbers myself, and then got a bit carried away:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
#8362SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mengus
Originally Posted by Jessamy View Post
t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime

Interesting finding on Striking on MH... With Potency, did you add kings for the t6 ep? (2.2 for str there as opposed to 2 for the other two?
#8363SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
Not quite. WDPS is kinda tricky. +7dmg is not +7wdps its +7damage / speed

7 / 2.6 = 2.7wdps
2.7 * 9.03 = 24.3ep

Also + damage enchants dont suffer OH penalty so strinking for oh is bad as its for mh.
#8364SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Originally Posted by Jessamy View Post
t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str

Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
Interesting finding on Striking on MH... With Potency, did you add kings for the t6 ep? (2.2 for str there as opposed to 2 for the other two?
I lolled
#8365SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Originally Posted by drastic View Post
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input

you want every possible swing to have teh chance to WF and it has a 3 sec vd. read the first post or dont post again imo.
#8366SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Audrix
Originally Posted by Quaunaut View Post
A new version of Enhancer was just released, but as far as I can tell, it does nothing, and the AEP setting on it is gone as well, though he says in the "News" part that has now split into another mod(which the URL to doesn't work).

Heres to hoping its back soon 'nuf.
EquivalencePoints can be downloaded at World of Warcraft Addons - WowAce.com or using WowAceUpdater

Hope it helps

The defualt values from the high level Enh Shammy set are kinda wierd maybe it might be better to import your personal values. Haven't had a chance to really tweak and test it to be honest.
#8367SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kint
I apologize in advance for the newb question, and I have already used the search thread feature but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I always just took Sebudai's t6 EP values as my own when planning out what gear I wanted, but lately have been more interested in messing around with Yo's a bit myself, sooooo...

When you input your MH and OH dps you just do the actual weapon DPS, not the value calculated after Haste and AP correct? It's what I have been doing so far, and the numbers seem in line with what I expect, just want to make sure I'm not doing it wrong.
#8368SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Joy
Originally Posted by Kint View Post
I apologize in advance for the newb question, and I have already used the search thread feature but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I always just took Sebudai's t6 EP values as my own when planning out what gear I wanted, but lately have been more interested in messing around with Yo's a bit myself, sooooo...

When you input your MH and OH dps you just do the actual weapon DPS, not the value calculated after Haste and AP correct? It's what I have been doing so far, and the numbers seem in line with what I expect, just want to make sure I'm not doing it wrong.
Aye standard weapon speed. Haste and Flurry are added elsewhere (Flurry is enabled by default).
#8369SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Aw dang I knew it was too good to be true. Even with my bad numbers it still wasn't good enough anyway. Here's my spreadsheet with corrected numbers:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 10.0   10.0   10.0  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
This puts striking back down into the realm of not worth mentioning (as the OP rightly didn't). I still find it fun to have hard numbers for the rest of the choices.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Slightly more Re: [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

WWS of "Arcane Strike" ability from last night's quick required-bosses-in-Kara run: Wow Web Stats (ignore the wipes... we were running with 2 healers, both of which are alts of people who'd never healed a raid before... I never thought I'd have to explain to someone that they can drag raid frames from the fault UI out onto their screen...)

90 total hits of Arcane Strike, 30 crits = based on melee crit rate. Crits for 2x, but since the max non-crit is 404 and the max crit is 831, I suspect that it's affected by [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. Will know for sure after messing around with my combat log from last night's Dire Maul marathon.

Amusingly, I had zero dodges or resists, but it was parried twice on trash, implying that it's subject to parry/dodge mechanics instead of resists, which is consistent with its crit mechanics. However, it is, interestingly enough, subject to partial resists, which I saw 9 of last night.

Dire Maul data pending, doubt I'll have any more info until I can parse it tomorrow.
#8371SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Jessamy View Post
Aw dang I knew it was too good to be true. Even with my bad numbers it still wasn't good enough anyway. Here's my spreadsheet with corrected numbers:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 10.0   10.0   10.0  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
This puts striking back down into the realm of not worth mentioning (as the OP rightly didn't). I still find it fun to have hard numbers for the rest of the choices.
Still wrong Oh strinking value.
"Also + damage enchants dont suffer OH penalty so strinking for oh is bad as its for mh."
#8372SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Hopefully I can stop being wrong and go back to learning.

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking    +7 dmg
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
#8373SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolflord
I just picked up the [Fist of Molten Fury] to complete the set for looks. We had a fun little jaunt into TK for shoulders and I decided to try it out (unenchanted). Testing was just to see if the set bonus proc was worth the 100 or so dps loss of switching to a fast/flametongue offhand. It isnt. It procs often enough, but the damage is miniscule, worked out as under 1% of my damage. Still running the instance, so no WWS yet, but can post later if anyone is interested.
#8374SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Roonie
Hi all

Is there any reason why [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] is no longer listed as a reccomended MH weapon?

I see the offhand is still stated as a good choice on the updated front page. - Is this an oversight or is there more to it?


Cheers.

R
#8375SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Haven't gotten around to it, I'm in the middle of a busy period at work, my wedding is in 22 days, and I'm still trying to raid.
#8451SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Also remember searing totem is currently bugged on WWS too, so if you keep a 100% uptime with a 3/3 call of flame you're looking at about 115-125 DPS more than whats shown on WWS at the moment. According to recount (that counts totem dmg) I did 2098.6 DPS / 759339 Damage on the kill so searing totem did ~47k damage.

Brutallus first kill

Thats with 16/45/0 spec, twisting + 2 shocks/10 secs. Often did back to back ES to avoid FS clipping since I have both SS charges. FS/ES/ES/FS/ES/ES was basically it.
#8452SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thais
hi,

when i run yo's simulator with raidbuffs marked i get an aep-value for haste of 1.09. last time i checked ( several weeks ago ) it was much more and in the first post the estimated value for end game is 1.69.

i'm a little bit confused, can anybody help?
#8453SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Thais test without hastepots.


To Mox:
"Fs/es vs. fs/es/es

24 shocks per 2 minutes, Reverberation fs/es: 216DPS

8 shocks per 2 minutes fs only: 68DPS
16 shocks per 2minutes es only 118DPS
total:
24 shocks per 2minute fs/es/es 186DPS

Even if you can get SS debuff for every es its only +22dps and total 208DPS.
Even without scorch + CoE and with SS fs/es is better than fs/es/es. 204dps vs 194dps

Edit: numbers dont include conclusion but its change nothing for results its just multplier"

Old math but its show that fs with only three tick is superrior to SS charge boosted ES.
#8454SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?
Regardless of class or spec, if someone tells you that you need X of some stat to be effective, they're almost certainly wrong. Run the simulator, get stat weights, see if any of the items you could be wearing are better for you than the items you are wearing.
#8455SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Also remember searing totem is currently bugged on WWS too, so if you keep a 100% uptime with a 3/3 call of flame you're looking at about 115-125 DPS more than whats shown on WWS at the moment. According to recount (that counts totem dmg) I did 2098.6 DPS / 759339 Damage on the kill so searing totem did ~47k damage.

Brutallus first kill

Thats with 16/45/0 spec, twisting + 2 shocks/10 secs. Often did back to back ES to avoid FS clipping since I have both SS charges. FS/ES/ES/FS/ES/ES was basically it.
Khaelyn - WWS

Last night's kill. So add about 85-95 dps from Searing Totem for a total of ~1950 DPS. I was doing 2.1k dps until my Demonslaying faded (which I only realised after the fight... sigh) and I went OOM at some point due to having to blow SRage too early (Burn forced me to use it, I was dropping low)
#8456SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
All info from the OP wiped clean. Wiki is the sole point of reference now.
#8457SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ribbitjones
Improved WWS report

You can view the improved WWS report accounting damage for your Fire totems.

Look on your report you should see this sentence:
"This report might have some bugs, and will improve as the dev goes on."
Click on the dot at the end of the sentence.

Thank you to my fellow enh shaman - Nia - for finding that out.

Example:
http://wowwebstats.com/wxmqw6tuhfqgw
#8458SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Ribbitjones View Post
You can view the improved WWS report accounting damage for your Fire totems.

Look on your report you should see this sentence:
"This report might have some bugs, and will improve as the dev goes on."
Click on the dot at the end of the sentence.

Thank you to my fellow enh shaman - Nia - for finding that out.

Example:
http://wowwebstats.com/wxmqw6tuhfqgw
Then it doesn't split into boss attempts for my parses.
#8459SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Xiongmao
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Khaelyn - WWS

Last night's kill. So add about 85-95 dps from Searing Totem for a total of ~1950 DPS. I was doing 2.1k dps until my Demonslaying faded (which I only realised after the fight... sigh) and I went OOM at some point due to having to blow SRage too early (Burn forced me to use it, I was dropping low)
I had that problem too, so I justed started popping them right before the pull, and another one at 3minutes, bit more expensive on wipes, but at least it's rarer to forget. I just park an alt in hinterlands cave to farm 2-3 ghost mushrooms before I log on to my main.

Thanks for the searing totem reminder by the way, I'm closer to 2k dps!

As for what ribbitjones was saying, try: Wow Web Stats and click on the period right after "dev goes on". Though I'm not 100% sure it's accurate because I know I had 100% uptime on searing totem and the report shows it only adding 26 dps.

Edit: spelling

Second Edit: after further investigation, it's probably just a bug in the new engine. From Laeth's wws, the searing totem did ~32k damage, while from mine it shows ~7k damage.

Last edited by Xiongmao : 04/10/08 at 12:16 PM.
#8460SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Spasticon
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Then it doesn't split into boss attempts for my parses.
It's still very early alpha preview of the new parser. Good news is it credits us with our totems.
#8461SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pathbearer
I have a silly and (hopefully) easy question regarding Yo!'s simulator that I can't seem to find an answer to in here, or on the simulator itself.

Regarding the Haste% field, when you start the simulator up it has a default of 5% entered already. Now, is this like Spell hit% in that it's a standard talent bonus (3% listed for Nature's Guidance), like some averaged Flurry addition, or is it an arbitrary number put in the simulator when you start it up? I've always wondered if I'm throwing up my Weights because I have been entering my base value of haste off my character screen (which is way under 5%).
#8462SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
That's just a sample value, if you have no haste gear, enter 0. Don't enter anything for flurry.
#8463SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pathbearer
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's just a sample value, if you have no haste gear, enter 0. Don't enter anything for flurry.
Thank you very much! I figured as much, but again, I didn't want to throw off my Weights and calculations on an assumption.
#8464SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Originally Posted by Shenanigans
My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?
Regardless of class or spec, if someone tells you that you need X of some stat to be effective, they're almost certainly wrong. Run the simulator, get stat weights, see if any of the items you could be wearing are better for you than the items you are wearing.
Corollary: if it's on the WoW forums, and it isn't in blue, it's probably wrong.

For example: 221 hit rating would put you at 14% hit. Our miss chance is 28% and we get 9% from talents, so you'd still have a miss chance of 5% at that point. The hit cap has been 300 for about 6 months.

211 haste rating is 13.4% haste; I don't see what's so damn special about that number. With flurry it'd put your 2.6s weapons at 1.76. The only theoretical reduction in haste rating's efficacy I'm aware of would be the amount that would drop you from 1.51 to 1.5s, and even still you'd see an increase in DPS.

Haste is ALWAYS good. Even if you miss a lot, it's better to miss fast than miss slow. There are surely gear levels where 1 point of hit rating will have more value than 1 point of haste rating, but rarely is that the choice you have to make.

Planning an upgrade? It's easy! Just know your EP, and stop reading the WoW forums.
#8465SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
stop reading the WoW forums.
This is the very best advice, second only to "Read the OP".
#8466SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Wolfhand
Hello, here's a small set of questions regarding haste.

I raid with my guild as Enhancement and have been doing fairly well for myself in BT/Hyjal recently. Haste rating has been creeping into my gear as of late, and the prospect of maximizing it has been kind of tantalizing, although I'm kind of loathe to trade it for hit. But then I got a different idea.

I've been putting together a rough "best-in-slot" profile for solely going after haste rating as Enhancement, and have run into a few problems along the way while testing how it might work numerically. I've looked around somewhat for definitive answers, but the wowwiki page didn't really help and pretty much all my searches regarding 'haste' turn up '15.76 haste rating is 1%' or something similar.

The %haste bonuses from Flurry and Bloodlust seem to benefit my weapon speed in a different manner than haste rating to some degree. What exactly is going on there? Up until now, I thought that obtaining 100% haste would cut my weapon speed in half, 200% to a fourth, and so on. But between a Dragonspine proc(20~%) and Flurry/BL(30%/30%), my weapon speed is cut by more than half.

This is going to sound silly, but my ultimate goal in seeing what one can do by stacking enough haste doesn't really have anything to do with maximizing DPS; it's to see if I make your average grinding experience with a two-handed weapon enjoyable. I am well aware that 2h is completely inferior for any cases where sustained damage is involved, but I enjoy using them from time to time and would like to get more use out of them in solo play. Since(as aforementioned) most haste gear has little to no hit and already packs a decent balance of agility/crit rating and ATP, I don't have to tweak much to test it out if I collect haste gear exclusively.

Ultimately, I figure it has to come down to the two-handed weapon to become capable of swinging nearly twice(with haste) in the same timeframe that your average dual-wielder swings once with both weapons(without haste). So when the max amount of haste % I was able to dredge up ideally didn't break 30% by itself, I thought I was wasting my time.

But if haste rating from gear and % haste effects have some sort of varying impact, then I figured it was still worth looking into.

The ideal profile I could come up with picking out mail and leather pieces with haste rating taking that into consideration(using WoWHead to rifle through potential equipment):

Chest:       Embrace of the Phoenix                - 44 Haste (2.79%)
Feet:        Skyshatter Greaves                    - 20 Haste (1.27%)
Hands:       Fists of Mukoa                        - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Head:        Duplicitous Guise                     - 34 Haste (2.16%)
Legs:        Shallow-grave Trousers                - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Shoulders:   Swiftstrike Shoulders                 - 38 Haste (2.41%)
Waist:       Shadow-walker's Cord                  - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Wrist:       Bindings of Lightning Reflexes        - 27 Haste (1.71%)
Neck:        Clutch of Demise                      - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Finger1:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Finger2:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Back:        Cloak of Fiends                       - 25 Haste (1.59%)
Weapon:      The Blade of Harbingers               - 53 Haste (3.36%)

Total                                              - 437 Haste(27.73%)

Flurry                                                        (30.00%)?
Bloodlust                                                     (30.00%)?

Dragonspine Trophy                                 - 325 Haste(20.62%)

Normal max:					             (108.35%)?
So, I figured where better to ask? What exactly am I missing here, guys?

Last edited by Wolfhand : 04/10/08 at 6:51 PM.
#8467SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ardonomus
Had another expertise-raid tonight with 103 expertise rating. No dodges with expertise gear. WWS Loading...

The log shows up 15 swing dodges, 2 WF dodges and 1 SS dodge. This is because I somehow managed to die on the council, and at some point during the fight I had clicked my hotkey for closetgnome to swap me into my PVP gear without noticing. This resulted in me ankhing with PVP gear on, you could say I was well annoyed when I ankhed with 0 expertise. However, the only dodges in the parse are on the Council kill parse, which means none of my other swings with expertise gear was dodged. I could of course have been dodged when in my expertise gear half of that parse though, so I dont know if I'll have to do another raid in the same gear just to make sure.
#8468SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deetz
I've been trying to find out which to use, i have my hit rating at 13.44% and expertise at 2.75% but im trying to decide which is best for my neck peice and its rather [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] this neck which will give me about 1% to expertise and hit rating by equipping, but the proc is 100 expertise that procs quite a lot (which goes to 10.25% expertise when proc'd) but doing so i lose 64AP .......
Or should i use [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] which will give me that 64AP when equipped and procs for 333-388 damage or so, and can crit but isnt affected by +spelldamage ....Im having a hard time choosing because they both help, one for good bursts, the other for some good over time damage but they seem almost the same..... If you want to see my toon on the Armory its Deetz, on Kirin tor a troll shaman...... I've seen everyones info, and it has helped me, and im hoping you could help me with this now. please and thanks
#8469SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I've been wondering the same thing, and I think my question boils down to this -- is there a way to assign an EP value to spell damage procs (Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom, Romulo's Poison Vial, Shattered Sun Pendant of Might, etc)? If I had an EP value, then I could simply calculate which is better rather than which i like more.

On a different subject, once this thread is closed, the plan is to start new discussion threads for different aspects of Enhancement theorycrafting. Could links to those threads be added to the wiki? I don't want to wander around lost and find myself in, for example, the "[Shaman] Elemental v. Enhance - balance QQ thread."
#8470SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Yes you just need to figure out what the damage proc is, what its "average value" is based on uptime, and then figure out how much attack power in the sim it takes to yield that same DPS increase.
#8471SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I just realized I have a contribution for the wiki. Mark of Vindication has a higher EP value than Romulo's Poison Vial, is farmable, and is available at level 62 for the up-and-coming shaman too!
#8472SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1keltzed
Originally Posted by Wolfhand View Post
Hello, here's a small set of questions regarding haste.

Chest:       Embrace of the Phoenix                - 44 Haste (2.79%)
Feet:        Skyshatter Greaves                    - 20 Haste (1.27%)
Hands:       Fists of Mukoa                        - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Head:        Duplicitous Guise                     - 34 Haste (2.16%)
Legs:        Shallow-grave Trousers                - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Shoulders:   Swiftstrike Shoulders                 - 38 Haste (2.41%)
Waist:       Shadow-walker's Cord                  - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Wrist:       Bindings of Lightning Reflexes        - 27 Haste (1.71%)
Neck:        Clutch of Demise                      - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Finger1:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Finger2:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Back:        Cloak of Fiends                       - 25 Haste (1.59%)
Weapon:      The Blade of Harbingers               - 53 Haste (3.36%)

Total                                              - 437 Haste(27.73%)

Flurry                                                        (30.00%)?
Bloodlust                                                     (30.00%)?

Dragonspine Trophy                                 - 325 Haste(20.62%)

Normal max:					             (108.35%)?
So, I figured where better to ask? What exactly am I missing here, guys?
My understanding is that different haste effects stack differently than you're applying them here. Percent-based haste effects stack multiplicatively, and all of your haste rating numbers get added together, converted to one percentage, and then that stacks as a multiplier on your other haste effects. For example, if you just have Flurry and Bloodlust up, rather than attacking at (100% - 30%) - 30% = 40% of your base attack time (60% haste), you attack at (100% - 30%) * (100% - 30%) = 70% * 70% = 49% of your base attack time = 51% haste.

So for your numbers, you'd get your best-caste haste by adding together the haste rating from all of your static haste items and the Dragonspine Trophy to get 762 haste rating (48.35%, though I didn't check your haste rating -> haste %age) math, and then apply that as a multiplier on the haste from Flurry and Bloodlust. (100% - 30%) * (100% - 30%) * (100% - 48.35%) = 70% * 70% * 51.65% = 25.3% of base attack rate or 74.7% haste.
#8473SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
So in this case, 100% haste actually means infinite weapon speed. Huh. And it's set up so that that divide-by-zero situation couldn't occur unless you had 100% haste from a single source, since it's multiplicative. 1576 haste rating to crash the game if Blizzard is sloppy!

Thanks a lot, this clears up the discrepancies I had pretty cleanly.
#8474SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
No actually, 100% haste does *not* mean a weapon speed of zero. I can't remember the actual method, I'm sure someone knows, but its not just WpnSpeed * Haste%. Its not possible to reach zero weapon speed.

[e] Ah here it is. NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (1 + HASTE_PERCENT)
#8475SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
Okay, now I'm confused again. Am I wrong in thinking putting %100 into that formula would mean

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (2) ?

That is to say, having 100% haste is only 50% of base attack rate? That's what I initially thought it was until a contradicting situation came up(flurry/dragonspine haste/BL cut my base attack rate by more than 50%, and this combination is not 100% haste).

Can someone explain how this formula works in context?
#8476SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Buanna
100% haste means you get 100% more attacks in the same unit time.

If you normally got 20 swings in 20 seconds and some how managed to gain 100% haste, you'd get 40 swings in 20 seconds; a 100% increase in swings.
#8477SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Wolfhand View Post
Okay, now I'm confused again. Am I wrong in thinking putting %100 into that formula would mean

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (2) ?

That is to say, having 100% haste is only 50% of base attack rate? That's what I initially thought it was until a contradicting situation came up(flurry/dragonspine haste/BL cut my base attack rate by more than 50%, and this combination is not 100% haste).

Can someone explain how this formula works in context?
If I remember correctly, % haste modifiers are separately multiplicative and plain haste rating (passive and procs) is additive.

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (1 + Haste % modifiers) / (1 + Haste rating/15.67/100)

So the above gear set would yield: NEW_SPEED = 3.5 / 1.3 / 1.3 / (1 + 762/15.76/100) = 1.4 secs

The problem with the first post in this discussion is that all haste effects were treated additively, which I'm fairly certain isn't the case.
#8478SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Hedin
Why you think that 2.6 sec = SPEED?! It's Swing Time!
Speed=1/Swing_Time
Haste effects Speed like New_speed=Old_speed*Haste
So New_Swing_Time=Old_Swing_Time/Haste
where Haste=(1+Haste_from_flurry)*(1+Haste_from_largest_nonself_modifier)*(1+Haste_rating/15.67/100)
#8479SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
Allright, I think I get it.

So if you had say, a 3.0 speed weapon and 52% haste from gear, then

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / (1.52) = 1.97, and while the swing time has been cut by something closer to 33% the amount of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe using this weapon increases by 52%.

Adding in Flurry,

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / ((1.52) * (1.3)) = 1.51, the swing time has been cut nearly in half, increasing the number of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe by 97-98%.

I just interpreted what %haste meant incorrectly the first time, then. Thanks a lot, everyone!
#8480SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
◊ Malan
I have 4% haste from armor items.
Hasted Speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.04) = 2.5

I have 50% haste from items.
Hasted speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.5) = 1.73

Here's another way to look at it.

2.0sec / swing = 30 swing/min
30 swing/min * 1.3 = 39 swing/min
60 seconds/min / 39 swing/min = 1.538 seconds / swing

The easiest way to look at haste is that it is increasing the number of swings per minute that you can have. 50% haste isn't really reducing your swing timer per se (inded there are values of haste% where your swing timer won't match up with the value!) its increasing your number of attacks in a minute by 50%. The system that blizzard is using ensures that you can never reach a 0 attack speed.

Last edited by Malan : 04/11/08 at 9:40 AM.
#8481SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deetz
Alright for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] i found out the proc rate, its about every 40-45seconds or so, and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] procs a lot more, about about every 30-35seconds or so (i spent a good 45min testing this out myself) And sorta in a way i think the expertise one is better because of the proc of gaining more hits, over the instant damage......but just for second thoughts what do you all think? :P
#8482SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
That's not the proc rate, you're observing the cooldown on the proc. We need to know at what rate it procs when not on cooldown, that requires a long log file.
#8483SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1kelben
Shrug - tell me how to take a log file for this proc, and i'll submit it. Oh i'm still needing a good place to test it... no more doc boom since I'm melee now.

edit: WoW Combat Log Parser is this the mod I should use?
#8484SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Abakus
Procc Rate Determination is easy in Blasted Lands.
Just fight Servants of xxx, unless you follow the quest line, they are invincible and do not hit that hard.
#8485SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhagok
I have a question about twisting with the new mechanic of being able to destroy single totems. How would a macro look like that would be for twisting which would destroy the current air totem before placing a new one? Or well simply the Macro code for the destruction of the air totem would suffice, I think I can work out the rest myself ^^

Anyway I think it would help sustain twisting after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change. I for one got me 2 full stacks of Demonic Runes as of now to sustain full twisting on Brutallus.
#8486SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shipo
The command is something like /totemdestroy(totem nr) but it won't help with twisting due to the fact that it will simply kill the totem, not recall it. We dont get any mana back if we kill it .

Untill they change the destroy mechanic casting the new totem will still be better.

PS: found it after a few more google atempts.


/run DestroyTotem(#)

Replace # with 1-4 (1 being Earth, and so on).
#8487SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change
Say what?
#8488SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
On my shaman, I get a lot of mp5 mana regen from Water Shield and Mana Spring totem. Shamanistic Rage is a nice button to push. In a raid environment shadow priest vampirism or paladin JoW & BoW also help. As far as I know, none of these have changed with 2.4.

On my holy priest, the new int / spir synergy has given me a significant increase to spirit-based mana regen, both I5SR & OO5SR. This makes my /stopcasting macro even more fun and useful for long encounters. None of this was really relevant to my shaman, and as far as I know still isn't.

So unless I'm missing something, shaman (any spec) didn't lose any mana regen with the patch, but perhaps didn't gain as much as a priest, druid, or mage did. A relative loss, I suppose.
#8489SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
I guess he referring to the natural regen outside 5s rule. In that we might have lost i guess.

Blizzard hotfixed SSO exalted necklace. Can it still be dodged, parried and etc. or they fixed that too beside proc problem?
#8490SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
If you are outside the 5 second rule as an enhancement shaman, you're doing it wrong.
#8491SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If you are outside the 5 second rule as a shaman, you're doing it wrong.
I think it applies to all specs, really.
#8492SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
I know it's a crime to put hit rating gems in one's yellow sockets. But I feel I have reason to do so. Here's the Yo sim to back me up: *Clicky*. Linked to save space. I have the standard enhancement build with full hit talents.

The image shows the sim of my gear with inscribed in the three sockets I -could- put rigid (hit) in. Am I loosing my mind or is that a 3 in the hit rating weight?! Ran the sim several times and it came out with the same ratio every time.
#8493SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Leonina
As "standard build" you have +9% hit, so how can you only have 7% inputted on the calc?
#8494SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Tuili View Post
I know it's a crime to put hit rating gems in one's yellow sockets. But I feel I have reason to do so. Here's the Yo sim to back me up: *Clicky*. Linked to save space. I have the standard enhancement build with full hit talents.

The image shows the sim of my gear with inscribed in the three sockets I -could- put rigid (hit) in. Am I loosing my mind or is that a 3 in the hit rating weight?! Ran the sim several times and it came out with the same ratio every time.
Nothing surprising. You have to inputyou total hit% in the sim, including talents (your value should be 16,42% so). With 7,42% hit you wouldn't even be capped for special attacks, so your hit rating would be around twice as valuable
#8495SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Thank you. Can't believe I didn't realise that. Edit: I was for some reason under the impression that the sim used the "mouse over" values from the paper doll and had the 9% hit by default. Sorry for polluting the thread.
#8496SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhagok
There is no default 9% Hit, some people who still try an Elemental Subspec they only have 6% by themselves so you have to add it manually.
#8497SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• frmorrison
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Blizzard hotfixed SSO exalted necklace. Can it still be dodged, parried and etc. or they fixed that too beside proc problem?
The scyrer proc counts as a melee attack, so it can still be dodged, parried, missed, etc.
#8498SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Blazingwater
Originally Posted by Deetz View Post
Alright for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] i found out the proc rate, its about every 40-45seconds or so, and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] procs a lot more, about about every 30-35seconds or so (i spent a good 45min testing this out myself) And sorta in a way i think the expertise one is better because of the proc of gaining more hits, over the instant damage......but just for second thoughts what do you all think? :P
Do we yet have an EP value on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for Aldor? Seems to be of better use than the Scryer proc.
#8499SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Originally Posted by kelben View Post
... Oh i'm still needing a good place to test it... no more doc boom since I'm melee now.
Serve the servant. At 1ish % HP he gains an absorb all shield, only penetrable with a quest item. You can bash away for hours. Oh, and tell him I said hi.
#8500SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
Do we yet have an EP value on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for Aldor? Seems to be of better use than the Scryer proc.
I would have to guess it would be a ((200 * 10 * 0.9)/60) or 30EP for the aldor proc. This is, of course, figuring it's a 0.9 ppm.
#5161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ChaguraED
+damage coeffiecent

Grammy,

You have to recall that Shocks only get 42% of +damage added to them (they are treated as 1.5 seconds for coefficient purposes). Thus, the next shock would only receive about 14 damage.

It may not be that large of a tipping point.
#5162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
If you don't totem twist. Which, despite popular belief, is still incredibly viable and still isn't corrected after months of being acknowledged.
They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.

Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because people are completely oblivious to how totem range impacts the class. Assuming you are all lazy and defeatists about twisting any fight that involves mobility is going to be a hindrance for your WF totem. 4/5 in Hyjal and 4/9 in BT are fights that require high mobility, and the likelihood of being outside of melee range for <10 seconds is rather high. Your group will miss WF pulses and lose the buff for <5 seconds rather frequently; because, remember, an untalented WF totem has the range of a shock.
This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.

Originally Posted by rava View Post
.5 sec off of healing wave isn't anything spectacular, I use it on Azgalor when my pot/healthstone/bandage are on cooldown and getting the bigger heal off quicker is more important. Otherwise, I'd agree, it isn't great but it's T1, what do you eckspect.
No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P

Originally Posted by rava View Post
I really fail to see how this argument is still happening. Playstyles differ from person to person, and nobody is going to be won over save for random people that filter over through the WoW forums. DPS vs Utility, friends.
Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/23/07 at 7:57 PM.
#5163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.
Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P
#5164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Both specs have positives and negatives: I did a whole MH/BT run last week 2/45/14 and this week I am gonna to a whole MH/BT run 16/45/00, I will look at my parses on WWS and decide which is best for the raid and check feedback on totem ranges. Play style isn't that different to be honest in my opinion.

Running sims as I have found is great it gives indicative values for 'fluffy bunny land' and they are extremely useful; however, translation to the real game world of WoW is what makes this game interesting.

I like 2.3 its created a number of different things to try, so go try it I say. Its not as simple as right and wrong, better or worst its about what works for you and your role in the raid.
#5165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.



This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.



No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P



Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?
If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
#5166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Increased totem range is a convenience to the shaman, not the group. It means that I can drop my totems in a central location and they're in the correct spot for every portion of an encounter. This means on Hyjal Trash I can drop them and cover the AoE packs as well as the CCd Necros as the melee group moves from Necros to Aboms/Ghouls/Spiders. On BT trash, same thing. On Akama it means that I can drop my totems in the center of the platform and the cover the entire platform as we move around it. Same thing on Hydross, Vashj, Kael, etc etc. It saves me the hassle of realizing that we've moved away from the totems and having to redrop.
#5167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
beetlejuice
I just want to mention, that even when you maximize the damage output of your shocks with talents from elemental tree, it won't really affect your damage output alot, in overall raid fights.
Reasons for this are

Fights where you are trigger happy are really really few. If there was a way to see in wwstats how often you kept a shock rotation up while dpsing you would see that shock rotation is really much less than the time you were actualy dpsing. Shocks are not covered by the threat reduction enhancement talent, its the first thing you stop doing if you are going near threat cap, along stormstrike. (ie bloodboil)

And for these Elemental talents you will lose :

1. 30 yard totems. (Fear will outrange tremor totem, oops cancel that, tremor is always 30yard totem). Grounding totem won't cover you that much in situations where you are running towards a target. Your enhancement buffing totems (strength , windfury, grace of air ) wont cover a big space and when your group is splited for raid reasons some might not get the benefits from them.

2. Nature's Guidance. 3% Hit rating for spells!! and melee hits. Oh yes, did you forget that? Nature's guidance gives you 3% hit in spells too, i am reaaally so curious to see how many shocks will get resisted because you won't have this talent anymore. Don't think this is minimal, i don't want to be you when you will get 2 earthshocks resisted in a row, when you are at illidari council and trying to interrupt divine wraths or when you happen to be the only melee against a necromancer in trash packs of Mt Hyjal :/. I can't say if 3% spell hit rating is more prefered from 5% extra damage in shocks, but considering that earthshocks are used in raids for interrupt purposes too, you need to have that 3% spell hit rating.

Becoming dps machine is one thing, remembering the reason raids created a spot for enhancement shamans is another .

Last edited by beetlejuice : 11/23/07 at 9:35 PM.
#5168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Tremor Totem is, and has always been, 30 yard without talents.
#5169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.
#5170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by panny View Post
I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.
I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.
#5171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0T.K.
Help with helms

Some advices in here, please:

T6 helm [Skyshatter Cover] sums 229,25 AEP pts with my ratings. Not adding the meta

[Grimgrin Faceguard] sums 256,40 AEP pts using normal blue gems.

My doubt is, would the meta gem surpass that dif between them and, if not, would be worth to use epic gems on the ZA helm as i would only trade it with [Forest Prowler's Helm] or later Cursed Vision itself?

We currently at RoS at BT and already downed Archimonde at Hyjal, but i couldn't get T5 as it never dropped and so i'm still stuck with T4 helm.
#5172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.
Ay, there is -- and if you'd read my post, you'd have seen it.

Natures Guidance = Concussion + Reverberation
1.03 white + 1.03 shock = white + 1.26 shock
1.03 white - white = 1.26 shock - 1.03 shock
.03 white = .23 shock
white = 7.7 shock

When your percentage of damage from white melee is more than 7.7 times that of shocks, nature's guidance will provide more overall damage than concussion and reverberation.

This should be very hard to achieve unless you aren't using MQ or stack the hell out of hit rating and crit. (It's actually higher because I am too lazy to solve for the third variable of totem damage, though I am not so lazy that I don't drop them).

But again -- are we talking raid utility or max dps? If it's max dps, drop the hell out of enhanced weapon totems and the whole resto tree and push hard into the elemental tree. If it's raid utility, sigh at the loss of 2-5% potential damage and consider the 3 points in NG a consolation for being nice to your raid and improving your totem range.

Oh, and don't knock the .5s big heal reduction. Will it stop a wipe? Maybe not -- though I'm able to get two big heals off after a Ground Slam before getting Stoned, something I doubt I could without the extra 1s of lag time, and that has kept up our rogue who just *loves* to hang out in cave ins.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/24/07 at 12:50 AM.
#5173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
Link the parse or shut up.
#5174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.
I guess it depends on if you are fighting a mob that is constantly casting spells or a mob that does mostly melee attacks. But no, I've never seen a 1500 DPS situation outside of Teron Gorefiend. Show me your AP/Crit/Hit that gives you 1500 DPS on Yo!s simulator, please.
#5175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rob
Resto subspec:
3% to ~45% of damage and 86/83 - 1 = 3.6% to ~15% of damage ==> 1.35%+0.542% = 1.89% damage increase
30 yard totems
40 minute ankh or -25% mana cost on totems

Elemental subspec
1/6*105%*15% of damage = 2.625% damage increase
5 sec CD on earth/frost shock (some utility)
requires use of more GCDs -- damage increase only holds true if you are shocking perfectly

Elemental gives you a 102.625/101.89 - 1 = 0.72% maximum theoretical DPS increase under optimal circumstances. (In other words, if you're 1500 DPS as resto, you'd be 1511 DPS as elemental with perfect play.) You gain some PvP utility of being able to shock more frequently, but lose the PvE utility offered by increased totem range. You will be on GCD more often and I doubt that anyone will see an actual damage increase moving to elemental from restoration, period. It requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting. I do feel that you can now make a case for elemental as a viable alternative, but it's not going to be a DPS improvement -- it's a change of pace, at best.
#5176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sebudai
Restoration vs. Elemental: The Final Showdown

Here's my attempt at a mathematical comparison between the two specs dps-wise. I will be basing all of the following math off of my own statistics.

Not counting things like Improved Hunter's Mark or Expose Weakness, my raid buffed attack power is about 3035. So Mental Quickness is giving me about +910 spell damage. As far as I know Flame Shock is still benefiting from about 61% of our spell damage, Earth Shock about 43%, and each tick of Searing Totem about 17%. If these numbers are incorrect, please let me know. I'll also be using Yo's! simulator to determine the amount of melee dps I would lose by not having Nature's Guidance. Hopefully it is accurate.

Enhancement/Restoration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-14% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.86 = 1586~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
-14% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*0.86 = 1155~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.83 = 241~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Restoration spec: 325~ DPS.

---

Enhancement/Elemental: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.05*0.83 = 1608~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*1.05*0.83 = 1170~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+15% from Call of Flame.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.15*0.83 = 277~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Elemental spec: 389~ DPS.

---

Net differences between the two specs after factoring in the melee DPS gained from Nature's Guidance: Improved Healing Wave, Improved Reincarnation, Totemic Focus, and Totemic Mastery vs. Elemental Warding and 35~ DPS.

Other factors:

All of this math assumes the player is keeping Searing Totem up 100% of the time and shocking immediately on every cooldown. Not meeting these conditions certainly favors the Restoration spec.

I did not account for crits. Considering our low crit rate, the fact that Flame Shock crits affect less than half of the spells total damage, and our lack of Elemental Fury, I don't think this changes the math in any major way. But feel free to figure that out on your own and prove me wrong.

Totemic Focus is a requirement for totem twisting on a lot of encounters, even after the patch. If you don't totem twist, then perhaps elemental spec is the correct choice for you. If you totem twist, restoration is the correct choice in my opinion.

Gear has a large affect on these numbers. My math based off of my own statistics can give you a decent idea of the differences between the two specs, but if you want to be hardcore, figure it out based off of your own statistics.
#5177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
#5178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
You will be on GCD ... it requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting.
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.

Anyhow, my point in raising these questions was to get a cogent set of the arguments AGAINST what is from a mathematical perspective justifiable.

It's kind of like the 2.6.2 changes to Water Shield. On paper, you're not gaining anything...but nobody in the real world is refreshing water shields exactly as they pop, there's too much other stuff to worry about.
#5179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 1:42 AM.
#5180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
#5181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
No one said to not drop WF totem for your group. The point is that you think the extra 10 yards on your totems will increase your groups damage by more than you could increase your own damage by going a 16/45/0 build. As I pointed out, if the group has to move out of range of your totems, they aren't doing any DPS anyway so it really doesn't matter in 90%+ of the fights.
#5182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?

Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/24/07 at 3:41 AM.
#5183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- including everyone else in the party might provide benefits equal to 10% or more of your DPS.

On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that GCDs are not problematic, you're completely ignoring that the theoretical DPS increase from going Elemental for 5 second shocks will greatly inhibit your ability to totem twist.

If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. Back-of-the-napkin math is more than adequate to show this. Trying to come up with a rotation for elemental with totem twisting requires the following:
0.0-WF
1.5-GoA
3.0-FS
4.5-SS
8.0-ES
9.5-WF
This should make it clear that if your latency plus reaction time is greater than 100ms, you will not achieve the theoretical gains that elemental offers. (Not to mention every minute you must refresh Searing, and every two minutes you must use SR, trinkets, and refresh SoE/Mana Spring, and probably pop a mana pot to keep up with the twisting+shock spam...)

I think that it's not hard to agree that the absolute best min-max way to go is totem twisting with a resto subspec. On the other hand, if you're like me, and only totem twist occasionally because you find it too hard to focus on your surroundings, maybe Elemental is worth considering... but for me, it's not, because that 0.7% DPS isn't worth it to lose things like imp ankh and imp totem range. I can honestly see speccing Elemental for PvP -- a reduced cooldown on Earth and Frost Shocks would be useful there -- but it's just not the best option for raiding.

Last edited by Rob : 11/24/07 at 3:44 AM.
#5184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- not everyone else in the party. Going for 5 second shocks will further inhibit your ability to totem twist. If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. If you just want to play a more relaxed version of the game, I still suggest resto, since you don't have to be as worried about redropping totems... Elemental, in my opinion, only has a place in a PvP build.
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
#5185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ahindwe
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
#5186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.

Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you even think this through? Do you understand how high this number would be if what you were saying was correct?

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P
Do you understand that a fully debuffed boss has half that amount of armor or less in a raiding environment? Also, Yo's! simulator doesn't account for some things like multiple Bloodlusts, Expose Weakness, Improved Hunter's Mark etc.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 3:51 AM.
#5187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Ahindwe View Post
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
I assumed he was telling the truth and calculated the DPS time off of his numbers. Its everyone elses numbers that don't add up! For instance, going off of Retros damage, who DPSed the whole fight, it actually lasted 159 seconds. If he was present for 92% of that time, he would have dpsed for 146 seconds, while it only shows 142 or 90% DPS time. Now look at Arkadus, he was DPSing 98% of the fight for 1614 DPS. 98% of 159 seconds is 156 seconds, and that means he should have done ~251k, but he in fact did ~264k. Waaaaay to noisy for my liking.
#5188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rob
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
No -- I haven't totem twisted since the patch, and I only twisted before when I was threat-capped and needed TA. But what does that have to do with anything? If we're answering the question "How can I get the absolute maximum raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and totem twist. If we're answering the question "What is the easiest way to do respectable raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and don't totem twist. Enhance/Elemental gives you more DPS than Enhance/Resto without totem twisting, but at the cost of increased complexity and decreased utility, when you could have just stayed Enhance/Resto and totem twisted if you didn't mind the extra complexity.
#5189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.
And if I only attacked when my SS cooldown was up, I am sure I could inflate my numbers a bit too. Still, things do not add up, but I am willing to let it slide. My guild does not use WWS anymore, so I generally rely on my violation numbers. I've always felt that DPS is damage done over the course of the entire fight, not just the times I'm actually damaging so my own 1050 DPS figure is probably lower than what I am doing by your standards~
#5190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sebudai
I've edited my reply to you above. I'd also like to add that yes, I really only did shock 15 times on Teron. Imagine how high that dps number would be if I was a better player.
#5371SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Kaels View Post
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?
It looks like you're logged out with raid buffs, but I don't see salvation. If you only get one blessing, make it salvation.
#5372SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Regardless of whether you notice it or not its still a 15% increase in the amount of threat you can safely generate.

Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.

Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
#5373SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kaels
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Regardless of whether you notice it or not its still a 15% increase in the amount of threat you can safely generate.

Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.
.
Thanks for the help. I always have salvation and try to kept the same shock rotations, I saw a very very slight difference but I guess it was just me.

I've been seeing the same numbers Malan on my WF crits when the proc is up.
#5374SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rodandwa
Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.
Speaking of big numbers and summing WF damage, does anyone know of a mod that will total up your attack + WF damage in the combat log? Ideally would do so for Stormstrike and Windfury. Something like:

You hit mob for 300.
Your Windfury Attack crits mob for 1000.
Your Windfury Attack hits mob for 500.
Your total attack hits mob for 1800.
#5375SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kletha
Originally Posted by Rodandwa View Post
Speaking of big numbers and summing WF damage, does anyone know of a mod that will total up your attack + WF damage in the combat log? Something like:

You hit mob for 300.
Your Windfury Attack crits mob for 1000.
Your Windfury Attack hits mob for 500.
Your total attack hits mob for 1800.
WindfuryFU will do that for you. It also prints it on the screen.

Also, one thing that I've noticed is that if I'm not attacking and I start attacking with SS usually the OH procs WF if it procs from SS whereas if I first toggle attack and then immieatly after use SS then MH usually procs WF.

I have no evidence for this but it seems like this to me. Of course I do this in melee range in both cases and I'm not using the /startattack in SS macro.

Anyone noticed this or have any ideas? Will /startattack macro "solve" this for me? Or am I just paranoid?
#5376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
I believe someone had asked for a mod awhile back that would let them monitor their spell damage? Found this on WoWace forums today.
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/PowerDisplay
#5377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Helisstra
I have a little question, maybe someone else aldready ask it but i don't want to read all 216 pages and on the first post, the answer is not there...

Which enchant should we put on ring? 4 all stats or 2 weapon dmg?

Thx

Last edited by Helisstra : 12/03/07 at 12:36 PM.
#5378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Amazingly, using the "Search this thread" function in the upper right with the terms "enchant ring damage stats" yields many applicable results, including one that directly answers your question. I will decline linking it for you, "Feed a man a fish..." and all that jazz you know.
#5379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Thebeat
Malan are you going to try for some armor penetration gear to go along with the enchant or just sticking to BT/Hyjal gear? I'm thinking of getting the hibernation chest piece but I don't have a weapon that I want to put executioner on (hopefully that'll change soon since we just got into hyjal) and everyone seems to say that executioner gets better with some armor pen gear.
#5380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
I'd like to get some more Armor Penetration but all the gear I've looked at is numerically inferior to stuff without that stat. Most of the cool stuff with haste and Armor Penetration lack sockets for one thing.
#5381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Syphon Eating Shadow debuffs

Got locks complaining Syphon is eating debuffs...apparantly its on Ej somewhere but I can't find it.

Anyone got any ideas or confirmation if its true?

Or are they dropping do you thing to the limit?

Thanks
#5382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Originally Posted by Boro View Post
Got locks complaining Syphon is eating debuffs...apparantly its on Ej somewhere but I can't find it.

Anyone got any ideas or confirmation if its true?

Or are they dropping do you thing to the limit?

Thanks
You know you can easily test this with a warlock, yourself, and a mob all in about 5 minutes or less, right?
#5383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Yes I know Malan but i am in Hyjal atm so just thought i would check :-) will let you know though
#5384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Syphon applies a buff to yourself only. It acts more like flurry than any of our other mechanics.

I am not sure I understand how it can be knocking off warlock debuffs. If there is any data to support this I would be curious to learn more.
#5385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
I'm sure he means that the warlocks are saying its eating the Improved ShadowBolt debuff. Not really knocking a debuff off, just eating a charge. Again, not hard to test though, even in the middle of Hyjal. Just have the warlock and you go off and make merry with a mob that nobody else is on for a few moments.
#5731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
Sounds like a problem with how Enhancer imports the data. Shouldn't really matter though...gear comparisons are still valid, all the values are just 10x what they normally would be :P
#5732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Toots Hepcat
Well, it does matter because I'm pretty sure Enhancer hard-codes the values for certain procs as well as gem slots.
#5733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Duh...wasn't thinking about those. In any case, it's not hard to go into the Enhancer config and just move the decimals over.
#5734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
It is not the bug with enhancer it is time gap between us not simultaniously updating utilities.
MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. You are right. EP value is for rating though.
#5735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Yo, seems you forgot to set the Ashtongue trinket proc rate to 2.3 values, at least, the Forensic Report gives me a 90% uptime on it Otherwise, great work on the sim, keep it up.
#5736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Karok(EU)
Confirmed, 88% uptime here, ran a 15k hour sim.
Thanks for the update Yo!

Some really really minor things:

Is 10 shocks/2 minutes realistic? Chain shocking on a static npc (max potential dps) we can asume a near-perfect rotation bearing in mind interference of SS cooldowns) would this number not be closer to ~15 (10 shocks/min as perfect rotation)

Would it be possible to get a visual on the stonebreaker's totem proc rate as you did with the trinkets?

Typos: Procs & stuff tab: "Average number of shocks...

(E): Be gone quote!

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 7:47 PM.
#5737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shokkina
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 6:40 PM.
#5738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Shokkina View Post
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
#5739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shokkina
Originally Posted by rava View Post
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
I did another test with 10000 hours. Almost same result. I don't think changing the number of shocks will make a huge difference anyway(i try to time my totem replacements to favor my shock rotation, preferring only stormstrike to a shock in almost any situation)

Oh and i got agility(and crit rating) AP: 0 (yes ZERO). I think that means there is a problem here...

Other strange things on this run:
forensic report: normal strikes(for WF, ss, and white damage): 0
crit strikes for WF and SS: 0.944(that means 94% crit right?)

I still think that is something wrong here...

Anyway thanks for the fast reply

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 7:04 PM.
#5740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shokkina
Nevermind i realized now that befor my 31.38 crit % where other numbers so i did input something like 2531% crit O_o
What a noob mistake, but in the crit field(since it is short) i did not manage to see thos numbers :|
Sorry for such a noob question then :|
#5741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Yah I was gonna say that it sounded like you put some insanely high values in there someplace.
#5742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I was hoping someone could explain to me why upgrading my weapons would be a DPS downgrade, according to Yo!'s sim.

Currently weilding Dragonstrike+Merc Pummeler

According to the sim if I upgraded to 2x Syphon of the Nathrezim, it would be a 14 DPS nerf.

Rising Tide + Syphon is not looking too good either, as a 15 DPS downgrade.

(Yes, I changed the stats gained according for each weapon changed and the Dragonstrike selection on the "Procs & stuff" page.)

I was really looking forward to upgrading my weapons to these, and thought they would really increase my damage "cap" since the rest of my gear isn't too shabby, I thought my weapons were holding me back, but I just don't know why it's a downgrade and not a huge upgrade, does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
#5743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
#5744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rob
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
Someone on the previous page just said this to be the case, so that's probably why. (Make sure you are doing 10k hour sims.)
#5745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
I realise that there can be small differences when re-running the sim, but I was expecting to see a large dps increase, but it's a small decrease, if I ran it many times it would fluctuate slightly between 1-10 dps probably, i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is, but I can't imagine it coming out as an increase.

I guess what the poster above me said could be the culprit, is there any modelling on the Dragonstrike proc that Yo! can update the sim to correct it, so it's not valued so (incorrectly?) high?
#5746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Karok(EU)
Well, 10k+ is advised for a reason, the longer it runs the bigger the data pool to get the stats from. I would really suggest just running it at 10k or more a couple of times and compare the results. Grab a book/movie or smash some pvp face while waiting for the sim to complete.

Edit: Malan how are the T6 item values comming along? Still missing on the First post ;-)

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 10:15 PM.
#5747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is,
When I do my personal EP values after getting new gear I run 10x 10,000 hours and then average them. Yah it takes awhile but you get some crazy outliers sometimes if you don't do that. I just run it at work while I'm doing other stuff.
#5748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
#5749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?

Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
#5750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
Joy - I add trinketed Battleshout to my stats but thats the only one I use, I don't bother with buffs that aren't in my party. You certain *can* add them but it might start skewing your stats a bit oddly.

Paradox - 10k is just a nice large number, I sometimes have run 20k to see if the numbers are stable. As for Kings, if you dont' put it in the Sim itself you'll end up with lower EP values of Str/Agi compared to to the non scaling stats, which could tip one item in favor of another if they were close.
#5751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rob
Originally Posted by Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?
10k is just the standard we use in this thread. Yo! suggested a while back in it using 10k hours anytime you calculate EPs. 1k is the minimum for somewhat reliable results but will still vary from run to run. 10k is stable from run to run.
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
You need to add the impact of BoK to your AP and Crit. Since Yo's sim doesn't have fields for STR and AGI, you must add 0.2*STR to AP and AGI/250 to crit %.
#5752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
Ok, say i have 3 weapons.

60 dps, 2.5 spd (A)
62 dps, 2.3 spd (B)
85 dps, 1.8 spd (C)


Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.)

I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
#5753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
#5754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:

swords rogue
daggers rogue
mm hunter
bm hunter

Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal)

a) GoA
b) WF
c) who cares?

In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party
#5755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it.
The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on.

You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues.
I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting.
#5756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sebudai
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
#5757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by alexandertheti View Post
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
Windfury always outperforms Flametongue on your main hand weapon and you should never have a dagger there. Windfury almost always outperforms Flametongue on your off hand weapon (you'd need huge amounts of AP and a faster-than-1.8s dagger to change that).

I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded.

Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 10:16 AM. Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks.
#5758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
@Toots

I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS.

As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges.

Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time.
#5759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
#5760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draegan
Armory Links and/or WWS Links

I'm looking for Armory and WWS links for Heroic/T4 Geared enhancement Shamans and T5 Geared enhancement Shamans for comparison.

If anyone could take the time to PM your own links, I'd appreciate it. Thank you in advance.
#6046SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Toots Hepcat
Grzzt -- you have encountered my only problem with Yo's sim, which is that it requires Java 1.6. (Seems silly to me; shouldn't take much effort to make it compatible with 1.5 but it's not my code).

Java 1.6 is available in beta for Mac, but I have yet to get it to work correctly under 10.5 (possibly because I haven't reboot since the 10.5.1 update). So I run it under Firefox for windows on a machine with more java runtimes than you can shake a stick at, including the latest 1.6.

The browser you run it on is of little consequence.
#6047SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dekkan
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake.
Is this because of the proc on Syphon? I rate S2 weapons higher than Syphon in both the MH and the OH despite them being less weapon DPS, but I don't give any value to the Syphon proc because I'm not sure how to rate it.
#6048SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I really don´t think you have to rate the proc to see them being far superior, just run Yo´s Sim and you will see. It was no discussion for me at all and btw the stat changes aren´t that great anyway, you are gaining 20 AP per weapon with SON´s and are loosing 10 hit and 19 crit, which should be about 45 AEP so it´s 25 AEP more on the S2 wepons ... that should be easily surpassable with the greater damage and slower speed
#6049SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Originally Posted by Dekkan View Post
Is this because of the proc on Syphon? I rate S2 weapons higher than Syphon in both the MH and the OH despite them being less weapon DPS, but I don't give any value to the Syphon proc because I'm not sure how to rate it.
The proc is just for kicks I guess. It did like 5,000 dmg over a full hyjal clear I think, its not a big deal. The syphons and rising tide have higher DPS though, raising the average damage done.
#6050SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tambard
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
I am running around with 8k UB hp at the moment & I am doing fine in end game content. But, I keep my pvp gear near me to switch the a few pieces when I need a bit more stamina on certin boss fights.. namely Archie/Council where I hit 10k UB easily.

Like our raid leader always says : "A Dead DPS is no DPS".
Yeah, I don't PvP much, but I picked up T6 for stam on fights like Council and such (and because the items I'm hoping for never drop).
#6051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I run at 10k health buffed and have no problems in T6 content. Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake. Boneweave girdle is hunter gear, skip it and use something like the Shadow Walkers Cord.
[Shadow-walker's Cord] is for me actually one EP better than [Belt of Deep Shadow] beside the stamina gain, i can't spend my dkp on this.
Boneweave is better than Don Alejandro's by a remarkable margin. Only vashj could compete (and beat it).

I won't keep my S2 weapon if i'm able to pick up a syphon, but picking up all items without stamina would bring me into some serious problems.
Showing up that's our raid is lacking campheal won't fix my the problem for me.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Also, you're using the Greater Than symbol like an arrow. It doesn't do that. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] > [Softstep Boots of Tracking] to me means "Nyn'jah's are better than the Softstep."
Ahh, should be "Upgrading from x to y". An arrow like -> would have been better, i guess.
#6052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0death_Phobos
Something i would like to see on the Main Page

-New Trinket AEP Ranking using T6 Values
-New Meta Gem AEP using T6 Values
-A Final Sentence/decision, at wich point, or if ever Executioner > Mungo
#6053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gorsameth
Originally Posted by death_Phobos View Post
-New Trinket AEP Ranking using T6 Values
Dont think anything changed at all in the trinkets with regards to which is better

Originally Posted by death_Phobos View Post
-New Meta Gem AEP using T6 Values
RED is still the best you can have

Originally Posted by death_Phobos View Post
-A Final Sentence/decision, at wich point, or if ever Executioner > Mungo
Dont think there was ever a conclusive answer to this question aside from the idea that they are just as good.[/quote]
#6054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I picked up a Rising Tide the other day (finally \o/) and I'll be running some tests with double executioner. I'm pretty sure one Executioner is better than Mongoose/Mongoose in t6 values, but I haven't seen any conclusion on stacking Executioner. Raiding is a bit slow due to backflagging some trials this week, so haven't done Teron yet (woo!).

Trinketwise, it remains the same order for me with my AEP values. Although I dislike on use trinkets, so I'll stick with my Tsunami Talisman (or Madness if we get enough of them -.-).
#6055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
I'm pretty sure one Executioner is better than Mongoose/Mongoose in t6 values
Got any numbers to prove that ? <== Itching to do something new.
#6056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by gorsameth View Post
Dont think anything changed at all in the trinkets with regards to which is better
It's not true. For me the top4 is DST, Madness, Tsunami, Berserker's Call.
#6057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Other Enhhant spots

Besides what is covered in the first post, What Enchants should I get for
Bracers, chest, cloak, gloves, ring? TY in advance.
#6058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• promdates
Originally Posted by Ankha View Post
Besides what is covered in the first post, What Enchants should I get for
Bracers, chest, cloak, gloves, ring? TY in advance.
It would seem like the best options would be:

Bracer - +12 Strength
Chest - +6 stats
Cloak - +12 Agility / -2% Threat (totally dependant on your playstyle and the tanks that you're with)
Gloves - +15 Strength
Ring - +4 Stats (a lot of discussion in the past week or so about this, it seems most people prefer 4 stats over 2 weapon dmg)
#6059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rudel
Just a quick question here, bear with me, I'm fairly new to all the Theorycrafting even though I've been playing for years. Been using Yo's to compare different gear this morning and it's giving me negative weights for my crit and agility. Running a 28.31 crit right now, not sure if the negative results would be correct weight values, or if the simulator is buggin out on me. Is it possible that I have too much crit?
#6060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Disquette
Rudel, can you post a screenshot of the input screen on the sim that you use? Yo! might be altering the sim, or you might have some odd data in there.
#6436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Farstrider
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard] is only 2 nethers, not 4, so pretty achievable in an afternoon if you go with a guild group. Alternatively they are probably around 1,000-1,200 gold these days - they have been cheapened by the new badge loot alternatives.
#6437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithlin
Shadowprowlers is also a relatively small upgrade from the S1 Galdiator chest for its cost in time/money.
I actually have all the mats for a Shadowprowler's Chest but cant bring myself to craft and enchant it for what works out as around a 30EP gain with my current weightings.
#6438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skizzilini
Originally Posted by Poprostu View Post
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?

Edit: I guess this post was deleted, but my question still remains.
#6439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Skizzilini View Post
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
#6440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.
I pretty much follow this as well. Once a shamy hits enough of a mana pool to be able to sustain twisting until SR is back up, there is 0 need for int or mana/5 on gear. Sure the Souls leather gloves have 3 more agi then fists, but enhance does need a decent mana pool which depending on how much leather is used, can be a pain.

As said, for me Int and Stam are both tie-breakers in choosing gear. I wont use them in the initial calculations, but they help when theres a tiny EAP difference between 2 pieces of gear.
#6441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Wraithlin View Post
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
#6442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Loot Rank
#6443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Actually, using entry level EP values will give you pretty much the same set of good gear as using end game EP values. Barring maybe one or two items. It really doesn't change that much
#6444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Ah. Well, further proof of my lack of enhance knowledge.
#6445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Oprahwinfury
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
#6446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Iku
Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury View Post
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
I'm not that familiar with lootrank.com, but you should get an accurate result if you subtract (<expertise weight> * <unused expertise rating part>) from the specific item, in this case that would be 3.52 * 0.57, so subtract about 2 EP from the item value.
#6447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ikillyouheal
I just ran the sim for my stats again, and it seems like I got some really high numbers for hit.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers

Seems like t5 Gloves are the best ones in the game for me at the moment.

I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
#6448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Iku
The T5 enhancement glove score on Thottbot seems bugged and is far too high.
#6449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sebudai
I don't think 1500 hours is enough. I get some pretty big swings running it for 10,000 hours.
#6450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
As has already been said, the "best" items are going to come out the same no matter what point you're at in gear progression, but the "better" items along the way may change with your EP fluctuations. Anyway, you can just look at the list Sebudai posted a few pages back and/or any of the LootRank links recently posted to get a list of the "best" for everything besides trinkets and weapons, which are addressed in the first post.
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
As has been said, the T5 glove score on Thottbot is bugged. For this and other reasons, I use LootRank instead. To get more accurate values, I would honestly recommend making an Excel spreadsheet, and running the sim 5 times for 10k hours each. Put the values from each trial into Excel and average them.
#6631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
Does that make sense?
I think it does. Well, here is my Doh! moment. I did not know a WF proc didn't consume a Flurry token.
#6632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithlin
Is it strange that Yo's sim is telling me hit rating is now worth as much to me as agility ?
(Both were 1.38, crit was 1.43)
#6633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
As always, my recommendation is to do multiple sim runs at 10,000 hours and then average them before making any conclusions about the EP values. I've seen some pretty crazy outliers but given enough runs they eventually settle at a more reasonable point.
#6634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
I think it does. Well, here is my Doh! moment. I did not know a WF proc didn't consume a Flurry token.
yah, the easiest way to get the concept, imo, is to imagine a weapon with a 10 sec timer compared to a weapon with a 1.0 swing timer, and interpolate.

On average with a 10 sec weapon, you have 1 + 1 + .64 = 2.64 attacks / 10 sec, only 1 of which can consume a flurry charge. (SS + Auto +Expected#ofWF = 2.64)

I'm not going to post the backup here, but with a 1.0 speed weapon, instead of having a 1:2.64 ratio, you have roughly 10:15 consuming to producing ratio.

That is
10 speed weapon ~ 38% of attacks can consume a charge
1.0 speed weapon ~ 67% of attacks can consume a charge
#6635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Actually, disquette if you want to write a slightly longer rationale for that I'll include it in a "why slow weapons are better" section.
#6636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
That doesn't negate the fact rogues can feint (LOL) and vanish to remove their threat, we have a battle anhk? Ret pallies are still the outlier on threat, but I'm always way up on our threat meter.

Malan, does that intro work for you or do you want some reworking?
#6637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jamor
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
On top of doing more damage SS has chance to proc WF, flurry, on-hit trinkets etc...
Waiting for WF cooldown is not related to the perfect-rotation graph that was being discussed.
If you want to factor that methodic in - SS and shock won't overlap during WF cooldown in the first place because you are waiting with SS so the choice is limited to shock.
If you have to make a choice outside WF cooldown - SS is better.
What "same holds here" is here?
There is no point in upkeeping 24 shocks per 2 min by delaying SSs.
Although I agree with prioritizing SS over a shock, one thing that was overlooked in this is that a shock can also proc (and will very often) proc the Stonebreaker's for an extra 110 AP.
#6638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
The 3 second cooldown on WF also makes slower weapons better concerning flurry. The reason for this is the ratio between hits that consume flurry charges to those that do not. Faster your weapon, the more hits that will consume flurry while the 3 sec cooldown causes WF (which does not consume flurry) hits to grow a lot slower. 2.6->1.3 weapon would doube white hits, but while number of WF's probably will grow it would be a lot less than 2x growth due to lot of new white hits would be inside 3 second rule.

Is that sufficient?
#6639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Hello beloved Enhance Shamans,

I'm a warrior. Since our Flurry works the same way I would like to hear your opinion, because it would be helpful for me. Your thread has ten times more views .
I claim that "Flurry is an aura, that you gain after a crit and loose after three autoattacks". It is refreshable.
Relevant posts http://elitistjerks.com/621396-post518.html and http://elitistjerks.com/621618-post522.html
Can anyone confirm or disprove this? I'm pretty sure I'm right.
#6640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kadah
Many apologies if this has been asked before, I read these fourms often and try not to post intill I have some valid reason, anyway on to the question. Has anyone seen a breakdown for Syphon versus ISB and the direct damage breakdown? I have just recieved the first non ninja'd syphon in my guild and have put my warlocks into a bit of an uproar. I have searched for any direct corelation for it versus shadow damage and the direct results of the loss of damage and if there is a topic it isnt one I have found. Does one exsist and can anyone help me find it?

Thank you for your time with this.
Kadah Earthen Ring
#6641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aett
Originally Posted by Kadah View Post
Many apologies if this has been asked before, I read these fourms often and try not to post intill I have some valid reason, anyway on to the question. Has anyone seen a breakdown for Syphon versus ISB and the direct damage breakdown? I have just recieved the first non ninja'd syphon in my guild and have put my warlocks into a bit of an uproar. I have searched for any direct corelation for it versus shadow damage and the direct results of the loss of damage and if there is a topic it isnt one I have found. Does one exsist and can anyone help me find it?

Thank you for your time with this.
Kadah Earthen Ring
Don't sign and use the search feature before asking questions.

A quick search with the feature in the upper right of the screen called "Search this Thread" for "Syphon Shadowbolt" got me what I think you're looking for:
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
#6642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
I claim that "Flurry is an aura, that you gain after a crit and loose after three autoattacks". It is refreshable.
How is that different from what the tooltip says other than not losing charges on misses/etc. (which seems incredibly easy to test)?
#6643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
How is that different from what the tooltip says other than not losing charges on misses/etc. (which seems incredibly easy to test)?
Same speed weapons always hitting together for example, effectively providing 4 charges.
Instantcrits making Flurry less efficient.
#6644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Same speed weapons don't provide 4 charges on their own per se (that's what I find the data implies). Weapons that hit within a fraction of a second of each other, regardless of their paperdoll weapon speed, seem to get extra flurry charges. In that respect, flurry does seem to work like an aura.

However, with the search function (I actually like google's a lot better than the one in EJ.com), you can find a whole thread about this topic. I haven't done any testing or theorizing for months, so feel free to expand the data set if you'd like.

http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12720-m...s_flurry_work/

Maybe I'll actually load WoW again and test some more, now that I have a different internet connection (and possibly a more stable ping).
#6645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shinanigans
Error in writing -- Should be Vengeful not Merciless.

Current best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]).

Thanks.
#6646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Corrected, no idea how that got left in.
#6647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
The 3 second cooldown on WF also makes slower weapons better concerning flurry. The reason for this is the ratio between hits that consume flurry charges to those that do not. Faster your weapon, the more hits that will consume flurry while the 3 sec cooldown causes WF (which does not consume flurry) hits to grow a lot slower. 2.6->1.3 weapon would doube white hits, but while number of WF's probably will grow it would be a lot less than 2x growth due to lot of new white hits would be inside 3 second rule.

Is that sufficient?
It's getting there, but it should include stormstrike also, as that's 2 more attacks per 10 sec that can proc but not consume flurry.

Another reason that slower weapons do higher dps, ceteris paribus, than faster weapons is the effect that weapon speed has on the ratio of yellow attacks to white attacks. Both yellow and white crits can proc/refresh flurry, but only white attacks consume them. It stands to reason (and can be seen in sims) that because slower weapons have a higher ratio of yellow to white attacks than fast weapons, there will be a higher % of flurry granting to flurry consuming attacks, and thus a higher flurry uptime ratio.

The reason that slower weapons have a higher yellow to white attack ratio comes from 2 primary sources. First, with the three second cooldown on windfury, with a faster weapon more white attacks will be happening within the window when windfury (a yellow attack) cannot happen. Secondly, Stormstrike will happen 10 seconds regardless of weaponspeed. It is fairly obvious that the ratio of Stormstrikes to white attacks increases as weaponspeed increases.

I'd do something like the above quote. But, I'm very longwinded, admittedly, and something simpler can probably convey the same amount of information in fewer words (perhaps altering Atren's attempt just a little to include Stormstrike)
#6648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
However, with the search function (I actually like google's a lot better than the one in EJ.com), you can find a whole thread about this topic. I haven't done any testing or theorizing for months, so feel free to expand the data set if you'd like.

http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12720-m...s_flurry_work/
I've read the whole thread before I even started testing. My results are just different from what the guys in the thread got.
They think that Flurry acts like a buff for a whole swing.
#6649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.
#6650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
I've read the whole thread before I even started testing. My results are just different from what the guys in the thread got.
They think that Flurry acts like a buff for a whole swing.

Hm. You stated you saw this, but I couldn't find the data points. Can I have the combat logs? I'd love to add new data, especially with your consistent low ping, to the thread.
#6651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
#6652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.
So why does the Talon beat Syphon at my gear level?(T6) I'd be really curious to see if someone can post their stats where Syphon ever comes out on top in the sim. Also the stat differences you list in your post are wrong.
#6653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
Time to stock up on [Enscribed Fire Opal] and [Shifting Tanzanite].

EFO > Inscribed Noble Topaz already. EFO > BLR if your value for crit is greater than 1.65.

(Given their awful drop percentage, and also how annoying Mana Tombs is, I doubt I'll be stacking either one).
#6654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
The oddball str/agi Coilfang gem will be best for blue sockets(though it already was), don't think anything else would change.
#6655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
#6656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
Ok, but those stats corrected would show it not losing, which is right. I'm just trying to figure out why something that performs better in the sim(which we base everything off) and more people have access to is being passed off as second class. The stats you listed aren't quite right for RT either and also neglect to take weapon speed into account, which is a significant factor.
#6657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
2H haste

Would the DPS be viable for a 2H during with a large amount of haste?
I'm looking to get a torch of the damned. 3.8 atk spd (with 50 haste). If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion the atk speed would be close to 1.75 (plus flurry) dont know exact numbers. with the highest top end in the game and that attack speed would it be viable dps while the haste buffs are up? It also seems that when i have all of my haste buffs and add dragonstrike 212 haste to that for my DW, the speed wastes a lot of white hits while wfcd is up.
#6658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Originally Posted by vaynous View Post
If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion
So you're asking if you'd be viable for 30 seconds every 10 minutes?
#6659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
ya 30 seconds every 10 min
#6660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
I mean, you realize how ludicrous that is right?
#6661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
i use all of those items anyway. its either better or worse. what is your opinion?
#6662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
btw im DW when this isnt going on btw. just incase u think im using a 2H the whole time
#6663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
plus flurry and UR would be up when i switch from DW and i have all of my haste buffs
#6664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Hm. You stated you saw this, but I couldn't find the data points. Can I have the combat logs? I'd love to add new data, especially with your consistent low ping, to the thread.
First, a good place to test this are the mobs in the Blasted Lands. Go all out for a while, then let someone taunt. You run ooc. Now you have alle the time you want to attack from behind .

2.6speed, MH 100dps, OH 5dps, 4m:15s runtime, ~50ms (at night I get <30ms )
It's so synced, the hits even swap places sometimes. Two instances, where the hits were 0,4s apart (at 5403+5408). I blame lag. Some mongoose proc were in there too.
5319,465	You	hit	183
5319,767	You	crit	1156
5321,726	You	hit	183
5321,967	You	crit	977
5323,830	You	hit	183
5324,052	You	miss	0
5325,917	You	crit	378
5326,178	You	hit	534
5328,379	You	miss	0
5328,700	You	hit	550
5331,018	You	crit	376
5331,396	You	crit	974
5333,240	You	hit	183
5333,551	You	hit	556
5335,410	You	hit	183
5335,642	You	hit	499
5337,869	You	crit	377
5338,230	You	hit	560
5340,058	You	hit	183
5340,357	You	hit	472
5342,407	You	crit	378
5342,797	You	hit	497
5344,686	You	hit	182
5344,921	You	crit	924
5347,100	You	hit	183
5347,475	You	hit	563
5349,705	You	hit	183
5350,087	You	miss	0
5352,335	You	miss	0
5352,716	You	crit	1029
5354,717	You	hit	183
5354,955	You	crit	1010
5356,786	You	miss	0
5357,138	You	crit	1088
5358,862	You	crit	377
5359,245	You	hit	539
5400,969	You	hit	183
5401,298	You	hit	500
5403,271	You	crit	377
5403,706	You	hit	525
5405,464	You	miss	0
5405,810	You	hit	472
5407,857	You	crit	378
5408,320	You	hit	441
5410,072	You	hit	183
5410,437	You	crit	1125
5412,468	You	hit	183
5412,841	You	crit	989
5414,700	You	hit	183
5415,000	You	hit	468
5416,860	You	crit	377
5417,084	You	hit	443
5419,365	You	hit	183
5419,660	You	crit	938
5421,816	You	hit	183
5421,929	You	hit	547
5423,888	You	hit	183
5424,019	You	hit	471
5426,280	You	miss	0
5426,452	You	crit	976
5428,629	You	crit	377
5428,663	You	hit	547
5430,702	You	hit	183
5430,751	You	hit	542
5433,135	You	miss	0
5433,184	You	hit	518
5435,728	You	hit	184
5435,822	You	hit	472
5438,338	You	hit	183
5438,418	You	hit	489
5440,942	You	hit	183
5441,130	You	hit	521
5443,646	You	hit	183
5443,710	You	hit	543
5446,189	You	hit	183
5446,221	You	hit	474
5448,836	You	miss	0
5448,852	You	miss	0
5451,381	You	hit	468
5451,413	You	miss	0
5454,042	You	miss	0
5454,076	You	hit	533
5456,585	You	crit	1097
5456,618	You	miss	0
5458,670	You	hit	183
5458,702	You	crit	1053
5500,758	You	miss	0
5500,791	You	crit	1015
5502,842	You	hit	183
5502,876	You	hit	459
5504,924	You	crit	377
5504,957	You	hit	553
5507,438	You	crit	1126
5507,472	You	crit	377
5509,720	You	hit	530
5509,738	You	hit	182
5511,791	You	miss	0
5511,825	You	hit	183
5514,333	You	crit	993
5514,351	You	crit	377
5516,628	You	hit	183
5516,661	You	miss	0
5518,701	You	crit	376
5518,735	You	hit	478
5521,121	You	hit	182
5521,153	You	crit	1142
5523,271	You	hit	183
5523,305	You	hit	543
5525,423	You	crit	377
5525,457	You	hit	453
5527,894	You	crit	1162
5527,927	You	hit	183
5530,042	You	hit	184
5530,060	You	crit	915
5532,637	You	crit	378
5532,655	You	crit	1122
5534,877	You	hit	184
5534,895	You	hit	493
5536,961	You	hit	183
5536,980	You	crit	1010
5539,113	You	hit	183
5539,147	You	crit	1006
5541,197	You	crit	377
5541,215	You	crit	1127
5543,273	You	hit	183
5543,292	You	hit	476
5545,358	You	miss	0
5545,377	You	crit	376
5547,477	You	crit	378
5547,494	You	hit	555
5549,557	You	crit	376
5549,575	You	crit	939
5551,638	You	hit	183
5551,659	You	crit	996
5553,719	You	hit	184
5553,738	You	crit	935
5555,801	You	hit	183
5555,819	You	crit	966
5557,945	You	hit	183
5557,962	You	miss	0
5600,018	You	hit	501
5600,052	You	hit	183
5602,535	You	crit	1005
5602,568	You	hit	183
5604,773	You	crit	378
5604,792	You	crit	1061
5606,856	You	hit	183
5606,874	You	hit	504
5608,922	You	crit	985
5608,955	You	crit	378
5611,006	You	crit	971
5611,040	You	hit	183
5613,100	You	crit	377
5613,119	You	hit	532
5615,232	You	miss	0
5615,253	You	crit	1034
5617,671	You	crit	1112
5617,704	You	crit	376
5619,866	You	crit	990
5619,885	You	crit	378
5621,901	You	hit	183
5621,934	You	hit	516
5623,941	You	crit	378
5623,976	You	crit	997
5626,033	You	hit	182
5626,066	You	crit	988
5628,075	You	crit	377
5628,108	You	hit	527
5630,121	You	hit	183
5630,155	You	hit	474
5632,624	You	crit	1042
5632,641	You	miss	0
5634,701	You	hit	183
5634,767	You	hit	477
5636,827	You	hit	444
5636,827	You	crit	377
5638,840	You	crit	1130
5638,859	You	hit	184
5640,871	You	crit	961
5640,904	You	hit	184
5642,990	You	miss	0
5642,990	You	crit	378
5645,403	You	hit	183
5645,403	You	crit	1083
5647,578	You	hit	183
5647,595	You	crit	1009
5649,606	You	hit	184
5649,640	You	crit	999
5651,643	You	miss	0
5651,685	You	hit	465
5653,733	You	crit	1111
5653,752	You	crit	377
5655,849	You	hit	182
5655,882	You	hit	503
5657,929	You	hit	447
5657,961	You	miss	0
5700,366	You	hit	472
5700,399	You	crit	377
5702,614	You	hit	535
5702,632	You	crit	376
5704,697	You	hit	543
5704,761	You	hit	182
5706,820	You	hit	554
5706,854	You	hit	183
5709,463	You	hit	503
5709,463	You	hit	183
5712,101	You	hit	464
5712,135	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	447
5717,321	You	miss	0
5717,338	You	crit	946
5719,554	You	hit	183
5719,573	You	hit	559
5721,668	You	hit	182
5721,701	You	crit	1138
5723,768	You	hit	183
5723,786	You	hit	553
5725,831	You	crit	378
5725,867	You	hit	530
5728,268	You	hit	184
5728,301	You	miss	0
5730,924	You	hit	183
5730,926	You	crit	1047
5733,118	You	hit	183
5733,151	You	crit	971
5735,198	You	hit	183
5735,231	You	crit	1080
Link to Log (Excel)

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 02/01/08 at 4:21 PM.
#6665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Thanks much for the link. Downloading the Office 2k7 compatability pack now to open the xlsx file.
#6666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Oh, I forgot about Excel2007. I changed the link to 2003/97.
#6667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
It's no prob, I needed to install the converter anyway. Get with the times, all that stuff ;-)

So, I opened it, and I guess the part that makes it difficult for me is that I can't see the flurry or mongoose or other procs. I'm sure you did a fine job in taking those into account, but with the raw data missing, I have trouble reconciling what you're seeing with what I saw in that other thread.

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
#6668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
Uh, look at the bottom. The original is there too.
#6669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
My question above was not thorough enough.

I am DW for the encounter and for a short period of time, i.e. when flurry and UR are proc'ed and when i have used a haste potion 400 haste (10 second duration), Drums of Battle 80 haste and Bloodlust is it viable to switch to a 2H weapon such as Torch of the Damned 3.8 atkspd with 50 haste rating. Considering that with Dragonstrike proc adding an additional 212 haste rating, that would result in too many white hits. Basically is the 2H fast enough with the haste buffs? Or do the added white hits still outweigh the possible dps of the 2H with the increased speed? (I understand that this is a very short amount of time, I'm bored and I was just curious).
#6670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rapparee
I too am confused on your theorycrafting about the torch of the damned if fully hasted out the wazoo.....

On the front end it looks like you're just high. So let's look at some math and see what we get.

General assumptions: you kick it new-school with either S3 weapons or Torch of the Damned.
You have enough haste with Torch to hit 1.75s speed (for 30seconds, you've got double length haste pots and a horseshoe up your ass, whatever it takes).
Your S3 weapons instead of 2.6 would be 2.6/1.4(bloodlust)/1.25(flurry-it's permanent due to that horseshoe for luck)/**whatever haste -50 **

Near as I can tell, Your torch set of gear would have to be 378haste.
3.8/1.4/1.25/1.2411 = 1.75
24.107% haste *15.68ish = 378ish haste

Your S3 weapons are rolling in 50 haste slower or...
2.6/1.4/1.25/1.2092 = 1.23

Supposedly you instantly switch weapons to the Torch of the Damned as you cast lust + all that other hulabaloo... but I'm going to go ahead and say that you lose 1.75seconds + 1.23seconds of attacks out of a 31.23 second due to weapon swaps upsetting your swing timer. Perhaps I'm totally wrong on this count and you don't really lose these times. But I'm going to go ahead and assume that the swing timer resets.
Naturally the S3 weapons lose no time, since you would not be switching them around for that scenario.

TORCH OF THE DAMNED:
You get 17 hits, first one at 1.75 seconds, last one at 29.75seconds.
You get 3 stormstrikes (5% miss rate, out of your 20hits, i'm taking 1 away)
You get 4 windfuries, sorry buddy, but at 20% chance and only 20ish possible hits, 4 is your max.

S3 -VENGEFUL WEAPONS OF FAR TOO GOOD FOR PVE:
You'd get 25MH hits, 25OH hits, first two at 0.615seconds, last one at 30.135. I did the first hit at halfway through a hasted swing cycle, since you didn't switch weapons and the last hit is that free hit that not switching weapons gives you.
You get 3 stormstrikes (i'm going to say you miss 15%, so instead of 28MH, 28OH, it's 24 each)
You get 6 windfuries (roughly 48 chances at 20% is 9.6 WFs, There must be collision due to 3.0seconds so I took away 3 and truncated just to be brutal, we'll make 3MH, 3OH for simplicity)

Let's assume that there's no additional procs going on... no double mongoose of the executed dragonspine tsunamis.
You've got 3000 AP
Torch average hit = 496.5+814, 1310.5. average WF = 623APbonus so 1479.6
S3 average hit = 268+557, 825MH 412.5OH. average WF = 940.7MH, 528.2OH (the WF's AP is not halved for OH hits, as far as I remember)

TORCH TOTAL= 19*1310.5+8*1479.6 = 36717
S3 VENGEFUL TOTAL = 24MH*825+24OH*412.5+6MH*940.7+6OH*528.2=38519

Sorry, but that's 2000 damage in 30seconds... roughly speaking it's 5% more damage to stay dual wield. with my goofy assumptions.

shoot someone caught me while i was editting in some miss chances... i added in some miss chances to make it slightly more realistic. (as if 100% flurry was realistitc)

Last edited by Rapparee : 02/01/08 at 5:53 PM.
#6671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Isn't this all based on the idea that the 2H would hit on every attack as well? You have to factor in that you're losing 6% hit because you aren't dual wielding any more. Wouldn't one miss pretty much ruin the potential DPS benefit?
#6672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
Thank you kind sir.

Although I am not high, I would much rather be high than be on speed and PCP which is very obvious you are.
#6673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sebudai
I'm confused as to where this is going. Dual wielding does more damage than using a two-handed weapon regardless of the amount of haste you have. I don't see how haste somehow scales better with a two-handed weapon than it would while dual wielding.

Maybe I'm dumb. Please explain.
#6674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
#6675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Was about to post this, excellent news for us. There is also a matching MH (apparently).

Does anyone know if that ancient bug with the +hit talent not working with fist weps still exsists?
#6932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
That's news to me, I've never heard of that bug.
#6933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Holy shit, I just shouted in joy at the sight of that offhand.

Perfect speed, high DPS, high top damage and argueably the best stats for a t6 shaman on it. Not to mention 2 sockets, with a decent socketbonus and a BLUE socket! Something to dump a blue gem in.

Jesus, finally they make a Shaman weapon... Rising Tide was a start, but meh. Although, again from trash.. so perhaps lower iLevel again than KJ weapons, thus inferior yet again?
#6934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Razzan
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
#6935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Originally Posted by Razzan View Post
Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I don't see how that's relevant or how any attempt to answer it would be anything other than speculation. However, I'll say that clearly the weapon is only useful for Fury warriors, Enhancement shamans, and trispec Hemo rogues.
#6936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?
#6937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Razzan View Post
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
There are 3 fist weapons weapon models files, set and offhand.


Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?

While i've never played DW Fury, from dps warrior thread it seems that at t6 level warriors prefer slow offhand.
#6938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Hm, our 2 Fury Warriors used the 1.5s offhand from trash until they both a Warglaive, maybe I should've shouted at them :o
#6939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?
Slow is slightly better due to the WW change. Before that, it didn't matter at all. Even now, it's nowhere near the benefit we see from using a slow OH.
#6940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
I am really quite shocked that there are upgrades in almost every slot (pleasantly surprised).

I haven't seen a new Totem though - seems bizarre that I will be using a Badge item with my Sunwell gear.
#6941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Razzan View Post
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I'd like to have that weapon . Slow is nice with good stats.
#6942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Honestly, I wish they'd remove racial abilities that affect weapons. I hate feeling like I'm hindering myself by not using an axe.
#6943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Low Life
From the point of view of a shaman who's probably not going to be stepping into a 25-man dungeon before Wrath of the Lich King, the 2.4 patch seems to be bringing a lot of nice gear. The leather shoulders from heroic Kael'thas are better than Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless from Kara (about 150ep with my values vs 140ep), the BoE ring seems to be the best one before the TK version of Kael (around 120ep), and if I didn't do any horrible miscalculations the BoE leather gloves come out at incredible 250ep, which is a lot more than the ep of the best gloves in the game currently on my values, Gloves of the Searing Grip at 160ep. Add the possibility that the Surestrike goggles V3.0 schematic won't be BoP and I'm getting a huge boost in my gear. Then again, people might be charging ridiculous amounts for Sunmotes which would slow the gearing down, but that's only a minor problem.
#6944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
You can forget about getting any Sunmotes anytime soonish, with the amount of upgrades available from them id say itll be sometime before they are sold if ever (wotlk will most likely hit before that).
#6945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jyca
Originally Posted by Razzan View Post
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I don't see how it's possible to make a weapon more desirable for a fury warrior than a shaman other than slapping a class restriction on it.
#6946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Razzan
Idd, class restriction would totally screw us over. I dont want to see that when 2.4 hits the live servers tbh . Anxious to see the Mainhand version of that fist weapon aswell.
#6947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Hey seriously. Quit the 2.4 talk unless it specifically relates to Enhancement issues, ie, gear analysis. Take your warrior talk, your drop rates, etc etc to the 2.4 thread.
#6948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pebblecrusher
Been reading as many of the posts on this thread as I could, but still a bit confused about a weapon choice. Read one post that states that The Decapitator is a good MH and Fool's Bane makes a good OH. Not a problem, I can see that. But I also have Malchazeen. Using Fool's Bane MH and Malchazeen OH yields more AP while only reducing the upper range of dmg by 20 or so. Then use WF and FT.

Agree?
#6949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
You need to re-read the entire section of the first post on Windfury.
#6950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
Run Yo's sim instead of asking here, I can bet its been asked before so search would also be a good idea but you really should get used to running the sim since the EP values will change over time and you shouldnt rely on the ones listed in the OP other than as a general guideline.

Oh btw: to really consider using fast OH with FT you really should have a 1.5 or faster weapon. Malchazeen is def. too slow to really make this an option.
#6951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pebblecrusher
Yes section 1 says WF is best on both weapons. Yet section 3.2.2 says FT is better on a fast weapon such as Malchazeen. Figured the specific info was better than the generalized.

I'll look into the sim. Thanks.
#6952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Malan
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
[e] see below

Last edited by Malan : 02/10/08 at 11:36 PM.
#6953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pebblecrusher
Valid points.

Edit:
So far the simulator shows higher DPS using Decapitator MH and Fool's Bane OH using WF on both. I set up using the simplest scenario. Basically had to. My trinkets are not listed and neither are the enchants I have or can afford atm. Very nice tool.

Last edited by Pebblecrusher : 02/10/08 at 11:19 PM.
#6954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
#6955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Malan
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
Its late and I'm dumb.

Last edited by Malan : 02/10/08 at 11:56 PM.
#6956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
Coming from a guy who is still doing pug Gruul raids for DST (Saw it drop 6 times.. lost all 6 even with rolling 95 in one of them)... LFG Heroic Magister's Terrace.
#6957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Weem
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.


Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
What is the correct equation for determining the proc? The way I calculated it (which very well could be wrong) shows it better than DST.
#6958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
.... Ok apparently I can't read. I calculated that trinket as though it were an On Use with a 2min cooldown. Oops.
#6959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bragor
Well let me do the math :

44 Expertise Rating
Chance on hit 230 AP for 20 seconds.

Assuming internal cooldown of 45 seconds (General Rule) & an expertise value of 3.18 per rating.

(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/45)) = 139.92 + 102.22 = 242.14 EP

Am I doing something wrong here Oo ?

Let me redo the math but valuing the expertise as solid hit instead of expertise seeing in most cases we gonna be behind the mob :

(44x1.69) + 102.22 = 176.58 EP <== This is still good.

Also did the liberty of running Yo's Sim again with my current stats and having the hours set to 10'000 to get accurate numbers :

Attack Power = 1
Crit rating = 1.81
Hit rating = 1.68
Haste rating = 1.91
Armor penetration = 0.3
Strength = 2.2
Agility = 1.76
Expertise rating = 3.21

Last edited by Bragor : 02/11/08 at 12:11 AM. Reason: Added a bit more info
#6960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
You had the same idea that I did Bragor. According to the calc I did, just to be exactly as good at the DST it would need an internal cooldown of 2 minutes.
#7396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.
Actually, this is the definition of "indeterministic" process (one where two runs can produce different outcomes). You are right that it is random, but it really isn't the same as purposely "rolling," it's simply an accident of asynchronous processing.

The reason for it makes sense when you think about it. Despite some of the great speculation on the issue, there's nothing really all that special about having two weapons of the same speed. Two same speed weapons will still have two separate swing timers producing two separate cycles and there's not even any guarantee that two weapons of the same speed will swing at the same time -- indeed, if you start and stop autoattack in combat, your offhand will be at least half a cycle out of sync with your main hand. Thus, it makes sense that each hand is treated as its own separate entity for purposes of evaluation, and it also makes sense that these evaluations may occur in any order, provided that they occur at the same "instant."

Simulators, on the other hand, no doubt evaluate the MH first over the OH, which will give the MH a bias that may not exist in game (the "spikes" in the MH vs OH graph). Anybody got two same-speed weapons and a good, real-world evaluation of MH vs OH procs and a comparison with simulations of the same gear?
#7397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by tepee007 View Post
I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?
This is sad.
You obviously didn't read the OP.....just like many, many others.
#7398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented.
This is what I was referring to as Psycke contradicting the OP. I know 20% is what the tooltip on the skill says, but that's not the reality of the skill, based on extensive testing.
#7399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i have not had a chance to read all 300 pages of this thread. i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here. for my rogue i have a exel spreadsheet that i can plug the armor that i currently have(armor, gems, weapons, enchants) and i can input my talent spec and then i hit a button and it lets me know a list of upgrades for that slot. Max DPS web site is close but doesn't have the plug in option my rogue one has. is there a exel spreadsheet file that i can download out there for enhancement shaman? if some1 has posted one in this thread that i have missed i am sorry but i missed it. i just want the number crunching to be a bit easier for me. i have a lot of good gear and am nowhere near what it seems i shood be in dps. granted i have been healing for 6 months and am not used to it but i shood be doing better IMO. i am a top 5 dps when i raid on my rogue so i know hoe to dps but need a lil help w/ my shammy.
#7400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by buzzed1979 View Post
i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here.
Far be it from me to call you a liar but did it seems almost impossible that one could manage to browse 'alot of it' without managing to read the entire first post. Try looking under '3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman' for an answer to your query.
#7401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i did say browsed. ty for the help. but when i click the link i don't see a speadsheet. there is a spot that is all grayed out at the top and then a bunch of q and a after it. am i missing something?
#7402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kasi
Well you can use Loot Rank. That seemed to work pretty well using the weight values given. However that just gives a rank of items, not a rank of items based off of items you already have. The other thing is that they don't seem to model RED very well.
#7403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
The mathcraft for an enhancement shaman is more complex than a rogue. We don't use formulas, we use combat simulators and determine the impact of each stat.

Run yo's simulator with your stats and get your EP values. Copy them into lootrank to figure out what would the best upgrades for you.
#7404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
#7405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i am running enhancer in game aswell
#7406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
Originally Posted by buzzed1979 View Post
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
Try updating Java. And correct your grammar/capitalization/punctuation before a mod sees it.
#7407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Executioner, again

A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
#7408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
That worked thank you very much. I will try to capitolize from now on.
#7409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
Sim disagrees :S and to my knowledge I've never seen or been suggested executioner procs only allow the weapon it's enchanted on to gain the benefit. The reason MH vs OH enchant matters is for different speed weapons 2.6 vs 2.8, atleast is my understanding
#7410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
I always thought that executioner applies to both weapons, which is why putting it on both hands causes it to refresh the duration instead of having two buffs.
#7426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
FYI, the Scryer version does NOT grant crit rating. It actually procs a spell called Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft) that does 500 damage to the current target.

I'm also interested in the Pendent of Resolve with its huge Expertise proc..
Ah! Interesting. I was going off what the people said in the wowhead comments and hadn't seen the Arcane Strike spell. Only the Aldor comparison is at all relevant then.

I think the Pendant of Resolve is going to be fairly useless for us, given that the expertise cap is ~90, and we'll have 44 from the trinket + whatever else you have from other gear. That trinket plus just the three new T6 pieces is well over the cap, which would make the proc do absolutely nothing. I'd much rather have passive expertise than to rely on a proc, or even an on use effect, for it.
#7427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
I know I've said this in this thread...

Equipping a totem will trigger the GCD, but does not depend on the GCD. This means that a macro like so:
/cast Healing Wave
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
Will result in a Healing Wave, cast with the benefit of Totem of Healing Rains with one button. However:
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
/cast Healing Wave
Will equip the totem, trigger the GCD, and prevent Healing Wave from being cast.

Making a macro like this:
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
/cast Flame Shock
Will not work.

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
Saw this older post and thought I'd add in a modification that would help to make sure you have Stonebreaker's Totem equipped before casting a shock:

set up both of the shocks as described, with

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Earth Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and then set up stormstrike and watershield to equip the stonebreaker's totem:

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
and

/cast Water Shield
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
The reason for this is because water shield is not on any cooldown other than the GCD, it costs no mana, and it's something that I usually refresh all the time anyway. It also figures that the only time your casting macros wouldn't equip the stonebreaker's totem before a shock was being cast was when stormstrike was on a long cooldown, and you had just used a shock (thereby equipping the totem of astral winds). That's the perfect time to refresh water shield and equip your stonebreaker's - when the gcd is not going to interfere with your rotation.

Of course, you could just equip the stonebreaker's outside of the macro, but why not maximize the utility of a single button press?
#7428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
Expanding from this, it would also seem to show that you gain the most benefit from haste items (pots, bloodlust, and drums) by using them individually, rather than all at once. It looks like I should start using haste potions in rotation with my drums and bloodlust. Probably I'll be burning the drums first, since the buff is slightly smaller and I'll be less likely to pull aggro as a result.

Of course, that has nothing to do with AEP values for haste...

I'd guess that the AEP value doesn't magically plummet once you break 1.5, but rather that it scales proportionately, such that as you build haste rating, the value of additional points lessens. This means that there would be some theoretical point at which additional haste rating is worth less than any other stat. It's been a long time since I was interpolating graphs, but if you can get me, say, 5 points of data (evenly spaced by haste rating increases preferred), I can see if I can come up with a formula for calculating haste value. Sure hope I remember the math correctly - I'll post it all here so other people can verify it.

Keep in mind that pretty much any enhance shaman in a raid will have nearly 100% uptime of flurry, for an automatic 30% haste right off the bat.

Something else: As haste rating increases, and the cooldown of stormstrike (as well as the 3-second cooldown of WF) remains static, the percentage of hits that are white damage vs. those that are yellow damage will increase. Thus, hit rating will gain in value as haste rating increases. Might be worth investigating whether or not the percentage change in white hits vs. yellow hits is significant enough to warrant a greater AEP for hit rating when using lots of haste buffs.

Conversely, people with almost no haste rating on their gear may reach a point at which their weapons are so powerful and slow that the haste rating to gloves enchant outperforms 15 strength. I personally doubt it, but while I'm spouting ideas, I figured I'd throw this one out there, too.

Something else I thought of - as your haste rating increases, the number of hits that you get during the duration of timed buffs will increase, thus increasing the value of those buffs. Anyone want to run some sims and see if it's more valuable to stack haste potions and drums that increase AP than to rotate haste drums and haste potions? I'm assuming from the OP that stacking haste drums and haste pots is automatically less dps than rotating them.

Likewise, stacking more haste will increase the value of items that provide timed buffs, such as the stonebreaker's totem. I don't think that any significant changes in top gear will result though, since most of those buff items are either already top-level, or provide buffs of such short duration as to be relatively insignificant AEP changes from 1 or 2 extra hits of haste.
So basicly you're saying that it works like Armor Penetration does, except opposite.
#7429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Concerning haste I just steal the graphics from the Rawr-Thread (thx to the auther):
wf procs vs. haste rating


flurry uptime vs. haste rating


1% haste does increase dmg by roughly 1% (all that has no cd, so basicly white dmg) . White dmg is about 40% of our dmg. 1% haste = 0.4% dmg increase. But as you can see in the first image there is a point where windfury procrate is breaking in by 2.5% (WF being about 30%) so at this point 1%haste does lead to : +0.4% dmg - 0.75% dmg = -0.35%

I think this is about right, ain't it?
#7430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3CeNo65
This is going to sound bad. I know it shouldn't work. I didn't think it would work. Yet, it does.

/castsequence reset=12/combat Flame Shock(Rank 7),Earth Shock(Rank 8)
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem

I tested swapping from no relic to Stonebreaker's and from a healing relic to Stonbreaker's. Latency might be the cause. In the first zone i tested it my latency was at 150ms. In the second zone it was 200ms. Any fios folks want to try this out? I am west coast and i believe my server is located in Boston.
#7431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Originally Posted by CeNo65 View Post
This is going to sound bad. I know it shouldn't work. I didn't think it would work. Yet, it does.

/castsequence reset=12/combat Flame Shock(Rank 7),Earth Shock(Rank 8)
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem

I tested swapping from no relic to Stonebreaker's and from a healing relic to Stonbreaker's. Latency might be the cause. In the first zone i tested it my latency was at 150ms. In the second zone it was 200ms. Any fios folks want to try this out? I am west coast and i believe my server is located in Boston.
Just a quick sidenote: It always DID work.. for any kind of "range" slot item. Librams, Idols, Totems.
Just as starting to cast a heal and swapping to healer weapon/shield does work. But not the other way around.
#7432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Binkenstein was doing some leg work on figuring out how to model that stacking effect, I think he said he had it figured it out. I'll check with him about it.
I thought it was the blue expertise/flat ap buff item that you asked about?

That said, it spawned the whole proc rate discussion, and finding out that the rogues had a formula all along!
I'll see what I can work out for the stacking buff in an "average AP value" based on weapon speeds.

[e]there's nothing on wowhead, so I can't check the trance duration/chance either

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/26/08 at 5:58 PM.
#7433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Post said formula please.
#7434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Binkenstein
D = Duration of the buff
p = Chance the the buff procs on any given attack
v = Number of attacks that can trigger the proc that occur in a given second, and
c = Internal cooldown of the trinket
U = uptime, then

u=D/(c+(1/VP))

It's in the proc mechanics wiki entry (Malan can read it, the rest of you probably can't). Only difference is I went V/P rather than 1/VP, but it works out the same anyway.

DW V = AB/(A+B) where A & B = weapon speeds
#7435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3kijik
Question in short, I have some badges saved up, but I am also looking to stack armor penetration to an extent, and thus I am pondering buying Dory's Embrace, BUT, Vanir's Right and Left Fist of Brutality are going to become available in 2.4, and I am wondering whether I should save badges for those, or go again and burn my dkp on Syphons in BT. Also, keep in mind that I do not have DST and do not forsee myself obtaining a DST in the near future, rather I will be picking up the Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's.

Thank you for any light you can shed on the subject.

Edit: Of course when I enter SWP with my guild I'll be picking up Mounting Vengeance ASAP.
#7436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
I've been studying the main post and the calculations now for a few days and first off all I'd like to say that it's impressive work, since it also seems to really work like mentioned above.
I only have two questions that keep bugging me a little bit.

1. Is there already any progress on "the most effective talent build"?
2. What's the EP value of a meta socket. Take for instance RED. It's not hard to calculate the EP value of 12 agility, tho the 3% crit damage seems a bit hard for me. I hope there is a solution for that.

My thanks

-Tulaugu-

p.s. Maybe it has already been asked before, if there is an awnser, please put it in the main post. I was not really motivated to dig through over 200 pages.
#7437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khlysti
Originally Posted by Grekk View Post
Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:
(using 2.8MH and 2.6OH)
In my case the 5.9% passive haste combined with dual Mongoose and heroism (and of course flurry) will bring my
MH speed to about 1.5x, once i use drums it drops to 1.4x. (the Sim takes care of Mongoose and Flurry)

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is lowered by a factor of (in my case) 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5. Any haste before this is worth exactly as much as Yos Simulator tells you. The new AEP weight is dependant on the length of the fight relative to the hasted time.
(the same with usable trinkets that are best if the fight is exactly 140 seconds long)

My calculated haste-AEP is 1.81.
If the fight is 3 minutes (180 seconds) long, i will spend 25% of the Time hasted to 1.4x.
So basically 25% of the time my haste (beyond the 'cap') is only worth 28.6% of it's original value (loses 71.4%).
Over the whole fight haste will therefore lose 0.25*0.714 = 0.1785 = 17.85% of it's original value.
My haste-AEP for a 3 minute fight where heroism always puts me below the 'cap' is (1-0.1785)*1.81 = 1.4869.

correct me if I'm wrong :P
Before I go any further, the important thing to always remember with the '1.5 speed point' is that while haste may have smaller returns in terms of dps when crossing this point, any meaningful amount will still be a dps increase.

Now, to give a full run down on the set I used for the sim, (as standard for me, I use my own char as a base).

AP: 1932 Crit: 31.48 Hit: 17.48 Haste: 4.76 Armour Penetration: 252
MHDPS: 100.3 MHSpeed: 2.8 MHExp: 0 OHDPS: 100.3 OHSpeed: 2.8 OHExp: 0
Spell Hit: 1 Spell Crit: 5 Strength: 216 Agility: 328

I used Dual Mongoose, Madness of the Betrayer, Stonebreaker Totem, 24 shocks per minute and no waiting for SS use.
5/5 Concussion, 3/3 Call of Flame and 5/5 Reverberation. (other talent tick boxes as default)
Default for Buffs/Debuffs except: Improved Hunter's Mark, Expose Weakness, CoR, Solarian's Sapphire.
Boss Armour was set to 6600 (yeah this number is odd, didn't notice till I was done, but it doesn't affect the result).
I also had no haste pots drums etc on the sim as these I would model myself.
Also note that Heroism is an extra 30% multiplier on weapon speed and cannot just be added as +30 to haste% on the sim.

With that listed on to the simming.

This setup gave me a baseline dps of 1853 on the sim.

For now lets assume the shaman is the only leatherworker in the group and as such we can have:
A: Drums + Hero for 30 secs, Hero for 10 secs, nothing for 30 secs or
B: Hero for 40 sec and Drums for 30 sec.

In this case A gives a 2055 average and B gives a 2068 average.

This would appear to suggest that option B (use seperate) is the best idea.
This however is not always true, option B wins here because the mongoose procs on top of drums flurry and hero are just enough to push us fractionally below the 1.5 point, while using drums seperate from hero means we never hit this point. With mongoose off A wins by ~15 dps, with it on B wins by ~13 dps. (the dps with mongoose on is vastly higher than that with it off).

Modifying haste rating to the point that we just clip the 1.5 point without needing mongoose procs sees option B pull out to ~20 dps ahead of option A.

This shows two basic points,
1) haste stacked with hero is better than the two separated
2) crossing the 1.5 point can cause haste to give lower returns

In our example above the clipping is enough that combined with how small the haste gains from the drums is we are better off seperating, we do however still gain dps from drums used during heroism. (I have no numbers here, but I assume that as a group drums + hero is still better than seperate since the other group members don't have the 3 sec WF cooldown to contend with).

We will now assume that drums have 100% uptime (by which I mean that for the peroid at and near to heroism use drums are up full time, this only needs 2-3 leatherworkers, easily achievable in a melee group wanting to max dps).

With haste potions we have a similar choice to before.
A: Hero + Pot for 15 secs, Hero for 25 secs, nothing for 15 secs
B: Hero for 40 secs, Pot for 15 secs.

Staying with the same details from earlier, but with the extra 80 haste rating from drums always on we get:
A = 2210 dps and B = 2203 dps. A having a 7 dps lead.

With no mongoose we see however that B is 9 dps ahead.

Once again this a 1.5 point factor, if Hero + mongoose + haste rating means you are already sub 1.5, then using the pot with the hero is better, if hero + mongoose + haste rating still leaves you just above 1.5, and using the pot on top of hero will take you under it may be better to use them seperately.

Other clickies used during hero will help sway to using a haste pot then too.

The conclusion then.

Whether or not to stack on use haste effects with heroism depends on whether the extra effect is what pushes you through 1.5 speed, if the on use does this it may be better to seperate, if you would cross it anyway then using together is better.

As to haste rating 'getting worse the more you have, as a sort of reverse of Armour Penetration', that is just pure silly talk. If you could hit enough passive haste to reach 1.5 with just passive / flurry / mongoose, then a piece taking you just over may be bad, but with the need to use very slow weapons that amount of haste is not realistic.

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
#7438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grekk
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
Before I go any further, the important thing to always remember with the '1.5 speed point' is that while haste may have smaller returns in terms of dps when crossing this point, any meaningful amount will still be a dps increase.

(.toolongtoquote :P..)

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
You're right, i just tried the numbers myself. :P

I guess that's what
There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.
was about. Sorry to have wasted your time :P

Anyway even though the DPS loss from crossing the 1.5 point is small, wouldn't it still be better to 'invest AEP budget'
into other stats and prevent this happening altogether?
#7439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
As to haste rating 'getting worse the more you have, as a sort of reverse of Armour Penetration', that is just pure silly talk. If you could hit enough passive haste to reach 1.5 with just passive / flurry / mongoose, then a piece taking you just over may be bad, but with the need to use very slow weapons that amount of haste is not realistic.

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
Hitting 1.5 with just flurry and passives isn't unrealistic -- it's impossible. Once 2.4 comes out, the absolute maximum passive haste possible for a shaman will be +29%, and +33% is needed. However, if you have 0 haste on your gear and no haste procs other than flurry/mongoose, 2.6 speed weapons will be hasted to almost exactly 1.5 under BL. As a result, the sim might be giving overinflated AEP values for haste. Depending on how it calculates AEP values, it could easily also be giving underinflated values for the first point of haste too, as adding 2 HR is enough to push you under 1.5 seconds with BL/Flurry/Mongoose x1.

With a DST, there's probably a small drop in haste value at 150 haste rating, but that really isn't worth worrying about.

Originally Posted by Grekk View Post
Anyway even though the DPS loss from crossing the 1.5 point is small, wouldn't it still be better to 'invest AEP budget'
into other stats and prevent this happening altogether?
If you have any haste at all, you're already spending part of the fight under the 1.5 level. Adding more haste merely increases that time, which means that haste has a linear (upward) effect on your dps which should be accurately predicted by Yo!'s simulator. It's really not worth second guessing the sim -- if it says an item the best choice, it probably is.
#7440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
D = Duration of the buff
p = Chance the the buff procs on any given attack
v = Number of attacks that can trigger the proc that occur in a given second, and
c = Internal cooldown of the trinket
U = uptime, then

u=D/(c+(1/VP))

It's in the proc mechanics wiki entry (Malan can read it, the rest of you probably can't). Only difference is I went V/P rather than 1/VP, but it works out the same anyway.

DW V = AB/(A+B) where A & B = weapon speeds
Right, updatery time.

Basic uptime assuming just white hits (I haven't even tried getting a WF model working yet)

A & B are the weapon speed values for calculating V from above.

\frac{AB}{A + B}\
But for simplifying the calculations, I will use V in place of the above.

U = \frac{D}{c + \frac{V}{P}\ }\

Now, the trick with a trinket like this is that we have to calculate the "ramp up" effect of the buff.
This is done using the following, where c is the per-charge buff value

\frac{c(0.5x^2 + 0.5x)}{xV}\ + cx(D-xV)

This should give us an overall buff ap value, which we simply multiply with U to get our average AP value for trinket comparison.

Might want to double check the math though.

[e]D is the duration of the "trance" plus 20 seconds after it.

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/27/08 at 12:56 AM.
#7516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kween
"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"


I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.
#7517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
goddi23a
Well, It depends on the tool you use to measure the dps if fire Totems are added to your dps.

But they do some nice dmg, even if you havent spec them through elemental talents.


Some wws Data, MH Azalgor trash waves:
Ability	             Hits  	Avg
Magma Totem          1158       133
Searing  	     210	169
Fire Nova 	     353	767

Don't forget the spelldmg you gain through MentalQ. !
( And with S.Rage you should have enough mana to set an Nova Totem on nearly every CD. )



P.S.Edit:
But what else can you do with the fire totem slot; FT is useless if WF totem is up ( witch is in most cases ) and FrostR. only make sense in a few encounters.

Last edited by goddi23a : 02/29/08 at 3:24 AM.
#7518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kween
Ah looks pretty good. Yeah I will usually drop down Magma but Fire Nova is way expensive and Searing..I dunno I may have to pick it up.

Thanks.
#7519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
My searing totem does about 50-75 DPS depending on actual attackpower. So its another 5% DPS which is easy to get. If you are using Recount as damagemeter, your totems won't show up because it's not save tracking them with the current combatlog. The author tries to get it to work with 2.4 when the new combatlog allows better tracking.
#7520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ragzhi
Originally Posted by Kween View Post
"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"


I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.
Well, it depends on who you ask, if you just look at the damage meters, it wont say that it's you're damage since it can't seperate your totem from any other shaman's totem. But if you hadn't been there dropping that totem, there wouldn't be some 40 dps on the boss for almost no effort.

So no, it wont show (unless someone know that you're the only one using searing totem & merging it to you on WWS) but it's still you're damage.

[E] Beaten.
#7521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grekk
This is interesting as i was just about to make a post about this.

I've noticed recently that with Double Mongoose Procs, Flurry, and a rogue popping Drums of Battle, or me using Bloodlust my weapon speed drops perilously close to 1.5.

If i use BL whilst the drums are up it goes below 1.5 So atm i am waiting for the drums to run out before using BL. I never use my Haste pots anymore, and am wondering whether to either get Executioner enchanted in the offhand, even though i don't have all that much armour penetration, and whether to use Insane Strengths instead of Haste Pots, as like i said i'm very close to dropping below 1.5 weapon speed in my offhand (Not a prob for Main as it's Syphon with 2.8 speed)
I think there is some misunderstanding here.
Haste potions will ALWAYS increase you dps, and they will do even more so when you are on BL, as will drums.

Again, even if a plateau at 1.5s wasn't a myth (which it is), you won't spend enough time there to notice.
this is EJ, it's not really important if you NOTICE an increase, just whether it is there.

To build my post around drums and haste potions probably wasn't a good idea, so i will try a different approach.


Image you were to face Brutallus (6 minute fight) and you had to choose which bracers to wear.
Now imagine without bracers you had enough passive haste (around 15% i think) that your Mainhand will be just above 1.5 under the following conditions:

- you have Flurry
- you have BL/Hero up

Now let us assume I were to choose between the following two items:
[Master Assassin Wristwraps]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]

using my stat weights: Loot Rank

leads me to the conclusion, that [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] should be better by 5.24 AEP

In my last post I calculated that I would loose 22 dps for the duration of time, that I spend below 1.5.
Now let's see what happens if I choose [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes].

- I gain 142.25 AEP which should be around 49.7 DPS for the whole duration of the fight
- I loose 22 dps for 40s/360s = 11% of the fight which equals a loss of 2.44 DPS over the whole fight

We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).
#7522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Mindrila View Post
Neck
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.
Enhancer has no logic to get get bonuses from items in it, instead it uses ItemBonusLib (on of the many ace libraries) for that. Possibly it doesn't capture the expertise if you're using a locale other then enUS or you have no value assigned to expertise? Either way I can't reproduce the error, both Enhancer and EquivalencePoints pick up the expertise for me:

(Ignore the gem just chugged an old gem I had lying around untill I get a resil gem)
#7523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mindrila
Yes I'm using deDE as locale.

Thanks for the hint, I'll go check the ItemBonusLib.

Edit:
Ok I've changed my ItemBonusLib so that weapon expertise is properly recognized for deDE. Now it works fine. Thank you.

Last edited by Mindrila : 02/29/08 at 7:42 AM.
#7524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Originally Posted by Grekk View Post
We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).
So, essentially what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about dropping below 1.5 if it is via the useage of Haste Pots, BL, drums, or mongoose procs, but that i shouldn't take haste gear (which i don't anyway).

I ran Yo!'s sim for 5000 hours with my stats and with my gear the EP values came back as haste being worth 1.96 and hit and crit at 1.97 with ofc strength at 2.2 and expertise being 3.53 or something.

I know what i'm aiming for in Sunwell, and the new T6 pieces do have some haste rating on them. According to Yo!'s the haste rating is worth alot of EP atm, but as you just mentioned actually some pieces with haste can result in a loss of dps. So should a trade off be made? If i get the T6 pieces with haste on for example, should i lose some haste elsewhere by saying for example losing a mongoose for an executioner, to minimise the time spent at under 1.5 speed?
#7525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
I have it built into my twisting macro. I can't say I've noticed the extra mana (our pallies have been pretty good with JoW) or an increase in shock damage. I'll try and pay attention tonight.
Is anybody willing to share their Enh macros with the group?

I use a basic twisting/stormstrike cycle macro for my main button smash, a totem cycle macro to drop earth/fire/water, and a shock cycle macro to go between ES and FS. I'd like to know if anyone has something more advanced that:

- Uses drums when they are up
- Uses Haste pot when it is up
- Makes twisting more efficient than just cycling WF,GoA,SS.

Thanks!
#7526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Originally Posted by Aksing View Post
to minimise the time spent at under 1.5 speed?
How many posts does it take of people saying stop worrying about the haste effect before you start reading them?
#7527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Aksing View Post
So, essentially what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about dropping below 1.5 if it is via the useage of Haste Pots, BL, drums, or mongoose procs, but that i shouldn't take haste gear (which i don't anyway).
No, what we're all saying -- what we've ALWAYS been saying -- is use the simulator, know your EP values and gear accordingly. The simulator will test your hast pots, BL, drums, mongoose, Troll berzerking, Dragonstrike, passive haste, etc etc, and give passive hast a value based on how much additional DPS it brings to the table.

You shouldn't worry about 1.5s because it MEANS NOTHING. And if it did mean something, the simulator would discover it and adjust your EP accordingly. Trust the simulator, it's a decent analyst and good at math.
#7528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Quoted from the 1st post just in case...

It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

---

That being said, since it's been noted that so many of the new items from the 2.4 patch will give Expertise, does it have a point at which it stops being useful? I would assume since Expertise and hit rating impact dodge reduction...if I'm following this right...that it would stop being useful right around the same point as +hit? Unless I'm constantly standing in front of the Mob during a raid of course.

I'm sorry, but of all the sections in the 1st post, the Expertise section is the most confusing. If someone has another way to explain it then that would be helpful. It might just be a lack of exposure on my end. I did research on other forums and WoWWiki and such, and came up with Expertise of 103 from the non Human or Orc non talented listing on the Roguecraft 101 thread...not rating, just Expertise.

This is from the roguecraft 101 thread...
The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.


What sort of cap would we aim not to overshoot as Shamans? If this was mentioned in the last 302 pages then I missed it. At a certain point that stat can't be weighed as high as it starts out, right?...

Sorry for the confusion...
#7529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gehenna
roguecraft

Like you say, roguecraft says not to get more than 103.

That should make a boss encounter unable to dodge you.

So i would say get 103...

Last edited by Gehenna : 02/29/08 at 4:13 PM.
#7530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
It stops being useful at the point where you cap your anti-dodge, ~5-6% against a boss.
(Was that really so hard to figure out?)
#7681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genshoku
With the sunwell being constantly fubard my guild has been hopping into the t5 instances and even gruul's for more DSTs in the past couple weeks since after the t6 clear we're all bored out of our minds. I happened to pick up a Shoulderpads of the Stranger this week and as far as my personal AEP goes, it's significantly higher depending on party makeup/buffs and my weapon choice. I tested it in raid and as a draenei shaman without any other expertise gear the .50% reduced dodge equated to somewhere around .7% over about 4 hours in hyjal and bt last night compared with the Hidden Predator shoulderpads last week.

The simulator indicates an approximate 3 dps increase with stranger over predator; real time testing indicates that they equate to about the same dps on trash with the leather giving a slight increase on bosses (10 dps average over 8 bosses). I've ran sims with and without kings/might/lotp and they all indicate the same pattern.

My question is this - at what level of expertise does the curve in dps gain justify equipping expertise at the loss of some crit? I.e. the curve stays level for a certain amount of expertise, starts gaining slope and hits a point where the slope is maximized, what is this point when the possible loss of crit is taken into account?
#7682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
What +hit do you assume in those calculations? The math in the OP assumes 15% total (talents + ~95 rating, which is admittedly a bit low for a raiding shaman but possibly not low for early Kara-level), and comes out with < 98% UR uptime and 57% flurry uptime with 30% crit. (Though the Flurry math leaves out other sources of crits, like Windfury and Stormstrike, so it will actually be higher. I don't have a good way to model it at work, but I can't imagine it would be over 20% higher with 10% less crit chance by adding WF and SS.) Don't want to say you're absolutely wrong, but those uptimes seem unreasonably high for very low crit% without some math to back it up.
Leaving out WF and SS crits is a big, big weakness. Supposing you get 1 SS every 10 sec and 2 WF procs every 10 sec you are missing 2+2+2=6 crit chances. With 25% crit you would expect 1.5 Flurry refreshes, which could easily be another 3 sec of Flurry uptime. Remember we are talking every 10 seconds, so that's an extra 30% of Flurry uptime.

I'm using 15% hit and Yo's simulator, which tracks UR uptime on the main tab and Flurry uptime on the Forensic report tab. (Technically, it is "% strikes hasted by Flurry" which is slightly different from Flurry uptime, but I would feel that it is an equally useful measure.)
Originally Posted by Genshoku
My question is this - at what level of expertise does the curve in dps gain justify equipping expertise at the loss of some crit? I.e. the curve stays level for a certain amount of expertise, starts gaining slope and hits a point where the slope is maximized, what is this point when the possible loss of crit is taken into account?
Oh my gahhh.....
This question is meaningless without any parameters. Expertise is always worth giving up crit for, if it's enough expertise and little enough crit. Expertise is never worth giving up crit for, if it's a little bit of expertise and tons of crit. Use the simulator, use the EP numbers it spits out, and you won't have to ask these types of questions.
#7683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Flurry uptime is great for your DPS, but doesn't provide any other benefit besides possibly better mana regen during SR
I seem to recall SR being a PPM buff. So any variation of 2h/DW and speed is irrelevant.
#7684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
I seem to recall SR being a PPM buff. So any variation of 2h/DW and speed is irrelevant.
I'd like to see some evidence of this.... sometimes when I use it I get 1k mana back and other times 7k, if it was PPM I would think it'd be alot less streaky.
#7685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
This was a claim first made by Snorkle on Blizz EU shaman forums, IIRC. He claimed he had tested this over a long time and concluded this.
#7686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
I'd like to see some evidence of this.... sometimes when I use it I get 1k mana back and other times 7k, if it was PPM I would think it'd be alot less streaky.
I did some data parses of some shaman tests of SR and found that it was a chance on hit. However, my analyses weren't that great (though Oggie did a great job of gathering the data). So, I thought it was a flat chance on hit.

However, snorkle did longer tests and came to pretty convincing conclusions about it being PPM. His tests looked good enough that I didn't feel that it was justified to spend the time to confirm or deny - I've taken it for granted since then that it is indeed a PPM effect.

But, as always, blasted lands is --> that way if anyone feels bored and wants to do some testing for further confirmation or a possible denial :-)
#7687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tri∆ngle
@Yo!
hello, i'm a long-time lurker of this thread, but this is the first post i've made.
since enh/ele was found to do comparable dps to enh/resto, i've been running with a 16/45 spec, and it works out pretty nicely. however, when running the simulator, if you have 0/3 or 3/3 elemental devestation, everything transpires exactly as you'd expect, but if you put in 1/3 or 2/3 (i currently have 1/3), then your crit chance drops to basically 0, you have 0 UR uptime, and your dps goes down by around 35-40%. i even tried adding an extra 0 to my crit chance, and at 300% crit, i have a UR uptime of 2% :[

for now i've just been testing with 0/3 elemental devestation, but i just thought i should make this bug known.

also, awesome simulator Yo!, mega-useful, despite this small discrepency :]
#7688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Leaving out WF and SS crits is a big, big weakness. Supposing you get 1 SS every 10 sec and 2 WF procs every 10 sec you are missing 2+2+2=6 crit chances. With 25% crit you would expect 1.5 Flurry refreshes, which could easily be another 3 sec of Flurry uptime. Remember we are talking every 10 seconds, so that's an extra 30% of Flurry uptime.
The equation also ignores that three charges of Flurry will sometimes haste more than three swings. The flurry uptime equation is really only useful for showing the difference in UR uptime between DW/2h, and using it for anything else will just mislead you.

On a related note, does each hand roll independantly to crit with SS? It seems unlikely that they'd use the same hit roll (as they appear to) and different crit roles, but I also don't remember consistantly getting double SS crits.
#7689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Well, we operate under the assumption that SS is a "two-roll" attack. Technically, it is a "three-roll" attack in that each hand has independent crit rolls.
#7690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Well, apparently the healing debuff has been removed from Flametongue now, according to mmo-champion and worldofraids. I wonder if they're just abandoning the idea, or if it will be reintroduced in some way again before the patch is released.
#7691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Disquette
I haven't seen the post myself, but apparently Kalgan directly stated that it was intentionally taken out, according to several people on the Blizzard forums.
#7692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I haven't seen the post myself, but apparently Kalgan directly stated that it was intentionally taken out, according to several people on the Blizzard forums.
WoW BlueTracker: Lifetap change reverted
Originally Posted by Kalgan
Yes the flametongue revert was intentional. After putting it through its paces we felt like we'd gone too far on that one.
As an aside, there is some interesting info in there on the under-/over-representation of certain classes at 1850+ and 2200+ ratings, for each bracket. Take it with a grain of salt though, it's based on the total number of max-level characters of each class, so classes with lots of max-level characters (Warrior) are "under-represented" even though they are found on many arena teams.
#7693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genshoku
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Oh my gahhh.....
This question is meaningless without any parameters. Expertise is always worth giving up crit for, if it's enough expertise and little enough crit. Expertise is never worth giving up crit for, if it's a little bit of expertise and tons of crit. Use the simulator, use the EP numbers it spits out, and you won't have to ask these types of questions.
It's a legitimate question and an "I don't know if anyone's taken the time to do this" would have sufficed instead of telling me to go do it.

My point in asking was to not waste 5 hours of plugging numbers into spreadsheets and then simulating 10 different sets of stats and gear if someone had already done it and was willing to share what the median line there is. You can't just play with numbers in the simulator and get correct dps, you have to take into account every piece of gear and every stat change that you would gain the expertise from or the AEP values mean nothing.

If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
#7694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Genshoku View Post
It's a legitimate question and an "I don't know if anyone's taken the time to do this" would have sufficed instead of telling me to go do it.

My point in asking was to not waste 5 hours of plugging numbers into spreadsheets and then simulating 10 different sets of stats and gear if someone had already done it and was willing to share what the median line there is. You can't just play with numbers in the simulator and get correct dps, you have to take into account every piece of gear and every stat change that you would gain the expertise from or the AEP values mean nothing.

If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
But that is what you need to do. Expertise has most of correlation (sp?) with hit, but very little with crit (yellow use 2 roll system, so it has small effect). So in order to determine how much crit you can trade for expertise you will have to get your own values for them and then do the math. Furtheron expertise has steps opposed to continual (linear, exponental etc) nature of all other stats i believe. And like hit and crit it also has maximum value that can be achieved. After 2.4 that maximum is actually not so hard to achieve btw. All expertise after that maximum (normally by maximum here it is considered for dodge as we do not get parries behind) will only affect parry for some time before becoming totally useless.
#7695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Easiest way to compare different style of gears is put it them to two different warcrafter sheets. Then put these stats to YO's. Take about 5minute and you can see your looks too. Don't try manually calculate AP relationships. Just sim it and see dps. Simple.
#7891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
I just glanced at the numbers, but the hit counts that Yo was summing seemed to be the ones from the log overview, and not from specific bosses.
#7892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
The only way to do this correctly is to add expertise as slowly as we can around where we feel the cap is (post 2.4 of course) and see when we push them off the table.
#7893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toots Hepcat
It is difficult to "add expertise as slowly as we can," because it's always in big blocks (10 ER or more) and often in odd quantities. I suppose some braniac could mine all the gear with expertise and set us up with combinations that amount to even "steppings" between 20 and 25 Expertise, and then some poor sap could go farm all said gear. But we don't need it.

If we find enough parses of enough boss fights with no adds and consistent dodge mechanics from non-Orc shaman with no expertise, we can merge them all together in a spreadsheet and figure out the true dodge rate. One column for dodges, another for every other combat result. (I assumed the Rogue theorycrafters had already done this, that their number was accurate and that it would be the same for shaman.)

Quick reminder:
1) A single parse isn't going to give us enough data to make a determination with any certainty -- we all know you can have bad fights or even bad nights where the "dice" aren't on your side. It would be nice to get something impressive, like a hundred thousand swings worth of data.
2) Some mobs have abilities (e.g. spells) which, when up, removes their dodge chance. Any parse used to determine the dodge rate will need to remove these from the dataset.
3) Trash mobs and level <73 boss adds will have a lower dodge chance than bosses. These would need to be removed from the dataset.
4) Windfury and auto attacks should have the same dodge chance, and I believe that Stormstrike as well. This means that results of all attacks can be merged together for the purposes of determining dodge chance.
#7894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
4) Windfury and auto attacks should have the same dodge chance, and I believe that Stormstrike as well. This means that results of all attacks can be merged together for the purposes of determining dodge chance.
If Stormstrike is comparable to Mutilate I'm pretty certain that only one of the two attacks it makes can fail to connect, or in other words, if the main hand strike hits, the off-hand strike will automatically hit as well. That'd skew the numbers a bit, since you'd get double Stormstrike hits recorded for each succesful Stormstrike, but only one dodge recorded for a dodged Stormstrike.
#7895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by automatica View Post
The only time you should find yourself healing on ZJ would be during lynx phase when he focuses on cloth wearers. I'll pop a PVP mana potion if necessary and use SR around 27% to get back to full in that 7%. If you're doing more healing than this, you should have a talk with your healers. =)
Oh believe me, I have talked to them many times. The problem is that my guild isn't big/reliable enough to have a 10-man pro ZA team, so instead we take the first 10 people who fit the raid slots. This often leaves us with 1 good/geared healer and 2 baddies. It's enough to clear, but the rest of us are definitely picking up the slack.

I generally want to play at as pro a level as possible, regardless of the shortcomings of my fellow raiders, so any information that I can bring to the raid with me is helpful. Whether or not faster weapons will regen more mana during SR, for example :P
#7896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yo!
Checking if a coin is fair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Assuming that we know definetly that dodge chance is < 10% (therefore E<0.3*Z/sqrt(n), n<0,09*(Z/E)^2):
Total number of proper strikes (white + WF for shamans, white + sinister strikes for rogues) that are needed to determine dodge chance with maximum error of 0,001 (that is 5.7% instead of 5.6% for example) with 95,45% level of confidence = 360,000...
10,000 strikes with same level of confidence provide 0,6% maximum error and that is not acceptable (6% dodge found with 10,000 means it can actually be 5.4% or 6.6%)
100,00 hits provide 0,19% maximum error.
Approximately 13 long (BT) parses with 4-5 dpsers and removed trash and casting (non-dodging) bosses statistics are needed for 360,00 strikes.
Any dodge% reduced by expertise that players have (orcs+axes, gear, talents) has to be added as additional # of dodges for the combined record (if rogue performed 10,000 strikes with 2.5% dodge reduction - add 250 dodges).

Last edited by Yo! : 03/15/08 at 2:37 PM.
#7897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
Is there anything special that happens around level 70, or would a level 57 tested against level 60 mobs give the same results?

If a level57 could work, we should find someone with a level57 shaman, pop him into DM north, and have him hit the level 60 spirits in there for 24 hours.
#7898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Veric
Crusade Card

Does the Crusade Card's effects both stack at same time? If they do wouldnt that add 120ap and 80sp, now if mental quickness is talented(like it should be) wouldnt that then convery 30% of add ap to more sp? It would make the card add 120ap and 120sp which is a phenomal sp increase, both effects are easily kept up in an FS/ES rotation, and would greatly benefit personal overall dps. The additional SP would increase FS ticks damage dependent to SP at time of cast, while this would take a full minute to reach this effect, it would still be increasingly large during longer fights, please comment back on this. i have not tested this effect yet as im still collecting cards.
#7899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Read.The.Thread.

Or at least search in it. The card is less good than it looks because of our high spell miss rate. One shock resist and your spelldamage stacks will fall off.
#7900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nightowl@KJ
Hi guys,
need some help here ;-)

the last days i compared my Dragonstrike & Vanirs Right Fist of Brutality, using Yo!´s simulator several times...

To my surprise Dargonstrike was everytime ~10 dps better than the new fist.

This shocked me a little bit, because after reading this thread i thougt the two new fists, are the best choice
for shamans behind the Season3 weapons...

In my Opinion there are 3 solutions:

1. My gear (ssc,heroic badges) is to bad to support vanirs right fist correctly.

2. I´m too stupid to use Yo´s sim correctly

3. Dragonstrike is really better, but only at fights where you don´t move too much
and are able to take advantage of the haste proc every time...

Last edited by Nightowl@KJ : 03/16/08 at 11:42 AM.
#7901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nightowl@KJ View Post
Hi guys,
need some help here ;-)
the last days i compared my Dragonstrike & Vanirs Right Fist of Brutality, using Yo!´s simulator several times...
To my surprise Dargonstrike was everytime ~10 dps better than the new fist.
Used your stats from armory to compare 2 brutality fists with dragonstrike+brutality. All default buffs, added crusade as static 120 ap, orc racial selected. Dragonstrike+brutality earned 1225 dps, 2 fists 1227 so with this settings they are almost identical. Buffs that you have can change which one comes first alot.
#7902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
In preparation for the upcoming patch, I decided to do some weapon comparisons with the sim as well, and found some similar results. The actual DPS numbers seem a little high to me even for theoretical, but I was adding in some raid debuffs that I don't always have but probably will going forward (like CoR), so that could easily account for some of it. I also assumed that I had a [Shard of Contempt] (proc assumed to be ~90 AP passive). Everything is kept the same between attempts other than weapon information (double Mongoose on all, though), and modifying other stats based on stats that come on each weapon.

[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1499
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1501

[Dragonstrike] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1513
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1528

The difference between the first two is 2 DPS, while there's a 15 DPS difference between them when I upgrade my S2 OH to the badge OH. I'm sort of puzzled by this. I did all the calculations several times to make sure that I was modifying AP, crit, hit, and haste properly. I could understand a slight increase in preference for Vanir's MH when using the Vanir's OH due to better overall stats compared to Merc Glad's. Is it possible that it's a result of the DS proc messing with OH WF proc chances on a 2.5 speed weapon, and it's just not a problem with a 2.6 speed, so what I'm actually seeing is DS pushing down the potential DPS of Vanir's, instead of inflating that of the Merc Glad's OH?

[edited for typo in an item link]
#7903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zula
Hello.

my group is usually composed by

War dps
rogue
rogue
Shammo enha (hi mom)
hunter\dudu or ret pala


usually i love to have ret pala instead of hunter\dudu

which is the best composition which all these? and why my rogues use venom instead of windfury? are venom > WF?
#7904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malan
Just checked in at LootRank.com for some stuff and they are now supporting filtering of weapon types by speed.
#7905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Zula View Post
Hello.
my group is usually composed by

War dps
rogue
rogue
Shammo enha (hi mom)
hunter\dudu or ret pala

usually i love to have ret pala instead of hunter\dudu

which is the best composition which all these? and why my rogues use venom instead of windfury? are venom > WF?
Group choice from your personal view:
1. Feral
2. Hunter / Ret

But having the Ret in your group is the best choice for his personal dps (Ret without a wf totem is as good as a dps warrior without it..) and putting feral and hunter in another group together should regulary give you the best result.

Are your rogues all mutilate? Only with that specc it could be preferable for them to chose poison over windfury. But without having agilty totem it's a absolute wrong choise. Only poison plus agility totem can compete with wf.
#8101SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Got both a [Shard of Contempt] and [Mounting Vengeance] last night.

Ended gemming it with 10 str twice, stupid that it's a blue gem or I surely would have tried to get the relatively decent socket bonus.
Also, I enchanted it with Mongoose and to my great disappointment it doesn't glow
#8102SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Boneshaman
I see that other people have posted that they've noticed a increase in the amount of mana being used during fights, has any been able to figure out whats going on here? I've been able to raid without ever really worrying about going OOM before patch 2.4, but last night I found myself using mana pots that I keep around for when I'm needed for specing resto.
#8103SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Yeah, I actually went OOM on our Kalecgos kill. I just shrugged it off and put it down to having to redrop totems a lot more on that fight. Weird, though. I drop them just as often on Illidari Council and I've never gone OOM there pre-patch.
#8104SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Brum
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
Ah yes, nice data there:

A few notes: aatimefor3 needs the hasted speed of both weapons (e.g. for 2.8/2.6 with flurry only) it is ((2.8+2.6)/(1.3*4))*3

The wf proc rate is 36% (we assume one possible wf proc which could be done by either hand)

and your dodge should be 1-dodge (i assumed that a few lines above the calc for simplicity)

So for example:

=1 - (1- B18)^(3+ 2 * (1-B19) * (1 - (1-0,36)^(B28/3)) + 2*B19*(B28/10))

whith b28 being the new flurried aatimefor3.

I editited a few entries and your avg weighted diff is now 0.319


Same thing on your servants tests with the corrected equation (especially the dodge) the uptime is 87%

You actually are a bit more hasted for the servants, due to faster attack speed after parry.
Ah thanks. 3% is pretty close
#8105SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Malan
Anecdotal of course, but I haven't' had any trouble with SR at all since 2.4, in heroic Magisters last night it was returning over 700 mana per proc when I glanced at my combat log, I had a full mana bar in half the buff time.
#8106SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0frozndevl
I've also noticed my mana dropping much faster than previously. The only thing I can think of is since the GCD is up faster, I am not skipping as many shocks as I would when twisting. We ran Kara last night and though we ran it faster than we normally do, 2h45m for my guild, I used mana pots a few times on Prince and Netherspite when I have never needed to before.
#8107SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Jebes
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.

Last edited by Jebes : 03/27/08 at 2:32 PM. Reason: s/dropping/being used/
#8108SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zealoz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
This is pretty basic. If a mob is under CC when you drop the totem, its not a valid target as long as it remains CCd. If the CC breaks, or if you dropped the totem prior to the CC being used, those mobs are valid targets and the searing can and will break it. Its not nearly as bad as it used to be when it would indiscriminately attack anything, but you can still manage to break CC with now.
Please don't take this for anything but an observation at this point. But last night in BT. After hearing of the changes to chain lightning not jumping to CC'ed targets, I was doing some testing with searing totem during the trash pulls up to Teron. I was dropping the totem before the trash was pulled and before CC's went out. Never once had the totem attack and break a CC'ed target. Going to confirm with WWS tonight and post either a retraction or the log showing.

Perhaps I got lucky, or perhaps this was an undocumented change with 2.4
#8109SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0SpottedCowz
The Claw of Molten Fury MH from Hyjal is kind of ass. It's strictly worse than Syphon as far as a MH goes (of course), and I was previously using Syphon MH and Fool's Bane(87.5DPS 2.6 speed) from Kara as my OH. I moved Syphon to OH and mained the Claw, then checked the Yo's simulator to see what kind of difference we were talking. Removing the enchants from the equation, I got ~roughly~ the same DPS either way. It looks like the Syphon/FB is actually slightly better than the CMF/Syphon combo. That's pretty sad. MH trash drop that doesn't increase my DPS from the Kara drop that I was using? Frankly, I'm a little irritated that I wasted the DKP on the claw. Don't get me wrong, it looks awesome, and I get a lot of comments on it, but still...
#8110SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0frozndevl
Originally Posted by Jebes View Post
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.
I tried to find some other information and there was a thread over on the official forums that discusses the change to mana regen. I am only posting this because it can have an adverse effect on our overall dps output if it requires a change to twisting or shocking.

WoW Forums -> Mana Regen - 2.4

This links to the following image. http://www.wowwiki.com/images/6/6b/O...are_Priest.png

Even though the graph is kind of rough, it does make sense and what Jebes says matches. I have approximately 150 spirit and int and according to the graph I would have less mana regeneration in 2.4. Nothing we can do about it besides increasing our spirit and int, but I still don't think it is as much of an impact and I don't foresee many changing their itemization based on this.
#8111SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Shalas
Originally Posted by Jebes View Post
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.
Even without twisting, an Enh Shaman should be spending very close to zero time out of the 5SR. With 6 second shocks, SS and shock cooldowns align such that you get one regen tick about once a minute. With 5 second shocks, it never happens.
#8112SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Malan
Originally Posted by Zealoz View Post
Perhaps I got lucky, or perhaps this was an undocumented change with 2.4
You were probably lucky, the totem should always try to attack the nearest target first (till its dead or out of range).
#8113SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Unaz
The change with SR isn't making it so that we don't fill up when we use it (except in high mobility situations.) I tick for over 1k with it raid buffed, so that's not the issue. It's the extra 15 seconds of not being mana capped.

Before we would have 30 seconds of infinite mana, ending at full, followed by 90 seconds of normal usage.

Now we have 15 seconds of infinite mana, usually ending at full, followed by 105 seconds of normal usage.

Assuming your shocks average at 150 mana (due to Shamanistic Focus), and in about a 7 second window, that would be about 15 shocks out of SR.

2250 mana

Stormstrike is every 10 seconds at about 220 mana I think. Which would be about 11 stormstrikes in the window.

2420 mana + 2250 = ~4670 used. Which is about a 2k window for error raid buffed.

Which is fine for the most part. And why I only used a couple mana pots. Any inefficiency (twisting totems as well, refreshing outside of SR) makes that margin for error mighty small. I'm not saying this is perfect usage, as typically you will have less shocks, but if you're twisting you use more as well.

The short version is you have about a 2k mana margin of error, and if you don't end your SR at full due to mobility or otehr reasons, you're more likely to run up against it. And when you start using expensive totems like elementals or bloodlusting, you can push it even further.

It's not game breaking, but it can be a factor where it previously wasn't. It does make the use of SR a bit more strategic, and I'll probably be unbinding my trinkets from it soon so I can continue to use them every cooldown while saving SR for when I really need it.
#8114SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rmagic16
Question about relic totems and trinkets

I am a troll enhancement shaman playing both pvp and pve

I am debating wither or not to get Totem of the Astral Winds or Stonebreaker's Totem. I have read that Stonebreak's totem is better then Astral but is this a pvp or pve relic. If these are for pve, is there a better Relic totem to get for pvp? If so please link me to it.

The next question is focused more on trinkets. There is a list of trinkets in the first post that shows the best trinkets in descending order. However are these also primarily for pve? Are there better ones specifically for pvp? If so what is the best 2 for pvp (link me)?

Thanks,
Rugal
#8115SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Krom[Fenris]
Did a BT clear last night and didn't have any mana problems, except when I was supposed to, namely Bloodboil fight because I'm usually trying to hold out on SR for if I get Fel Raged. I still don't like the SR change, but mostly because there were some cases where I'd rely on having 30 seconds of reduced damage (Blade Fury pulls for instance).

Going back into SP tonight, will see how it goes mana-wise.
#8191SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff) = 0.38uptime or 88ep

Thanks for noticing my oblivious mistake.
#8192SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Macar
Originally Posted by Lethnon View Post
I have a quick question....

The main page states:

"However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration."

I am getting SSC/TK/T5 geared, and I am saving badges for the fists (I admit, I suck at PVP). Obviously I will be re-enchanting my weapons. But I couldn't find any mention of the value of Armor Pen that would be necessary, and I am a bit confused because later the main page says:

"At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable."

So, how do I determine the crossover point for a double mongoose vs. an executioner/mongoose? And, assuming the latter, which one would be the preferred on the MH?
Use Yo!'s simulator.
#8193SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Paksenarrion
Macros

If i have missed this at any point i am sorry.
And i suck at macro making


First of let me say that the Totem Twist macro on the front page aint working for me.
But now for my question. Is there anyway to make the totem twist macro show like a countdown on the Agi totem.

So after i press it the 2nd time to replace WF with AGi that it starts counting down so i see when to twist again. Or even just send me a /w or something
#8194SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Well, with my values Expertise has a value of 3.38.

(3.38 * 44) + 88 = 236.72. Considering the best next trinket is 160 AEP (DST) I'd say it is pretty damned good.
#8195SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Absolutely. It gives you AMAZING amount of expertise. It's just below your cap, so this means that with just one heroic, you're halfway capped with expertise. I mean, it's so big, it's noticeable.

Paksenarrion, if the macro isn't working for you, you could always download an addon that gives you timers for it. DisqoDice has a universal twist macro- it doesn't "care" if you're twisting with agility or with tranquil air totem, or with even spell dmg(tho why would you twist with spell dmg is beyond me, this is just an example).

Then again, I suppose one less bar on your screen would make it more clear, so you could always wait for more information about your problem with the macro.
#8196SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nemaa
With Shard os Contempt, Belt of One Hundred Deaths and a gloves from Al'ar I managed to reach -5.5% dodge. During yesterday's Felmyst tries for about 6 hours 1.1% of my attacks were dodged. That sounds bosses have more than 5.6% dodge. So we need 103 expertise rating to reach the cap, right?
#8197SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bellante
Originally Posted by Paksenarrion View Post
First of let me say that the Totem Twist macro on the front page aint working for me.
Doesn't work for me either, I just have shift+mousewheelup = WF, shift+mousewheeldown = Agi, fairly easy to control. Oh, and Disqodice ofc.
#8198SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Yo!
+ Added simulation for 6 most popular "on use" trinkets
+ Added Darkmoon Card: Wrath (reports uptime for at least 1 crit stack)
+ Added Darkmoon Card: Crusade (reports uptime for at least 1 spell stack)
+ Added Shard of Contempt as 10% for +230 ap for 20 sec outside 45 sec hidden cooldown
+ Added Improved Sancity Aura to buffs page
+ Added 3 static food alternatives
+ Added Stormchops! (to test its synergy with Elemental Devastation and/or Wrath Card - suprisingly it outperforms +20 str food sometimes) - adds to shocks in report
+ Re-enabled Drums (select how many drums are being played over 2 minutes - 4 means constant +80 haste rating)
+ Fixed bug with ranks 1&2 of Elemental Devastation
+ Fixed bug with dual-wielding miss chance being used when not dual-wielding
+ Fixed bug with Roasted Clefthoof providing no benefit

Have a question - zone 5% buff, pala 2% aura, hunter's ferocious inspiration - do they affect Searing Totem damage?
#8199SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Malan
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Have a question - zone 5% buff, pala 2% aura, hunter's ferocious inspiration - do they affect Searing Totem damage?
Zone buffs only work in 5 mans, so I'm not sure I see the point of implementing them.
#8200SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bragor
So did anybody start using instant ghost wolf in most encounters ?

Been using it like a nut case on Kalegcos to run faster to the portals & Really saved my butt a few times.
#8201SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bargle
Here's a log from Illidari Council last night w/ Shard of Contempt.
Wow Web Stats

14 Shard procs (2 shaman heroisms) for ~40.8% uptime.
Kyawwin also had 14 shard procs (1 shaman heroism) for ~41.1% uptime.
#8202SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
frozndevl
This is a question or two about comparing the results of Yo!'s sim to actual in game results, and yes, I do understand that the simulator is best case scenario which never quite happens. Using the sim, I get somewhere around 1250-1300dps in my results; I have just been accepting the default buffs while changing to Agility Elixirs, no pots, and adding 1 drum rotation. My paperdoll is a bit messed up as I was wearing all my Karazhan and Zul'Aman gear for kicks when I logged out last night. Off the top of my head I've got unbuffed stats of

1490ap
29.2% crit
110 hit rating
7% haste
252 Armor Penetration
S1 Gladiator Axes with Mongoose
Hourglass, Abacus for trinkets
~240str and ~230agil

I've only recently started 25-mans and have successfully run Gruul, Mag (pre- and post- nerf), and an unsuccesful Void Reaver last week. In these fights the highest sustained DPS I've been able to manage is 800. I'm a clicker on Mag and melee is always running in and out on VR, so I can see why those would be lower. My shock rotation is a bit off as it is reflect to still use ES whenever cooldown is up, and I am twisting which slows down some usage of other abilities. I am also holding off on my SS if it is within 2-3 seconds.

We are going to give Lurker a try this week and...

1) Is this sort of dropoff from sim to reality customary?
2) Is lurker a better indicator or not because of the adds?
3) Is my sim result just completely off?

Last edited by frozndevl : 03/31/08 at 11:59 AM.
#8203SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Pitbuller
/cast [nostance] Ghost Wolf
Spammable macro.
Its only use ghost wolf if you are regualar form. In ghost wolf form it do nothing.
No wasted mana or gCD and never accident cancel form.
I use it when running between trash mobs in sunwell or when I have to catch portal.
By the way its reset swing timer.

I would say that 0/45/16 with improved ghost wolf is new cookie cutter spec.



Edit: Thanks Bren, /cast [nostance, outdoors] Ghost Wolf
I didnt want to add all modiefier that I use myself. I just wanted it look simple.
Same button can also be your land/fly mount button but this is other section stuff.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 03/31/08 at 1:07 PM.
#8204SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
Well doing MH yesterday with instant ghostwolf was really nice, running after all those adds becomes quite enjoyable.
Also running away with doom is so easy I got boered waiting for death.

For me it's really a nice skill and well 2% decreased dodge rate won't kill me that often.
#8205SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0ChaguraED
Yo!'s Sim - Darkmoon Card: Crusade

Quick question,

With the addition of Darkmoon Card: Crusade to Yo!'s Sim, should I not be adding it's 120AP to my base stats now?

I tested with and without and it appears to add the 120AP on it's own now, I just wanted to confirm.

Thanks
#8476SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Buanna
100% haste means you get 100% more attacks in the same unit time.

If you normally got 20 swings in 20 seconds and some how managed to gain 100% haste, you'd get 40 swings in 20 seconds; a 100% increase in swings.
#8477SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Daler
Originally Posted by Wolfhand View Post
Okay, now I'm confused again. Am I wrong in thinking putting %100 into that formula would mean

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (2) ?

That is to say, having 100% haste is only 50% of base attack rate? That's what I initially thought it was until a contradicting situation came up(flurry/dragonspine haste/BL cut my base attack rate by more than 50%, and this combination is not 100% haste).

Can someone explain how this formula works in context?
If I remember correctly, % haste modifiers are separately multiplicative and plain haste rating (passive and procs) is additive.

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (1 + Haste % modifiers) / (1 + Haste rating/15.67/100)

So the above gear set would yield: NEW_SPEED = 3.5 / 1.3 / 1.3 / (1 + 762/15.76/100) = 1.4 secs

The problem with the first post in this discussion is that all haste effects were treated additively, which I'm fairly certain isn't the case.
#8478SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Hedin
Why you think that 2.6 sec = SPEED?! It's Swing Time!
Speed=1/Swing_Time
Haste effects Speed like New_speed=Old_speed*Haste
So New_Swing_Time=Old_Swing_Time/Haste
where Haste=(1+Haste_from_flurry)*(1+Haste_from_largest_nonself_modifier)*(1+Haste_rating/15.67/100)
#8479SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
Allright, I think I get it.

So if you had say, a 3.0 speed weapon and 52% haste from gear, then

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / (1.52) = 1.97, and while the swing time has been cut by something closer to 33% the amount of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe using this weapon increases by 52%.

Adding in Flurry,

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / ((1.52) * (1.3)) = 1.51, the swing time has been cut nearly in half, increasing the number of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe by 97-98%.

I just interpreted what %haste meant incorrectly the first time, then. Thanks a lot, everyone!
#8480SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Malan
I have 4% haste from armor items.
Hasted Speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.04) = 2.5

I have 50% haste from items.
Hasted speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.5) = 1.73

Here's another way to look at it.

2.0sec / swing = 30 swing/min
30 swing/min * 1.3 = 39 swing/min
60 seconds/min / 39 swing/min = 1.538 seconds / swing

The easiest way to look at haste is that it is increasing the number of swings per minute that you can have. 50% haste isn't really reducing your swing timer per se (inded there are values of haste% where your swing timer won't match up with the value!) its increasing your number of attacks in a minute by 50%. The system that blizzard is using ensures that you can never reach a 0 attack speed.

Last edited by Malan : 04/11/08 at 9:40 AM.
#8481SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deetz
Alright for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] i found out the proc rate, its about every 40-45seconds or so, and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] procs a lot more, about about every 30-35seconds or so (i spent a good 45min testing this out myself) And sorta in a way i think the expertise one is better because of the proc of gaining more hits, over the instant damage......but just for second thoughts what do you all think? :P
#8482SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Malan
That's not the proc rate, you're observing the cooldown on the proc. We need to know at what rate it procs when not on cooldown, that requires a long log file.
#8483SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1kelben
Shrug - tell me how to take a log file for this proc, and i'll submit it. Oh i'm still needing a good place to test it... no more doc boom since I'm melee now.

edit: WoW Combat Log Parser is this the mod I should use?
#8484SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Abakus
Procc Rate Determination is easy in Blasted Lands.
Just fight Servants of xxx, unless you follow the quest line, they are invincible and do not hit that hard.
#8485SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhagok
I have a question about twisting with the new mechanic of being able to destroy single totems. How would a macro look like that would be for twisting which would destroy the current air totem before placing a new one? Or well simply the Macro code for the destruction of the air totem would suffice, I think I can work out the rest myself ^^

Anyway I think it would help sustain twisting after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change. I for one got me 2 full stacks of Demonic Runes as of now to sustain full twisting on Brutallus.
#8486SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shipo
The command is something like /totemdestroy(totem nr) but it won't help with twisting due to the fact that it will simply kill the totem, not recall it. We dont get any mana back if we kill it .

Untill they change the destroy mechanic casting the new totem will still be better.

PS: found it after a few more google atempts.


/run DestroyTotem(#)

Replace # with 1-4 (1 being Earth, and so on).
#8487SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Malan
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change
Say what?
#8488SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Jessamy
On my shaman, I get a lot of mp5 mana regen from Water Shield and Mana Spring totem. Shamanistic Rage is a nice button to push. In a raid environment shadow priest vampirism or paladin JoW & BoW also help. As far as I know, none of these have changed with 2.4.

On my holy priest, the new int / spir synergy has given me a significant increase to spirit-based mana regen, both I5SR & OO5SR. This makes my /stopcasting macro even more fun and useful for long encounters. None of this was really relevant to my shaman, and as far as I know still isn't.

So unless I'm missing something, shaman (any spec) didn't lose any mana regen with the patch, but perhaps didn't gain as much as a priest, druid, or mage did. A relative loss, I suppose.
#8489SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
I guess he referring to the natural regen outside 5s rule. In that we might have lost i guess.

Blizzard hotfixed SSO exalted necklace. Can it still be dodged, parried and etc. or they fixed that too beside proc problem?
#8490SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Malan
If you are outside the 5 second rule as an enhancement shaman, you're doing it wrong.